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On August 23 2012 22:16 blug wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 22:09 Forikorder wrote:On August 23 2012 17:00 Belial88 wrote:On August 23 2012 14:55 Forikorder wrote:On August 23 2012 14:36 Belial88 wrote:On August 23 2012 12:18 Forikorder wrote:On August 23 2012 03:45 Belial88 wrote:
Hey I can't find a TL thread about that millienium/iem david kim interview (with that other guy attached on but didnt realyl say anything), so I'd post this here but...
WTF is up with them not changing the mothership or vortex at all? He said they were going to leave the mothership as is, they weren't going to change it at all anymore.
And I have a few questions:
- Why was baneling jaws (burrow move banes) removed?
- Does Blinding Cloud (Viper) still silence?
It seemed like hots was so cool, but the later and later it gets it seems they are making it lamer and lamer (not getting rid of vortex, blinding cloud not silencing possibly or maybe im just misinformed). Obviously I know not everyone here can answer my questions, but some might. is it really that surprisng that burrow move banelings was removed.....? Yet we have 22 range tempest? I'd like to hear an explanation. Blizzard stated pretty clearly that they are putting crazy shit in. I'm wondering why this crazy thing was removed. And I really don't think hive tech burrow bane is that crazy, anyways. Toss has observers always by that time, Zerg has overseers always by that time, and Terran mass scans anyways. Seeing as it's Hive tech, it's not like anyone is going to rush hive and use burrow banes to hold that 3 base death push before broodlords/ultras come out, so I'm curious why they got rid of it. It would only be late lategame that it would be in the game, and by then timings aren't a part of the game anymore (or rather, if anything, zerg has map domination with broodlords or ultras just coming out, so terran isn't out there anyways), and Terrans would have mass OC or ravens by then. ugh, your reply is really irritating. giving banelings burrow movement is like giving Toss DTs that are 1/10th the cost and you can make 5 per warp in in order to stop burrow move banelings youd need detection and defense at every base, for Terran that means they have to have a missile turret and a full bunker at every single base they ever want to take and youd have to have enough defense that they dont jsut make 8 banelings, lose a couple to static and take everything out anyway and Terran could have to literally chain scan there army to actually keep it safe, if there army doesnt have detection for 3 seconds they instantly lose DTs are already strong in all stages of the game giving Zerg cheap DTs that have alot more potential for damage is not a good idea Detection at every base is already standard, I mean, oh my god, infested terran harass is so broken, terran has to put a turret at every base to deny burrow move roaches and ifnested terran harass! And infestor-FG drops, so broken! Omg, DTs, an invisible unit that 1-shots workers that every 3+ base toss gets, terran needs a turret at every base and zerg a spore! It's really not that outrageous. I would like to know why blizzard removed it, not why someone who is thinking in terms of WOL why it's a bad idea. As far as it is now, every fucking new thing in HOTS is fucking ridiculous and brokenly OP. It's how you make a new game and new expansion, just introduce crazy shit, and balance it out afterwards. Obviously, there was a problem with it, but I'd like to hear what the official reason it was removed for. DTs kill one worker every few seconds and cost more then 4 banelings 2 banelings and kill upwards of 20 workers in a single second if its DTs you can pull the workers away, if its roachs you can pull the workers away, if tis infesters not only did the Zerg waste fungals/ITs that could be critical in the actualbattle but there likely to lose 300 gas 100 minerals and 50 gas can trade for 1000 minerals worth of workers especiall;y in late game scenarios (which were talking about) when your 4th/5th/6th bases are 99% of the time completely undefended burrow move banelings require your opponent to invest a ton of resources on defenses when you dont actually even have to spend anything, its literally a no risk extremely high reward upgrade and it got removed and thats even ignoring its abilty in actual engagements of ZvT seeing the burrowed banelings move in on your army is a lot harder then seeing the actual banelings so you wont know how to split up your army possibly to evade the banelings you cant see and as drop defense, 2 banelings burrowed at every base means they cant drop because they cant stop the one money baneling detenation that kills the entire drop people seem to forget the game is not balanced only for GSL even if the tip top pros would rarely take damage from burrowed banelings at everything below masters burrow banelings would literally win Zerg every single game and burrow move banelings are alot more dangerous then you think, in ZvZ at all levels you can pretty mcuh burrow move in 2 infesters whenever you want and spam infested terrans, Zerg never get spore crawlers unless there mutas You know, Because DTs can't one shot workers and still live and also destroy a base. Also, banelings destroying 20 workers would take around 6 banelings, all positioned properly. Losing 6 banelings for 20 workers is actually a pretty average trade towards late game when people are floating lots of money, obviously the banelings end up in favor, but I'm just saying.... both units have there ups and downs.
no it takes 2, banelings detonate enough to cover about half the mineral line, with +1 they one shot workers, with proper positioning and a standard saturation on a mineral line (20 workers) you kill 20 workers with 2 banelings
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On August 23 2012 22:09 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 17:00 Belial88 wrote:On August 23 2012 14:55 Forikorder wrote:On August 23 2012 14:36 Belial88 wrote:On August 23 2012 12:18 Forikorder wrote:On August 23 2012 03:45 Belial88 wrote:
Hey I can't find a TL thread about that millienium/iem david kim interview (with that other guy attached on but didnt realyl say anything), so I'd post this here but...
WTF is up with them not changing the mothership or vortex at all? He said they were going to leave the mothership as is, they weren't going to change it at all anymore.
And I have a few questions:
- Why was baneling jaws (burrow move banes) removed?
- Does Blinding Cloud (Viper) still silence?
It seemed like hots was so cool, but the later and later it gets it seems they are making it lamer and lamer (not getting rid of vortex, blinding cloud not silencing possibly or maybe im just misinformed). Obviously I know not everyone here can answer my questions, but some might. is it really that surprisng that burrow move banelings was removed.....? Yet we have 22 range tempest? I'd like to hear an explanation. Blizzard stated pretty clearly that they are putting crazy shit in. I'm wondering why this crazy thing was removed. And I really don't think hive tech burrow bane is that crazy, anyways. Toss has observers always by that time, Zerg has overseers always by that time, and Terran mass scans anyways. Seeing as it's Hive tech, it's not like anyone is going to rush hive and use burrow banes to hold that 3 base death push before broodlords/ultras come out, so I'm curious why they got rid of it. It would only be late lategame that it would be in the game, and by then timings aren't a part of the game anymore (or rather, if anything, zerg has map domination with broodlords or ultras just coming out, so terran isn't out there anyways), and Terrans would have mass OC or ravens by then. ugh, your reply is really irritating. giving banelings burrow movement is like giving Toss DTs that are 1/10th the cost and you can make 5 per warp in in order to stop burrow move banelings youd need detection and defense at every base, for Terran that means they have to have a missile turret and a full bunker at every single base they ever want to take and youd have to have enough defense that they dont jsut make 8 banelings, lose a couple to static and take everything out anyway and Terran could have to literally chain scan there army to actually keep it safe, if there army doesnt have detection for 3 seconds they instantly lose DTs are already strong in all stages of the game giving Zerg cheap DTs that have alot more potential for damage is not a good idea Detection at every base is already standard, I mean, oh my god, infested terran harass is so broken, terran has to put a turret at every base to deny burrow move roaches and ifnested terran harass! And infestor-FG drops, so broken! Omg, DTs, an invisible unit that 1-shots workers that every 3+ base toss gets, terran needs a turret at every base and zerg a spore! It's really not that outrageous. I would like to know why blizzard removed it, not why someone who is thinking in terms of WOL why it's a bad idea. As far as it is now, every fucking new thing in HOTS is fucking ridiculous and brokenly OP. It's how you make a new game and new expansion, just introduce crazy shit, and balance it out afterwards. Obviously, there was a problem with it, but I'd like to hear what the official reason it was removed for. DTs kill one worker every few seconds and cost more then 4 banelings 2 banelings and kill upwards of 20 workers in a single second if its DTs you can pull the workers away, if its roachs you can pull the workers away, if tis infesters not only did the Zerg waste fungals/ITs that could be critical in the actualbattle but there likely to lose 300 gas 100 minerals and 50 gas can trade for 1000 minerals worth of workers especiall;y in late game scenarios (which were talking about) when your 4th/5th/6th bases are 99% of the time completely undefended burrow move banelings require your opponent to invest a ton of resources on defenses when you dont actually even have to spend anything, its literally a no risk extremely high reward upgrade and it got removed and thats even ignoring its abilty in actual engagements of ZvT seeing the burrowed banelings move in on your army is a lot harder then seeing the actual banelings so you wont know how to split up your army possibly to evade the banelings you cant see and as drop defense, 2 banelings burrowed at every base means they cant drop because they cant stop the one money baneling detenation that kills the entire drop people seem to forget the game is not balanced only for GSL even if the tip top pros would rarely take damage from burrowed banelings at everything below masters burrow banelings would literally win Zerg every single game and burrow move banelings are alot more dangerous then you think, in ZvZ at all levels you can pretty mcuh burrow move in 2 infesters whenever you want and spam infested terrans, Zerg never get spore crawlers unless there mutas Show nested quote +ZvT you might need to build a missile turret next to your planetary fortress. you cn easily sneak around a planetary outside its range, its range pretty much only covers the mineral line and by the time the planetary can shoot the banelings it will kill SCVs by late game you have +1 melee so they one shot SCVs so have one baneling sent to each side of the mineral line and one gets shot by the planetary and kills 70% of one side and the other detonates on place and kills the entire other half of the mineral line Show nested quote +Also, you forgot the biggest advantage of DTs... they can kill bases, not just the workers. You could do it with 20 banelings maybe... doesn't sound very cost effective to me though..... you need an absolute minimum of 4 DTs to kill a hatchery before an overseer can morph (the only scenario a DT should ever kill a base) so thats equal to 16 banelings and since its likely to have 3/3 that will probably kill a base
Yeah but the missile turret will still scout the banelings and if you lose workers to detected banelings you deserve to lose them...
