So, as long as its funny, its ok? Cause there are people from Destinys stream who would argue that he is very entertaining.
Anyway, i dont consider that racist a single bit. It is OBVIOUS Louis CK is not a racist person, and when he handles the word "nigger" on stage it is a non-racist manner, if you really feel that the word itself NO MATTER the context will always be offensive and racist, then i dont see the point in further discussion.
I honestly only feel sorry for you that you feel this way, because it seems to me that with your opinion a day wont go by without you getting offended or angry about something someone said.
Nope, it's not ok because it's funny. It's ok because he's educating us through humour and breaking through taboos to get at real issues and conversations that people won't have about race.
He is using "nigger" and the nature of humour to talk about real issues. You will never be called a racist if you use the word "nigger" in an educational context to teach people about what it means -- academics are never called racist for unpacking the history and contexts of words. This does not offend anyone.
Destiny is not doing anything like Louis CK -- Destiny uses racist words for malicious purposes, then hides behind a "language is subjective" veil for anyone that gets offended.
Don't ever compare the two.
I don't care whether you feel sorry for me or not; I actually feel sorry for you for not understanding very simple basic notions of human decency. Internet tough guys like you who like to argue over semantics in the name of defending your own self interest are a dime a dozen.
Damn that sucks, having to look for another team. I like Destiny, seems like a smart guy. That said this kind of thing will continue to happen as long as players dont treat their stream/posts/community involvement as a *job*. This is their career, job whatever and the same kinds of rules that apply in other industries should apply. Swear, slur, whatever and you deserve to 'be let go' - no offence to the players who get fired over these kinds of situations but they need to grow up if they want to be constantly employed.
On May 04 2012 19:12 drbrown wrote: It depends on where and why it's said, some old guy on a television talk show tosses the word around him clearly using it as an insult? Yeah that could be regarded as wrong, but come on some random streamer who has explained in detail how he does not want to be a big community figure curses on the fucking internet and thats a big problem for minorities? For reference, is this racist?
Sadly, Destiny is missing one small thing. He no longer has a choice on whether or not to be a big community figure. No matter what he wants, as long as he keeps streaming and putting himself out there for other people to watch, he's going to be a community figure. He's going to have to deal with having that "responsibility" so long as he makes his money by entertaining others using his stream. (I'm assuming he makes a living off of streaming - he certainly gets the numbers to do decently off of it.)
It's why I also have absolutely no sympathy for professional athletes that get upset and make commercials about "I'm not a role model!" Yes you are. If you pursue a path which includes having fans, you're going to be a role model to SOMEONE, and you should at least pay some lip service to the responsibility that society has tacked on to being prominent and well known in your community (whether it's tennis, fencing, the Chamber of Commerce, academic fame a la Stephen Hawking). It's part of the package deal - you become a professional, it's MORE THAN JUST PLAYING THE GAME. You become a player and also represent not only yourself but your team and your sponsors. Even if you personally believe that you have a good reason for doing whatever it is you're doing, you have to deal with being an exposed figure in a wider sense and that people are going to be looking at you, judging you, and generally just assuming all kinds of shit about who you are and what you do. Should it be that way? Probably not, but society as a whole is not that interested in deep understanding or having all the facts. (It's not just TL. There's a reason why "fair and balanced" gets good ratings.)
I don't think Destiny is a racist (or at least, not any more than anyone else) or homophobe. But like the vast majority of the people outside of the "hardcore" SC2 nerds, I've never heard his actual explanation on why he uses that language. I've never seen that interview, or that stream. To be honest, he just isn't that important to me. (I'm not a fan, but I'm not hater either.) And that's why using that language can be problematic - most people aren't going to know anything more than "Hey, this pro player just said "cracker"! or whatever it is. And yet because he IS a pro player, and a widely followed streamer, he is overall going to be taken to be an example of the entire community regardless of whether or not he thinks he should be. Sorry, life sucks like that, get a helmet.
