On May 04 2012 19:25 Otak wrote: Makes me sad when whinging crybabies get their own way.
You should be proud to be part of a community that can actually make a difference. A community that can say "enough is enough, gtfo" and that is what happens.
It's not like the community can't handle BM. Heck the community "loves" Idra for being Idra. But he knows where the line is drawn.
Destiny has crossed it way too many times. And now he will have hard time finding new team, and that is the way it should be.
You shouldn't get away with doing / saying anything when streaming or being part of a pro team. Heck you shouldn't get away with being an asshole on bnet either and I'm sure that Blizzard doesn't tolerate this kind of words either if the players get reported.
How many people has Destiny flipped off at tournaments?
If you guys can't see the difference between the middle finger and racial slurs, I'm not sure if anyone can help you.
If you can't grasp the way the world works today, I'm not sure if anyone can help you.
So flipping someone off, in front of their face is not as bad as calling someone a racial slur over the internet?
"How the world works today."
This entire thread is about people not understanding that racism, specifically, is incredibly more sensitive than just about any other offensive gesture, insult or other act. That's why people are so baffled here and aren't grasping it. You can argue the merits of that if you want, but it 's completely irrelevant. If you play for a team with corporate sponsors, you should play by those rules. Plain and simple.
When people are sponsoring you, you aren't allowed to act however you want.
When you represent a team, you aren't allowed to act however you want.
What about this is so hard to understand? It's simple business. When people sponsor you, you represent THEIR brand. Destiny wanted to continue making money but didn't want to answer to his team or its sponsors anymore so he left.
On May 04 2012 19:03 Rampoon wrote: I'm just going to shamelessly quote myself here because I would like people's opinion on my thoughts:
My view for what it's worth:
If everyone just takes a step back from arguing over language use, people's differing opinion on what's right and what isn't and what the motives of the people are who contact sponsors (over anything).
For one the people doing this are most likely doing it because they can, history has shown a few people (minority) get pleasure from this false sense of power - they do something = consequences for someone else. Blah blah don't care, these people will always exist and are not worth the time I am spending typing this.
Secondly I'm not sure whether this has been mentioned or not but whether or not people contact sponsors over this type of thing surely the bottom line is that if a sponsor catches wind (say an employee watches a stream and sees the behaviour) of the actions of indivuduals would they still enforce action? If the answer is yes then whistleblowers are not the issue at all as Teams are running the risk of these problems arising if they do not control their players.
It's not a question of thicker skin or what's offensive to whom it's a question of - would your sponsors dislike the people they sponsor acting in this way and if so the Team/manager whatever should be the first people taking action.
Just my 2 cents.
I agree with Incogs post but I think people shouldn't be focusing on the idiots who enjoy doing this stuff. Yes we are all annoyed and the situation is stupid but these kind of people are always going to exist. The problem of sponsors doing this kind of thing doesn't have to arise due to whistleblowers so surely this is a wake up call to all teams and managers...?
I understand your point, and it's a good one. To be fair, I sometimes did wonder how Razer felt about destiny's BM. I did think that Quantic was already aware of it but decided it wasn't an issue (which, subjectively, it isn't, but that's a whole other debate). I suppose that wasn't the case.
If teams are slightly more wary about the issue and this sort of incident can be avoided in the future, well then I suppose that that's a good thing.
That said the whistle-blowers, as you call them, ignited the entire ordeal in a very poor way. That's what I'm calling out. You're right that people will always do stupid shit, but you have to call 'em out anyway or they'll never stop. The entire "problem" was handled in a very poor way overall and ended up with everyone hating everyone. That's unfortunate, and that shouldn't happen again.
On May 04 2012 19:25 Otak wrote: Makes me sad when whinging crybabies get their own way.
You should be proud to be part of a community that can actually make a difference. A community that can say "enough is enough, gtfo" and that is what happens.
It's not like the community can't handle BM. Heck the community "loves" Idra for being Idra. But he knows where the line is drawn.
Destiny has crossed it way too many times. And now he will have hard time finding new team, and that is the way it should be.