Also late game dts it is very hard to handle dts on big maps. DTs force you to focus on them, because you don't want to lose bases, and can move your army out of position.
I get the feeling people are arguing against them for the sake of arguing. They both have there upsides and downsides.... I can't really see them being overpowered, they can be dealt with...
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On August 23 2012 22:19 blug wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 22:09 Forikorder wrote:On August 23 2012 17:00 Belial88 wrote:On August 23 2012 14:55 Forikorder wrote:On August 23 2012 14:36 Belial88 wrote:On August 23 2012 12:18 Forikorder wrote:On August 23 2012 03:45 Belial88 wrote:
Hey I can't find a TL thread about that millienium/iem david kim interview (with that other guy attached on but didnt realyl say anything), so I'd post this here but...
WTF is up with them not changing the mothership or vortex at all? He said they were going to leave the mothership as is, they weren't going to change it at all anymore.
And I have a few questions:
- Why was baneling jaws (burrow move banes) removed?
- Does Blinding Cloud (Viper) still silence?
It seemed like hots was so cool, but the later and later it gets it seems they are making it lamer and lamer (not getting rid of vortex, blinding cloud not silencing possibly or maybe im just misinformed). Obviously I know not everyone here can answer my questions, but some might. is it really that surprisng that burrow move banelings was removed.....? Yet we have 22 range tempest? I'd like to hear an explanation. Blizzard stated pretty clearly that they are putting crazy shit in. I'm wondering why this crazy thing was removed. And I really don't think hive tech burrow bane is that crazy, anyways. Toss has observers always by that time, Zerg has overseers always by that time, and Terran mass scans anyways. Seeing as it's Hive tech, it's not like anyone is going to rush hive and use burrow banes to hold that 3 base death push before broodlords/ultras come out, so I'm curious why they got rid of it. It would only be late lategame that it would be in the game, and by then timings aren't a part of the game anymore (or rather, if anything, zerg has map domination with broodlords or ultras just coming out, so terran isn't out there anyways), and Terrans would have mass OC or ravens by then. ugh, your reply is really irritating. giving banelings burrow movement is like giving Toss DTs that are 1/10th the cost and you can make 5 per warp in in order to stop burrow move banelings youd need detection and defense at every base, for Terran that means they have to have a missile turret and a full bunker at every single base they ever want to take and youd have to have enough defense that they dont jsut make 8 banelings, lose a couple to static and take everything out anyway and Terran could have to literally chain scan there army to actually keep it safe, if there army doesnt have detection for 3 seconds they instantly lose DTs are already strong in all stages of the game giving Zerg cheap DTs that have alot more potential for damage is not a good idea Detection at every base is already standard, I mean, oh my god, infested terran harass is so broken, terran has to put a turret at every base to deny burrow move roaches and ifnested terran harass! And infestor-FG drops, so broken! Omg, DTs, an invisible unit that 1-shots workers that every 3+ base toss gets, terran needs a turret at every base and zerg a spore! It's really not that outrageous. I would like to know why blizzard removed it, not why someone who is thinking in terms of WOL why it's a bad idea. As far as it is now, every fucking new thing in HOTS is fucking ridiculous and brokenly OP. It's how you make a new game and new expansion, just introduce crazy shit, and balance it out afterwards. Obviously, there was a problem with it, but I'd like to hear what the official reason it was removed for. DTs kill one worker every few seconds and cost more then 4 banelings 2 banelings and kill upwards of 20 workers in a single second if its DTs you can pull the workers away, if its roachs you can pull the workers away, if tis infesters not only did the Zerg waste fungals/ITs that could be critical in the actualbattle but there likely to lose 300 gas 100 minerals and 50 gas can trade for 1000 minerals worth of workers especiall;y in late game scenarios (which were talking about) when your 4th/5th/6th bases are 99% of the time completely undefended burrow move banelings require your opponent to invest a ton of resources on defenses when you dont actually even have to spend anything, its literally a no risk extremely high reward upgrade and it got removed and thats even ignoring its abilty in actual engagements of ZvT seeing the burrowed banelings move in on your army is a lot harder then seeing the actual banelings so you wont know how to split up your army possibly to evade the banelings you cant see and as drop defense, 2 banelings burrowed at every base means they cant drop because they cant stop the one money baneling detenation that kills the entire drop people seem to forget the game is not balanced only for GSL even if the tip top pros would rarely take damage from burrowed banelings at everything below masters burrow banelings would literally win Zerg every single game and burrow move banelings are alot more dangerous then you think, in ZvZ at all levels you can pretty mcuh burrow move in 2 infesters whenever you want and spam infested terrans, Zerg never get spore crawlers unless there mutas ZvT you might need to build a missile turret next to your planetary fortress. you cn easily sneak around a planetary outside its range, its range pretty much only covers the mineral line and by the time the planetary can shoot the banelings it will kill SCVs by late game you have +1 melee so they one shot SCVs so have one baneling sent to each side of the mineral line and one gets shot by the planetary and kills 70% of one side and the other detonates on place and kills the entire other half of the mineral line Also, you forgot the biggest advantage of DTs... they can kill bases, not just the workers. You could do it with 20 banelings maybe... doesn't sound very cost effective to me though..... you need an absolute minimum of 4 DTs to kill a hatchery before an overseer can morph (the only scenario a DT should ever kill a base) so thats equal to 16 banelings and since its likely to have 3/3 that will probably kill a base Yeah but the missile turret will still scout the banelings and if you lose workers to detected banelings you deserve to lose them... Also late game dts it is very hard to handle dts on big maps. DTs force you to focus on them, because you don't want to lose bases, and can move your army out of position.
show me a single player who has the map awareness to notice 2 tiny itty bitty dots on the minimap that barely cross the fring of his vision especially if the Zerg is doing other things that force his attention
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A lot of people predicting this weekend or very very very soon. How quickly you forget the WoL beta. The rumours before hand (and somewhat credible news) built up and up and up ridiculously. Honestly not to be a pessimistic asshole but if Blizzard says "very soon" you should translate that to "possibly within the next 8 weeks, 4 if you're lucky" - seriously.
Also considering some of the units, it might be more of a curse than a blessing :/
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On August 23 2012 22:21 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 22:19 blug wrote:On August 23 2012 22:09 Forikorder wrote:On August 23 2012 17:00 Belial88 wrote:On August 23 2012 14:55 Forikorder wrote:On August 23 2012 14:36 Belial88 wrote:On August 23 2012 12:18 Forikorder wrote:On August 23 2012 03:45 Belial88 wrote:
Hey I can't find a TL thread about that millienium/iem david kim interview (with that other guy attached on but didnt realyl say anything), so I'd post this here but...
WTF is up with them not changing the mothership or vortex at all? He said they were going to leave the mothership as is, they weren't going to change it at all anymore.
And I have a few questions:
- Why was baneling jaws (burrow move banes) removed?
- Does Blinding Cloud (Viper) still silence?
