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Qwyn
United States2781 Posts
On August 23 2012 17:28 blade55555 wrote: Again hive tech what zerg doesn't have an overseer out when they are at hive tech? I see most zergs getting four to six overseers along with the broodlord infestor army, lol. Moving burrowed banelings = not a problem in my eyes. If your whole army blows up 16 minutes in the game due to not having detection you deserve to lose, lol. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7032 Posts
On August 23 2012 17:37 Qwyn wrote: I see most zergs getting four to six overseers along with the broodlord infestor army, lol. Moving burrowed banelings = not a problem in my eyes. If your whole army blows up 16 minutes in the game due to not having detection you deserve to lose, lol. You're missing the point. Moving burrowed banelings are so strong they force overseers and therefore won't be used. Dark templar or banshees do not force overseers blindly, because if you are caught without detection you can always retreat, chrono an observer, make a panic overseer, wait for a scan etc. The balance for invisible units is really fragile, if they're too strong they simply force detection and will be hard countered. | ||
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Qwyn
United States2781 Posts
On August 23 2012 17:53 Grumbels wrote: You're missing the point. Moving burrowed banelings are so strong they force overseers and therefore won't be used. Dark templar or banshees do not force overseers blindly, because if you are caught without detection you can always retreat, chrono an observer, make a panic overseer, wait for a scan etc. The balance for invisible units is really fragile, if they're too strong they simply force detection and will be hard countered. Eh? I'm not missing the point. Burrowed banelings achieve the same effect WITHOUT movement. They FORCE detection. Whether in the form of scans, overseers, observers. That is how they function. Movement would be a Hive tech upgrade. Meaning that, if you do lose to burrowed moving banelings, and do not have detection, you deserve to lose. TvZ yo? Burrowed banes require scans from terran to move out. And still marine clumps get blown up. Same interaction. Forcing detection is good. That should happen. That is the guaranteed damage that comes of using cloaked units. Analogy.Mutas force turrets. That is why they are used, so that they FORCE T to defend against them, meaning guaranteed damage. Same thing. Burrowed banelings would and ARE used, so that they force detection. If an opposing player EVER doesn't get detection, they suffer the consequences. It forces extra detection from them and delays their build. That's the point. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7032 Posts
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blug
Australia623 Posts
On August 23 2012 18:17 Grumbels wrote: Burrowed banelings do not force detection, what are you talking about? If they forced detection every terran would get a raven. They don't, instead they take risks and use scans on places they think have burrowed banelings. As a result, you're not forced to have detection. Furthermore, you're only at risk when you move out, not all the time. I don't think that is 100% true... as soon as someone goes DTs, burrowed infestors harrass, or cloaked banshees I feel like I need to get some form of static detection. If anything, it forces detection even more because banelings do their damage instantly. You can't really comsat after a baneling has detonated lol. | ||
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blug
Australia623 Posts
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Startyr
Scotland188 Posts
Also for it to be remotely balanced the movement speed would have to be very slow and if everyone has detection just rolling in at full speed would be better. As another thought how would you feel if the widow mine could move while burrowed? | ||
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blug
Australia623 Posts
On August 23 2012 18:22 Startyr wrote: With Dts or banshees, it is possible to run away with workers until detection is ready and actually not take much damage, it takes a while for them to kill buildings and it is possible to transfuse or repair which again buys time. Banelings can destroy an entire worker line in an instant, even if you can see them coming, likewise with buildings. It serves a similar role to putting banelings in overlords but makes it much easier and more powerful, taking skill out of the game. Also for it to be remotely balanced the movement speed would have to be very slow and if everyone has detection just rolling in at full speed would be better. As another thought how would you feel if the widow mine could move while burrowed? Yeah but banelings get a massive disadvantage that you always lose the banelings. Also they die really really fast. Honestly, if I lose 10 to 15 workers late game to banelings, it's not that bad anyways. I'll just get static detection at every base and leave it at that. It's hive tech anyways, so it will only be late game, where workers become less and less useful. (Terran won't be to upset losing workers late game when they have a heavy amount of mules). You can't really call it unbalanced in zvz since both races have it. Also in ZvP, you will rarely find a base where you don't have photon cannons due to run bys. I honestly think it is going to be remarkably average for late game harrass. I think it will be more useful go underneath an unprepared terran and popping up, similar to do it with roaches now. | ||
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Qwyn
United States2781 Posts
