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On November 16 2012 02:10 m4inbrain wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2012 02:07 Goozen wrote:On November 16 2012 02:04 m4inbrain wrote:On November 16 2012 02:01 Goozen wrote:On November 16 2012 01:57 Leporello wrote:On November 16 2012 01:53 Goozen wrote:On November 16 2012 01:46 Op wrote:On November 16 2012 01:40 Goozen wrote:On November 16 2012 01:35 Gorsameth wrote:On November 16 2012 01:32 Goozen wrote:
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First of all, since the Israeli withdrawal there is no occupation of land around Gaza. Secondly, firing rockets in to a civilian populace wont accomplish "disruption" only terrorizing the population. You realize that the very house your sitting in can technically be considered Palestinian land right? Not saying the resolution of this conflict lies in that but that is the way it is seen by a lot of Palestinians. And me living is also a offence to people who believe that, but that is irrelevant for this discussion as Hamas have never talked to Israel about peace (we only recognize the PLO) but the rockets Hamas fired would gain them nothing, Its also kind of a dumb mover when Gaza gets their water and electric supply from Israel Would be great if Israel could make peace with the PLO, maybe just for the west-bank part. This will show Israel's commitment to peace, and might lead Hamas to also re-think their strategy once lives start to improve on the West-Bank This is a very, very complex issue and i prefer that this topic stays on topic instead of what usually happens in these threads. This line seems to come up in every attack from/against Israel. It is a complex issue, and yet every attack, both sides claim it's just a simple matter of self-defense against a recent attack. The idea that this topic is isolated in this week's events is its own form of bias. You can't ignore the settlement-encroachments, just as you can't ignore the constant rocket attacks from Gaza. All these things matter, and neither side can really claim a clear moral right to its use of violence. its a micro/macro thing, there is obviously a link but you need to separate the 2 things as sometimes you discuss the micro without the macro. However i think that the bombing of the ammunition depots is a clear moral right. As an israeli who is defending the actions of his government, you should not talk about moral rights, mate. So it a black/white thing then? i cant say that attacking weapon depots is moral without saying everything they do is? This whole issue is far from black/white and its foolish to try and make it so. I thought about adding my personal opinion to my posting, should've done it. Of course im not fine with these ammo-depots or shooting rockets at civilians. But then again, feel free to explain to me reasonable (and ffs, unbiased) why they do that. Maybe i miss something. And yeah, its not black and white. It's red in all it's tones, from all the innocent blood that is on the hands of your government and the hamas etc. So don't act like you're on a moral high ground, because you are not. Israel is not.
In comparison to whom? From my experience i can tell you that there is a serious effort done to minimize civilian deaths more so then the US, Russia, England, etc. Not to mention this a-symmetric warfare that make it even more difficult. However my government (just like yours) puts its own civilians ahead of those of other nations. So i dont feel the need to be ashamed.
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On November 16 2012 02:15 bonse wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2012 02:04 m4inbrain wrote:
Edit: there's nothing wrong in taking out ammo-depots, not even morally. But if you need to do it because you actually forced these things to be built in the first place, you should reconsider.
It's not Israel that "forced" Hams build ammo-depots. You have to be really stupid to believe that. It's Iran that's financing it, it's the Muslim Brotherhood ideology that motivates it. It's the intesive hate propaganda that fills up the arab media that make the people support it.
probably also their really shitty lives and the fact that they are only 2 generations removed from being ethnically cleansed of land they imagine was very nice. And as long as they have that, oil money, demographics and technology on their side then Israel is going to constantly face these missile attacks.
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On November 16 2012 02:15 bonse wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2012 02:04 m4inbrain wrote:
Edit: there's nothing wrong in taking out ammo-depots, not even morally. But if you need to do it because you actually forced these things to be built in the first place, you should reconsider.
It's not Israel that "forced" Hams build ammo-depots. You have to be really stupid to believe that. It's Iran that's financing it, it's the Muslim Brotherhood ideology that motivates it. It's the intesive hate propaganda that fills up the arab media that make the people support it.
The next completely unbiased israeli, i guess.
Again. Feel free to explain why they are there. What they are made for, and why. Change my opinion, im open for that. As for now, isreal is not right. Neither morally nor in any other sense.