It seemed like hots was so cool, but the later and later it gets it seems they are making it lamer and lamer (not getting rid of vortex, blinding cloud not silencing possibly or maybe im just misinformed). Obviously I know not everyone here can answer my questions, but some might. is it really that surprisng that burrow move banelings was removed.....? Yet we have 22 range tempest? I'd like to hear an explanation. Blizzard stated pretty clearly that they are putting crazy shit in. I'm wondering why this crazy thing was removed. And I really don't think hive tech burrow bane is that crazy, anyways. Toss has observers always by that time, Zerg has overseers always by that time, and Terran mass scans anyways. Seeing as it's Hive tech, it's not like anyone is going to rush hive and use burrow banes to hold that 3 base death push before broodlords/ultras come out, so I'm curious why they got rid of it. It would only be late lategame that it would be in the game, and by then timings aren't a part of the game anymore (or rather, if anything, zerg has map domination with broodlords or ultras just coming out, so terran isn't out there anyways), and Terrans would have mass OC or ravens by then. ugh, your reply is really irritating. giving banelings burrow movement is like giving Toss DTs that are 1/10th the cost and you can make 5 per warp in in order to stop burrow move banelings youd need detection and defense at every base, for Terran that means they have to have a missile turret and a full bunker at every single base they ever want to take and youd have to have enough defense that they dont jsut make 8 banelings, lose a couple to static and take everything out anyway and Terran could have to literally chain scan there army to actually keep it safe, if there army doesnt have detection for 3 seconds they instantly lose DTs are already strong in all stages of the game giving Zerg cheap DTs that have alot more potential for damage is not a good idea Detection at every base is already standard, I mean, oh my god, infested terran harass is so broken, terran has to put a turret at every base to deny burrow move roaches and ifnested terran harass! And infestor-FG drops, so broken! Omg, DTs, an invisible unit that 1-shots workers that every 3+ base toss gets, terran needs a turret at every base and zerg a spore! It's really not that outrageous. I would like to know why blizzard removed it, not why someone who is thinking in terms of WOL why it's a bad idea. As far as it is now, every fucking new thing in HOTS is fucking ridiculous and brokenly OP. It's how you make a new game and new expansion, just introduce crazy shit, and balance it out afterwards. Obviously, there was a problem with it, but I'd like to hear what the official reason it was removed for. DTs kill one worker every few seconds and cost more then 4 banelings 2 banelings and kill upwards of 20 workers in a single second if its DTs you can pull the workers away, if its roachs you can pull the workers away, if tis infesters not only did the Zerg waste fungals/ITs that could be critical in the actualbattle but there likely to lose 300 gas 100 minerals and 50 gas can trade for 1000 minerals worth of workers especiall;y in late game scenarios (which were talking about) when your 4th/5th/6th bases are 99% of the time completely undefended burrow move banelings require your opponent to invest a ton of resources on defenses when you dont actually even have to spend anything, its literally a no risk extremely high reward upgrade and it got removed and thats even ignoring its abilty in actual engagements of ZvT seeing the burrowed banelings move in on your army is a lot harder then seeing the actual banelings so you wont know how to split up your army possibly to evade the banelings you cant see and as drop defense, 2 banelings burrowed at every base means they cant drop because they cant stop the one money baneling detenation that kills the entire drop people seem to forget the game is not balanced only for GSL even if the tip top pros would rarely take damage from burrowed banelings at everything below masters burrow banelings would literally win Zerg every single game and burrow move banelings are alot more dangerous then you think, in ZvZ at all levels you can pretty mcuh burrow move in 2 infesters whenever you want and spam infested terrans, Zerg never get spore crawlers unless there mutas ZvT you might need to build a missile turret next to your planetary fortress. you cn easily sneak around a planetary outside its range, its range pretty much only covers the mineral line and by the time the planetary can shoot the banelings it will kill SCVs by late game you have +1 melee so they one shot SCVs so have one baneling sent to each side of the mineral line and one gets shot by the planetary and kills 70% of one side and the other detonates on place and kills the entire other half of the mineral line Also, you forgot the biggest advantage of DTs... they can kill bases, not just the workers. You could do it with 20 banelings maybe... doesn't sound very cost effective to me though..... you need an absolute minimum of 4 DTs to kill a hatchery before an overseer can morph (the only scenario a DT should ever kill a base) so thats equal to 16 banelings and since its likely to have 3/3 that will probably kill a base Yeah but the missile turret will still scout the banelings and if you lose workers to detected banelings you deserve to lose them... Also late game dts it is very hard to handle dts on big maps. DTs force you to focus on them, because you don't want to lose bases, and can move your army out of position. show me a single player who has the map awareness to notice 2 tiny itty bitty dots on the minimap that barely cross the fring of his vision especially if the Zerg is doing other things that force his attention
Err, me for one. I've hard situations where banelings come at my third from down a ramp and I move my workers in time. As soon as I see a different color on my map that I don't know about I will investigate it.
I'm only low masters, I can only imagine GMs/GSL players could do it better.
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On August 23 2012 22:23 blug wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 22:21 Forikorder wrote:On August 23 2012 22:19 blug wrote:On August 23 2012 22:09 Forikorder wrote:On August 23 2012 17:00 Belial88 wrote:On August 23 2012 14:55 Forikorder wrote:On August 23 2012 14:36 Belial88 wrote:On August 23 2012 12:18 Forikorder wrote:On August 23 2012 03:45 Belial88 wrote:
Hey I can't find a TL thread about that millienium/iem david kim interview (with that other guy attached on but didnt realyl say anything), so I'd post this here but...
WTF is up with them not changing the mothership or vortex at all? He said they were going to leave the mothership as is, they weren't going to change it at all anymore.
And I have a few questions:
- Why was baneling jaws (burrow move banes) removed?
- Does Blinding Cloud (Viper) still silence?
It seemed like hots was so cool, but the later and later it gets it seems they are making it lamer and lamer (not getting rid of vortex, blinding cloud not silencing possibly or maybe im just misinformed). Obviously I know not everyone here can answer my questions, but some might. is it really that surprisng that burrow move banelings was removed.....? Yet we have 22 range tempest? I'd like to hear an explanation. Blizzard stated pretty clearly that they are putting crazy shit in. I'm wondering why this crazy thing was removed. And I really don't think hive tech burrow bane is that crazy, anyways. Toss has observers always by that time, Zerg has overseers always by that time, and Terran mass scans anyways. Seeing as it's Hive tech, it's not like anyone is going to rush hive and use burrow banes to hold that 3 base death push before broodlords/ultras come out, so I'm curious why they got rid of it. It would only be late lategame that it would be in the game, and by then timings aren't a part of the game anymore (or rather, if anything, zerg has map domination with broodlords or ultras just coming out, so terran isn't out there anyways), and Terrans would have mass OC or ravens by then. ugh, your reply is really irritating. giving banelings burrow movement is like giving Toss DTs that are 1/10th the cost and you can make 5 per warp in in order to stop burrow move banelings youd need detection and defense at every base, for Terran that means they have to have a missile turret and a full bunker at every single base they ever want to take and youd have to have enough defense that they dont jsut make 8 banelings, lose a couple to static and take everything out anyway and Terran could have to literally chain scan there army to actually keep it safe, if there army doesnt have detection for 3 seconds they instantly lose DTs are already strong in all stages of the game giving Zerg cheap DTs that have alot more potential for damage is not a good idea Detection at every base is already standard, I mean, oh my god, infested terran harass is so broken, terran has to put a turret at every base to deny burrow move roaches and ifnested terran harass! And infestor-FG drops, so broken! Omg, DTs, an invisible unit that 1-shots workers that every 3+ base toss gets, terran needs a turret at every base and zerg a spore! It's really not that outrageous. I would like to know why blizzard removed it, not why someone who is thinking in terms of WOL why it's a bad idea. As far as it is now, every fucking new thing in HOTS is fucking ridiculous and brokenly OP. It's how you make a new game and new expansion, just introduce crazy shit, and balance it out afterwards. Obviously, there was a problem with it, but I'd like to hear what the official reason it was removed for. DTs kill one worker every few seconds and cost more then 4 banelings 2 banelings and kill upwards of 20 workers in a single second if its DTs you can pull the workers away, if its roachs you can pull the workers away, if tis infesters not only did the Zerg waste fungals/ITs that could be critical in the actualbattle but there likely to lose 300 gas 100 minerals and 50 gas can trade for 1000 minerals worth of workers especiall;y in late game scenarios (which were talking about) when your 4th/5th/6th bases are 99% of the time completely undefended burrow move banelings require your opponent to invest a ton of resources on defenses when you dont actually even have to spend anything, its literally a no risk extremely high reward upgrade and it got removed and thats even ignoring its abilty in actual engagements of ZvT seeing the burrowed banelings move in on your army is a lot harder then seeing the actual banelings so you wont know how to split up your army possibly to evade the banelings you cant see and as drop defense, 2 banelings burrowed at every base means they cant drop because they cant stop the one money baneling detenation that kills the entire drop people seem to forget the game is not balanced only for GSL even if the tip top pros would rarely take damage from burrowed banelings at everything below masters burrow banelings would literally win Zerg every single game and burrow move banelings are alot more dangerous then you think, in ZvZ at all levels you can pretty mcuh burrow move in 2 infesters whenever you want and spam infested terrans, Zerg never get spore crawlers unless there mutas ZvT you might need to build a missile turret next to your planetary fortress. you cn easily sneak around a planetary outside its range, its range pretty much only covers the mineral line and by the time the planetary can shoot the banelings it will kill SCVs by late game you have +1 melee so they one shot SCVs so have one baneling sent to each side of the mineral line and one gets shot by the planetary and kills 70% of one side and the other detonates on place and kills the entire other half of the mineral line Also, you forgot the biggest advantage of DTs... they can kill bases, not just the workers. You could do it with 20 banelings maybe... doesn't sound very cost effective to me though..... you need an absolute minimum of 4 DTs to kill a hatchery before an overseer can morph (the only scenario a DT should ever kill a base) so thats equal to 16 banelings and since its likely to have 3/3 that will probably kill a base Yeah but the missile turret will still scout the banelings and if you lose workers to detected banelings you deserve to lose them... Also late game dts it is very hard to handle dts on big maps. DTs force you to focus on them, because you don't want to lose bases, and can move your army out of position. show me a single player who has the map awareness to notice 2 tiny itty bitty dots on the minimap that barely cross the fring of his vision especially if the Zerg is doing other things that force his attention Err, me for one. I've hard situations where banelings come at my third from down a ramp and I move my workers in time. As soon as I see a different color on my map that I don't know about I will investigate it. I'm only low masters, I can only imagine GMs/GSL players could do it better.