On August 23 2012 18:17 Grumbels wrote: Burrowed banelings do not force detection, what are you talking about? If they forced detection every terran would get a raven. They don't, instead they take risks and use scans on places they think have burrowed banelings. As a result, you're not forced to have detection. Furthermore, you're only at risk when you move out, not all the time. Scans are detection. Using them wastes a potential mule. That in and of itself, is damage. In choosing to use scans they take risks. And because they do not get a raven, bombs do go off. I'll stop talking about baneling burrow move b/c it's not in the game anymore. Terran players weren't using ravens because they weren't easily incorporated into the BO. Now more players are doing so. And if burrowed banelings were used more often then they would force terrans to either use a crapton of scans, or get a raven. Cause and effect. If they were made a staple of ZvT then we would see a general redesign of BOs. As to the "not all the time." Aren't most forms of cloaked units in this game dangerous all the time without detection? Banshees for one. DTs for another. And I could see an easy prevention of burrowed baneling damage without getting detection - just spread out your units. As Terrans already do. EDIT: I do see your reasoning though. But the major key here is that the upgrade was Hive tech. That means that there are clear indicators and time periods when the upgrade would come into effect. And it is perfectly reasonable to incorporate detection into your play as a required response against burrowed moving banes. Just as other compositions or tech require responses. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7032 Posts
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Qwyn
United States2781 Posts
On August 23 2012 18:37 Grumbels wrote: Alright, when I say "force detection", I mean you need to have detection blindly, not afterwards. DTs, banshees both allow you to be caught off-guard and survive. Burrow-move banelings instantly kill your entire army (not sure why you guys keep talking about workers) and then there is no coming back, you're just dead. That's why they force detection blindly every time a zerg gets hive. (of course I'm not certain why Blizzard removed it) Yeah I got that. I see what you're saying, and it makes sense. Though there are some cases where DTs and banshees don't allow you to be caught off-guard and survive. In a way all players already compensate for the possibility. Evos, extra scan (rare), engineering bay, early robo. Burrowed, movable banelings are similar, just much more severe in consequence (you also have to consider the amount of gas, I mean -holy balls). | ||
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pallad
Poland1958 Posts
On August 23 2012 18:21 blug wrote: I thought burrowed banelings would be OP, but how are they any different from DTs or anything cloaked? They have splash dmg.. ? As zerg player i think burrowed will be OP , maby they should change banes dmg , when underground by 1/3 or something. | ||
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Existor
Russian Federation4295 Posts
On August 23 2012 18:37 Grumbels wrote: Alright, when I say "force detection", I mean you need to have detection blindly, not afterwards. DTs, banshees both allow you to be caught off-guard and survive. Burrow-move banelings instantly kill your entire army (not sure why you guys keep talking about workers) and then there is no coming back, you're just dead. That's why they force detection blindly every time a zerg gets hive. (of course I'm not certain why Blizzard removed it) Why you discuss burrow bane movement if it was removed long time ago?? | ||
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blug
Australia623 Posts
On August 23 2012 21:20 pallad wrote: They have splash dmg.. ? As zerg player i think burrowed will be OP , maby they should change banes dmg , when underground by 1/3 or something. Yeah, but they basically get one shot and they also move much slower while burrowed. Also they die once they do there damage. They are also hive tech which is 15 minutes+. I can 100% assure you they won't be game breaking. | ||
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PatouPower
Canada1119 Posts
On August 23 2012 18:21 blug wrote: I thought burrowed banelings would be OP, but how are they any different from DTs or anything cloaked? 1. Burrowed units' shadow have always been harder to see than the cloaking, especially if the unit is small. Therefore, it's harder to spot them and THEN bring detection (like people do with observers or dts). 2. They do massive AoE damage so that, once again, it's impossible to be reactive to it. A DT killing 3 workers and then being scanned can be forgiving, but not 30 marines blowing in one detonation. Basically, just imagine a classic late game scenario where a zerg player gets harassed hardcore by DTs because he has a lot of bases and simply forgot detection on some of them. With DTs it is forgiving because you can always escape with your workers or bring detection, losing only a handful of them in the process. But with banelings, that tiny error can result in 30 workers killed. For me, it's too little risk for too high of a reward. I can't say that the idea of finally forcing Terrans to make that good unit called raven instead of relying 100% on scans doesn't please me though. | ||
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mumming
Faroe Islands256 Posts
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blug
Australia623 Posts
On August 23 2012 21:50 PatouPower wrote: 1. Burrowed units' shadow have always been harder to see than the cloaking, especially if the unit is small. Therefore, it's harder to spot them and THEN bring detection (like people do with observers or dts). 2. They do massive AoE damage so that, once again, it's impossible to be reactive to it. A DT killing 3 workers and then being scanned can be forgiving, but not 30 marines blowing in one detonation. Yeah but this is hive tech, so it deserves to be better. And yes, different things do different things. Also, it's going to be late game, if you lose 15 workers to banelings blowing up it's not the end of the world, and that's assuming you don't have some kind of detection (which you should anyways.) ZvP you always have photon cannons at bases. ZvZ is balanced... ZvT you might need to build a missile turret next to your planetary fortress. Doesn't sound that bad to me to be honest. The only reason DTs and banshees do well is because there is a paticular timing for them. This upgrade is going to be done by zergs who just get it for the sake of it in the late game. If you don't have detection at each base at late game then your fault. It's not OP. Also, you forgot the biggest advantage of DTs... they can kill bases, not just the workers. You could do it with 20 banelings maybe... doesn't sound very cost effective to me though..... I get that feeling you might be some protoss/terran who doesn't like the idea of having to worry about late game detection against zerg. | ||
