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Not sure why you guys are arguing about cost effectiveness of the widow mine. The entire idea around the unit is to be a cost effective zoning deterrent. If it was not cost effective they would be completely useless.
As for 1 mine vs muta harass. Split off the 1 muta and kill workers/buildings. You come out ahead.
There's also the simple fact that... no one has the beta yet. If it's broken then we'll find out soon enough.
On August 17 2012 23:53 Snowbear wrote:
I got the feeling that blizzard will remove the splash damage from the mines. Reason? Drops. Low level players will lose their whole mineral line by 4 dropped mines. Even pro's miss drops somethimes.
That would be a terrible reason to nerf them considering you can do the same thing with storm/baneling drops.
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On August 17 2012 23:22 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2012 23:18 SupItsG wrote:On August 17 2012 23:13 Ramiz1989 wrote:On August 17 2012 23:04 Snowbear wrote:
It's blizzard. They will nerf OP things. I know, I am following that logic, but I am not convinced. Currently Widow Mine doesn't cost a lot, 75/25, but it prevents Muta harass completely, which is retarded. There is no sane Zerg that will trade Mutas that are 100/100 for Widow Mines, and currently Widow Mine does 200 damage to single target unit, and they even BUFFED that damage... We will see, but I hope for more diversity, not less. It doesn't pervent muta harass. And any zerg who has been playing for more than 5 minutes or is older than 4 years old will be able to pull 1 muta out of his control group in 10 seconds. That is not the point, you won't be trading one Muta that cost 100/100 for Mine that cost 75/25. Of course I will micro, but he can just put 5-6 Mines in the mineral line and 1 Turret, and I will be the at loss if I engage even with 15+ Mutas, not him.
Very narrow biased logic. Widow mines don't move at a ridiculous 3.75 speed and fly and have DPS and 120 HP.
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On August 17 2012 23:53 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2012 23:13 Ramiz1989 wrote:On August 17 2012 23:04 Snowbear wrote:
It's blizzard. They will nerf OP things. I know, I am following that logic, but I am not convinced. Currently Widow Mine doesn't cost a lot, 75/25, but it prevents Muta harass completely, which is retarded. There is no sane Zerg that will trade Mutas that are 100/100 for Widow Mines, and currently Widow Mine does 200 damage to single target unit, and they even BUFFED that damage... We will see, but I hope for more diversity, not less. Please stop whining before the game is even in beta. If it's OP then blizzard WILL NERF IT. Ghost snipe was OP so blizzard nerfed it. Tanks were OP so blizzard nerfed them. Reapers were OP so blizzard nerfed them. I got the feeling that blizzard will remove the splash damage from the mines. Reason? Drops. Low level players will lose their whole mineral line by 4 dropped mines. Even pro's miss drops somethimes.
Also, baneling drops are cheaper and banelings cost less than widow mines. 4 banelings clear a whole mineral line as well, and you can put 8 of them in an overlord. I don't see the problem and I'm saying that as a Zerg player. I will be able to see those mines burrow, latch on and take 10 sec to detonate - if I don't I'm playing in the wrong league.
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On August 17 2012 23:20 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2012 23:12 BeeNu wrote:On August 17 2012 23:02 Ramiz1989 wrote:On August 17 2012 22:32 CaptainCrush wrote:On August 17 2012 22:28 Qikz wrote:On August 17 2012 22:25 grindC wrote:On August 17 2012 22:22 SarcasmMonster wrote:On August 17 2012 22:21 grindC wrote:
Zerglings and marines are pretty cost efficient trades for widowmines, but I'm quite curious, what protoss will do against those... I genuinely don't know to be honest. Something like BW mine clearing I guess. Yeah... but I mean... it seems so easy for Terran and Zerg to clear them out. Protoss really has no equivalent... except in lategame maybe... trading a few zealots for widowmines won't be that much of a problem I feel... early-midgame seems problematic though. I was figuring hallucination... but that's a bit of an investment aswell. You don't need to do that, you have the unit called the observer. You then use stalkers to snipe the mines  Lol, was going to say the same. If you move out against a terran without an observer then you probably deserve to take those mines to the face. A protoss will likely have colossus at that point to so the mines will be pretty useless even in midgame TvP. It is not as easy as it sounds, since they are no Brood War mines, they are Widow Mines, that can target air, so you have to clear them slowly, or else you will be losing Observers left and right. You can't just send Observers to the enemy base anymore without thinking. I like it, and I am really looking forward the Widow mines, I just hope that they won't be overpowered. Um, do you actually know if the Mines latch on to invisible units or you need to be able to see them first? Sounds like you're just guessing to me. The mines auto-attack but they can't detect last time I checked. Read few posts before your on the same page, the guy that played at MLG speaks about it, and how he killed Cloaked Banshee of his Friend with a Mine...
