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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
not rly seeing the catastrophic econ consequence for adjusting to GW energy policy for advanced economies. we are not talking about overnigt banning of fossil fuel here.
problem is in the lower tech economies that consume vast quantities of GW energy at low efficiency, and whose products in turn are consumed by advanced econs. question is whether west can leverage their market purchasing power to change the situation in china india etc.
taking the cynical view that multinationals will always go to lower cost, energy efficiency be damned, govts might nevertheless insist on some sort of carbon efficiency standard on yheir consumer market as a way of protecting domestic producers from unfair burden of carbon cost put on them but not on ovrseas competitors.
so in this way green is another protectionism
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It's not much of a party issue. Gas taxes are unpopular so both D's and R's try to gain votes by opposing them. Liberals on this thread argued against raising the gas tax.
Edit:As a friendly reminder of what happens when you do this locally and not federally Show nested quote +In a statement, the Independence Hall Tea Party, a Philadelphia-based group, encouraged drivers to fill up in Delaware, Maryland, New Jersey and elsewhere in order to “spoil the plans of our elected tax collectors.”
I bet that had about as big of an impact as an email chain letter.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
gas tax is a no brainer, especially for big cities. not sure who's against it in this thread?
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On May 20 2014 10:40 JonnyBNoHo wrote:It's not much of a party issue. Gas taxes are unpopular so both D's and R's try to gain votes by opposing them. Liberals on this thread argued against raising the gas tax.
Huh? I am utterly confused. Just the word 'tax' get a reflexive antagonism from conservatives and Republicans unparalleled by Democrats...
Let alone if you put the word 'energy, gas, or carbon' in front of it. Pretty much the only phrases with tax in it that gets Republican approval at the congressional or constituent level are 'Tax reduction', 'Tax reform' or 'Flat tax'. (All three are essentially the same thing in many of their minds anyway)
Who is it that you think was against a gas tax? (pretty sure you imagined this person?)
Perhaps you missed my previous question, so I'll ask again:
Is gas the only energy you want to raise taxes on?
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We should be talking diesel taxes not just regular gas. its the semis that do the damage to local roads that need the money not the compacts that don't weight much.
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On May 20 2014 11:35 Sermokala wrote:
We should be talking diesel taxes not just regular gas. its the semis that do the damage to local roads that need the money not the compacts that don't weight much.
That's part of what I was trying to get out of Jonny. It appears he may have been trying to play some rhetorical game that backfired on him. But we'll see if he responds to my question he skipped once already and/or the other one I and others have asked already.
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On May 20 2014 11:35 Sermokala wrote:
We should be talking diesel taxes not just regular gas. its the semis that do the damage to local roads that need the money not the compacts that don't weight much.
Yeah tax the shit out of truck drivers cause they don't have enough lame hoops to jump through courtesy of the government. Not like 99.9% of everything we buy is at somepoint delivered by truck. Taxing them to death seems like a great way to jumpstart the economy. While were at it lets ban trains till they all run on solar. Then add HOV lanes to really help fight glob- climate change
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On May 20 2014 11:35 Sermokala wrote:
We should be talking diesel taxes not just regular gas. its the semis that do the damage to local roads that need the money not the compacts that don't weight much.
As well as buses...
Really though, regular gas taxes should have been keeping up with inflation.
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We (USA) already tax gasoline quite heavily. And diesel more than gas.
http://www.api.org/oil-and-natural-gas-overview/industry-economics/fuel-taxes/gasoline-tax］ http://www.api.org/oil-and-natural-gas-overview/industry-economics/fuel-taxes/gasoline-tax[/url]
Exaclty how heavy of a tax are you guys proposing, and do you think it would actually make people give up their cars? Remember that in our culture a car means freedom, it will take a bit to get people to move on.
And is there any information on how effective public transportation is at slowing carbon emmissions? Are we talking about a 30% decrease in emmsions if say 1 in 4 people (or w/e) left their car in the garage or a 0.001% decrease?
Simply put, would rasing taxes on fossil fuel based energy be advantageous enough to warrant the hassle of getting them in place? Remember we would still be burning fossil fuels to some degree anyway, so the tax can't be a total fix.
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On May 20 2014 12:28 gargantotang wrote:
Exaclty how heavy of a tax are you guys proposing, and do you think it would actually make people give up their cars? Remember that in our culture a car means freedom, it will take a bit to get people to move on.
