EITHER: This is like, lets say rain at a football or soccer match, like a fallen tree on the road in tour de france or a whole in the road in formula uno. The guy who gets distracted and loses for it, doesnt recognize and has to break or simply crashes, is to blame for himself since this is to be expected and falls under something like "natural influences". Blizzard programming buggy tools is a natural influence in this scenario, or a mapmaker making an error.
OR:This is like Game of Poker with 3 Aces, like soccer with a not normed ball.
Me for myself is a fan of the second part. I think is is totally unprofessional and unacceptable by GOM. I have never ever heard of a "hups, wrong version, but its the players fault for not recognizing it midgame" in the whole history of broodwar. and to simply think about it makes me feel sick. Oh, the possibilities... this is even worse like maphacking. Just go to the mapmaker and tell him "hey, could you add an extra mineral patch at this and that expansion where nobody usually expands". You expand there, you win, other player didnt recognize while playing so the win is legit? WTF? Also its unbelievable that GOM doesnt take a second look at the maps and lets the mapmaker directly upload.
But what i hate most is, that this whole situation is downplayed to "byun vs nestea" and "he won 3:0 anyways so i dont care". Dont you people see that this is so much bigger? Dont you see the impact?
I am really having trouble understanding why people have negative feelings towards Byun over this. Setting up a venue, selecting maps, ... all of that stuff is pretty firmly the jurisdiction of the tournament host.
It is certainly a very unfortunate mistake and I'm really glad GOM is taking responsibility.
Also... so manner of Nestea, though I wish he had just PPed when he saw the missing depot.
On July 13 2012 16:26 Heimatloser wrote: 2 Comparisons:
EITHER: This is like, lets say rain at a football or soccer match, like a fallen tree on the road in tour de france or a whole in the road in formula uno. The guy who gets distracted and loses for it, doesnt recognize and has to break or simply crashes, is to blame for himself since this is to be expected and falls under something like "natural influences". Blizzard programming buggy tools is a natural influence in this scenario, or a mapmaker making an error.
OR:This is like Game of Poker with 3 Aces, like soccer with a not normed ball.
Me for myself is a fan of the second part. I think is is totally unprofessional and unacceptable by GOM. I have never ever heard of a "hups, wrong version, but its the players fault for not recognizing it midgame" in the whole history of broodwar. and to simply think about it makes me feel sick. Oh, the possibilities... this is even worse like maphacking. Just go to the mapmaker and tell him "hey, could you add an extra mineral patch at this and that expansion where nobody usually expands". You expand there, you win, other player didnt recognize while playing so the win is legit? WTF? Also its unbelievable that GOM doesnt take a second look at the maps and lets the mapmaker directly upload.
But what i hate most is, that this whole situation is downplayed to "byun vs nestea" and "he won 3:0 anyways so i dont care". Dont you people see that this is so much bigger? Dont you see the impact?
what impact? do you mean on nestea's mentality?
also similar stuff has happened in bw, that boxer osl incident iirc
On July 13 2012 16:26 Heimatloser wrote: 2 Comparisons:
EITHER: This is like, lets say rain at a football or soccer match, like a fallen tree on the road in tour de france or a whole in the road in formula uno. The guy who gets distracted and loses for it, doesnt recognize and has to break or simply crashes, is to blame for himself since this is to be expected and falls under something like "natural influences". Blizzard programming buggy tools is a natural influence in this scenario, or a mapmaker making an error.
OR:This is like Game of Poker with 3 Aces, like soccer with a not normed ball.
Me for myself is a fan of the second part. I think is is totally unprofessional and unacceptable by GOM. I have never ever heard of a "hups, wrong version, but its the players fault for not recognizing it midgame" in the whole history of broodwar. and to simply think it makes me feel sick, the possibilities... this is even worse like maphacking. Just go to the maphacker and tell him "hey, could you add an extra mineral patch at this and that expansion where nobody usually expands". You expand there, you win, other player didnt recognize while playing so the win is legit? WTF? Also its unbelievable that GOM doesnt take a second look at the maps and lets the mapmaker directly upload.
But what i hate most is, that this whole situation is downplayed to "byun vs nestea" and "he won 3:0 anyways so i dont care". Dont you people see that this is so much bigger? Dont you see the impact?
You can draw all the comparisons you want, in this story, we gave Nestea the full description of the road, or we gave him the card deck for him to examine, and he didn't do it well enough, while Byun did. Don't tell me Zergs don't study maps, they do, just to look for good overlord spots and shit.
So I agree with you, GOM made an error, but if Nestea can't be held accountable for this, so can't Byun. If anything I'd praise him, that was so sneaky it became smart. So, obviously not the most ethical move (he could have indeed pointed the flaw out to GOM, just to confirm), but a smart one, and one definitely within the boundaries set by the rules.
On July 13 2012 16:09 tranmillitary wrote: you could argue why zerg's are so greedy and want the expo at their nat so early. Why is zerg the only race with a free Expo??
Nestea lost all 3 maps, so he wasn't playin well anyways.
