|
On July 09 2012 00:28 okum wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2012 23:38 GTR wrote: All BW fans hate SC2? That is one of the dumbest overgeneralization's I've read on this forum. All SC2 fans make dumb overgeneralizations like this all the time.
I see what you did there
As for my personal opinion, with friends / clan, moba games are superior when it comes to fun, but when you are alone, the chat in LoL is fucking disaster.
|
On July 09 2012 00:42 Slow Motion wrote: And to explain how RTS players can find MOBA interesting and deep. MOBA's add the new element of teamwork. This completely changes how we have to look at strategy. Teamwork and synergy is at least as important if not more so than individual skill. Also in MOBAs we can see more exciting feats of micro than in RTS.
I think it's ridiculous to imply that BW fans hate SC2 so much they are going to another game they don't enjoy as much. As for you not understanding why we like LoL/DOTA, that's okay, but realize it's just a matter of preference and taste. I don't get how people can like black licorice for example, but I'm not self-centered enough to think they are eating it just to get back at me.
Edit: also I think it would be interesting to see if a higher percentage of RTS players like to play roles in MOBA that control and dictate the pace of the game (such as jungler). I find myself enjoying that kind of position more than roles where you are focused on the tactics needed to win the lane than the overall big picture (although the interesting and frustrating part of this is that you not only have to create the strategy, you also have to have the leadership skills to get 4 people/strangers to follow you).
I am an RTS player, and I like to play tank, jungler, and support (if my team is good) the most. :D
|
Its simple. People wanted a direct port of BW in 3D they got SC2 which is not a direct port. Many BW fanatics believe SC2 is "much worse." DOTA to DOTA 2 is a direct port. Nothing has changed but improved UI and ladder system. Its the game that BW fans wanted all along.
Just read the other posts how its easier to embrace a new genre then going to a "crappier" version of a game with updated graphics.
|
On July 09 2012 00:55 BWalma wrote: Its simple. People wanted a direct port of BW in 3D they got SC2 which is not a direct port. Many BW fanatics believe SC2 is "much worse." DOTA to DOTA 2 is a direct port. Nothing has changed but improved UI and ladder system. Its the game that BW fans wanted all along.
Just read the other posts how its easier to embrace a new genre then going to a "crappier" version of a game with updated graphics.
I never hoped for a direct StarCraft port, I just hoped for a good game. I didn't get it.
Edit: Although now that I think about it, a direct port would have been better, since SC2 turned out to be trash in comparison.
|
OK I will admit that it was a poor choice of me to say that it seems like BW fans all hate SC2. I should have said that there seems to be a lot of BW fans who dislike the game and that's the impression I get. Although I will say that I've seen so many BW fans post about what a terrible game SC2 is that the only conclusion I can draw is that some people actually hate the game.
Also I will say that I like BW and SC2, and I think OSL right now is the most interesting tournament to watch. But the fact is that KeSPA/OGN want to have their players being a part of a global eSport, and because BW is so Korean-only in terms of the skill/viewers/players it is not surprising that they want to have an SC2 league. Whether or not it was a good idea to force BW players to switch to SC2 is a matter of debate (I think the ideal situation is to have two OSLs, OSL BW and OSL2 if you will and give the players the choice of what game they want to play). The Hybrid Proleague is pretty ridiculous though.
On July 09 2012 00:26 SnowFantasy wrote: SilverWolfe I'm just curious.
how old are you? 21 in 2 months.
On July 09 2012 00:23 vOdToasT wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2012 00:17 SilverWolfe wrote: I think that for people who think that SC2 is a worse game than BW, as it is now you are objectively correct, but I think that you have to consider that BW games back when BW just came out (or even SCvanilla) were much, much worse than watching something like Flash vs Effort now. This is a time when people were still figuring out how to play the game, and as a result the quality of those old games weren't as good as modern BW games. BW has had 14 years and an expansion to let it's metagame flourish, and flourish it has. The way I see it SC2 might not be as developed a game and people still haven't fully figured out everything about it, but there is a new expansion coming out that will sort of 'reset' the skill levels with the introduction of new units/abilities/maps. The game will change over time, and even watching GSL games now compared to the old open seasons of 2010, there is already a WORLD of difference in the games. To me, each season of GSL just gets better and better. When HotS causes a reset in the skill/metagame, I think that the BW players will suddenly be on an even field compared to the current SC2 pros.