Wait I'm starting to get confused... does the mine do splash damage to air units?
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They're trying to Balance the WM like a Baneling (the version at gamescon). Now it does instant aoe damage just like the Bane, but it has some pros e cons.
Cons:
- You can't make 20 of it at same time, and, plus, it takes some factory time (you could be building BHs).
- It'll have to burrow before attacks, so it can't be used in a normal battle with the bio/mechball.
- It doesn't have a uniform AoE damage. Something like the Seeker Missile. It'll probalby stacks, but the damge will fall considerably with the radius.
- It'll break Deathballs just like banes.
Pros:
- It affects air.
- It does more damage per cost.
- Its damage stacks.
It'll be fun playing with them. Finally terran will have a cheaper way to control map (PFs and Tanks are way to expnsive in the early-mid game =/).
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On August 17 2012 23:58 DemigodcelpH wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2012 23:22 Ramiz1989 wrote:On August 17 2012 23:18 SupItsG wrote:On August 17 2012 23:13 Ramiz1989 wrote:On August 17 2012 23:04 Snowbear wrote:
It's blizzard. They will nerf OP things. I know, I am following that logic, but I am not convinced. Currently Widow Mine doesn't cost a lot, 75/25, but it prevents Muta harass completely, which is retarded. There is no sane Zerg that will trade Mutas that are 100/100 for Widow Mines, and currently Widow Mine does 200 damage to single target unit, and they even BUFFED that damage... We will see, but I hope for more diversity, not less. It doesn't pervent muta harass. And any zerg who has been playing for more than 5 minutes or is older than 4 years old will be able to pull 1 muta out of his control group in 10 seconds. That is not the point, you won't be trading one Muta that cost 100/100 for Mine that cost 75/25. Of course I will micro, but he can just put 5-6 Mines in the mineral line and 1 Turret, and I will be the at loss if I engage even with 15+ Mutas, not him. Very narrow biased logic. Widow mines don't move at a ridiculous 3.75 speed and fly and have DPS and 120 HP.
It is not narrow nor biased, it will completely shut down Muta harass, not the Mutalisks as unit, you will be able to play them as usual combined with other units, but you won't be harassing with them. So you want to enter his base with 15 Mutalisks, there may be even 10 Mines, be my guest.
I am not talking about different scenarios, just about Muta harass scenario.
Whole point is, if you could prevent that sort of damage, and minimize it, it would be cool, it would encourage micro, but this way, you will be trading what, 1 Mine for 1 Mutalisk? Yup, you won't do anything. And I am laughing about "just spread your Mutalisks", sure, you can't even mass that many Mutalisks as he can Mines.
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On August 18 2012 00:11 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2012 23:58 DemigodcelpH wrote:On August 17 2012 23:22 Ramiz1989 wrote:On August 17 2012 23:18 SupItsG wrote:On August 17 2012 23:13 Ramiz1989 wrote:On August 17 2012 23:04 Snowbear wrote:
It's blizzard. They will nerf OP things. I know, I am following that logic, but I am not convinced. Currently Widow Mine doesn't cost a lot, 75/25, but it prevents Muta harass completely, which is retarded. There is no sane Zerg that will trade Mutas that are 100/100 for Widow Mines, and currently Widow Mine does 200 damage to single target unit, and they even BUFFED that damage... We will see, but I hope for more diversity, not less. It doesn't pervent muta harass. And any zerg who has been playing for more than 5 minutes or is older than 4 years old will be able to pull 1 muta out of his control group in 10 seconds. That is not the point, you won't be trading one Muta that cost 100/100 for Mine that cost 75/25. Of course I will micro, but he can just put 5-6 Mines in the mineral line and 1 Turret, and I will be the at loss if I engage even with 15+ Mutas, not him. Very narrow biased logic. Widow mines don't move at a ridiculous 3.75 speed and fly and have DPS and 120 HP. It is not narrow nor biased, it will completely shut down Muta harass, not the Mutalisks as unit, you will be able to play them as usual combined with other units, but you won't be harassing with them. So you want to enter his base with 15 Mutalisks, there may be even 10 Mines, be my guest. I am not talking about different scenarios, just about Muta harass scenario. Whole point is, if you could prevent that sort of damage, and minimize it, it would be cool, it would encourage micro, but this way, you will be trading what, 1 Mine for 1 Mutalisk? Yup, you won't do anything. And I am laughing about "just spread your Mutalisks", sure, you can't even mass that many Mutalisks as he can Mines.