thats your third, since it was targetted i assume it was a mid game scenario where noone really has a fourth and your both in mid tier trying to establish the economy to move up to T3
in other words not the scenario were talking about
also you have to consider bronze-diamond not jsut master-GM
also there doesnt exist a Zerg that catch every single drop even if it passes an Overlord
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On August 23 2012 22:27 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 22:23 blug wrote:On August 23 2012 22:21 Forikorder wrote:On August 23 2012 22:19 blug wrote:On August 23 2012 22:09 Forikorder wrote:On August 23 2012 17:00 Belial88 wrote:On August 23 2012 14:55 Forikorder wrote:On August 23 2012 14:36 Belial88 wrote:On August 23 2012 12:18 Forikorder wrote:On August 23 2012 03:45 Belial88 wrote:
Hey I can't find a TL thread about that millienium/iem david kim interview (with that other guy attached on but didnt realyl say anything), so I'd post this here but...
WTF is up with them not changing the mothership or vortex at all? He said they were going to leave the mothership as is, they weren't going to change it at all anymore.
And I have a few questions:
- Why was baneling jaws (burrow move banes) removed?
- Does Blinding Cloud (Viper) still silence?
It seemed like hots was so cool, but the later and later it gets it seems they are making it lamer and lamer (not getting rid of vortex, blinding cloud not silencing possibly or maybe im just misinformed). Obviously I know not everyone here can answer my questions, but some might. is it really that surprisng that burrow move banelings was removed.....? Yet we have 22 range tempest? I'd like to hear an explanation. Blizzard stated pretty clearly that they are putting crazy shit in. I'm wondering why this crazy thing was removed. And I really don't think hive tech burrow bane is that crazy, anyways. Toss has observers always by that time, Zerg has overseers always by that time, and Terran mass scans anyways. Seeing as it's Hive tech, it's not like anyone is going to rush hive and use burrow banes to hold that 3 base death push before broodlords/ultras come out, so I'm curious why they got rid of it. It would only be late lategame that it would be in the game, and by then timings aren't a part of the game anymore (or rather, if anything, zerg has map domination with broodlords or ultras just coming out, so terran isn't out there anyways), and Terrans would have mass OC or ravens by then. ugh, your reply is really irritating. giving banelings burrow movement is like giving Toss DTs that are 1/10th the cost and you can make 5 per warp in in order to stop burrow move banelings youd need detection and defense at every base, for Terran that means they have to have a missile turret and a full bunker at every single base they ever want to take and youd have to have enough defense that they dont jsut make 8 banelings, lose a couple to static and take everything out anyway and Terran could have to literally chain scan there army to actually keep it safe, if there army doesnt have detection for 3 seconds they instantly lose DTs are already strong in all stages of the game giving Zerg cheap DTs that have alot more potential for damage is not a good idea Detection at every base is already standard, I mean, oh my god, infested terran harass is so broken, terran has to put a turret at every base to deny burrow move roaches and ifnested terran harass! And infestor-FG drops, so broken! Omg, DTs, an invisible unit that 1-shots workers that every 3+ base toss gets, terran needs a turret at every base and zerg a spore! It's really not that outrageous. I would like to know why blizzard removed it, not why someone who is thinking in terms of WOL why it's a bad idea. As far as it is now, every fucking new thing in HOTS is fucking ridiculous and brokenly OP. It's how you make a new game and new expansion, just introduce crazy shit, and balance it out afterwards. Obviously, there was a problem with it, but I'd like to hear what the official reason it was removed for. DTs kill one worker every few seconds and cost more then 4 banelings 2 banelings and kill upwards of 20 workers in a single second if its DTs you can pull the workers away, if its roachs you can pull the workers away, if tis infesters not only did the Zerg waste fungals/ITs that could be critical in the actualbattle but there likely to lose 300 gas 100 minerals and 50 gas can trade for 1000 minerals worth of workers especiall;y in late game scenarios (which were talking about) when your 4th/5th/6th bases are 99% of the time completely undefended burrow move banelings require your opponent to invest a ton of resources on defenses when you dont actually even have to spend anything, its literally a no risk extremely high reward upgrade and it got removed and thats even ignoring its abilty in actual engagements of ZvT seeing the burrowed banelings move in on your army is a lot harder then seeing the actual banelings so you wont know how to split up your army possibly to evade the banelings you cant see and as drop defense, 2 banelings burrowed at every base means they cant drop because they cant stop the one money baneling detenation that kills the entire drop people seem to forget the game is not balanced only for GSL even if the tip top pros would rarely take damage from burrowed banelings at everything below masters burrow banelings would literally win Zerg every single game and burrow move banelings are alot more dangerous then you think, in ZvZ at all levels you can pretty mcuh burrow move in 2 infesters whenever you want and spam infested terrans, Zerg never get spore crawlers unless there mutas ZvT you might need to build a missile turret next to your planetary fortress. you cn easily sneak around a planetary outside its range, its range pretty much only covers the mineral line and by the time the planetary can shoot the banelings it will kill SCVs by late game you have +1 melee so they one shot SCVs so have one baneling sent to each side of the mineral line and one gets shot by the planetary and kills 70% of one side and the other detonates on place and kills the entire other half of the mineral line Also, you forgot the biggest advantage of DTs... they can kill bases, not just the workers. You could do it with 20 banelings maybe... doesn't sound very cost effective to me though..... you need an absolute minimum of 4 DTs to kill a hatchery before an overseer can morph (the only scenario a DT should ever kill a base) so thats equal to 16 banelings and since its likely to have 3/3 that will probably kill a base Yeah but the missile turret will still scout the banelings and if you lose workers to detected banelings you deserve to lose them... Also late game dts it is very hard to handle dts on big maps. DTs force you to focus on them, because you don't want to lose bases, and can move your army out of position. show me a single player who has the map awareness to notice 2 tiny itty bitty dots on the minimap that barely cross the fring of his vision especially if the Zerg is doing other things that force his attention Err, me for one. I've hard situations where banelings come at my third from down a ramp and I move my workers in time. As soon as I see a different color on my map that I don't know about I will investigate it. I'm only low masters, I can only imagine GMs/GSL players could do it better. thats your third, since it was targetted i assume it was a mid game scenario where noone really has a fourth and your both in mid tier trying to establish the economy to move up to T3 in other words not the scenario were talking about
Actually it can be any time of the game, because as soon as I see a different color on my minimap I react. It's the same for lots of people.
Also, in a real game it's not always as simple as walking your cloaked units from your base to theres. You also put your detectors in places where the banelings will walk past, not always at your base.
Honestly, if you are saying this is OP then you must thing baneling drops into mineral lines is OP, because they can come out of no where. However, I react to them alot of the time, sometimes I don't, but that's my own fault. I see players always move away in time.
There are just so many avenues in which you can avoid burrowed banelings, it doesn't make sense to me being OP.
