EPTNBA Playoffs 2012 - Page 221
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OneOther
United States10774 Posts
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thuracine
United States582 Posts
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FreedomMurder
Canada200 Posts
On June 07 2012 00:03 Durp wrote: lol fanboy to the max. LBJ is the reason they're going to lose. He's never been a team player, always makes horrible late game decisions, and is not clutch. MJ and Kobe have always been the guys you want with the ball in their hands at the end of games. They've carried teams on their backs, and won games and championships. Compare Lebron to them when he's won 6, no 5, no wait, ONE championship. Also, let's no forget, no other player anointed himself the King then had a televised free-agency announcement like the douchebag he is. Fuck Lebron James. I love Dwayne Wade, but I will now be rooting against him just so that the pussy Lebron loses. I hope he never wins a title, and ends up being the Dan Marino of the NBA. All around talent and statistically godly, but never wins the big game. If you are going to say that kobe is clutch and lebron isn't just read this article. Then come talk. http://www.libertyballers.com/2012/2/29/2832299/lebron-james-kobe-bryant-dwyane-wade-clutch-nba-playoffs-4th-quarter Please don't talk about Kobe Bryant, the man got carried to three rings by Shaq. They were 8th place in the west and kobe was averaging 35 pts per game until they got Pau Gasol. Don't say Kobe and MJ at the same time. One is a legend who will never be overshadowed, the other will rip out his teammates even though it was his fault they lost. Lebron is the best player in the league. He is the reason why the heat are relevant right now not Dwayne Wade. You gotta stop making posts while wearing your hater glasses its really obvious. If the heat wanna win this series shane battier, mario chalmers and james jones have to hit some shots and dwayne wade needs to be on his game not just the 2nd half but the whole game. Lebron needs to stop passing the ball at the end of games. Just go mid-post and do your thing. | ||
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ShoCkeyy
7815 Posts
On June 07 2012 02:26 FreedomMurder wrote: If you are going to say that kobe is clutch and lebron isn't just read this article. Then come talk. http://www.libertyballers.com/2012/2/29/2832299/lebron-james-kobe-bryant-dwyane-wade-clutch-nba-playoffs-4th-quarter Please don't talk about Kobe Bryant, the man got carried to three rings by Shaq. They were 8th place in the west and kobe was averaging 35 pts per game until they got Pau Gasol. Don't say Kobe and MJ at the same time. One is a legend who will never be overshadowed, the other will rip out his teammates even though it was his fault they lost. Lebron is the best player in the league. He is the reason why the heat are relevant right now not Dwayne Wade. You gotta stop making posts while wearing your hater glasses its really obvious. If the heat wanna win this series shane battier, mario chalmers and james jones have to hit some shots and dwayne wade needs to be on his game not just the 2nd half but the whole game. Lebron needs to stop passing the ball at the end of games. Just go mid-post and do your thing. This is so fucking true. I love every word you have said. | ||
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Daozzt
United States1263 Posts
On June 07 2012 02:26 FreedomMurder wrote: If you are going to say that kobe is clutch and lebron isn't just read this article. Then come talk. http://www.libertyballers.com/2012/2/29/2832299/lebron-james-kobe-bryant-dwyane-wade-clutch-nba-playoffs-4th-quarter Please don't talk about Kobe Bryant, the man got carried to three rings by Shaq. They were 8th place in the west and kobe was averaging 35 pts per game until they got Pau Gasol. Don't say Kobe and MJ at the same time. One is a legend who will never be overshadowed, the other will rip out his teammates even though it was his fault they lost. Lebron is the best player in the league. He is the reason why the heat are relevant right now not Dwayne Wade. You gotta stop making posts while wearing your hater glasses its really obvious. If the heat wanna win this series shane battier, mario chalmers and james jones have to hit some shots and dwayne wade needs to be on his game not just the 2nd half but the whole game. Lebron needs to stop passing the ball at the end of games. Just go mid-post and do your thing. What a hardcore Kobe hater, lmao. | ||
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FreedomMurder
Canada200 Posts