If there are 10 Marines in his base (which cost way less than these Mines would) your 15 Mutas still wouldn't do anything, so I don't see what the problem is.
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On August 18 2012 00:09 Herect wrote:
Cons:
- You can't make 20 of it at same time, and, plus, it takes some factory time (you could be building BHs).
- It'll have to burrow before attacks, so it can't be used in a normal battle with the bio/mechball.
- It doesn't have a uniform AoE damage. Something like the Seeker Missile. It'll probalby stacks, but the damge will fall considerably with the radius.
- It'll break Deathballs just like banes.
That's a con??
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On August 18 2012 00:22 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2012 00:11 Ramiz1989 wrote:On August 17 2012 23:58 DemigodcelpH wrote:On August 17 2012 23:22 Ramiz1989 wrote:On August 17 2012 23:18 SupItsG wrote:On August 17 2012 23:13 Ramiz1989 wrote:On August 17 2012 23:04 Snowbear wrote:
It's blizzard. They will nerf OP things. I know, I am following that logic, but I am not convinced. Currently Widow Mine doesn't cost a lot, 75/25, but it prevents Muta harass completely, which is retarded. There is no sane Zerg that will trade Mutas that are 100/100 for Widow Mines, and currently Widow Mine does 200 damage to single target unit, and they even BUFFED that damage... We will see, but I hope for more diversity, not less. It doesn't pervent muta harass. And any zerg who has been playing for more than 5 minutes or is older than 4 years old will be able to pull 1 muta out of his control group in 10 seconds. That is not the point, you won't be trading one Muta that cost 100/100 for Mine that cost 75/25. Of course I will micro, but he can just put 5-6 Mines in the mineral line and 1 Turret, and I will be the at loss if I engage even with 15+ Mutas, not him. Very narrow biased logic. Widow mines don't move at a ridiculous 3.75 speed and fly and have DPS and 120 HP. It is not narrow nor biased, it will completely shut down Muta harass, not the Mutalisks as unit, you will be able to play them as usual combined with other units, but you won't be harassing with them. So you want to enter his base with 15 Mutalisks, there may be even 10 Mines, be my guest. I am not talking about different scenarios, just about Muta harass scenario. Whole point is, if you could prevent that sort of damage, and minimize it, it would be cool, it would encourage micro, but this way, you will be trading what, 1 Mine for 1 Mutalisk? Yup, you won't do anything. And I am laughing about "just spread your Mutalisks", sure, you can't even mass that many Mutalisks as he can Mines. If there are 10 Marines in his base (which cost way less than these Mines would) your 15 Mutas still wouldn't do anything, so I don't see what the problem is.
Plus you could always just split the muta that has the mine on it off, once marines have stim you can't really pull back the injured muta if terran has decent targeting.
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On August 18 2012 00:45 xPabt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2012 00:09 Herect wrote:
Cons:
- You can't make 20 of it at same time, and, plus, it takes some factory time (you could be building BHs).
- It'll have to burrow before attacks, so it can't be used in a normal battle with the bio/mechball.
- It doesn't have a uniform AoE damage. Something like the Seeker Missile. It'll probalby stacks, but the damge will fall considerably with the radius.
- It'll break Deathballs just like banes.
That's a con??
I think he means "break" in the sense that it'll make them too strong. Imagine a mech Deathball surrounded by Mines. Wtf do you even do against that?