On May 04 2012 19:15 SoAoG wrote: I'm sure the rest of the scene is just delighted to see that the security of their job is dependent on having the favour of Redditors and TeamLiquid members. Doesn't have any chance of influencing player-community interaction at all either, nope.
You are oh so wrong. Just look at any other sport or what ever that has a pro scene. Football, hockey what ever. If you say something racist/bigoty you WILL get fired, or fined a large amount. Welcome to the real world where we dont accept that kind of behavior.
On May 04 2012 19:30 WightyCity wrote: hope everything gets back to normal
What worries me is that this IS normal now....
yeah it sucks that people get pissed when community figures fire racist slurs around, man thats really is tough to deal with
The problem is not that people get pissed, the problem is how much power the community has. This is the reason we need a governing body to handle situations like this. The community should have no power what so ever.
On May 04 2012 19:13 ArcticMuse wrote: It's good to see just how far the StarCraft community has slid down the hill. Next time anyone BM's me on ladder (racism, swearing, etc.), stuff reporting them to Blizzard - I'm going to track down their employer (don't tell me it can't be done - anything's possible these days) and tell them just how poorly this person is representing their company.
Not even remotely apples to apples.
How?! You tell me its not the same but don't give any reasons as to why? Destiny's stream is something accessed via the internet - as is starcraft. Destiny's stream is listed with an "Explicit Language" warning, here in Australia SC2 is given a "Mature" classification (recommended for mature audiences - not restricted to). Destiny's stream is watched by people who elect to tune in - starcraft is played by people that elect to play it. Starcraft is the way pro's make their money - your job is the way you make money.
On May 04 2012 19:30 WightyCity wrote: hope everything gets back to normal
What worries me is that this IS normal now....
yeah it sucks that people get pissed when community figures fire racist slurs around, man thats really is tough to deal with
The problem is not that people get pissed, the problem is how much power the community has. This is the reason we need a governing body to handle situations like this. The community should have no power what so ever.
the community of any sport / esport has power. Imagine if a professional sport player called another player who happened to be black a "nigger". the community would go crazy and would probably have influence on the team/leagues decision.
Louis CK doesn't say nigger or faggot in his standup anymore as a swear word. He has said in interviews that he doesn't because of people that try to justify racism, such as many have in this thread. It's the exact same reason Dave Chapelle doesn't do a TV show anymore because of people like you (he also found people laughing at the wrong parts and were using it justify racism).
Here's Louis CK in his TV show explaining his rationale (Begins at 4:50):
The etymology of the word "faggot" is incorrect, but the underlying point of its offensiveness still stands.
Sadly, Destiny is missing one small thing. He no longer has a choice on whether or not to be a big community figure. No matter what he wants, as long as he keeps streaming and putting himself out there for other people to watch, he's going to be a community figure. He's going to have to deal with having that "responsibility" so long as he makes his money by entertaining others using his stream. (I'm assuming he makes a living off of streaming - he certainly gets the numbers to do decently off of it.)
It's why I also have absolutely no sympathy for professional athletes that get upset and make commercials about "I'm not a role model!" Yes you are. If you pursue a path which includes having fans, you're going to be a role model to SOMEONE, and you should at least pay some lip service to the responsibility that society has tacked on to being prominent and well known in your community (whether it's tennis, fencing, the Chamber of Commerce, academic fame a la Stephen Hawking). It's part of the package deal - you become a professional, it's MORE THAN JUST PLAYING THE GAME. You become a player and also represent not only yourself but your team and your sponsors. Even if you personally believe that you have a good reason for doing whatever it is you're doing, you have to deal with being an exposed figure in a wider sense and that people are going to be looking at you, judging you, and generally just assuming all kinds of shit about who you are and what you do. Should it be that way? Probably not, but society as a whole is not that interested in deep understanding or having all the facts. (It's not just TL. There's a reason why "fair and balanced" gets good ratings.)
