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On February 04 2012 02:10 Catch]22 wrote:
People are just trolling you. Similar hardware = similar performance.
I have an iPhone, and people keep telling me how shit it is, but are always unable to reply to the question "why do you think so?". Ihve tried several and the iPhone trumps them all so go figure.
For me, at least, it's not that the hardware is shit, but rather that the company who produces the hardware is shit. Apple is very controlling. They do their best to prevent you from doing anything with either the software or hardware they've made. I've never had an iPhone, but I do have an iPod touch 3rd gen and it's nice. However, I bought an Android about 6 months ago, and I don't think I'll go back to Apple mobile products. I can add memory to it, I can change some of the software features and the Droid market place is really nice and open.
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Opinion that MAC's are overpriced (And by overpriced I mean 3x price of PC) comes from prices Apple used put on upgrades when you build new machine through their web site. You want 4 gigs more RAM - $200 (And if you want 8 gigs more, well $600). While all companies have something like that, Apple took it ridiculously far, doing mark ups of 600% and over. I have not tried that for quite a while, but you get general trend.
Is it too much? I do not know let us do the math. On my custom built water cooled PC I spent about $2750 initially back in 2009. Since then I did quite a few upgrades. Around $3-3.5k worth of them. Case, PSU, Mobo, and CPU were upgraded once. Video card, headphones, display, mouse, mouse pad, and keyboard were upgraded few times. I also bought good speakers, printer, and SSD later on. As of right now I run i7 950 @4 ghz and thinking about upgrading to Ivy Bridge when LGA 1156 version comes out (a month or two) and new video card. That would be another $800-900 sacrificed to the mighty upgrade spirit.
So you can see how in the end MAC's do not seem prohibitively expensive to me. Should I have gotten a MAC and stopped upgrading? Possibly, but upgrading/overclocking is kind of a hobby I guess and doing same with MAC would be more expensive for sure. To put this in perspective amount I am paying for school dwarfs everything pretty quickly (About $6k every 3 months). Good thing I got a job. Can you imagine $36k in loans after only 2 years of schooling?
What apple does well is laptops - rest of the world only now started to catch up with them in terms of thickness/style/battery life. Intel's ultra books initiative will drive the price down for everyone while offering more options. Only a year ago if you wanted lightweight and powerful windows laptop you needed to get sony vaio z series, with a price tag (I think around $2.5k) that was much higher of then apple's mac book air. Now Asus and Acer offer quite a few alternatives for less then a $1000.
TL:DR sometimes it is worth paying extra to get a nice product with good support. Considering how much you need to shell out for upgrades to stay current in technology, price difference between a MAC vs PC is really inconsequential.
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*sigh*
Macs are good for some things and not for others.
PC's are good for some things and not for others.
NEITHER platform is perfect for everything.
Buy the one that is best for what you do and shut up about the other one.
/Thread
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On February 04 2012 03:31 Kui wrote:
You're really obnoxious... perhaps if you weren't such an asshole all the time people would be nicer about your subpar computer. Mac is not better, try listening to the overall majority instead of trying to proved they're wrong with random gifs and pictures. Mac has no customisation, is more expensive for the same product, runs less software, is generally slower, you're just paying more for the logo. Like designer clothes.
No customization. So the 4-core to 8-core upgrade, or slotting in an HD6870, or putting in Bluetooth, an SSD, etc, those aren't custom?
More expensive. Since that's what this thread about, you need to use arguments instead of statements.
Less software? I run Windows and Mac OS X on mine. I can run Linux. A Mac can run more software, instead, although I don't make a big deal of this.
The rest I'll ignore. By the way, if you don't want me to be an asshole - Stop being an asshole. i'm not claiming Mac superiority and supremacy anywhere, I'm trying to explain that Macs are equal in every way to other computers. I'm not trying to tell you to go out and buy a few Macs and go drink some kool aid. I'm not saying your little plastic box with as many LED's s possible is shit. (This is an example).
I'm being an asshole because of you
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Dude, are you seriously trying to compare some top-end computers by checking game performance? My brother has a lousy Phenom II, 4GB RAM and GTX 260 and he even downloaded some more detailed textures and extra special effects for Skyrim. Even with all that and some other tweaks that make it look better he has perfect performance at ultra settings.