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On November 16 2012 02:15 bonse wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2012 02:04 m4inbrain wrote:
Edit: there's nothing wrong in taking out ammo-depots, not even morally. But if you need to do it because you actually forced these things to be built in the first place, you should reconsider.
It's not Israel that "forced" Hams build ammo-depots. You have to be really stupid to believe that. It's Iran that's financing it, it's the Muslim Brotherhood ideology that motivates it. It's the intesive hate propaganda that fills up the arab media that make the people support it.
As discussed by several people before in the chat, the Hamas cause is just from their point of view (and would be for anyone in their situation), so makes for good propaganda.
And now they get free propaganda for their cause because Israel killed palestinian children again (from what I understood there were 1 or 2 in the car)...
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Egyptian visit to Gaza
Al-Jazeera is reporting that Egypt's prime minister, Hesham Qandil, is to lead an Egyptian delegation into Gaza tomorrow as an act of solidarity with the Palestinians.
The Egyptians may have calculated that such a move will necessarily force Israel to pause its air assault on the Gaza Strip, and marks a real break from Mubarak-era policy towards Israel, without being openly hostile.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/nov/15/israel-gaza-militants-deadly-exchanges-live
Also, bombing is a completely appropriate term for what amounts to at least 200 israeli air/artillery strikes in Gaza so far.
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Some fact check request, not opinions. So has this escalated from the initial atack?
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On November 16 2012 02:16 Goozen wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2012 02:10 m4inbrain wrote:On November 16 2012 02:07 Goozen wrote:On November 16 2012 02:04 m4inbrain wrote:On November 16 2012 02:01 Goozen wrote:On November 16 2012 01:57 Leporello wrote:On November 16 2012 01:53 Goozen wrote:On November 16 2012 01:46 Op wrote:On November 16 2012 01:40 Goozen wrote:On November 16 2012 01:35 Gorsameth wrote:
[quote]
You realize that the very house your sitting in can technically be considered Palestinian land right?
Not saying the resolution of this conflict lies in that but that is the way it is seen by a lot of Palestinians.
And me living is also a offence to people who believe that, but that is irrelevant for this discussion as Hamas have never talked to Israel about peace (we only recognize the PLO) but the rockets Hamas fired would gain them nothing, Its also kind of a dumb mover when Gaza gets their water and electric supply from Israel Would be great if Israel could make peace with the PLO, maybe just for the west-bank part. This will show Israel's commitment to peace, and might lead Hamas to also re-think their strategy once lives start to improve on the West-Bank This is a very, very complex issue and i prefer that this topic stays on topic instead of what usually happens in these threads. This line seems to come up in every attack from/against Israel. It is a complex issue, and yet every attack, both sides claim it's just a simple matter of self-defense against a recent attack. The idea that this topic is isolated in this week's events is its own form of bias. You can't ignore the settlement-encroachments, just as you can't ignore the constant rocket attacks from Gaza. All these things matter, and neither side can really claim a clear moral right to its use of violence. its a micro/macro thing, there is obviously a link but you need to separate the 2 things as sometimes you discuss the micro without the macro. However i think that the bombing of the ammunition depots is a clear moral right. As an israeli who is defending the actions of his government, you should not talk about moral rights, mate. So it a black/white thing then? i cant say that attacking weapon depots is moral without saying everything they do is? This whole issue is far from black/white and its foolish to try and make it so. I thought about adding my personal opinion to my posting, should've done it. Of course im not fine with these ammo-depots or shooting rockets at civilians. But then again, feel free to explain to me reasonable (and ffs, unbiased) why they do that. Maybe i miss something. And yeah, its not black and white. It's red in all it's tones, from all the innocent blood that is on the hands of your government and the hamas etc. So don't act like you're on a moral high ground, because you are not. Israel is not. In comparison to whom? From my experience i can tell you that there is a serious effort done to minimize civilian deaths more so then the US, Russia, England, etc. Not to mention this a-symmetric warfare that make it even more difficult. However my government (just like yours) puts its own civilians ahead of those of other nations. So i dont feel the need to be ashamed.