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I don't know what you are arguing blug. Whether burrow-move is overpowered or not does not matter, we all know that it could be balanced and not impact pro-level play too much. The question is if it's good design to introduce something like this to the game. If Blizzard does then you'll get a situation where in late-game you are forced to have detection over your army, because if you don't you're at risk for instantly losing everything. As a result it will simply force preemptive detection in all such scenarios and invalidate burrow-move banelings as a useful strategy. To me that's not good design.
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On August 23 2012 22:33 blug wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 22:27 Forikorder wrote:On August 23 2012 22:23 blug wrote:On August 23 2012 22:21 Forikorder wrote:On August 23 2012 22:19 blug wrote:On August 23 2012 22:09 Forikorder wrote:On August 23 2012 17:00 Belial88 wrote:On August 23 2012 14:55 Forikorder wrote:On August 23 2012 14:36 Belial88 wrote:On August 23 2012 12:18 Forikorder wrote:
[quote]
is it really that surprisng that burrow move banelings was removed.....? Yet we have 22 range tempest? I'd like to hear an explanation. Blizzard stated pretty clearly that they are putting crazy shit in. I'm wondering why this crazy thing was removed. And I really don't think hive tech burrow bane is that crazy, anyways. Toss has observers always by that time, Zerg has overseers always by that time, and Terran mass scans anyways. Seeing as it's Hive tech, it's not like anyone is going to rush hive and use burrow banes to hold that 3 base death push before broodlords/ultras come out, so I'm curious why they got rid of it. It would only be late lategame that it would be in the game, and by then timings aren't a part of the game anymore (or rather, if anything, zerg has map domination with broodlords or ultras just coming out, so terran isn't out there anyways), and Terrans would have mass OC or ravens by then. ugh, your reply is really irritating. giving banelings burrow movement is like giving Toss DTs that are 1/10th the cost and you can make 5 per warp in in order to stop burrow move banelings youd need detection and defense at every base, for Terran that means they have to have a missile turret and a full bunker at every single base they ever want to take and youd have to have enough defense that they dont jsut make 8 banelings, lose a couple to static and take everything out anyway and Terran could have to literally chain scan there army to actually keep it safe, if there army doesnt have detection for 3 seconds they instantly lose DTs are already strong in all stages of the game giving Zerg cheap DTs that have alot more potential for damage is not a good idea Detection at every base is already standard, I mean, oh my god, infested terran harass is so broken, terran has to put a turret at every base to deny burrow move roaches and ifnested terran harass! And infestor-FG drops, so broken! Omg, DTs, an invisible unit that 1-shots workers that every 3+ base toss gets, terran needs a turret at every base and zerg a spore! It's really not that outrageous. I would like to know why blizzard removed it, not why someone who is thinking in terms of WOL why it's a bad idea. As far as it is now, every fucking new thing in HOTS is fucking ridiculous and brokenly OP. It's how you make a new game and new expansion, just introduce crazy shit, and balance it out afterwards. Obviously, there was a problem with it, but I'd like to hear what the official reason it was removed for. DTs kill one worker every few seconds and cost more then 4 banelings 2 banelings and kill upwards of 20 workers in a single second if its DTs you can pull the workers away, if its roachs you can pull the workers away, if tis infesters not only did the Zerg waste fungals/ITs that could be critical in the actualbattle but there likely to lose 300 gas 100 minerals and 50 gas can trade for 1000 minerals worth of workers especiall;y in late game scenarios (which were talking about) when your 4th/5th/6th bases are 99% of the time completely undefended burrow move banelings require your opponent to invest a ton of resources on defenses when you dont actually even have to spend anything, its literally a no risk extremely high reward upgrade and it got removed and thats even ignoring its abilty in actual engagements of ZvT seeing the burrowed banelings move in on your army is a lot harder then seeing the actual banelings so you wont know how to split up your army possibly to evade the banelings you cant see and as drop defense, 2 banelings burrowed at every base means they cant drop because they cant stop the one money baneling detenation that kills the entire drop people seem to forget the game is not balanced only for GSL even if the tip top pros would rarely take damage from burrowed banelings at everything below masters burrow banelings would literally win Zerg every single game and burrow move banelings are alot more dangerous then you think, in ZvZ at all levels you can pretty mcuh burrow move in 2 infesters whenever you want and spam infested terrans, Zerg never get spore crawlers unless there mutas ZvT you might need to build a missile turret next to your planetary fortress. you cn easily sneak around a planetary outside its range, its range pretty much only covers the mineral line and by the time the planetary can shoot the banelings it will kill SCVs by late game you have +1 melee so they one shot SCVs so have one baneling sent to each side of the mineral line and one gets shot by the planetary and kills 70% of one side and the other detonates on place and kills the entire other half of the mineral line Also, you forgot the biggest advantage of DTs... they can kill bases, not just the workers. You could do it with 20 banelings maybe... doesn't sound very cost effective to me though..... you need an absolute minimum of 4 DTs to kill a hatchery before an overseer can morph (the only scenario a DT should ever kill a base) so thats equal to 16 banelings and since its likely to have 3/3 that will probably kill a base Yeah but the missile turret will still scout the banelings and if you lose workers to detected banelings you deserve to lose them... Also late game dts it is very hard to handle dts on big maps. DTs force you to focus on them, because you don't want to lose bases, and can move your army out of position. show me a single player who has the map awareness to notice 2 tiny itty bitty dots on the minimap that barely cross the fring of his vision especially if the Zerg is doing other things that force his attention Err, me for one. I've hard situations where banelings come at my third from down a ramp and I move my workers in time. As soon as I see a different color on my map that I don't know about I will investigate it. I'm only low masters, I can only imagine GMs/GSL players could do it better. thats your third, since it was targetted i assume it was a mid game scenario where noone really has a fourth and your both in mid tier trying to establish the economy to move up to T3 in other words not the scenario were talking about Actually it can be any time of the game, because as soon as I see a different color on my minimap I react. It's the same for lots of people. Also, in a real game it's not always as simple as walking your cloaked units from your base to theres. You also put your detectors in places where the banelings will walk past, not always at your base. Honestly, if you are saying this is OP then you must thing baneling drops into mineral lines is OP, because they can come out of no where. However, I react to them alot of the time, sometimes I don't, but that's my own fault. I see players always move away in time. There are just so many avenues in which you can avoid burrowed banelings, it doesn't make sense to me being OP.
baneling drops require a much larger investment and can pretty mcuh only be used against protoss so no the scenario there used is much smaller so no there not OP
but especially at lower levels its impossible for say a gold league to actually defend against burrowed banelings especailly after 3 bases
burrowed banelings would be like hellions before the nerf, even if the first 3 attempts fail completely if it works jsut one time it makes every hellion you made well worth it because you kill an entire mineral line and win
it requires constant vigilance from the other side they have to have detection with there army and at every base all the time, if they dont have detection for there army (scans dont count) they HAVE to mvoe back until they do have detection because the burrowed banelings will massacre them
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If you're not vigilant enough to scan for cloaked things, you do not belong in Starcraft. Also if you're a gold league player, you're not facing zergs competent enough to have good timing or positioning with the burrowed banes for it to be a decent investment. If it were up to low league players, there wouldn't be anything remotely challenging left in this game.
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On August 23 2012 22:48 sCCrooked wrote:
If you're not vigilant enough to scan for cloaked things, you do not belong in Starcraft. Also if you're a gold league player, you're not facing zergs competent enough to have good timing or positioning with the burrowed banes for it to be a decent investment. If it were up to low league players, there wouldn't be anything remotely challenging left in this game.
you cant use scan as your main source of detection for this, it is 100% neccesary for Terran to always have a raven with there army if banelings could burrow move
unless they had so many orbitals they could have a scan up 100% of the time
also im pretty sure gold leaguers are good enough to hit B and move the banelings into a mineral line
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they should also make that you can see burrowed units easier like it is with every other cloaked unit...
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I think burrow move banelings could be insanely powerful if used right. They could move right under your army and bam, your army gets owned. That is more scary to me, because that could potentially stop your push.
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France9034 Posts
Just saw this...
Mmmh I don't know how to feel. Scary or happy... ? I think it'll end being both ^^
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If i am the game designer, i would give banelings a burrow-move ability (by default or just a cheap upgrade), but they are only able to move a very short distance (1/4 screen distance?) for every 20s cooldown. It would buff baneling mines for their intended purpose without breaking anything else. You can then use them more in open areas, and no longer require extreme accuracy and luck to pull them off.