Actually, I don't believe there is a game now that would pose a problem for setups like:
Core i5
4GB RAM
GTX 480
+ Show Spoiler [prices] +
Intel Core i5-2500K (3.3GHz, 6M Cache, 4x Cores) Overclocked to 4.5GHz Per Core CPU
ASUS P8P67 EVO (B3) P67 LGA 1155 SATA 6Gb/s USB 3.0 Motherboard
NVIDIA GTX 560 Ti Overclocked Edition 1GB 256bit DDR5 DX11 Graphics Card
Corsair Vengeance 8GB (1x4GB) DDR3 1600MHz High Performance Gaming RAM
500GB Seagate Barracuda 7200RPM SATA3 6.0Gb/s Hard Drive
Corsair TX650M 650W 80+ Modular High Performance Power Supply
Choice of CPU Cooling:
Noctua NH-D14 Dual Radiator 6 Heatpipe with 140mm/120mm Dual SSO Bearing Fans CPU Cooler
or
Corsair Hydro Series™ H60 High Performance Liquid CPU Cooler
Bitfenix Survivor Professional Gaming Case
24x Dual Layer DVD +/- Writer
Integrated 8 CH High Defination Sound Card
Integrated Gigabit LAN Card - Broadband Ready
LCD and OS Optional
24 Months Return to base warranty
This comes for ~1150 EUR, but it's way more powerful than it needs to be. It's a pre-built system.
Why won't you instead post some true benchmark results? This is nice: http://unigine.com/products/heaven/
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just checked out german apple site and configured a mac pro to be around the performance of my 1.5 year old pc.
price of the mac : 3.124,01 €
my pc when i bought it: 800 €
... and they want 375eur ( "8 GB (4 x 2 GB) [+ 375,00 €]" ) for ram? holy shit
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I own a pc but there are macs in my house.
I feel like this adequately describes the situation.
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On February 04 2012 03:31 HereBeDragons wrote:You need examples? Re-read every post that you made carefully, it's all over the page. You can also read angry responses from people in the thread quoting specific parts of your OP, such as Show nested quote +On February 04 2012 02:16 bonifaceviii wrote:On February 04 2012 02:14 exnomendei wrote:
I'm also willing to bet I know more about computers than 90% of TL. Somehow I'm thinking that the OP wasn't serious when he said this thread isn't a flame fest... or this Show nested quote +On February 04 2012 02:42 TheKefka wrote:On February 04 2012 02:04 exnomendei wrote:9 GB's of FB-DDR ( You probably don't know what that is  ) Are you shitting me lol? and so-on.
Oh, sorry, I must have written that poorly. I meant giving me examples of after people pointed out that I was using wrong language, where I proceeded to. The two quotes were of people attacking me personally about my OP. I believe I answered both with an apology.
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On February 04 2012 03:38 exnomendei wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2012 03:31 Kui wrote:
You're really obnoxious... perhaps if you weren't such an asshole all the time people would be nicer about your subpar computer. Mac is not better, try listening to the overall majority instead of trying to proved they're wrong with random gifs and pictures. Mac has no customisation, is more expensive for the same product, runs less software, is generally slower, you're just paying more for the logo. Like designer clothes. No customization. So the 4-core to 8-core upgrade, or slotting in an HD6870, or putting in Bluetooth, an SSD, etc, those aren't custom? More expensive. Since that's what this thread about, you need to use arguments instead of statements. Less software? I run Windows and Mac OS X on mine. I can run Linux. A Mac can run more software, instead, although I don't make a big deal of this. The rest I'll ignore. By the way, if you don't want me to be an asshole - Stop being an asshole. i'm not claiming Mac superiority and supremacy anywhere, I'm trying to explain that Macs are equal in every way to other computers. I'm not trying to tell you to go out and buy a few Macs and go drink some kool aid. I'm not saying your little plastic box with as many LED's s possible is shit. (This is an example). I'm being an asshole because of you
I'm sorry, but most people have a real problem not with the mac hardware itself, but the smug superiority that mac users feel entitled to.
If you'd started this thread with "hey, I believe Macs can be viable alternatives to PCs for these reasons. I'm not saying they're better, but equal, and useful for a number of different non-gaming tasks." then I think people would be much more able to have a real discussion in this thread.