You shouldn't get away with doing / saying anything when streaming or being part of a pro team. Heck you shouldn't get away with being an asshole on bnet either and I'm sure that Blizzard doesn't tolerate this kind of words either if the players get reported.
How many people has Destiny flipped off at tournaments?
If you guys can't see the difference between the middle finger and racial slurs, I'm not sure if anyone can help you.
If you can't grasp the way the world works today, I'm not sure if anyone can help you.
So flipping someone off, in front of their face is not as bad as calling someone a racial slur over the internet?
IdrA flipped off HuK on stage, caught on camera and if I'm not mistaken, was broadcast on stream. No one gave a shit really. So yes, it is not as bad.
"No one gave a shit", but do this is another sport, what happens? Oh you just proved my point, thanks.
On May 04 2012 19:37 haileris wrote: Can we please stop quoting that Louis CK video?
Louis CK doesn't say nigger or faggot in his standup anymore as a swear word. He has said in interviews that he doesn't because of people that try to justify racism, such as many have in this thread. It's the exact same reason Dave Chapelle doesn't do a TV show anymore because of people like you (he also found people laughing at the wrong parts and were using it justify racism).
Here's Louis CK in his TV show explaining his rationale (Begins at 4:50):
The etymology of the word "faggot" is incorrect, but the underlying point of its offensiveness still stands.
Which is why I said that Louis CK is completely different from Destiny.
Destiny is literally trying to defend his racism with bullshit excuses, the problem is the his fans gobble it up and don't question it, and then just ape what he does.
On May 04 2012 19:38 iTsCaRNaGe wrote: Now show me how many e-mails have been sent over a white american being called a cracker on the internet.
Nice first post on TL.
The answer is 0, because cracker is not offensive, and white people just laugh if you call them a cracker.
But it is a racial slur none the less, sorry to break it to everyone. Just because most people aren't offended by it doesn't mean it should be used, isn't that the lesson we're trying to teach here?
Let see.
Nigger - used as a racist word for black people who were slaves for hundreds of years Gook - started in the korean war, but mainly used against vietnamese soldiers that US soldiers killed Cracker - kinda funny word that doesnt mean anything besides the similarity between cracker color and skin color of white people
There are a lot of voices on both sides of this issue. I have read so many posts claiming to be 'disgusted' with the community for these actions, or predicting some kind of terrible dystopian future where nobody can have fun anymore because of 'mobs' of 'white knights.'
I just want to add my voice and say that I am proud of those who took a stand against the public use of racist language. Also, I do not think that because we reject Destiny calling people 'gooks' that we have lost 'personality' or are 'boring.' This is not a mob. At least some people are simply opposed to public use of racist language.
On May 04 2012 19:44 bigbeau wrote: This community has just reached the lowest level of any community that I have ever seen or been a part of. It's reached levels of 4chan /b/. At least when the /b/tards try to fuck up someones life for whatever reason, they admit it's just because they want to. The White Knights here are doing it behind the guise of 'cleaning up the community' when everyone knows damn well that swearing and insulting on the internet is never going to stop.
People on this site have become addicted to drama and discovered the power to manipulate things i.e. create drama by messaging sponsors. Im actually physically disgusted by the fact that some people in this thread are actually pleased with themselves for doing this. They remind me of the generic bitchy class mom in sitcom-y type shows that tries to ruin everyone elses lives under the guise of making everything better for her son or the class or whathaveher.
I just wish that when shit liked this happened, the people in support of whomever is getting witchhunted would message the sponsor telling them that they don't want him to be punished, because as it stands, when a part of the community is upset, they can just message the sponsor and the sponsor will suddenly receive 5000 emails saying 'I won't support this team or player or whatever'. As opposed to them receiving 5000 email saying that and another 6000 emails saying 'I don't care what this team or player did, I still will buy razer stuff, and I support them.'
So you just compared people complaining to sponsors about a pro-gamer saying stupid racist shit to 4chan posters that harass people for whatever reason they want?
When a sponsor is receiving 5000 emails saying that someone they are giving money to is being irresponsible, it's called the free market.