I'm not a kobe hater im a realist. People who think kobe is among the greatest all time probably never watched the game and just saw highlights. They didn't see kobe go 6-22. They just saw him hit that shot at the end of the game. Maybe if he passed to andrew bynum and gasol more they wouldn't have gotten swept last year and eliminated so quickly this year. | ||
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Zdrastochye
Ivory Coast6262 Posts
On June 07 2012 02:56 FreedomMurder wrote: I'm not a kobe hater im a realist. People who think kobe is among the greatest all time probably never watched the game and just saw highlights. They didn't see kobe go 6-22. They just saw him hit that shot at the end of the game. Maybe if he passed to andrew bynum and gasol more they wouldn't have gotten swept. You're also ignoring LBJ's terrible decision making in clutch situations. I said it earlier I'll say it now, he's anti-clutch and his solid play is what is keeping him in the game until it gets to situations where just several possessions are the ones that win championships, whereupon he just passes the ball. He's a great player who's also the reason he has no ring, because he can't close out a game on his own. He could use some pointers from Paul Pierce. | ||
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FreedomMurder
Canada200 Posts
On June 07 2012 03:00 Zdrastochye wrote: You're also ignoring LBJ's terrible decision making in clutch situations. I said it earlier I'll say it now, he's anti-clutch and his solid play is what is keeping him in the game until it gets to situations where just several possessions are the ones that win championships, whereupon he just passes the ball. He's a great player who's also the reason he has no ring, because he can't close out a game on his own. He could use some pointers from Paul Pierce. I wish Paul Pierce would tell him the secret to "The Truth". Anyway people try to compare Lebron to MJ or Lebron to Kobe. Lebron is Magic Johnson. The sooner he realizes this the better. No I do not believe lbj is the player who is going to ice the game, to take that last wet 3 pointer over 2 faces to win the game. He hasn't had a reliable shooter on his team, ever really. No other player in the NBA right now can drop 30 points, 10 rebounds while keeping their team involved and active. LeBron has great clutch decision making. He won't take that stupid shot, he will make the right pass. Has this worked out for him? No. Will it in the future. Yes. Lebron will win rings. He needs someone who can finish what he starts, and that person isn't dwayne wade anymore im sorry. | ||
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Zdrastochye
Ivory Coast6262 Posts
On June 07 2012 03:09 FreedomMurder wrote: I wish Paul Pierce would tell him the secret to "The Truth". Anyway people try to compare Lebron to MJ or Lebron to Kobe. Lebron is Magic Johnson. The sooner he realizes this the better. No I do not believe lbj is the player who is going to ice the game, to take that last wet 3 pointer over 2 faces to win the game. He hasn't had a reliable shooter on his team, ever really. No other player in the NBA right now can drop 30 points, 10 rebounds while keeping their team involved and active. LeBron has great clutch decision making. He won't take that stupid shot, he will make the right pass. Has this worked out for him? No. Will it in the future. Yes. Lebron will win rings. He needs someone who can finish what he starts, and that person isn't dwayne wade anymore im sorry. What do you know that I don't that makes you so confident that he will win "rings"? He's a great player who is definitely chasing a championship, but you're guaranteeing that he'll not just win once, but multiple times? You're acting like he hasn't had a single good teammate in his entire career. It's kinda sad the excuses people make for him, especially since he's the only one who's put all this pressure on himself, and even funnier that in doing so he's basically prevented himself from being in desirable situations for him to carry a team. I don't hate LBJ, I admire what he can do on the court, but his on-court performance is being hindered by his off-court shenanigans. The three ring circus getting the Miami Heat's big three together is leading to their eventual downfall, as Wade is inexplicably deteriorating from his championship caliber and LBJ is left with not much better of a team than he had in 2008 come postseason. | ||
XaI)CyRiC
United States4471 Posts