Yeah. Thats a load of bullshit, my friend. Maybe russia, i will agree on that (because i don't think that putin cares for either foreign or his own civilians). My government actually backs up israeli gov, thats the reason why i will vote another party next time (well, at least a minor reason, next to many others).
Also, you personally of course don't need to feel ashamed. It's not "you" attacking innocent people. Neither should be israelic soldiers (actually met two of them in my time with the army). But your government should reconsider, they will lose support. Im not saying that hamas is right, or its justified or anything, but im discussing here with you, about the "flaws" of your mindset. If you point me to a hamas/palestine-guy, i will wash his head as well.
As i said. There is no "right" government in this war. Both are in the wrong. Sadly, everyone in my country who criticises your government, is labeled an antisemit by your government (even if jewish historians like Tom Segev disagree), your gov would get way more flak otherwise.
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On November 16 2012 02:11 Leporello wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2012 01:57 Goozen wrote:On November 16 2012 01:54 ThomasjServo wrote:
I don't imagine this will win many friends for Israel with the way the Middle East is shaping up politically. The ice is thin enough, this is just adding weight on top of it. It will make 0 difference, and also as a Israeli i wouldn't want my government to put the safety of its citizens second to international opinion. Again, they're not exclusive of each other. I'm not saying you should go "Gandhi" with Hamas, but to a certain degree, the safety of your citizens and the region as a whole comes from international opinion. If one side of this strife showed genuine prolonged restrain, what would happen? Would they just lose their land and lives while the world watched? Or would their earnest efforts toward peace -- even in the face of violence -- warrant intervention on their behalf? Granted, Israel hasn't needed intervention or world-acceptance, as they have a stark military advantage. But eventually it might be to Israel's benefit to show Hamas' violence would still exist without provocation -- if that is indeed the case. Retaliating at every opportunity has simply not made the situation any more peaceful, and has not made the Israeli position diplomatically appealing or morally clear. If you think Hamas would simply always be your violent enemy, I can't help but wonder how things would be now if you guys never retaliated, and never encroached on Palestinian settlements. Your moral high-ground against continued Hamas violence would be clear. America and Europe would have clear reason to decisively end the situation on Israel's behalf -- and by not retaliating and showing the world the violence you're forced to deal with, you'd be saving lives in the long run. But as it is, there is so much innocent Palestinian suffering, that I, for one, and many others, can not clearly back either side in this conflict. And it just continues.
Well, considering a total of 12,000(!!!) rockets have been fired from Gaza to date i think overall there has been a lot of restraint (true the iron dome defense has helped alot to minimize the damage). Also the loves of around 1 million Israelis has been made hell because of these rockets that although have a low death toll have a high price on the mental state of those effected. The thing is Israel gained nothing from its lack of action, you dont hear on the news "X rockets were fired today and Israel didnt respond" and the population could only take so much.
Internationale relations are based on interests not morals, a example for that would be the lack of action in Syria in contrast to Libya of any of the humanitarian crises of Africa.
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I do not get it. Why do they need to drag the conflict for half a century.
Let one side finally win, and the other perish, it`s not like it happens the first time.
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On November 16 2012 02:23 GoTuNk! wrote:
Some fact check request, not opinions. So has this escalated from the initial atack?
Yes. Attacks on Gaza and on Israel have intensified with reports of rockets near Tel Aviv. Most major newspapers are speculating that a ground invasion of Gaza is at least likely. Guardian summary from about 4 hours ago:
• Israeli airstrikes continued in Gaza today following the attack yesterday that killed Hamas’s military chief Ahmed al-Jabari. The attack came after a series of rocket attacks from Gaza into southern Israel over recent days. The Israeli army said 156 targets were hit in Gaza, 126 of them rocket launchers. Thirteen people were killed in Gaza yesterday including a pregnant woman with twins, an 11-month old boy and two infants, with 130 wounded, according to Gaza’s health ministry. A truce was not on the agenda, Israeli military spokeswoman Avital Leibovitz said. Hamas’s leader, Khaled Meshaal, vowed to “continue the resistance”. Mahmoud Abbas, the Palestinian president, who rules the West Bank but not Gaza, cut short a European trip to return to the West Bank in response to the crisis.