On May 04 2012 19:46 Vindicare605 wrote: When people are sponsoring you, you aren't allowed to act however you want.
When you represent a team, you aren't allowed to act however you want.
What about this is so hard to understand? It's simple business. When people sponsor you, you represent THEIR brand. Destiny wanted to continue making money but didn't want to answer to his team or its sponsors anymore so he left.
It was a wise thing for him to do.
You are right, but it is to the people you represent to judge about your actions, not some little cry baby behind his keyboard. If it was a problem, his team or his sponsors would have acted accordingly on their own.
On May 04 2012 19:21 babybell wrote: On the next episode: TL netizens assault their grandfathers for using the word "gook" in the Korean War.
Tangent:
Actually, that is part of why "gook" is probably more offensive than you think it is. (For reference, look up the origins of "kraut" or "nip" or even "flip" used as a negative slur.) Lemme try to keep this brief, and if you want to see a great book on the subject, pick up On Killing by Ret. Lt. Col Grossman.
There's a reason why we come up with derogatory, hate filled words to describe our enemies during times of war. (Even now, though the wider culture tries to avoid it. Ask any vet that's been to the sandbox.) It's a way of enabling us to do horrible things to them when necessary. (It can go too far, as well.) It's a mechanism by which we can erode, both consciously and unconsciously, the innate humanity of our foe. By debasing them to a level somewhere below a rat but mildly above algae in level of repugnance, it becomes a lot easier for us as human beings (and, by extension, better human beings than them) to slaugher them as required under the rules of engagement and win a war. It's part of a psychological strategy that lets us skip past the hesitation when we plan to kill a thinking, sentient human being. It underlines the point that we are better than them, and it's okay for us to do something that is normally morally (or ethically) apalling.
To finish off, here's an actual game related analogy -
Do you think that a 3/3 marine is actually thinking about that zealot or zergling's feelings when he is stutterstepping bullets into its chest? Does he stop to care about the physical and emotional pain he is dealing out? No, he's riding the stim and screaming something like "Death to the lousy bugs!" or "Outta my way you alien scum!" If he had to stop and think "I'm sorry, old man. You were an honorable opponent and it's a shame that you must die that I may live. I will pass my condolences to your family, and I truly apologize. I will try to end your life in as easy and painless way as I am capable, because I am a compassionate being and I wish to minimize your suffering." he'd be either dead, or horrifically traumatized by PTSD.
Demonizing and dehumanizing your enemies makes it easier to kill them. Just does. Which is why I wouldn't hold it against a veteran of a war, because that's part of what let them make it through that horror show. What I find truly amazing, is that some people can reverse these opinions afterwards and acknowledge that the enemy is doing exactly the same thing... okay, really, I'm stopping now, this is a subject that can fill books and I've already gone past "keeping it short".
On May 04 2012 19:36 papaz wrote: I love the SC2 community.
This is one community where the players can't get away with the shit Destiny/Orb did.
Manner up or gtfo.
more like,
'dont mess with whiny kid otherwise you will get owned (when he reports to your mum!)'
more incident like will make esport further away from getting mainstream. seriously, this is worse than the kids fighting in primary school.
i dont watch steve anymore mainly due to i am bored of his jokes and i know many of us earlier followers have left too but i always understand that guy has a family to feed so i never understand why people would like to mess with his work.
people will see this as 'gamers......kiddies.....' and that is very very very bad.
On May 04 2012 19:37 haileris wrote: Can we please stop quoting that Louis CK video?
Louis CK doesn't say nigger or faggot in his standup anymore as a swear word. He has said in interviews that he doesn't because of people that try to justify racism, such as many have in this thread. It's the exact same reason Dave Chapelle doesn't do a TV show anymore because of people like you (he also found people laughing at the wrong parts and were using it justify racism).
Here's Louis CK in his TV show explaining his rationale (Begins at 4:50):
The etymology of the word "faggot" is incorrect, but the underlying point of its offensiveness still stands.
Which is why I said that Louis CK is completely different from Destiny.
Destiny is literally trying to defend his racism with bullshit excuses, the problem is the his fans gobble it up and don't question it, and then just ape what he does.