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On August 17 2012 23:58 Callynn wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2012 23:53 Snowbear wrote:On August 17 2012 23:13 Ramiz1989 wrote:On August 17 2012 23:04 Snowbear wrote:
It's blizzard. They will nerf OP things. I know, I am following that logic, but I am not convinced. Currently Widow Mine doesn't cost a lot, 75/25, but it prevents Muta harass completely, which is retarded. There is no sane Zerg that will trade Mutas that are 100/100 for Widow Mines, and currently Widow Mine does 200 damage to single target unit, and they even BUFFED that damage... We will see, but I hope for more diversity, not less. Please stop whining before the game is even in beta. If it's OP then blizzard WILL NERF IT. Ghost snipe was OP so blizzard nerfed it. Tanks were OP so blizzard nerfed them. Reapers were OP so blizzard nerfed them. I got the feeling that blizzard will remove the splash damage from the mines. Reason? Drops. Low level players will lose their whole mineral line by 4 dropped mines. Even pro's miss drops somethimes. Also, baneling drops are cheaper and banelings cost less than widow mines. 4 banelings clear a whole mineral line as well, and you can put 8 of them in an overlord. I don't see the problem and I'm saying that as a Zerg player. I will be able to see those mines burrow, latch on and take 10 sec to detonate - if I don't I'm playing in the wrong league.
Actually, you can only put 4 banelings in an overlord.
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On August 18 2012 00:22 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2012 00:11 Ramiz1989 wrote:On August 17 2012 23:58 DemigodcelpH wrote:On August 17 2012 23:22 Ramiz1989 wrote:On August 17 2012 23:18 SupItsG wrote:On August 17 2012 23:13 Ramiz1989 wrote:On August 17 2012 23:04 Snowbear wrote:
It's blizzard. They will nerf OP things. I know, I am following that logic, but I am not convinced. Currently Widow Mine doesn't cost a lot, 75/25, but it prevents Muta harass completely, which is retarded. There is no sane Zerg that will trade Mutas that are 100/100 for Widow Mines, and currently Widow Mine does 200 damage to single target unit, and they even BUFFED that damage... We will see, but I hope for more diversity, not less. It doesn't pervent muta harass. And any zerg who has been playing for more than 5 minutes or is older than 4 years old will be able to pull 1 muta out of his control group in 10 seconds. That is not the point, you won't be trading one Muta that cost 100/100 for Mine that cost 75/25. Of course I will micro, but he can just put 5-6 Mines in the mineral line and 1 Turret, and I will be the at loss if I engage even with 15+ Mutas, not him. Very narrow biased logic. Widow mines don't move at a ridiculous 3.75 speed and fly and have DPS and 120 HP. It is not narrow nor biased, it will completely shut down Muta harass, not the Mutalisks as unit, you will be able to play them as usual combined with other units, but you won't be harassing with them. So you want to enter his base with 15 Mutalisks, there may be even 10 Mines, be my guest. I am not talking about different scenarios, just about Muta harass scenario. Whole point is, if you could prevent that sort of damage, and minimize it, it would be cool, it would encourage micro, but this way, you will be trading what, 1 Mine for 1 Mutalisk? Yup, you won't do anything. And I am laughing about "just spread your Mutalisks", sure, you can't even mass that many Mutalisks as he can Mines. If there are 10 Marines in his base (which cost way less than these Mines would) your 15 Mutas still wouldn't do anything, so I don't see what the problem is.
Sure, it won't be cost effective vs. Marines either if it head on head fight, point is, I can run away from Marines, I can abuse the mobility, I can force them stim multiple times, I can take them out one by one by if they get stuck behind the buildings, etc.
On the other hand, if he spread his mines all over the base, I am forced to not attack, or I am for sure gonna be losing Mutas. When I think about it, I could maybe sacrifice few Overlords to run over enemy base and to take out mines, then attack with the Mutas.
And I suppose you are talking about higher number of Marines, since 10 Marines won't do much vs. 15 Mutas, even with stim you can kill about 3-4 Mutas, and 10 Mines would kill 10 Mutas, easy as that.