Instead, you started with, "oh yeah, well if PCs are a motercycle, then Macs are a F1 car!!!!!!!" You might feel that you are above the platform fighting (possibly that Mac elitism showing, but I digress), but really you're just contributing to it.
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I have a distinct feeling that I am being trolled.
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On February 04 2012 03:34 Dekoth wrote:
*sigh*
Macs are good for some things and not for others.
PC's are good for some things and not for others.
NEITHER platform is perfect for everything.
Buy the one that is best for what you do and shut up about the other one.
/Thread
I think the inane OP is /thread, but this is fine too.
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IMO the difference between mac vs pc comes down to simple ideology, and what you want to get out of it. As someone who has used both and loved both, there are clear advantages and disadvantages to both sides. What it comes down to, is either a vertical system of product/software development (mac) or a horizontal one (pc). In an attempt to try to be somewhat bipartisan and avoid bias, I'll try to give a rundown of both (tho I am certainly not the end-all be-all expert in these things, but w/e)
note: i actually ended up writing a shitload more than I expected, so I spoilered my comparisons so it's the slightest bit less wall-of-text-y
Mac:
+ Show Spoiler +Mac has the benefit of being everything basically being built specifically for each software and hardware counterpart. Each aspect of hardware is taken advantage of to the fullest by the software. There are obviously a lot of advantages to this in terms of cost-efficacy and value (altho Apple kind of negates this with its high prices), but also provides an enormous amount of stability and provides universal standards that are always adhered to, which means you end up with little to no compatability problems. The compatability advantages becomes even more clear when you have other Apple devices. They play together so well and (in my experience) it's very easy to sync up all of your devices in comparison to dealing with windows-based devices.
This, however, has some disadvantages, mostly expressed in how poorly mac operates outside of the 'Apple bubble'. I have a lot of problems in dealing with itunes and other mac-based software as well as working with my iPod on my windows machine. Mac's design philosophy also severely limits consumer adaptability, and makes outsider troubleshooting very difficult. For 2 semesters and a summer, I worked at my uni's IT department, and I have worked on enough Macs to get really frustrated with how difficult it is to open them up, and have in-fact (despite tons of experience reparing windows laptops) managed to royally fuck up a macbook because it is just that damn difficult to get open. Mac's design goes entirely against the hacker and hardcore ideologies that promote interchangability, so if you're one of those people, I would not recommend using one.
Basically, Mac is tailored for the uninformed consumer (please don't take this to mean that I assume that all mac customers are idiots), a person who doesn't really care about getting the bleeding-edge, but wants to get the full package of user experience one can get from a computer/technology and pre-configured to do so. I think there is no doubt that there is a large market for this kind of thing (hence why apple is doing as well as it is), but also kind of alienates the people that want to set up their things themselves.
PC:
+ Show Spoiler +The PC ideology is pretty much the polar opposite of Mac. Instead of the vertical product design, where everything is put together for you, it's totally horizontal and encourages users to interchange new parts and to customize their own user experience. Windows works with literally any kind of hardware, and works pretty well on all of it, especially so when you can really get into the nitty-gritty and adjust a lot of the more basic stuff to suit you. This means that all PC's have a much larger inherent potential to be individualized, and naturally there's a lot of appeal for having your computer, instead of one set up for you by someone else. It also means that PC will inevitably be ahead when it comes to both individual product value as well as looking at bleeding-edge technology, because, again, you are encouraged to swap out for newer and better things, so that demand is driving the pc hardware market pretty hard. So PC's will inevitably be faster and more powerful than Macs (tho the difference is getting less and less noticable, especially given Mac's baby steps into the video game world).
On the other hand, because it is so open, and you have so many options, it leads to some issues when it comes to universal standards and compatibility. To do a proper pc build/hardware upgrade, there is research involved. You have to make sure you have the right type motherboard, right socket CPU, right input format for your internal devices (harddrive, dvd drive, etc, I actually had somebody come in with an external DVD drive with usb input and wanted me to put it into the computer), and yes, this only takes an hour or two for experienced computer users, but for people who have nearly 0 computer knowledge outside of browsing youtube/email and using a word processor, it can be intimidating.