• Three Israelis were killed by a rocket attack from Gaza, the first Israeli fatalities in the present conflict. The deaths came when a four-storey building was hit in the town of Kiryat Malachi, 15 miles (25km) north of Gaza; a four-year-old boy and two babies were also wounded. Israel said 200 rockets had struck Israel since yesterday, 135 since midnight. Eighteen rockets had been shot down today by Israel’s “iron dome” counter-missile missile system, Israel said. Hamas claimed it had fired a one-tonne rocket at Tel Aviv, but there were no reports of an impact in the city.
• Hamas declared a state of emergency in Gaza and Israel did the same in the country’s south. There were reports Hamas was barring foreigners from leaving.
• Egypt’s president, Mohamed Morsi, called Israel’s attacks on Gaza "unacceptable” and said he stood by the Gazan people. The Muslim Brotherhood, with which Morsi is aligned, called for Egypt to sever diplomatic ties with Israel. Egypt has officially requested a meeting of the UN security council to discuss what it described as Israeli aggression on Gaza, the foreign ministry said. After 33 years of peace, the relationship between Israel and Egypt has cooled since the ousting of dictator Hosni Mubarak and this is the first test of relations between Israel and a semi-democratic Egypt. Qatar, Jordan, Iran and Syria also condemned the Israeli operation.
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On November 16 2012 02:23 GoTuNk! wrote:
Some fact check request, not opinions. So has this escalated from the initial attack?
As far as attacks on both sides yes by a large amount, as far as deaths 6 that i know of today (3 Israeli civilians and 3gazen militants) no ground assault as of yet.
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Israel2209 Posts
On November 16 2012 02:25 naastyOne wrote:
I do not get it. Why do they need to drag the conflict for half a century.
Let one side finally win, and the other perish, it`s not like it happens the first time.
How often has that happened since WW2 though?
Israel does not want to conquer the Palestinian people and rule over them.
Israel does not want to kill all the Palestinians.
What do you want us to do in order to "win" exactly?
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On November 16 2012 02:26 Derez wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2012 02:23 GoTuNk! wrote:
Some fact check request, not opinions. So has this escalated from the initial atack? Yes. Attacks on Gaza and on Israel have intensified with reports of rockets near Tel Aviv. Most major newspapers are speculating that a ground invasion of Gaza is at least likely. Guardian summary from about 4 hours ago: Show nested quote +
• Israeli airstrikes continued in Gaza today following the attack yesterday that killed Hamas’s military chief Ahmed al-Jabari. The attack came after a series of rocket attacks from Gaza into southern Israel over recent days. The Israeli army said 156 targets were hit in Gaza, 126 of them rocket launchers. Thirteen people were killed in Gaza yesterday including a pregnant woman with twins, an 11-month old boy and two infants, with 130 wounded, according to Gaza’s health ministry. A truce was not on the agenda, Israeli military spokeswoman Avital Leibovitz said. Hamas’s leader, Khaled Meshaal, vowed to “continue the resistance”. Mahmoud Abbas, the Palestinian president, who rules the West Bank but not Gaza, cut short a European trip to return to the West Bank in response to the crisis.
• Three Israelis were killed by a rocket attack from Gaza, the first Israeli fatalities in the present conflict. The deaths came when a four-storey building was hit in the town of Kiryat Malachi, 15 miles (25km) north of Gaza; a four-year-old boy and two babies were also wounded. Israel said 200 rockets had struck Israel since yesterday, 135 since midnight. Eighteen rockets had been shot down today by Israel’s “iron dome” counter-missile missile system, Israel said. Hamas claimed it had fired a one-tonne rocket at Tel Aviv, but there were no reports of an impact in the city.
• Hamas declared a state of emergency in Gaza and Israel did the same in the country’s south. There were reports Hamas was barring foreigners from leaving.
• Egypt’s president, Mohamed Morsi, called Israel’s attacks on Gaza "unacceptable” and said he stood by the Gazan people. The Muslim Brotherhood, with which Morsi is aligned, called for Egypt to sever diplomatic ties with Israel. Egypt has officially requested a meeting of the UN security council to discuss what it described as Israeli aggression on Gaza, the foreign ministry said. After 33 years of peace, the relationship between Israel and Egypt has cooled since the ousting of dictator Hosni Mubarak and this is the first test of relations between Israel and a semi-democratic Egypt. Qatar, Jordan, Iran and Syria also condemned the Israeli operation.