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On August 23 2012 22:42 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 22:33 blug wrote:On August 23 2012 22:27 Forikorder wrote:On August 23 2012 22:23 blug wrote:On August 23 2012 22:21 Forikorder wrote:On August 23 2012 22:19 blug wrote:On August 23 2012 22:09 Forikorder wrote:On August 23 2012 17:00 Belial88 wrote:On August 23 2012 14:55 Forikorder wrote:On August 23 2012 14:36 Belial88 wrote:
[quote]
Yet we have 22 range tempest? I'd like to hear an explanation. Blizzard stated pretty clearly that they are putting crazy shit in. I'm wondering why this crazy thing was removed.
And I really don't think hive tech burrow bane is that crazy, anyways. Toss has observers always by that time, Zerg has overseers always by that time, and Terran mass scans anyways. Seeing as it's Hive tech, it's not like anyone is going to rush hive and use burrow banes to hold that 3 base death push before broodlords/ultras come out, so I'm curious why they got rid of it. It would only be late lategame that it would be in the game, and by then timings aren't a part of the game anymore (or rather, if anything, zerg has map domination with broodlords or ultras just coming out, so terran isn't out there anyways), and Terrans would have mass OC or ravens by then.
ugh, your reply is really irritating. giving banelings burrow movement is like giving Toss DTs that are 1/10th the cost and you can make 5 per warp in in order to stop burrow move banelings youd need detection and defense at every base, for Terran that means they have to have a missile turret and a full bunker at every single base they ever want to take and youd have to have enough defense that they dont jsut make 8 banelings, lose a couple to static and take everything out anyway and Terran could have to literally chain scan there army to actually keep it safe, if there army doesnt have detection for 3 seconds they instantly lose DTs are already strong in all stages of the game giving Zerg cheap DTs that have alot more potential for damage is not a good idea Detection at every base is already standard, I mean, oh my god, infested terran harass is so broken, terran has to put a turret at every base to deny burrow move roaches and ifnested terran harass! And infestor-FG drops, so broken! Omg, DTs, an invisible unit that 1-shots workers that every 3+ base toss gets, terran needs a turret at every base and zerg a spore! It's really not that outrageous. I would like to know why blizzard removed it, not why someone who is thinking in terms of WOL why it's a bad idea. As far as it is now, every fucking new thing in HOTS is fucking ridiculous and brokenly OP. It's how you make a new game and new expansion, just introduce crazy shit, and balance it out afterwards. Obviously, there was a problem with it, but I'd like to hear what the official reason it was removed for. DTs kill one worker every few seconds and cost more then 4 banelings 2 banelings and kill upwards of 20 workers in a single second if its DTs you can pull the workers away, if its roachs you can pull the workers away, if tis infesters not only did the Zerg waste fungals/ITs that could be critical in the actualbattle but there likely to lose 300 gas 100 minerals and 50 gas can trade for 1000 minerals worth of workers especiall;y in late game scenarios (which were talking about) when your 4th/5th/6th bases are 99% of the time completely undefended burrow move banelings require your opponent to invest a ton of resources on defenses when you dont actually even have to spend anything, its literally a no risk extremely high reward upgrade and it got removed and thats even ignoring its abilty in actual engagements of ZvT seeing the burrowed banelings move in on your army is a lot harder then seeing the actual banelings so you wont know how to split up your army possibly to evade the banelings you cant see and as drop defense, 2 banelings burrowed at every base means they cant drop because they cant stop the one money baneling detenation that kills the entire drop people seem to forget the game is not balanced only for GSL even if the tip top pros would rarely take damage from burrowed banelings at everything below masters burrow banelings would literally win Zerg every single game and burrow move banelings are alot more dangerous then you think, in ZvZ at all levels you can pretty mcuh burrow move in 2 infesters whenever you want and spam infested terrans, Zerg never get spore crawlers unless there mutas ZvT you might need to build a missile turret next to your planetary fortress. you cn easily sneak around a planetary outside its range, its range pretty much only covers the mineral line and by the time the planetary can shoot the banelings it will kill SCVs by late game you have +1 melee so they one shot SCVs so have one baneling sent to each side of the mineral line and one gets shot by the planetary and kills 70% of one side and the other detonates on place and kills the entire other half of the mineral line Also, you forgot the biggest advantage of DTs... they can kill bases, not just the workers. You could do it with 20 banelings maybe... doesn't sound very cost effective to me though..... you need an absolute minimum of 4 DTs to kill a hatchery before an overseer can morph (the only scenario a DT should ever kill a base) so thats equal to 16 banelings and since its likely to have 3/3 that will probably kill a base Yeah but the missile turret will still scout the banelings and if you lose workers to detected banelings you deserve to lose them... Also late game dts it is very hard to handle dts on big maps. DTs force you to focus on them, because you don't want to lose bases, and can move your army out of position. show me a single player who has the map awareness to notice 2 tiny itty bitty dots on the minimap that barely cross the fring of his vision especially if the Zerg is doing other things that force his attention Err, me for one. I've hard situations where banelings come at my third from down a ramp and I move my workers in time. As soon as I see a different color on my map that I don't know about I will investigate it. I'm only low masters, I can only imagine GMs/GSL players could do it better. thats your third, since it was targetted i assume it was a mid game scenario where noone really has a fourth and your both in mid tier trying to establish the economy to move up to T3 in other words not the scenario were talking about Actually it can be any time of the game, because as soon as I see a different color on my minimap I react. It's the same for lots of people. Also, in a real game it's not always as simple as walking your cloaked units from your base to theres. You also put your detectors in places where the banelings will walk past, not always at your base. Honestly, if you are saying this is OP then you must thing baneling drops into mineral lines is OP, because they can come out of no where. However, I react to them alot of the time, sometimes I don't, but that's my own fault. I see players always move away in time. There are just so many avenues in which you can avoid burrowed banelings, it doesn't make sense to me being OP. baneling drops require a much larger investment and can pretty mcuh only be used against protoss so no the scenario there used is much smaller so no there not OP but especially at lower levels its impossible for say a gold league to actually defend against burrowed banelings especailly after 3 bases burrowed banelings would be like hellions before the nerf, even if the first 3 attempts fail completely if it works jsut one time it makes every hellion you made well worth it because you kill an entire mineral line and win it requires constant vigilance from the other side they have to have detection with there army and at every base all the time, if they dont have detection for there army (scans dont count) they HAVE to mvoe back until they do have detection because the burrowed banelings will massacre them
I can assure you, I can't imagine in gold league matches going past 3 bases and if they do I can't imagine players doing triple prong baneling dumps in peoples mineral lines.
Also, it won't be like hellions before the nerf because it's late game ZvT. The hellions were a problem because you would keep doing hellion drops before the thirteen mark until you get your lucky 20 kill mineral line shot.
Also what about double fungals on mineral lines when you get infestors behind someones base? You don't see that happening every game, infact you almost get people going infested terrans and shooting for the base because the base is more important, not the workers. (Not to say workers aren't important).
Also, if you don't have detection by the time zerg has hive you probably shouldn't be playing this game. You could argue ravens are a bit harder to get, but ravens are becoming alot more used in the meta game, so I don't see it being an issue.