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On August 18 2012 00:02 TheDougler wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2012 23:20 Ramiz1989 wrote:On August 17 2012 23:12 BeeNu wrote:On August 17 2012 23:02 Ramiz1989 wrote:On August 17 2012 22:32 CaptainCrush wrote:On August 17 2012 22:28 Qikz wrote:On August 17 2012 22:25 grindC wrote:On August 17 2012 22:22 SarcasmMonster wrote:On August 17 2012 22:21 grindC wrote:
Zerglings and marines are pretty cost efficient trades for widowmines, but I'm quite curious, what protoss will do against those... I genuinely don't know to be honest. Something like BW mine clearing I guess. Yeah... but I mean... it seems so easy for Terran and Zerg to clear them out. Protoss really has no equivalent... except in lategame maybe... trading a few zealots for widowmines won't be that much of a problem I feel... early-midgame seems problematic though. I was figuring hallucination... but that's a bit of an investment aswell. You don't need to do that, you have the unit called the observer. You then use stalkers to snipe the mines Lol, was going to say the same. If you move out against a terran without an observer then you probably deserve to take those mines to the face. A protoss will likely have colossus at that point to so the mines will be pretty useless even in midgame TvP. It is not as easy as it sounds, since they are no Brood War mines, they are Widow Mines, that can target air, so you have to clear them slowly, or else you will be losing Observers left and right. You can't just send Observers to the enemy base anymore without thinking. I like it, and I am really looking forward the Widow mines, I just hope that they won't be overpowered. Um, do you actually know if the Mines latch on to invisible units or you need to be able to see them first? Sounds like you're just guessing to me. The mines auto-attack but they can't detect last time I checked. Read few posts before your on the same page, the guy that played at MLG speaks about it, and how he killed Cloaked Banshee of his Friend with a Mine... Wait I'm starting to get confused... does the mine do splash damage to air units?
It does, and it can latch on cloaked/invisible/burrowed unit, it can also target air units.
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On August 18 2012 00:48 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2012 00:45 xPabt wrote:On August 18 2012 00:09 Herect wrote:
Cons:
- You can't make 20 of it at same time, and, plus, it takes some factory time (you could be building BHs).
- It'll have to burrow before attacks, so it can't be used in a normal battle with the bio/mechball.
- It doesn't have a uniform AoE damage. Something like the Seeker Missile. It'll probalby stacks, but the damge will fall considerably with the radius.
- It'll break Deathballs just like banes.
That's a con?? I think he means "break" in the sense that it'll make them too strong. Imagine a mech Deathball surrounded by Mines. Wtf do you even do against that?
Circumnavigate the deathball probably. The hypothetical mech deathball is probably least mobile of all the deathballs.
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On August 18 2012 00:59 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2012 00:48 Shiori wrote:On August 18 2012 00:45 xPabt wrote:On August 18 2012 00:09 Herect wrote:
Cons:
- You can't make 20 of it at same time, and, plus, it takes some factory time (you could be building BHs).
- It'll have to burrow before attacks, so it can't be used in a normal battle with the bio/mechball.
- It doesn't have a uniform AoE damage. Something like the Seeker Missile. It'll probalby stacks, but the damge will fall considerably with the radius.
- It'll break Deathballs just like banes.
That's a con?? I think he means "break" in the sense that it'll make them too strong. Imagine a mech Deathball surrounded by Mines. Wtf do you even do against that? Circumnavigate the deathball probably. The hypothetical mech deathball is probably least mobile of all the deathballs.
I don't think that really works in Sc2, to be honest. No matter how much you harass (which isn't really something Protoss can do very well to begin with) you eventually need to fight that army, whether it's BL/Infestor, maxed out mech, or Archon/Colossus. If you can't fight it, you're not going to win.
The maps are usually very easy to split, as well.
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so now protoss have planetary fortress and terran have baneling, in lotv protoss will have baneling and zerg with planetary?? blizzard is out of ideas..
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It seems like every thread about anything to do with Heart of the Swarm turns into a Widow Mine QQ-fest.
I came to the thread looking for info about when the first wave of HotS beta might begin and all I get is talk about Widow Mines. Weren't there already numerous threads about it? Why is this balance whine allowed when it's just making all threads useless to find pertinent info in?
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iiim psyched
gimme dat beta key pl0x
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Does anyone have info about the build at Gamescom? Are there new things like the creep nydus for Zerg?
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On August 18 2012 01:18 willoc wrote:
It seems like every thread about anything to do with Heart of the Swarm turns into a Widow Mine QQ-fest.
I came to the thread looking for info about when the first wave of HotS beta might begin and all I get is talk about Widow Mines. Weren't there already numerous threads about it? Why is this balance whine allowed when it's just making all threads useless to find pertinent info in?
This is TL, balance whine is for all threads at all time, but it is called “discussion”. Even for an untested beta that few people have had access to and will be totally different by the time is it released. As long as people lose games, people will whine about how it was the games fault for being made poorly.
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EPT