I have the feeling that whenever someone wants to make a reasonable change in the US the "but muh freedom" hurdle is the hardest hurdle to overcome. the universal knockdown argument against anything from taxes to school curricula.
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On May 20 2014 12:28 gargantotang wrote:We (USA) already tax gasoline quite heavily. And diesel more than gas. http://www.api.org/oil-and-natural-gas-overview/industry-economics/fuel-taxes/gasoline-tax］ http://www.api.org/oil-and-natural-gas-overview/industry-economics/fuel-taxes/gasoline-taxExaclty how heavy of a tax are you guys proposing, and do you think it would actually make people give up their cars? Remember that in our culture a car means freedom, it will take a bit to get people to move on. And is there any information on how effective public transportation is at slowing carbon emmissions? Are we talking about a 30% decrease in emmsions if say 1 in 4 people (or w/e) left their car in the garage or a 0.001% decrease? Simply put, would rasing taxes on fossil fuel based energy be advantageous enough to warrant the hassle of getting them in place? Remember we would still be burning fossil fuels to some degree anyway, so the tax can't be a total fix.
I think the common opinion is at least raising them to where they would be with inflation is a no-brainer, after that it gets a bit more reasonably contentious.
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Raising the cost of getting to work (or for truck drivers, getting to and while working) is a brilliant idea. Keep it up guys ^.^
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You are right. Let's have a gas subsidy instead. Everyone gets gas for $1 per gallon.
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On May 20 2014 12:56 Roswell wrote:
Raising the cost of getting to work (or for truck drivers, getting to and while working) is a brilliant idea. Keep it up guys ^.^
Have you bothered to do the math of how much that rise in cost would be for average drivers?
Left leaners are in favor of one but they don't see it as a silver bullet or the only solution it's just the closest thing to something reasonable a conservative has suggested, so as predicted, left leaners are happy to get even such a small concession.
If the right had any serious interest in solutions and not just empty rhetoric, perhaps there would be more/better options being discussed.
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On May 20 2014 13:01 IgnE wrote:
You are right. Let's have a gas subsidy instead. Everyone gets gas for $1 per gallon.
Nah you got it wrong. Increase the subsidies on gas/oil companies for the trickle-down effect.
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On May 20 2014 12:41 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2014 12:28 gargantotang wrote:
Exaclty how heavy of a tax are you guys proposing, and do you think it would actually make people give up their cars? Remember that in our culture a car means freedom, it will take a bit to get people to move on.
I have the feeling that whenever someone wants to make a reasonable change in the US the "but muh freedom" hurdle is the hardest hurdle to overcome. the universal knockdown argument against anything from taxes to school curricula. Similarly, "but I said it's reasonable" doesn't simply make it so. These things are deeply regressive and hurt trucking communities and long-commute suburban communities. We must match goals against costs and justify the added expense to the consumer (or necessity of the revenue for spending projects). Just because gas taxes beat CAFE standards for achieving certain goals doesn't mean the goals in and of themselves justify the costs to get there.
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Raise wages and gas taxes.
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On May 20 2014 13:05 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2014 12:56 Roswell wrote:
Raising the cost of getting to work (or for truck drivers, getting to and while working) is a brilliant idea. Keep it up guys ^.^ Have you bothered to do the math of how much that rise in cost would be for average drivers? Left leaners are in favor of one but they don't see it as a silver bullet or the only solution it's just the closest thing to something reasonable a conservative has suggested, so as predicted, left leaners are happy to get even such a small concession. If the right had any serious interest in solutions and not just empty rhetoric, perhaps there would be more/better options being discussed.
Solutions for what exactly?
Gas prices are already demon high, there is no way raising them even more is a good idea.
California taxes their drivers to hell and back and they have some of the worst roads in the country. In parts of LA they are too cheap to actually tear up and redo the street so they just pave over by a few iches every few years and so now the streets are as high as the curbs and so to make sure there is still curbs they plop new ones on top of the bottom curbs. And the taxes for drivers dont even go into roads they just get sucked into other projects. Dont tell me raising taxes on effing gasoline, (at any point in the cycle,) is going to help anything. Might make the people who like the smell of their own farts feel a little better though. The one good thing that has come about is more fuel efficient cars. Thats a win win. But enough of these good intention plans.
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EPT![[image loading]](https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/72070179/trans.PNG)