First of all, Blizzard thinks 2 bunker rush or other kinds or rushes to punish hatch first "greedy" Zerg is OK. The fact that we don't have neutral depot on ladder after 2 years of Zerg complaining proves their stance on this.
Now, what GOM thinks must be totally different from Blizzard. GOM's job is not to balance the game, but to bring as much entertainment value as possible to the audience. A year and months ago, GOM decided that ramp blocking vs Zerg would bring unexiting games where the entire focus is if block completes or Zerg defends it well. Many other tournament organizers followed this.
Dear Terran players, Blizzard is and has been supporting 2 bunker block vs "greedy" 15 hatch. Just do it and win on ladder as 90%+ Zerg currently go 15 hatch. What's stopping you? Dear spectators of SC2 e-sports, tournament organizers decided that providing ramp blocking games in ,say, 20% of whole tournament games is not what spectators want, so they put a neutral depot.
Just contact GOM or other tournament organizers and tell them you wouldn't stop watching 4 SCVs vs patrolling drone games. Then, they might consider removing the depot. Balance itself is not their primary cocern, they care about entertainment value that comes out of it.
On July 13 2012 00:33 IdrA wrote: byun is most definitely the bad guy. it does not matter if nestea was going to lose anyway, he probably was, and it doesnt matter if that version of the map was available for practice, although if it was nestea should have brought it up beforehand.
the bunker block is something that has been actively prevented on every map for the last year of competition. it is something that the community has collectively decided is unfair and the maps for every legitimate tournament have blocked it since, including every other version of metropolis.
for him to see that and plan on using it is utterly fucked up. its the same thing as pushing a guy down and kicking him in the balls because you realize the ref isnt looking. the only reason ramp blocking isnt explicitly banned in rules is because the community would get stupid about "banning a strategy" and its easily dealt with with map editting.
This is just so wrong. Bug or no bug, that's the map that was available to everyone before the date of play and on it...there is no reason to accuse Byun. How was he supposed to know it was a mistake? He may have assumed that is how the map maker wanted it to be, but that doesn't even matter. The point is that there was no way to tell it was a mistake, and the map was the same for everyone, so there is no excuse
On July 13 2012 16:45 Latty wrote: I dont care if its a bug or not, i dislike strats like byun used, walling off a ramp is the lamset thing known to man. period.
I think it was the most fun game of the day. Opinions, eh?
On July 13 2012 00:33 IdrA wrote: byun is most definitely the bad guy. it does not matter if nestea was going to lose anyway, he probably was, and it doesnt matter if that version of the map was available for practice, although if it was nestea should have brought it up beforehand.
the bunker block is something that has been actively prevented on every map for the last year of competition. it is something that the community has collectively decided is unfair and the maps for every legitimate tournament have blocked it since, including every other version of metropolis.
for him to see that and plan on using it is utterly fucked up. its the same thing as pushing a guy down and kicking him in the balls because you realize the ref isnt looking. the only reason ramp blocking isnt explicitly banned in rules is because the community would get stupid about "banning a strategy" and its easily dealt with with map editting.
This is just so wrong. Bug or no bug, that's the map that was available to everyone before the date of play and on it...there is no reason to accuse Byun. How was he supposed to know it was a mistake? He may have assumed that is how the map maker wanted it to be, but that doesn't even matter. The point is that there was no way to tell it was a mistake, and the map was the same for everyone, so there is no excuse
He probably has personal reasons to talk shit about Byun (like he does about MKP, it's Idra after all). Also, he is one of those zergs who believe that 2 rax bunker block is 'op' strategy against zerg and must be prevented (which is fucking not true and only works against bad/greedy zergs who does not know how to respond to it). Even without ramp block, Nestea wouldn't have defended it because his micro and decisions were just shitty. Nestea lost not because of bad map, he lost because of bad decisions and micro which were punished even harder by the map (but no way it was the main factor). In addition, 11/11 Rax ramp block isn't so strong on a map like metropolis and zergs should be able to stop it if they do everything properly. A lot of players are being fucked up by maps in many tournaments: Metalopolis TvZ/PvZ, Bel' Shir Beach PvZ, Daybreak TvZ/PvZ and so on. All of them are heavily favouring zergs, but I don't see stupid excuse and whine threads about how should these maps be changed or games replayed on other maps.
And people who are accusing Byun- you are just retards. The map was created, and Byun played to the map in order to win. I don't even think he thought "It's a wrong map, because there is no supply depot at bottom of the ramp!". He probably chose to 11/11 rax before he knew there was no depot (he didn't base his strategy on the map, it was a surprise cheese in a first game of the series). And even if he did notice that, maybe he simply didn't think of doing something about it . Pausing the game (which can give you a warning, like in Genius vs Naniwa series) just to inform opponent/caster about possible wrong map which has very minor impact on the game? It doesn't even sound logical to me. Nestea should have done it, but he didn't.