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On August 23 2012 23:18 blug wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 22:42 Forikorder wrote:On August 23 2012 22:33 blug wrote:On August 23 2012 22:27 Forikorder wrote:On August 23 2012 22:23 blug wrote:On August 23 2012 22:21 Forikorder wrote:On August 23 2012 22:19 blug wrote:On August 23 2012 22:09 Forikorder wrote:On August 23 2012 17:00 Belial88 wrote:On August 23 2012 14:55 Forikorder wrote:
[quote]
giving banelings burrow movement is like giving Toss DTs that are 1/10th the cost and you can make 5 per warp in
in order to stop burrow move banelings youd need detection and defense at every base, for Terran that means they have to have a missile turret and a full bunker at every single base they ever want to take
and youd have to have enough defense that they dont jsut make 8 banelings, lose a couple to static and take everything out anyway
and Terran could have to literally chain scan there army to actually keep it safe, if there army doesnt have detection for 3 seconds they instantly lose
DTs are already strong in all stages of the game giving Zerg cheap DTs that have alot more potential for damage is not a good idea Detection at every base is already standard, I mean, oh my god, infested terran harass is so broken, terran has to put a turret at every base to deny burrow move roaches and ifnested terran harass! And infestor-FG drops, so broken! Omg, DTs, an invisible unit that 1-shots workers that every 3+ base toss gets, terran needs a turret at every base and zerg a spore! It's really not that outrageous. I would like to know why blizzard removed it, not why someone who is thinking in terms of WOL why it's a bad idea. As far as it is now, every fucking new thing in HOTS is fucking ridiculous and brokenly OP. It's how you make a new game and new expansion, just introduce crazy shit, and balance it out afterwards. Obviously, there was a problem with it, but I'd like to hear what the official reason it was removed for. DTs kill one worker every few seconds and cost more then 4 banelings 2 banelings and kill upwards of 20 workers in a single second if its DTs you can pull the workers away, if its roachs you can pull the workers away, if tis infesters not only did the Zerg waste fungals/ITs that could be critical in the actualbattle but there likely to lose 300 gas 100 minerals and 50 gas can trade for 1000 minerals worth of workers especiall;y in late game scenarios (which were talking about) when your 4th/5th/6th bases are 99% of the time completely undefended burrow move banelings require your opponent to invest a ton of resources on defenses when you dont actually even have to spend anything, its literally a no risk extremely high reward upgrade and it got removed and thats even ignoring its abilty in actual engagements of ZvT seeing the burrowed banelings move in on your army is a lot harder then seeing the actual banelings so you wont know how to split up your army possibly to evade the banelings you cant see and as drop defense, 2 banelings burrowed at every base means they cant drop because they cant stop the one money baneling detenation that kills the entire drop people seem to forget the game is not balanced only for GSL even if the tip top pros would rarely take damage from burrowed banelings at everything below masters burrow banelings would literally win Zerg every single game and burrow move banelings are alot more dangerous then you think, in ZvZ at all levels you can pretty mcuh burrow move in 2 infesters whenever you want and spam infested terrans, Zerg never get spore crawlers unless there mutas ZvT you might need to build a missile turret next to your planetary fortress. you cn easily sneak around a planetary outside its range, its range pretty much only covers the mineral line and by the time the planetary can shoot the banelings it will kill SCVs by late game you have +1 melee so they one shot SCVs so have one baneling sent to each side of the mineral line and one gets shot by the planetary and kills 70% of one side and the other detonates on place and kills the entire other half of the mineral line Also, you forgot the biggest advantage of DTs... they can kill bases, not just the workers. You could do it with 20 banelings maybe... doesn't sound very cost effective to me though..... you need an absolute minimum of 4 DTs to kill a hatchery before an overseer can morph (the only scenario a DT should ever kill a base) so thats equal to 16 banelings and since its likely to have 3/3 that will probably kill a base Yeah but the missile turret will still scout the banelings and if you lose workers to detected banelings you deserve to lose them... Also late game dts it is very hard to handle dts on big maps. DTs force you to focus on them, because you don't want to lose bases, and can move your army out of position. show me a single player who has the map awareness to notice 2 tiny itty bitty dots on the minimap that barely cross the fring of his vision especially if the Zerg is doing other things that force his attention Err, me for one. I've hard situations where banelings come at my third from down a ramp and I move my workers in time. As soon as I see a different color on my map that I don't know about I will investigate it. I'm only low masters, I can only imagine GMs/GSL players could do it better. thats your third, since it was targetted i assume it was a mid game scenario where noone really has a fourth and your both in mid tier trying to establish the economy to move up to T3 in other words not the scenario were talking about Actually it can be any time of the game, because as soon as I see a different color on my minimap I react. It's the same for lots of people. Also, in a real game it's not always as simple as walking your cloaked units from your base to theres. You also put your detectors in places where the banelings will walk past, not always at your base. Honestly, if you are saying this is OP then you must thing baneling drops into mineral lines is OP, because they can come out of no where. However, I react to them alot of the time, sometimes I don't, but that's my own fault. I see players always move away in time. There are just so many avenues in which you can avoid burrowed banelings, it doesn't make sense to me being OP. baneling drops require a much larger investment and can pretty mcuh only be used against protoss so no the scenario there used is much smaller so no there not OP but especially at lower levels its impossible for say a gold league to actually defend against burrowed banelings especailly after 3 bases burrowed banelings would be like hellions before the nerf, even if the first 3 attempts fail completely if it works jsut one time it makes every hellion you made well worth it because you kill an entire mineral line and win it requires constant vigilance from the other side they have to have detection with there army and at every base all the time, if they dont have detection for there army (scans dont count) they HAVE to mvoe back until they do have detection because the burrowed banelings will massacre them I can assure you, I can't imagine in gold league matches going past 3 bases and if they do I can't imagine players doing triple prong baneling dumps in peoples mineral lines. Also, it won't be like hellions before the nerf because it's late game ZvT. The hellions were a problem because you would keep doing hellion drops before the thirteen mark until you get your lucky 20 kill mineral line shot. Also what about double fungals on mineral lines when you get infestors behind someones base? You don't see that happening every game, infact you almost get people going infested terrans and shooting for the base because the base is more important, not the workers. (Not to say workers aren't important). Also, if you don't have detection by the time zerg has hive you probably shouldn't be playing this game. You could argue ravens are a bit harder to get, but ravens are becoming alot more used in the meta game, so I don't see it being an issue.
commiting infester youll probably lose to kill 20 workers: 300 gas
commiting 2 banelings youll definently lose to kill 20 workers: 50 gas
for the infesters you have tow atch them because you have to manually use the fungals and wait for one fungal to finish bfore you fungal again so nay good terran kills both infesters
for banelings just shift que them and forget them
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On August 23 2012 23:20 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 23:18 blug wrote:On August 23 2012 22:42 Forikorder wrote:On August 23 2012 22:33 blug wrote:On August 23 2012 22:27 Forikorder wrote:On August 23 2012 22:23 blug wrote:On August 23 2012 22:21 Forikorder wrote:On August 23 2012 22:19 blug wrote:On August 23 2012 22:09 Forikorder wrote:On August 23 2012 17:00 Belial88 wrote:
[quote]
Detection at every base is already standard, I mean, oh my god, infested terran harass is so broken, terran has to put a turret at every base to deny burrow move roaches and ifnested terran harass! And infestor-FG drops, so broken! Omg, DTs, an invisible unit that 1-shots workers that every 3+ base toss gets, terran needs a turret at every base and zerg a spore!
It's really not that outrageous. I would like to know why blizzard removed it, not why someone who is thinking in terms of WOL why it's a bad idea. As far as it is now, every fucking new thing in HOTS is fucking ridiculous and brokenly OP. It's how you make a new game and new expansion, just introduce crazy shit, and balance it out afterwards.