I don't think Destiny is a racist (or at least, not any more than anyone else) or homophobe. But like the vast majority of the people outside of the "hardcore" SC2 nerds, I've never heard his actual explanation on why he uses that language. I've never seen that interview, or that stream. To be honest, he just isn't that important to me. (I'm not a fan, but I'm not hater either.) And that's why using that language can be problematic - most people aren't going to know anything more than "Hey, this pro player just said "cracker"! or whatever it is. And yet because he IS a pro player, and a widely followed streamer, he is overall going to be taken to be an example of the entire community regardless of whether or not he thinks he should be. Sorry, life sucks like that, get a helmet.
(I don't mind rage. I love Dennis Leary.)
Indeed. He chose to make a living off it whilst representing Quantic and thereby representing Quantic's sponsors. He was answerable to Quantic and Quantic was responsible for him and Quantic are answerable to their sponsors. Therefore Destiny was ultimately answerable to Razer and Razer were ultimately responsible for his behaviour as he was representing their brand.
By choosing to break away from Quantic he can do whatever he wants to do. If he wants to continue being racist then that's his decision, he certainly seems to have enough obsessed fans who love his insulting and unacceptable behaviour to just keep going. Frankly I think this kind of attitude is a blight on e-sports and will turn sponsors away more swiftly than any e-mail campaign but that's neither here nor there. Regardless acting like that whilst representing anyone other than just himself has consequences; because he has responsibilities to those people.
For people who make money or even an entire living off SC2 it's no longer just "fun on the interwebz", it's a job. And it's a public entertainment job wherein people represent those that pay them the money. If that is just their viewers they are only answerable to their viewers, but as soon as they become affiliated with a bigger organisation that is no logner the case.
On May 04 2012 19:13 ArcticMuse wrote: It's good to see just how far the StarCraft community has slid down the hill. Next time anyone BM's me on ladder (racism, swearing, etc.), stuff reporting them to Blizzard - I'm going to track down their employer (don't tell me it can't be done - anything's possible these days) and tell them just how poorly this person is representing their company.
Not even remotely apples to apples.
How?! You tell me its not the same but don't give any reasons as to why? Destiny's stream is something accessed via the internet - as is starcraft. Destiny's stream is listed with an "Explicit Language" warning, here in Australia SC2 is given a "Mature" classification (recommended for mature audiences - not restricted to). Destiny's stream is watched by people who elect to tune in - starcraft is played by people that elect to play it. Starcraft is the way pro's make their money - your job is the way you make money.
You understand that there's a difference between someone who plays e-sports for a living and someone who plays it for fun, right? And that they're held to different standards?
Sort of like why you don't hold the high school hockey team students to the same standard as professional hockey players when they say stupid shit?
This might be a hard concept to grasp for some StarCraft players who like to believe they are all special snowflakes..
On May 04 2012 19:25 Otak wrote: Makes me sad when whinging crybabies get their own way.
You should be proud to be part of a community that can actually make a difference. A community that can say "enough is enough, gtfo" and that is what happens.
It's not like the community can't handle BM. Heck the community "loves" Idra for being Idra. But he knows where the line is drawn.
Destiny has crossed it way too many times. And now he will have hard time finding new team, and that is the way it should be.
You shouldn't get away with doing / saying anything when streaming or being part of a pro team. Heck you shouldn't get away with being an asshole on bnet either and I'm sure that Blizzard doesn't tolerate this kind of words either if the players get reported.
On May 04 2012 19:30 WightyCity wrote: hope everything gets back to normal
What worries me is that this IS normal now....
yeah it sucks that people get pissed when community figures fire racist slurs around, man thats really is tough to deal with
The problem is not that people get pissed, the problem is how much power the community has. This is the reason we need a governing body to handle situations like this. The community should have no power what so ever.
the community of any sport / esport has power. Imagine if a professional sport player called another player who happened to be black a "nigger". the community would go crazy and would probably have influence on the team/leagues decision.
You don't think that happens on the court or on the field? May not be as harsh as calling a player "nigger", but there's definitely shit talking in the sound bytes. Only time players get into trouble is if it's recorded somehow in text or on tape. People need to spend their time more wisely and not worry about such miniscule things.
EPT