To me BW just seems like such an outdated game that relies on you to do so many things the game should just do itself. Things like how poor the pathfinding is, having to rally workers manually to minerals, the lack of smartcasting and multiple building selection don't actually add anything to the game. Technically, you could individually click and cast with each spellcaster, have only 12 units in each control group, individually click every production building to make units and rally your workers in front of your base and manually move them yourself in SC2. There's nothing stopping you from doing that, but why would you? It just makes the game harder to play.
As much as I love BW sometimes I feel like the only reason you find something like a good set of storms or something being amazing is because you know as a BW player how hard it is to actually do that. If you saw it happen in SC2, you know it's easier to do. To me forcing the players to have to spread their attention over this kind of minor things was fine 10 years ago perhaps when game/computer technology was different, but now there is no point for it. This kind of thing just detracts from the focus on strategy and actual unit control in the game. BW players who are so used to doing these minute things will probably find that they can spread their attention more over the actual game when they have fully switched to SC2. Dude 1: When SC2 gets better than BW, I will switch and enjoy it. But why the fuck should I do it now? I don't care if it's going to get better than BW in 5 years, right now it isn't. 2: Even if BW had the easy mechanics of SC2, it would still be a better game. It has more interesting races, better design, and is more intellectualy stimulating. Once you get good at BW and you learn the mechanics, they are no longer an issue anyway. And when you get to that level, you realize that BW has more fun and interesting strategy. Or maybe you don't. Maybe you prefer SC2, and that's fine if you really do like SC2 more. But that's all it is - you like SC2 more. Don't give me all this bullshit about not wanting to move on, being bitter, and so on. Besides, what's wrong with having mechanical requirements and skill-based things in a game? It is a REAL TIME strategy game. Speed is always going to matter more or less. If you don't like that, that's fine, but it does not make the game worse. A fighting game that has hard combos isn't worse than a fighting game that has easy combos. The game takes both strategic thinking and skill-based execution, and there is nothing wrong with that. And if you remove all mechanics from both SC2 and BW, I will still prefer BW. It's just a better game for me, that's it. There is no nostalgia, prejudice, or bias. Some people like BW and DotA but not SC2. Some people like SC2 but not BW. That's all there is to it, stop making a big deal out of the people who like BW and DotA but not SC2. Edit: And when I say mechanics are no longer an issue, I mean that they no longer impede your enjoyment of the game, or limit which strategies you can use. Mechanics and speed become part of the strategic game. It is a resource that you must spend wisely. You can also force your opponent to spend it certain areas, and use strategies that take less apm for you than it takes for him to respond. It adds another strategic layer to the game.
I just want to thank you for this post. This has helped to open my eyes as to why some people prefer BW/Dota over SC2. Personally I think that if players have to spend less time on menial mechanics, they can focus their attention to more of the 'actual' game (positioning/moving units, taking bases, scouting, spellcasting etc.) which will make the game itself better, but that's just my opinion. I hadn't thought of it in terms of attention as a resource like minerals/gas.
I guess what I've gotten out of this thread is that there are people who actually like dota/LoL more than BW/SC2 which I found unbelievable but I guess it's true. To me the only games I feel I can enjoy playing/watching are BW/SC2, I have tried playing/watching Dota/LoL but I have never been able to understand why people like it. That's just me I guess.
|
On July 08 2012 23:22 SilverWolfe wrote: The thing that I'm gonna ask about is that I've noticed a lot of SC2 fans have decided to start playing/watching SC2 over BW. Now this is something I genuinely cannot understand. Coming from the perspective of someone who has played/watched BW, it just seems ludicrous to me to think that SC2 offers even half the entertainment of BW. To me it just seems odd how some people could genuinely prefer this game over BW, in fact I have a hard time believing it's a genuine enjoyment of SC2.
See what I did there?
It's a matter of subjective taste. You may find Starcraft 2 entertaining to watch, but that doesn't mean other people will. You may not find DotA entertaining to watch, but that doesn't mean other people won't.