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Achaia
United States643 Posts
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Forikorder
Canada8840 Posts
On August 23 2012 17:00 Belial88 wrote: Detection at every base is already standard, I mean, oh my god, infested terran harass is so broken, terran has to put a turret at every base to deny burrow move roaches and ifnested terran harass! And infestor-FG drops, so broken! Omg, DTs, an invisible unit that 1-shots workers that every 3+ base toss gets, terran needs a turret at every base and zerg a spore! It's really not that outrageous. I would like to know why blizzard removed it, not why someone who is thinking in terms of WOL why it's a bad idea. As far as it is now, every fucking new thing in HOTS is fucking ridiculous and brokenly OP. It's how you make a new game and new expansion, just introduce crazy shit, and balance it out afterwards. Obviously, there was a problem with it, but I'd like to hear what the official reason it was removed for. DTs kill one worker every few seconds and cost more then 4 banelings 2 banelings and kill upwards of 20 workers in a single second if its DTs you can pull the workers away, if its roachs you can pull the workers away, if tis infesters not only did the Zerg waste fungals/ITs that could be critical in the actualbattle but there likely to lose 300 gas 100 minerals and 50 gas can trade for 1000 minerals worth of workers especiall;y in late game scenarios (which were talking about) when your 4th/5th/6th bases are 99% of the time completely undefended burrow move banelings require your opponent to invest a ton of resources on defenses when you dont actually even have to spend anything, its literally a no risk extremely high reward upgrade and it got removed and thats even ignoring its abilty in actual engagements of ZvT seeing the burrowed banelings move in on your army is a lot harder then seeing the actual banelings so you wont know how to split up your army possibly to evade the banelings you cant see and as drop defense, 2 banelings burrowed at every base means they cant drop because they cant stop the one money baneling detenation that kills the entire drop people seem to forget the game is not balanced only for GSL even if the tip top pros would rarely take damage from burrowed banelings at everything below masters burrow banelings would literally win Zerg every single game and burrow move banelings are alot more dangerous then you think, in ZvZ at all levels you can pretty mcuh burrow move in 2 infesters whenever you want and spam infested terrans, Zerg never get spore crawlers unless there mutas ZvT you might need to build a missile turret next to your planetary fortress. you cn easily sneak around a planetary outside its range, its range pretty much only covers the mineral line and by the time the planetary can shoot the banelings it will kill SCVs by late game you have +1 melee so they one shot SCVs so have one baneling sent to each side of the mineral line and one gets shot by the planetary and kills 70% of one side and the other detonates on place and kills the entire other half of the mineral line Also, you forgot the biggest advantage of DTs... they can kill bases, not just the workers. You could do it with 20 banelings maybe... doesn't sound very cost effective to me though..... you need an absolute minimum of 4 DTs to kill a hatchery before an overseer can morph (the only scenario a DT should ever kill a base) so thats equal to 16 banelings and since its likely to have 3/3 that will probably kill a base | ||
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blug
Australia623 Posts
On August 23 2012 22:09 Forikorder wrote: DTs kill one worker every few seconds and cost more then 4 banelings 2 banelings and kill upwards of 20 workers in a single second if its DTs you can pull the workers away, if its roachs you can pull the workers away, if tis infesters not only did the Zerg waste fungals/ITs that could be critical in the actualbattle but there likely to lose 300 gas 100 minerals and 50 gas can trade for 1000 minerals worth of workers especiall;y in late game scenarios (which were talking about) when your 4th/5th/6th bases are 99% of the time completely undefended burrow move banelings require your opponent to invest a ton of resources on defenses when you dont actually even have to spend anything, its literally a no risk extremely high reward upgrade and it got removed and thats even ignoring its abilty in actual engagements of ZvT seeing the burrowed banelings move in on your army is a lot harder then seeing the actual banelings so you wont know how to split up your army possibly to evade the banelings you cant see and as drop defense, 2 banelings burrowed at every base means they cant drop because they cant stop the one money baneling detenation that kills the entire drop people seem to forget the game is not balanced only for GSL even if the tip top pros would rarely take damage from burrowed banelings at everything below masters burrow banelings would literally win Zerg every single game and burrow move banelings are alot more dangerous then you think, in ZvZ at all levels you can pretty mcuh burrow move in 2 infesters whenever you want and spam infested terrans, Zerg never get spore crawlers unless there mutas You know, Because DTs can't one shot workers and still live and also destroy a base. Also, banelings destroying 20 workers would take around 6 banelings, all positioned properly. Losing 6 banelings for 20 workers is actually a pretty average trade towards late game when people are floating lots of money, obviously the banelings end up in favor, but I'm just saying.... both units have there ups and downs. | ||
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