1. Lebron is clearly not the reason the Heat are losing to the Celtics. The guy is literally doing everything for them, i.e. scoring, rebounding, defending, creating offense, etc. The fact is that the Heat are not a very good team overall, they're just carried by 2 transcendent players and one currenty-injured Allstar player. Their success has been despite the quality of their team overall, not because of it. More than anything, I think Bosh's injury hurt the Heat a lot because it took away one of their top 3 in a very top-heavy roster. Something else to consider: http://getbuckets.fantake.com/2011/01/09/dirk-nowitzki-and-lebron-james-black-swans/ However, I do think that there is some truth to those who argue that Lebron shrinks from big moments. I'm not saying he should be pulling a Kobe, but he definitely defers too much and is too passive. The guy is a matchup nightmare that should have the ball in every important play. There's no reason why he can't do what Dirk does, which is use the fact that he is unguardable to either score or set up a teammate to do so. I've seen too many plays where he only briefly touches the ball or doesn't touch it at all in late game situations, which should never happen. He's too good of a scorer and playmaker to allow that to happen. 2. I'm really tired of people using the Kobe needed Shaq/Gasol to win his championships to support the Jordan > Kobe debate. It boggles my mind that people constantly neglect the fact that Jordan needed Pippen to win all of his championships. Pippen, probably the most versatile wing player in the history of the NBA, a HOFer, an Olympian in his own right, and a guy who carried a Jordan-less Bulls team to a record that was only 2 wins short of the prior year with Jordan. An excerpt from his Wiki: Michael Jordan retired before the 1993–94 season, and in his absence Pippen emerged from Jordan's shadow. That year, he earned All-Star Game MVP honors and led the Bulls in scoring, assists, and blocks, and the league in steals, averaging 22.0 points, 8.7 rebounds, 5.6 assists, 2.9 steals, and 0.8 blocks per game, while shooting 49.1% from the field and a career-best 32% from the 3-point line. For his efforts, he earned the first of three straight All-NBA First Team nods, and he finished third in MVP voting. The Bulls finished the season with 55 wins, only two fewer than the year before Despite all that, it's always Jordan > Kobe because Kobe needed Shaq/Gasol, with no mention at all of Jordan needing one arguably one of the best players ever. Kobe and Jordan also played in different eras, with very different circumstances, which people always seem to ignore when arguing Jordan > Kobe, but bring up to refute Kobe >= Jordan. Bottom line: Let's drop the bullshit Kobe needed Shaq/Gasol argument to take away from his championships and accomplishments. At least until people start qualifying everything Jordan did by mentioning that he needed Pippen as well. FYI, here's a link to an article that has some good and bad points, but is worth considering when discussing the Jordan in the modern era arguments: http://hoopspeak.com/2010/10/would-michael-jordan-really-score-more-in-2010/ Tangent: I know that Kobe was the Robin to Shaq's Batman during their three-peat, but ask yourself if Shaq wins those championships without a player of Kobe's caliber next to him. Why don't people ever say Shaq needed Kobe to win his rings? Why don't people mention that while Kobe needed Shaq and Gasol to win his rings, Shaq needed Kobe and Wade (who is arguably a greater talent than Gasol) to win his? 3. I'm also tired of people still arguing that Kobe is a super clutch performer that somehow defies the odds when taking end-game shots. There's way too much evidence that shows that Kobe does not shoot the ball any better than any other star player in clutch situations. He's simply taken a lot and made some memorable ones in very big games. Things he should be given credit for are turning himself into the most complete offensive player ever (the guy can literraly score in more ways than anyone who's ever played) and thus a threat from anywhere on the floor at any given time, and for not shying away from those big moments and being willing to live with the consequences of failure. Unfortunately, he also goes too far and takes unnecessarily difficult shots all the time, which has hurt his teams repeatedly. Next season is going to be really interesting because these playoffs made a convincing case for him to defer more and dominate the ball less, which is the opposite way he was going during the regular season. As a Lakers fan, I hope that he does what he knows he should do, which is accept a reduced role on offense and work harder to help his teammates perform at their best to provide him with the help he needs to win a ring. | ||