I'm sorry if you find it distressing that not everyone shares your opinions, but that is something you will have to come to terms with in life.
|
On July 09 2012 01:02 Rostam wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2012 23:22 SilverWolfe wrote: The thing that I'm gonna ask about is that I've noticed a lot of SC2 fans have decided to start playing/watching SC2 over BW. Now this is something I genuinely cannot understand. Coming from the perspective of someone who has played/watched BW, it just seems ludicrous to me to think that SC2 offers even half the entertainment of BW. To me it just seems odd how some people could genuinely prefer this game over BW, in fact I have a hard time believing it's a genuine enjoyment of SC2.
See what I did there? It's a matter of subjective taste. You may find Starcraft 2 entertaining to watch, but that doesn't mean other people will. You may not find DotA entertaining to watch, but that doesn't mean other people won't. I'm sorry if you find it distressing that not everyone shares your opinions, but that is something you will have to come to terms with in life.
I was just going to post about the irony in OPs post. This illustrates it pretty well :D
|
On July 09 2012 00:47 JeffGoldblum wrote: Man, it never crossed my mind until I read this thread but when the pro teams and MBC Game shut down this forum manifested itself into a public, group walk-through of the five stages of grief. Fascinating.
EDIT: so apparently people have no sense of humor.
The really sad part comes after the end of this OSL... I am gonna miss watching them play BW.
User was temp banned for this post.
|
dude, get this picture out of here...
|
|
I love people who troll their own thread.
|
Oh come on. This forum has plenty of posts where people make fun of SC2 (Unimpressed Flash etc.), you guys should be able to take at least one about BW.
|
lol wat ^ LOL so you are admitting that you made this thread to flame BW and its fans. NICE ROFL
|
On July 09 2012 01:23 SilverWolfe wrote: Oh come on. This forum has plenty of posts where people make fun of SC2 (Unimpressed Flash etc.), you guys should be able to take at least one about BW.
For a 21 year old, you should be ashamed of your maturity.
P.S. way to delegate the SC2 fans like that.
|
On July 09 2012 01:23 SilverWolfe wrote: Oh come on. This forum has plenty of posts where people make fun of SC2 (Unimpressed Flash etc.), you guys should be able to take at least one about BW.
How the hell do you see humour in that?
|
|
do you seriously think people are upset because that's a picture about bw?
|
On July 09 2012 00:17 SilverWolfe wrote: I think that for people who think that SC2 is a worse game than BW, as it is now you are objectively correct, but I think that you have to consider that BW games back when BW just came out (or even SCvanilla) were much, much worse than watching something like Flash vs Effort now. This is a time when people were still figuring out how to play the game, and as a result the quality of those old games weren't as good as modern BW games. BW has had 14 years and an expansion to let it's metagame flourish, and flourish it has. The way I see it SC2 might not be as developed a game and people still haven't fully figured out everything about it, but there is a new expansion coming out that will sort of 'reset' the skill levels with the introduction of new units/abilities/maps. The game will change over time, and even watching GSL games now compared to the old open seasons of 2010, there is already a WORLD of difference in the games. To me, each season of GSL just gets better and better. When HotS causes a reset in the skill/metagame, I think that the BW players will suddenly be on an even field compared to the current SC2 pros.
To me BW just seems like such an outdated game that relies on you to do so many things the game should just do itself. Things like how poor the pathfinding is, having to rally workers manually to minerals, the lack of smartcasting and multiple building selection don't actually add anything to the game. Technically, you could individually click and cast with each spellcaster, have only 12 units in each control group, individually click every production building to make units and rally your workers in front of your base and manually move them yourself in SC2. There's nothing stopping you from doing that, but why would you? It just makes the game harder to play.
As much as I love BW sometimes I feel like the only reason you find something like a good set of storms or something being amazing is because you know as a BW player how hard it is to actually do that. If you saw it happen in SC2, you know it's easier to do. To me forcing the players to have to spread their attention over this kind of minor things was fine 10 years ago perhaps when game/computer technology was different, but now there is no point for it. This kind of thing just detracts from the focus on strategy and actual unit control in the game. BW players who are so used to doing these minute things will probably find that they can spread their attention more over the actual game when they have fully switched to SC2.
Is this what the majority of the SC2 crowd thinks? About the outdated UI and graphics only? Its the game design that is the killer feature. Way better unit interaction, dynamics and gameplay as well as better to watch (sc2 deathballs, Current hot issue in sc2 is removing deathballs and make units dont clump up right? ).
|
i thought it was funny cause it labeled us as BW fags
|
konadora
Singapore66062 Posts
21 years old yeah sure ok
|
|
|
|