The game was created by GSL referee and both players played to the rules. The were no cheating, no 'bad' guys. It's a referee who kinda fucked-up by not noticing it, but it's even not a big deal. It's just silly drama queens and fan boys looking for excuses and possible sensations.
On July 13 2012 16:45 Latty wrote: I dont care if its a bug or not, i dislike strats like byun used, walling off a ramp is the lamset thing known to man. period.
I think it was the most fun game of the day. Opinions, eh?
it reminded me of when MVP put bunkers between the main and natural on bel'shir beach against Nestea.
Game should have been instantly remade. It's not like he exploited something specific only to metropolis, ie a nook or a cranny to hide a marine. He exploited somthing he knew was wrong and that he thought he could get away with.
If it mentally costed Nestea the series he's not at the level of a true champion, as a true champion you need to be able to forget your last match and go into the next one freshly. I don't think thats the case though, im pretty sure nestea went into the next series freshly because of his experience in championships and playing. And in that case, the series weren't really close in the rest of the games. So one could argue if it even would have mattered. Its a big possibility ByuN would have taken the first map if it played out like the rest of the series. Then again, mistakes like these shouldn't really be allowed.
On July 13 2012 18:23 Huragius wrote: The map was created, and Byun played to the map in order to win. I don't even think he thought "It's a wrong map, because there is no supply depot at bottom of the ramp!". He probably chose to 11/11 rax before he knew there was no depot (he didn't base his strategy on the map, it was a surprise cheese in a first game of the series). And even if he did notice that, maybe he simply didn't think of doing something about it . Pausing the game (which can give you a warning, like in Genius vs Naniwa series) just to inform opponent/caster about possible wrong map which has very minor impact on the game? It doesn't even sound logical to me. Nestea should have done it, but he didn't..
byun noticed the lack of supply depot in a gstl match, he confirmed it and then planned to do a bunker block on the map.
On July 13 2012 16:26 Heimatloser wrote: 2 Comparisons:
EITHER: This is like, lets say rain at a football or soccer match, like a fallen tree on the road in tour de france or a whole in the road in formula uno. The guy who gets distracted and loses for it, doesnt recognize and has to break or simply crashes, is to blame for himself since this is to be expected and falls under something like "natural influences". Blizzard programming buggy tools is a natural influence in this scenario, or a mapmaker making an error.
OR:This is like Game of Poker with 3 Aces, like soccer with a not normed ball.
Me for myself is a fan of the second part. I think is is totally unprofessional and unacceptable by GOM. I have never ever heard of a "hups, wrong version, but its the players fault for not recognizing it midgame" in the whole history of broodwar. and to simply think about it makes me feel sick. Oh, the possibilities... this is even worse like maphacking. Just go to the mapmaker and tell him "hey, could you add an extra mineral patch at this and that expansion where nobody usually expands". You expand there, you win, other player didnt recognize while playing so the win is legit? WTF? Also its unbelievable that GOM doesnt take a second look at the maps and lets the mapmaker directly upload.
But what i hate most is, that this whole situation is downplayed to "byun vs nestea" and "he won 3:0 anyways so i dont care". Dont you people see that this is so much bigger? Dont you see the impact?
While yes it is not right to downplay it to simply "he won 3:0 anyways", there isn't much you can do. After the game itself there's not much you can do if you don't raise the issue right after the game, or during.
You can't entirely blame GOM for the mistake, although if it had to go to anyone it would be them, no one would think that you would have to inform GOM for a texture update. Obviously if nothing on the map itself changes then you wouldn't have an need to review the map. The problem came from a bug while uploading maps which is out of the control of everyone. The mapmaker didn't intend to remove it, I think you are taking this way out of proportion.
Ultimately GOM did the best they could do with the situation and now they can learn from it, it's extremely hard to put the blame onto anyone.
To be fair, i would have to say that if Nestea won the first game instead of losing, the series would go to the forth and maybe the fifth maps, which both maps are Zerg favored. Nestea might have a chance on those two maps.
On July 13 2012 11:52 ragz_gt wrote: The rule simply says: you must use the current version of GSL_Metropolis, and that was exactly the map used.
"The map will be changed immediately, and will once again feature neutral supply depots at the ramp starting with tomorrow's GSTL games."
It was not the map used.
Your causal relationship makes no sense. The fact that they are changing it again does not mean the one without supply was not "In the GSL map pool", which is all the rule requires. They effed up, that's bad; they are now are fixing, that's good. It does not mean that the rule "You must use the map in map pool" was broken.
It's like I hold up a red shirt and say "You must look at the shirt I'm holding, or you owe me $10". Then for some reason I changed the shirt I'm holding yellow shirt, and went "Oops, didn't mean to do that", and changed back to the red shirt. That does NOT mean you are now owe me $10 for looking at the yellow shirt.
This also implies that you know, and Gom knows, this is not the map intended. You know very well that that this "current version" of GSL_Metropolis was not the map in the "GSL map pool"
this implies asking is too hard. the fact he found something odd, and then didnt bring it up to gom before the game shows he was intentionally being devious.
EPT