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Leyra
United States1222 Posts
Lebron haters are some of the fiercest haters I've ever seen. Take what I say with a grain of salt cause I'm a Celtics fan, but Lebron's pefromance is pretty impressive most games, but I just don't think he has that killer instinct, which Kobe does have, and I fucking hate Kobe, lol. Kobe is killer to his own team, too, though  If Lebron would take that killer instinct and just go hard all the time, he could dominate the game like almost no other player we've ever seen. He has all the physical tools, and the talent. (although his jumper could use some work). Just a mentality and a work ethic thing for him, I think. Also, god damn I love watching Rondo play. | ||
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a176
Canada6688 Posts
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Zdrastochye
Ivory Coast6262 Posts
On June 07 2012 03:22 XaI)CyRiC wrote: However, I do think that there is some truth to those who argue that Lebron shrinks from big moments. I'm not saying he should be pulling a Kobe, but he definitely defers too much and is too passive. The guy is a matchup nightmare that should have the ball in every important play. There's no reason why he can't do what Dirk does, which is use the fact that he is unguardable to either score or set up a teammate to do so. I've seen too many plays where he only briefly touches the ball or doesn't touch it at all in late game situations, which should never happen. He's too good of a scorer and playmaker to allow that to happen. You've done a very good job in your write-up, and there's many points that you bring up that are completely valid, but you're WAY understating his anti-clutch behavior. Everyone in this entire thread talking about LBJ is (except of course, me). He has outstanding play for three and a half quarters, and then shies away from fully dominating close games. It's a fault that separates the highest echelon of elite players. LBJ passes the ball when he should be going one on one AT LEAST until he gets double teamed. If he could close out games, and be clutch, he'd have at least two rings by now. Everyone is understating this so much it's like everyone is teaming up to ignore this. When it's a matter of several possessions, he fails at dominating the game much like he usually does throughout. I'll shout myself blue in the face saying the same thing over and over until people stop understating this and realize it's the only argument you need to analyze LBJ and his lack of rings. | ||
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FreedomMurder
Canada200 Posts
On June 07 2012 03:22 XaI)CyRiC wrote: 2. I'm really tired of people using the Kobe needed Shaq/Gasol to win his championships to support the Jordan > Kobe debate. It boggles my mind that people constantly neglect the fact that Jordan needed Pippen to win all of his championships. Pippen, probably the most versatile wing player in the history of the NBA, a HOFer, an Olympian in his own right, and a guy who carried a Jordan-less Bulls team to a record that was only 2 wins short of the prior year with Jordan. I agree with almost everything you said except a few things. 1. Jordans team has always been understated. Pippen was an all around beast, Dennis Rodman is the best defensive player of all time, steve kerr. the list goes on.... This doesn't mean that jordan and kobe are comparable. We all know that Jordan was on some next level that has only ever been touched by Magic, Kareem and maybe Bird or Shaq. Kobe isn't a top 5 all time player, not even top 10 in my books. 2. Shaq would have won rings in LA without Kobe. He was completely untouchable, no one could even play D on him, it was a joke. A 300 pound man with finesse post moves. He wouldn't have won without wade, but without kobe 100%. | ||
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Erandorr
2283 Posts
2. Shaq would have won rings in LA without Kobe. He was completely untouchable, no one could even play D on him, it was a joke. A 300 pound man with finesse post moves. He wouldn't have won without wade, but without kobe 100%. How would that offence have worked without Kobe exactly? | ||
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jeeeeohn
United States1343 Posts