On May 04 2012 19:38 iTsCaRNaGe wrote: Now show me how many e-mails have been sent over a white american being called a cracker on the internet.
Nice first post on TL.
The answer is 0, because cracker is not offensive, and white people just laugh if you call them a cracker.
Calling someone white in a society ruled by white people where there is a heavy amount of white privilege is a few shades away of complimenting them more so than insulting them.
A racial slur is insulting because of the power dynamic and the historical relevance of the communities involved.
For example, if a black person calls a white person a cracker, it's no different than saying "Excuse me, individual over there, I wish to label you as part of the society that was in charge of and ruled my society, I wish to remind you of the victories you had against my people, my culture, and my history. My society is less than it could be because of how powerful you were."
So please stop thinking that "cracker" is the same as "nigger."
So, when idra rages and insults the other player it's fine, he's not a bad guy behind the scenes, but when it's destiny it's a shame just because he used a "racist" word?
Don't get me wrong, racism shouldn't be allowed, but we're all humans, and we all got our temper, and using the ban-hammer and emailing the sponsors thus hurting the whole community on the behave of a single player is short minded.
On May 04 2012 19:37 haileris wrote: Can we please stop quoting that Louis CK video?
Louis CK doesn't say nigger or faggot in his standup anymore as a swear word. He has said in interviews that he doesn't because of people that try to justify racism, such as many have in this thread. It's the exact same reason Dave Chapelle doesn't do a TV show anymore because of people like you (he also found people laughing at the wrong parts and were using it justify racism).
Here's Louis CK in his TV show explaining his rationale (Begins at 4:50):
The etymology of the word "faggot" is incorrect, but the underlying point of its offensiveness still stands.
Which is why I said that Louis CK is completely different from Destiny.
Destiny is literally trying to defend his racism with bullshit excuses, the problem is the his fans gobble it up and don't question it, and then just ape what he does.
On May 04 2012 19:38 iTsCaRNaGe wrote: Now show me how many e-mails have been sent over a white american being called a cracker on the internet.
Nice first post on TL.
The answer is 0, because cracker is not offensive, and white people just laugh if you call them a cracker.
But it is a racial slur none the less, sorry to break it to everyone. Just because most people aren't offended by it doesn't mean it should be used, isn't that the lesson we're trying to teach here?
Let see.
Nigger - used as a racist word for black people who were slaves for hundreds of years Gook - started in the korean war, but mainly used against vietnamese soldiers that US soldiers killed Cracker - kinda funny word that doesnt mean anything besides the similarity between cracker color and skin color of white people
On May 04 2012 19:50 Kustom wrote: So, when idra rages and insults the other player it's fine, he's not a bad guy behind the scenes, but when it's destiny it's a shame just because he used a "racist" word?
Don't get me wrong, racism shouldn't be allowed, but we're all humans, and we all got our temper, and using the ban-hammer and emailing the sponsors thus hurting the whole community on the behave of a single player is short minded.
"you're trash at this game" is miles away from "fuck you gook"
On May 04 2012 19:44 bigbeau wrote: This community has just reached the lowest level of any community that I have ever seen or been a part of. It's reached levels of 4chan /b/. At least when the /b/tards try to fuck up someones life for whatever reason, they admit it's just because they want to. The White Knights here are doing it behind the guise of 'cleaning up the community' when everyone knows damn well that swearing and insulting on the internet is never going to stop.
People on this site have become addicted to drama and discovered the power to manipulate things i.e. create drama by messaging sponsors. Im actually physically disgusted by the fact that some people in this thread are actually pleased with themselves for doing this. They remind me of the generic bitchy class mom in sitcom-y type shows that tries to ruin everyone elses lives under the guise of making everything better for her son or the class or whathaveher.
I just wish that when shit liked this happened, the people in support of whomever is getting witchhunted would message the sponsor telling them that they don't want him to be punished, because as it stands, when a part of the community is upset, they can just message the sponsor and the sponsor will suddenly receive 5000 emails saying 'I won't support this team or player or whatever'. As opposed to them receiving 5000 email saying that and another 6000 emails saying 'I don't care what this team or player did, I still will buy razer stuff, and I support them.'