PC's also have the issue of viruses and stability (altho these have gotten much better with Win7 IMO, i've seen a lot less virus and stability issues since the Uni switched to win7 from Xp, I came to IT right on the crux of that switch), so that is also something to consider, altho yet again, for experienced computer users, it comes down to research and fairly basic computer safety.
(now we move from mostly subjective to totally subjective  )
So, overall, what this really looks like to me, and something I'm sure a lot of you can relate to, is that this looks like the classic Casual audience vs the Hardcore audience kind of thing (altho Linux is like, hardcore-hardcore, but I won't really go there), and both have their own markets and their own proponents and their own critics and their own advantages and their own disadvantages. I really urge you, though, to think about it this way. We all know that the majority of the human population is stupid and ignorant. And I personally, would be a lot more comfortable giving them a mac, where it's hard to screw things up, and everything is all set up for you, than trying to give them a PC, where they can easily stumble into really stupid situations (where do I download RAM, anyone?). On the other hand, if you're one of those people who wants to run 2 copies of Half Life 2 and be able to run solitare whilst they load, then you're probably going to be much happier with a PC.
(also please note that I REALLY don't think that mac users are inherently stupid or something, that's not the message I am trying to send, tho I realize at points it seems like that. I think that mac vs pc is the equivalent of toyota camry vs corvette, one being superior for the general masses, the other for enthusiasts. This is also nearly 99% my own opinion)
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On February 04 2012 03:49 h41fgod wrote:
I have a distinct feeling that I am being trolled.
i have the distinct feeling that this whole discussion is completly pointless.
macs are (for the same hardware) far more expensive, that would be the most important argument (for me) not to buy one.
(some other facts disregarded that I think make them inferior to PC imo, but that's not the point)
every thread in every forum regarding PC vs. mac will result in a troll and/or flame fest.
macfags (sry, but there isn't another word that adequately macusers qq) will (almost) always think they got the better product. i let them be ... as long as they don't want to indoctrinate it on me (which many of them to regardless ...)
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On February 04 2012 03:55 Askr wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On February 04 2012 03:49 h41fgod wrote:
I have a distinct feeling that I am being trolled. i have the distinct feeling that this whole discussion is completly pointless. macs are (for the same hardware) far more expensive, that would be the most important argument (for me) not to buy one. (some other facts disregarded that I think make them inferior to PC imo, but that's not the point) every thread in every forum regarding PC vs. mac will result in a troll and/or flame fest. macfags (sry, but there isn't another word that adequately macusers qq) will (almost) always think they got the better product. i let them be ... as long as they don't want to indoctrinate it on me (which many of them to regardless ...)
So you don't want a business grade notebook, workstations, or 27" IPS monitors with a SFF computer. Congratz, you fit in the majority of all consumers. It doesn't mean their hardware is significantly more expensive than the competing products. You're beyond delusional if you think Macs are overpriced for what you get, try and find a 27" IPS and a SFF computer for significantly less than an iMac.
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I built this gaming computer for 1000$, it has an SSD, an HDD, GTX 560, and i5, and 8 gigs of ram. 700 watt power supply and 21.5 inch 2ms monitor.
I have had 2 macs, the first one was $1200, 1 gig of ram, core duo and a 2600HD for graphics. 500GB HDD. Starcraft crashed on this computer on lowest settings. 24 inch screen.
Bought a new mac for 1500$. And I thought for SURE this computer would last me, and it did, for a year and a half. i3 processor and 4 gigs of ram. AMD 5750 graphics card and 27 inch screen. The weird thing is though, this computer was specced high enough to run SC2 according to online (recommended 4 gigs and video card on the recommended list is slightly lower) It was pretty good for awhile when I played WoW, it ran it at 80 fps which is really good.
But for SC2, my goodness was it awful. If I had microsoft word open with sc2 the game would slow down, and dont even mention if I had Safari open....
This 1000$ computer runs Sc2, Tribes, streams in HD, and I can stream myself (something Mac cant do unless you pay I think) and unlimited amounts of Internet pages like Facebook and Twitter to talk to friends. Did I mention it does all three of those at the same time too as opposed to my 2 macs?