Side-note: why did the Guardian talk about "semi-democratic" Egypt ? Some specific reason, or they just don't like the result of the democratic elections ?
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UPDATE: Tomorrow top Egyptian officials will be going to gaza as Egypt want a ceasefire now and its likely that this will give Hamas the ability to "grudgingly accept a ceasefire" despite the fact that they want a ceasefire badly. It is still unknown if the Israeli government will accept it though.
From channel 2 news, so no English source as of yet,
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On November 16 2012 02:23 GoTuNk! wrote:
Some fact check request, not opinions. So has this escalated from the initial atack?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20346545
+ Show Spoiler +Three Israelis have been killed by rocket fire from Gaza, while 15 Palestinians have been killed in two days of Israeli attacks on Gaza...
Many of the 15 Palestinians killed were members of militant groups, but civilians - including four children - were also among the dead. They included 11-month-old Omar, the son of Jihad Misharawi, a BBC Arabic picture editor
Israel has killed more children than the Hamas rocket strikes have killed people.
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If anyone has not seen this, Eqbal Ahmed delivered a thought provoking speech in 1998 entitled "Terrorism: Theirs and Ours." He begs you to see both sides of terrorism.
http://www.sangam.org/ANALYSIS/Ahmad.htm
To subject of the thread: Hamas may be evil and all, but bloodshed is not what is going to fix the conflict.
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On November 16 2012 02:28 Noam wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2012 02:25 naastyOne wrote:
I do not get it. Why do they need to drag the conflict for half a century.
Let one side finally win, and the other perish, it`s not like it happens the first time. How often has that happened since WW2 though? Israel does not want to conquer the Palestinian people and rule over them. Israel does not want to kill all the Palestinians. What do you want us to do in order to "win" exactly?
That's the tough question. All I can say is that Israel is going to "lose" if the current status quo holds. Not only do you have the obvious demographic disadvantage to the Palestinians, but now you have an Egypt on your border that likely is going to turn hostile again. Syria is likely to follow suit within five years unless Assad miraculously survives. There's no guarantee that the monarchy in Jordan will last over the long term, either.
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Good thing this isn't a numbers game then. Silly demagogic statements like this are dumb and add nothing to this discussion.
Also "Woman pregnant with twins killed - location unknown" is shoddy reporting from a reputable website. There have been many fake claims before and with a lack of names and locations this seems very questionable.
+ Show Spoiler +
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On November 16 2012 02:25 naastyOne wrote:
I do not get it. Why do they need to drag the conflict for half a century.
Let one side finally win, and the other perish, it`s not like it happens the first time.
by one side, i hope you mean israel. israel will not let themselves lose. they have sway on other nations that kind of force their hand for the time being. it's shady and imo very immoral, but it's just the way it is
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Both Israel and Hamas had decided months ago not to take action on my proposed ceasefire option, which included within it a mechanism that would prevent Israeli pre-emptive actions and would enable Hamas to prove that it was prepared to prevent terror attacks against Israel. Both sides responded very seriously to the proposal, but without any signal that there was an openness on the other side, neither was willing to advance the possibility for testing it.
Several weeks ago, I decided to try once again and, through my counterpart in Hamas, we both began speaking to high level officials on both sides. A few days ago I met my counterpart in Cairo and we agreed that he would draft a new proposal based on our common understanding of what was required to make it work.
Yesterday morning, hours before Israel assassinated Ahmed Jaabari, my counterpart in Hamas presented the draft to Jaabari and to other Hamas leaders. Senior Hamas leaders on the outside had already seen it and had instructed him to check the reactions to it in Gaza. I was supposed to receive the draft yesterday evening to present to Israeli officials who were waiting for me to send it to them.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/11/15/assassinating-the-chance-for-calm.html
Great article by one of the negotiators of the conflict, gives some good insight to how the negotiations were going and where they currently stand. It seems like any chance of peace is over and its going to escalate into Cast Lead II, but hopefully if Egypt's prime minister visits Gaza something productive could occur.
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EPT