So you just compared people complaining to sponsors about a pro-gamer saying stupid racist shit to 4chan posters that harass people for whatever reason they want?
When a sponsor is receiving 5000 emails saying that someone they are giving money to is being irresponsible, it's called the free market.
the person you quoted is right. anyone who wrote out an email is pretty much on the same level as kyle's mom.
On May 04 2012 19:37 haileris wrote: Can we please stop quoting that Louis CK video?
Louis CK doesn't say nigger or faggot in his standup anymore as a swear word. He has said in interviews that he doesn't because of people that try to justify racism, such as many have in this thread. It's the exact same reason Dave Chapelle doesn't do a TV show anymore because of people like you (he also found people laughing at the wrong parts and were using it justify racism).
Here's Louis CK in his TV show explaining his rationale (Begins at 4:50):
The etymology of the word "faggot" is incorrect, but the underlying point of its offensiveness still stands.
Which is why I said that Louis CK is completely different from Destiny.
Destiny is literally trying to defend his racism with bullshit excuses, the problem is the his fans gobble it up and don't question it, and then just ape what he does.
On May 04 2012 19:38 iTsCaRNaGe wrote: Now show me how many e-mails have been sent over a white american being called a cracker on the internet.
Nice first post on TL.
The answer is 0, because cracker is not offensive, and white people just laugh if you call them a cracker.
Calling someone white in a society ruled by white people where there is a heavy amount of white privilege is a few shades away of complimenting them more so than insulting them.
A racial slur is insulting because of the power dynamic and the historical relevance of the communities involved.
For example, if a black person calls a white person a cracker, it's no different than saying "Excuse me, individual over there, I wish to label you as part of the society that was in charge of and ruled my society, I wish to remind you of the victories you had against my people, my culture, and my history. My society is less than it could be because of how powerful you were."
So please stop thinking that "cracker" is the same as "nigger."
TL;DR: it's not racism if it's directed at white people
On May 04 2012 19:46 Vindicare605 wrote: When people are sponsoring you, you aren't allowed to act however you want.
When you represent a team, you aren't allowed to act however you want.
What about this is so hard to understand? It's simple business. When people sponsor you, you represent THEIR brand. Destiny wanted to continue making money but didn't want to answer to his team or its sponsors anymore so he left.
It was a wise thing for him to do.
quantic hired him because he is destiny, they knew what they were getting and have only parted ways because of community (read mob) pressure
I'm annoyed because the mob are trying to make decision for me, if I want to watch a dude who occasionaly drops a racial slur then that is my choice, stop trying to police the world for me, that is the issue I have, the mob think they know what is best for everyone and want to protect people in the name of "saving esports"
On May 04 2012 18:29 Incognoto wrote: I can't believe this. I've just lost a huge amount of faith in the community.
For the record, I don't have anything against TL moderation. It's their site and they do what they want. I didn't like Destiny's ban, however I don't feel it wasn't justified (read the 10 commandments thing). This is TL's site, if they've had the success they've had up until now it's for a reason.
As to what I think about the language, read here. It's beating a dead horse so you can skip it if you want. + Show Spoiler +
For the record, I have absolutely no problem with Destiny's racial slurs. At the beginning, when he started using them, I felt that it was too much and I was put off by it. However, Destiny explained his arguments about the use of his language (here is a youtube video of Destiny having a discussion about this). I then started not minding, because Destiny's arguments made sense. I advise anyone who has a problem with Destiny's language to watch the video. If they're going to have such strong feelings about such a matter than they owe it to everyone to at least listen to a counter-argument. Not doing so is just fucking stale balderdash.
Again, it shocks and appalls me that anyone would go so far just to hurt a player who hasn't done anything other than use "offensive" words. It's just incredibly stupid. Let's imagine that we had a homosexual SC2 pro player. Let's just imagine this. Anyone can be incredibly offensive to this player and personally attack him without using a single offensive word. I've put an example in spoilers just to express my point:
you little piece of dirt. you're a dog that's what you are, you and whoever you're with. going about, spreading diseases with your strangeness, it's un-natural, it's disgusting, that's all you are. i sincerely hope you and your kind die painful deaths from HIV, the less of you there are the better
See what I did there? Not a single swear word was even used yet I said something much more offensive than Destiny has ever said on stream.