Wilt Chamberlain was, is, and always will be the greatest of all time. Then you have Bill Russell, World B. Free, Bob Cousy, Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Iceman, Doctor J, Dominique Wilkins, Pistol Pete Maravich (who was Rondo before Rondo was Rondo), Tree Rollins, Doc Rivers, The Detroit Bad Boys, Scottie Pippen, Hakeem the Dream, Nate Thurmon, David Robinson, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Reggie Miller, Bill Walton, Patrick Ewing, Moses Malone, George Mikan, Alex English, James Worthy, Rick Barry, Elgin Baylor, John Havlicek, Clyde the Glide, Jerry West, Dolph Schayes, Dennis Rodman, Kevin McHale, Elvin Hayes, Bob Pettit, Charles Barkley, Karl Malone, Gary Payton, Tiny Archibald, Walt Fucking Frazier, Isaiah Thomas, John Stockton, Oscar Robertson, and a hundred others. All of the above have been overshadowed by an amazing player who came in at the right time, the right place. However, just because everyone says he's the greatest ever to play, doesn't make him the GOAT. He doesn't seem like a particularly good person, either. Kobe is just doing exactly what MJ did, but gets hated on because he wasn't the first to brand his own name. Everyone seems to think that basketball started when Michael Jordan came into the league. As a matter of fact, there are entire generations of amazing players that may or may not have been better players and better people. I'm sick of MJ. No one else gets any love. | ||
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XaI)CyRiC
United States4471 Posts
On June 07 2012 03:54 FreedomMurder wrote:I agree with almost everything you said except a few things. 1. Jordans team has always been understated. Pippen was an all around beast, Dennis Rodman is the best defensive player of all time, steve kerr. the list goes on.... This doesn't mean that jordan and kobe are comparable. We all know that Jordan was on some next level that has only ever been touched by Magic, Kareem and maybe Bird or Shaq. Kobe isn't a top 5 all time player, not even top 10 in my books. Jordan and Kobe are definitely comparable, how can anyone possibly deny that? You can argue that Jordan was better, but not even comparable? Arguing that Kobe isn't even a top 10 player draws some serious doubt from me as to your opinions as well. His accomplishments alone put him there, and his athleticism and skills cement it. How many players have accomplished what he has? How many players have broken the records he has? You can say that he isn't the best ever and that he's a bad teammate, but saying he's not comparable to Jordan or even top 10 is just ignoring the facts. 2. Shaq would have won rings in LA without Kobe. He was completely untouchable, no one could even play D on him, it was a joke. A 300 pound man with finesse post moves. He wouldn't have won without wade, but without kobe 100%. Going to need to provide better arguments and evidence than that to be convincing. Some things to consider: Shaq failed to win a ring in ORL with Penny (who was the "next Jordan" of that time), didn't exactly cakewalk to a threepeat even with Kobe, and was also there when the Lakers lost to the Pistons while being guarded by Ben Wallace (undersized to say the least). I'll agree with you that Shaq was about as unstoppable as you could get during his prime, but that doesn't mean he would have won those three championships without Kobe. | ||
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jeeeeohn
United States1343 Posts
On June 07 2012 04:25 XaI)CyRiC wrote: Ben Wallace was / is a hall of fame level player. That dismantling by the Pistons was glorious. | ||
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Tyree
1508 Posts
That is why rings =/= greatness. Kobe's first 3 championships came because of Shaq, if you disagree with this then it is proof that you did not watch basketball at that time. Let me repeat that You did NOT watch that LA team when Shaq was the alpha male on that team. Either you are young and this was before your time or your interest in basketball came after Shaq left, there is no other plausible explanation. | ||
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MassHysteria
United States3678 Posts
Next season is going to be really interesting because these playoffs made a convincing case for him to defer more and dominate the ball less, which is the opposite way he was going during the regular season Do you mean he was going the opposite way as the season went on? It is of my opinion he was actually going towards that more as the regular season went on(not enough by any means ofc). He did revert back to dominating more once the playoffs came, which is something he seems to not be able to give up when he feels the pressure of the situation sometimes(same reason he likes taking the last shots, etc).edit:oops, a few posts too late since I took too long to post. I meant to submit after cyric's first post of the page. | ||
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