Obviously, there was a problem with it, but I'd like to hear what the official reason it was removed for. DTs kill one worker every few seconds and cost more then 4 banelings 2 banelings and kill upwards of 20 workers in a single second if its DTs you can pull the workers away, if its roachs you can pull the workers away, if tis infesters not only did the Zerg waste fungals/ITs that could be critical in the actualbattle but there likely to lose 300 gas 100 minerals and 50 gas can trade for 1000 minerals worth of workers especiall;y in late game scenarios (which were talking about) when your 4th/5th/6th bases are 99% of the time completely undefended burrow move banelings require your opponent to invest a ton of resources on defenses when you dont actually even have to spend anything, its literally a no risk extremely high reward upgrade and it got removed and thats even ignoring its abilty in actual engagements of ZvT seeing the burrowed banelings move in on your army is a lot harder then seeing the actual banelings so you wont know how to split up your army possibly to evade the banelings you cant see and as drop defense, 2 banelings burrowed at every base means they cant drop because they cant stop the one money baneling detenation that kills the entire drop people seem to forget the game is not balanced only for GSL even if the tip top pros would rarely take damage from burrowed banelings at everything below masters burrow banelings would literally win Zerg every single game and burrow move banelings are alot more dangerous then you think, in ZvZ at all levels you can pretty mcuh burrow move in 2 infesters whenever you want and spam infested terrans, Zerg never get spore crawlers unless there mutas ZvT you might need to build a missile turret next to your planetary fortress. you cn easily sneak around a planetary outside its range, its range pretty much only covers the mineral line and by the time the planetary can shoot the banelings it will kill SCVs by late game you have +1 melee so they one shot SCVs so have one baneling sent to each side of the mineral line and one gets shot by the planetary and kills 70% of one side and the other detonates on place and kills the entire other half of the mineral line Also, you forgot the biggest advantage of DTs... they can kill bases, not just the workers. You could do it with 20 banelings maybe... doesn't sound very cost effective to me though..... you need an absolute minimum of 4 DTs to kill a hatchery before an overseer can morph (the only scenario a DT should ever kill a base) so thats equal to 16 banelings and since its likely to have 3/3 that will probably kill a base Yeah but the missile turret will still scout the banelings and if you lose workers to detected banelings you deserve to lose them... Also late game dts it is very hard to handle dts on big maps. DTs force you to focus on them, because you don't want to lose bases, and can move your army out of position. show me a single player who has the map awareness to notice 2 tiny itty bitty dots on the minimap that barely cross the fring of his vision especially if the Zerg is doing other things that force his attention Err, me for one. I've hard situations where banelings come at my third from down a ramp and I move my workers in time. As soon as I see a different color on my map that I don't know about I will investigate it. I'm only low masters, I can only imagine GMs/GSL players could do it better. thats your third, since it was targetted i assume it was a mid game scenario where noone really has a fourth and your both in mid tier trying to establish the economy to move up to T3 in other words not the scenario were talking about Actually it can be any time of the game, because as soon as I see a different color on my minimap I react. It's the same for lots of people. Also, in a real game it's not always as simple as walking your cloaked units from your base to theres. You also put your detectors in places where the banelings will walk past, not always at your base. Honestly, if you are saying this is OP then you must thing baneling drops into mineral lines is OP, because they can come out of no where. However, I react to them alot of the time, sometimes I don't, but that's my own fault. I see players always move away in time. There are just so many avenues in which you can avoid burrowed banelings, it doesn't make sense to me being OP. baneling drops require a much larger investment and can pretty mcuh only be used against protoss so no the scenario there used is much smaller so no there not OP but especially at lower levels its impossible for say a gold league to actually defend against burrowed banelings especailly after 3 bases burrowed banelings would be like hellions before the nerf, even if the first 3 attempts fail completely if it works jsut one time it makes every hellion you made well worth it because you kill an entire mineral line and win it requires constant vigilance from the other side they have to have detection with there army and at every base all the time, if they dont have detection for there army (scans dont count) they HAVE to mvoe back until they do have detection because the burrowed banelings will massacre them I can assure you, I can't imagine in gold league matches going past 3 bases and if they do I can't imagine players doing triple prong baneling dumps in peoples mineral lines. Also, it won't be like hellions before the nerf because it's late game ZvT. The hellions were a problem because you would keep doing hellion drops before the thirteen mark until you get your lucky 20 kill mineral line shot. Also what about double fungals on mineral lines when you get infestors behind someones base? You don't see that happening every game, infact you almost get people going infested terrans and shooting for the base because the base is more important, not the workers. (Not to say workers aren't important). Also, if you don't have detection by the time zerg has hive you probably shouldn't be playing this game. You could argue ravens are a bit harder to get, but ravens are becoming alot more used in the meta game, so I don't see it being an issue. commiting infester youll probably lose to kill 20 workers: 300 gas commiting 2 banelings youll definently lose to kill 20 workers: 50 gas for the infesters you have tow atch them because you have to manually use the fungals and wait for one fungal to finish bfore you fungal again so nay good terran kills both infesters for banelings just shift que them and forget them
Wait, are you seriously saying that people at high level can respond to infestors in under 4 seconds? I have done infestor behind mineral line fungals for a long time, and 90% of the time I get away with my infestors. That kinda makes up for the extra gas me thinks.
You only lose your infestors when the other player catches on. Anyways, I'm done arguing, because I know I'm right. Theres no debate in saying that mineral line harrass is not going to be a problem.
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On August 23 2012 23:47 blug wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 23:20 Forikorder wrote:On August 23 2012 23:18 blug wrote:On August 23 2012 22:42 Forikorder wrote:On August 23 2012 22:33 blug wrote:On August 23 2012 22:27 Forikorder wrote:On August 23 2012 22:23 blug wrote:On August 23 2012 22:21 Forikorder wrote:On August 23 2012 22:19 blug wrote:On August 23 2012 22:09 Forikorder wrote:
[quote]
DTs kill one worker every few seconds and cost more then 4 banelings
2 banelings and kill upwards of 20 workers in a single second
if its DTs you can pull the workers away, if its roachs you can pull the workers away, if tis infesters not only did the Zerg waste fungals/ITs that could be critical in the actualbattle but there likely to lose 300 gas
100 minerals and 50 gas can trade for 1000 minerals worth of workers
especiall;y in late game scenarios (which were talking about) when your 4th/5th/6th bases are 99% of the time completely undefended burrow move banelings require your opponent to invest a ton of resources on defenses when you dont actually even have to spend anything, its literally a no risk extremely high reward upgrade and it got removed
and thats even ignoring its abilty in actual engagements of ZvT seeing the burrowed banelings move in on your army is a lot harder then seeing the actual banelings so you wont know how to split up your army possibly to evade the banelings you cant see
and as drop defense, 2 banelings burrowed at every base means they cant drop because they cant stop the one money baneling detenation that kills the entire drop
people seem to forget the game is not balanced only for GSL even if the tip top pros would rarely take damage from burrowed banelings at everything below masters burrow banelings would literally win Zerg every single game
and burrow move banelings are alot more dangerous then you think, in ZvZ at all levels you can pretty mcuh burrow move in 2 infesters whenever you want and spam infested terrans, Zerg never get spore crawlers unless there mutas
[quote]
you cn easily sneak around a planetary outside its range, its range pretty much only covers the mineral line and by the time the planetary can shoot the banelings it will kill SCVs
by late game you have +1 melee so they one shot SCVs so have one baneling sent to each side of the mineral line and one gets shot by the planetary and kills 70% of one side and the other detonates on place and kills the entire other half of the mineral line
[quote]
you need an absolute minimum of 4 DTs to kill a hatchery before an overseer can morph (the only scenario a DT should ever kill a base) so thats equal to 16 banelings and since its likely to have 3/3 that will probably kill a base Yeah but the missile turret will still scout the banelings and if you lose workers to detected banelings you deserve to lose them... Also late game dts it is very hard to handle dts on big maps. DTs force you to focus on them, because you don't want to lose bases, and can move your army out of position. show me a single player who has the map awareness to notice 2 tiny itty bitty dots on the minimap that barely cross the fring of his vision especially if the Zerg is doing other things that force his attention Err, me for one. I've hard situations where banelings come at my third from down a ramp and I move my workers in time. As soon as I see a different color on my map that I don't know about I will investigate it. I'm only low masters, I can only imagine GMs/GSL players could do it better. thats your third, since it was targetted i assume it was a mid game scenario where noone really has a fourth and your both in mid tier trying to establish the economy to move up to T3 in other words not the scenario were talking about Actually it can be any time of the game, because as soon as I see a different color on my minimap I react. It's the same for lots of people. Also, in a real game it's not always as simple as walking your cloaked units from your base to theres. You also put your detectors in places where the banelings will walk past, not always at your base. Honestly, if you are saying this is OP then you must thing baneling drops into mineral lines is OP, because they can come out of no where. However, I react to them alot of the time, sometimes I don't, but that's my own fault. I see players always move away in time. There are just so many avenues in which you can avoid burrowed banelings, it doesn't make sense to me being OP. baneling drops require a much larger investment and can pretty mcuh only be used against protoss so no the scenario there used is much smaller so no there not OP but especially at lower levels its impossible for say a gold league to actually defend against burrowed banelings especailly after 3 bases burrowed banelings would be like hellions before the nerf, even if the first 3 attempts fail completely if it works jsut one time it makes every hellion you made well worth it because you kill an entire mineral line and win it requires constant vigilance from the other side they have to have detection with there army and at every base all the time, if they dont have detection for there army (scans dont count) they HAVE to mvoe back until they do have detection because the burrowed banelings will massacre them I can assure you, I can't imagine in gold league matches going past 3 bases and if they do I can't imagine players doing triple prong baneling dumps in peoples mineral lines. Also, it won't be like hellions before the nerf because it's late game ZvT. The hellions were a problem because you would keep doing hellion drops before the thirteen mark until you get your lucky 20 kill mineral line shot. Also what about double fungals on mineral lines when you get infestors behind someones base? You don't see that happening every game, infact you almost get people going infested terrans and shooting for the base because the base is more important, not the workers. (Not to say workers aren't important). Also, if you don't have detection by the time zerg has hive you probably shouldn't be playing this game. You could argue ravens are a bit harder to get, but ravens are becoming alot more used in the meta game, so I don't see it being an issue. commiting infester youll probably lose to kill 20 workers: 300 gas commiting 2 banelings youll definently lose to kill 20 workers: 50 gas for the infesters you have tow atch them because you have to manually use the fungals and wait for one fungal to finish bfore you fungal again so nay good terran kills both infesters for banelings just shift que them and forget them Wait, are you seriously saying that people at high level can respond to infestors in under 4 seconds? I have done infestor behind mineral line fungals for a long time, and 90% of the time I get away with my infestors. That kinda makes up for the extra gas me thinks. You only lose your infestors when the other player catches on. Anyways, I'm done arguing, because I know I'm right. Theres no debate in saying that mineral line harrass is not going to be a problem.
if palyers are good enough to spot 2 tiny dots on the minimap there good enough to get units to intercept the infesters in time
also any countermeasure that stops burrowed banelings also stops infesters
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EPT