I realize there was a time discrepancy, but I'm not sure how big of a deal 1 and a half years is, the first Mac I talked about I understand would not be up to par.
But I still use my Iphone 4s and love it!
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Sorry but for me mac vs. PC doesn't fall on performance or style, its performance/price.
TBH, most of my friends that got fed up with windows and switched to apple did it this way:
Were using a shitty blackberry, went from blackberry to iphone 4/4S, no shit they would like it more. Switching from a BB to any high-end touchscreen is a huge improvement, they just happen to have switched to apple for aesthetic reasons and now have a social investment in apple.
OR, they were using a PC running windows vista (if you had vista I'm sorry for you, it was a bad time for windows until windows 7 fixed a bunch of stuff.) they then switched from a vista-based laptop to a macbook. No wonder they would be impressed. Switching from a 3-4 year old vista computer with a new macbook or a new window 7 based computer would both have yielded excellent results. Again this was a choice primarily for aesthetic reasons, not because of the technology versus price ratio.
You can buy a decent macbook, or a decent windows laptop, you can switch to an iPhone or an android based phone.
Depending on what you buy, you can get a windows computer with similar or better stats for MUCH less, we are talking up to 1/3 less, sometimes much more. I'm not talking about HP/Dell or some other massive brand that churns out lego computers. Things like alienware will obviously be pricier because of the name (always have been).
For example: a macbook pro 17 inch costs 2500, a shitload for what you get, granted its a nice laptop, 2500 bucks is a huge MSRP. The 15 and 13 inchers are less,the 15 being 1800.
Most similarly specced stock laptops (with same or bigger screen, similar or better graphics capabilities, same processing power, and Windows 7) will run less than $1k now, in the 800-1000 range.
So, when it comes down to it, what do you really value? I couldn't care less about aesthetics as long as they don't obtrude or draw away from the experience, which usually has me doing my research and picking the off-brand laptop running windows and the android based phone.
Apple produces hardware and software for their product. The price is set in stone, and it doesn't compete with similarly specced computers because Apple users are loyal and want the aesthetic.
Windows/android products are produced by MC/Google, then put into hundreds of different brands and devices from different companies. Obviously with a larger range of products carrying your software, a few things happen: more choices, lower prices, and generally lower-quality aesthetics. This is in direct contrast with Apple's generally higher prices, less options, and better control over the aesthetic aspect.
All in all, if you want a mac, get a mac, if you want a PC, get a PC. If price/quality matters more to you, you will probably end up getting a PC depending on your situation, then again a mac could end up being a better option if you find a good price on one, if your parents are buying and you are in college and don't game at all, you are probably going for a mac because that's just what people do in college when their parents are buying. If you game, chances are you are getting a PC (even though games run fine on Macs, the price/quality ratio plays a role, a cheaper windows-based computer will probably be able to run the same game comparably).
My qualifications: my gradeschool was owned by apple, every computer in the place was a mac (part of their indoctrination program lol). I had a PC at home. Needless to say, the one-button mouse soured me to apple from the start. My high school used PC, but they were old and crappy. My college uses macs.
I chose PC, I'm still not sure why, at this point it really is about cost/quality for me, and I can just get a better windows-based laptop for a better price than if I had bought a mac.
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Heres why I don't use mac:
The cost for similar performance vs a selfbuilt computer is twice as much. Now it may be more stable, but the cost increase does not justify this. Also, the amount of customization you have on a PC is superior. That being said, if it were for casual use, and I had unlimited money to spend, I would go with mac.
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bought a mac for work related things. i like having unix, its pretty nice.
also why are people complaining about the cost? of course a pre-built computer is going to cost more than buying parts individually.. its more expensive with PCs too
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So you're saying you're willing to pay a couple of hundred bucks extra and not be able to use a good chunk of software because you don't want to deal with drivers in windows and not change the stock coolers?
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On February 04 2012 04:11 KCrazy wrote:
bought a mac for work related things. i like having unix, its pretty nice.
also why are people complaining about the cost? of course a pre-built computer is going to cost more than buying parts individually.. its more expensive with PCs too
I also wanted to get iMac/hackintosh when im done with my current pc...and then i found Xmonad *angelic music starts playing*
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EPT