Imagine if instead, it had said "the absolute epitome of being a skill-less fucking fucking idiot, fuck off you dog"
If that's what had been said there would have been none of this pointless drama, even though both of expressions mean the same thing.
The one thing that annoys me is that no one is going to really change their mind of the issue, yet they're going to refuse to at least hear the other side of the argument. I don't want people to change their minds, I want people to agree to disagree. I'm pretty sure that no one who's faced Destiny on the ladder has gone off and killed themselves or broke down to tears after Destiny flamed them.
What does disgust the shit out of me are all these hate-driven anti-fans. It absolutely blows my mind. The issue was really a trivial one, and internet white knights just blew things completely out of proportion. Completely out of proportion. I'm shocked and appalled that the community would do such a thing. If you dislike someone then just leave him be. I don't understand why you'd do anything else. Hating a player is against the very principle of esports. The goal here is watch games, be fan-boys, enjoy playing the game, having fun.
I dislike Cruncher, that doesn't mean I go out and insult him every single turn I get. That doesn't mean I jump on an occasion I get to email his sponsor and taint his reputation. I was pissed off when he eliminated Idra and Mondragon with cheesy builds, I didn't' muck the forums because I was butt-hurt. I don't go on his stream and insult him. People who have that kind of behavior are basically taking a nice colorful shit on what esports represent. I'm glad TL moderates them.
Furthermore, the community isn't here to police players or go on witch hunts. If a player is doing something that could be considered distasteful, the best thing to do is to just email the team (in private, with a calm and reasonable email). The absolute worst thing to do is post about and complain about publicly so that all the hateful idiots can rally around and muck up the forums for reasons that are iffy at best. If warden had a problem with Destiny he should have taken it up to Destiny or Quantic, not start this concentration of idiocy. Immature, that's what it was. Worst part is that I've learned a huge amount of stuff from Destiny, both about Zerg and other topics, yet I've never even heard of warden before this incident. I wonder who actually contributed more to the community? And this is how he's thanked.
The worst part is that they didn't even harm Destiny as much as they hoped, but they nearly dealt huge, hurtful blows to Quantic (and all of the good players on Quantic's team). It's appalling. Appalling. I can't repeat this word enough because that's what this situation is. I expected something more intelligent from the community but apparently there's still this hateful part of it that does a lot of damage for almost no good, except provoking this dumb drama. Idra's rivalries are good drama, they interest people. This is fucking retarded.
My respect for Destiny sky-rocketed when he left the team because it would be best for everyone. I'll continue to support him more than ever now. But the community just took a huge nose-dive in my esteem.
Edit: Now I feel bad for having posted this because no one is even going to read it, preferring to justify their shitty actions with one-liners about how good they are for the community.
You seem to be convinced that all this transpired due to the actions of a crowd of internet crusaders who take perverse satisfaction from wielding power against hapless victims of their secret animosity.
Have you considered that people might actually have a problem with hate speech, and they take serious action against it to make their community more like they want it to be?
You probably shouldn't bother to be appalled unless you know the precise details of what actually happened and why. Did Razer talk to Quantic? Who then talked to Destiny? Or is the image of sending emails what appalls you, whether or not it had any affect beyond the general commotion?
Since you're so worked up, I assume you value esports, whatever that word means. PR funded professional gaming. Many of us do, and want to see it grow. Many of us won't sacrifice decency, however. I encourage you to reevaluate what is trivial.
I'm happy that behavior like that isn't respected and thus punished when it's frequent like in the case of Destiny.
In the end, every time I play against one of those geniuses calling you names and talk crap I'd love it, if there was something saying "no, this crap is stupid, stop it". I mean I can ignore them and not care, but why should I "suffer" when they're the bad guy so to say.
EPT
