So I found out a week ago that I will no longer be buying a GSL pass next season, as I can watch all GSL/KSL/GTSL/etc. vods with Chinese commentary on youku.com, the Chinese version of youtube. I haven't gone back to the GOMTV casts since, even though the quality is better and the loading is faster.
The reason? Skill level of the English commentary is AWFUL in comparison to commentaries in many other languages. Korean roommates tell me that the Korean commentators in SC2 are actually pretty damn good not too far behind BW commentators, and my Russian roommate tells me the level of Russian casts are usually much higher as well.
Personally, I find the Chinese commentaries to be better and preferable as well. The Chinese dual-casts usually breaks down as follows (percentages as estimates to convey my point):
20% joking/poking fun at players/not being serious
10% player introduction
40% fillers/simply stating what's happening on screen
10% game result predictions
20% in-depth analysis of builds/timings/etc.
Essentially, it all comes down to this; I can turn off the sounds/commentary from English casts and safety know I won't miss a thing from simply watching and not listening, whereas in Chinese casts I am constantly enlightened by the insightful observations/analysis of the commentators.
I know there have been discussions regarding specific English commentators, but overall I feel this is an issue that needs to be addressed. How did the situation arise? Are the English commentators just bad in comparison with poor game knowledge, does the English-speaking audience prefer this "easy-going", "state what's happening" type of commentary, or are the commentators simply delivering a product to suit the skill level of the intended audience?
Poll: Do you think English casts should focus more on in-depth analysis?
Yes (200)
83%
No (41)
17%
241 total votes
Your vote: Do you think English casts should focus more on in-depth analysis?
On January 26 2012 10:18 kukarachaa wrote: I can vouch for Russian cast being absolutely amazing and way more entertaining than the English ones, its on par with tastetosis when it comes to humor and fun, but with way more knowledge about the game, considering all the casters are in GM.
On January 26 2012 10:16 AndAgain wrote: I can confirm that Russian casts tend to be better than English ones. (Unfortunately, it's hard to find them because I don't know how to read Russian well.)
[quote]On January 26 2012 10:20 ggrrg wrote: You can't generalize "English casts". There are so many people casting in English and the differences between them are huge.
I'm sorry if I seem to be over-generalizing as I probably am, but on the whole I think most English casters offer less in-depth analysis than most Chinese/Russian/Korean/etc. casters.
I like my english casts how they are and I'm a little surprised to hear that the chinese casters go more in depth than english casters actually -. And I voted for english casts because I can understand english, though watching sc2 commentated in another language is fine as well.
german casts are much worse than english ones, but PLEASE PLEASE casters of the world, we (read: I) want more analysis. Thats why i love homestory cups, all the pro's just know what I want to hear.
On January 26 2012 10:08 piplup wrote: It's because everyone's trying to copy/one up tastosis
I agree with this, I think alot of casters are trying to be popular and liked, more than come off as smart or communicate about the game indepth. That being said I enjoy the lightheartedness of most English casters, and so the Tastosis style of lots of silly jokes has its place as well. It is unfortunate though how that tends to set the trend for others. On GomTV.net so many of the complaints from people that I see are about other casters simply not being like Tastotis.
People want different things from a cast, some people want in depth analysis and strategy talk, others want to get excited and just let the game be enjoyable to watch. Its impossible for a caster to appeal to everyone.
It would be interesting if you got hard data on this, for example in a cast of 10 minutes how many actual seconds is spent on each of your categories? The percentages you wrote are somewhat out of thin air and very dependent on the particular caster.
If possible changing the second poll would probably be preferable. I'm rather sure that most TL posters don't have the option to have any casting other than English, so it will get some pretty misleading results (if you're trying to make a point).
I kind of agree. There needs to be more analysis and less joking around. It's great that two co-casters have good chemistry and are good friends, but we don't need to hear about your daily activities in every single cast. If something important happens, please comment on it! This goes especially for the early game, where it seems that many casters have just deemed it as a downtime. Sure, commenting on the first SCVs built isn't that rewarding, but don't let the "downtime" last into minute 4-5, when builds are actually forming.
I think the problem with english casters is twofold, firstly, alot of them arn't actually good enough at the game/follow the trends which are happening at the top level closely enough to say something like "because this fifth unit is a stalker rather then a sentry, we are seeing blink into dt" or something like that. Alot of the casters in the foreign community are just essentially diamond/masters players who just talk about what is happening on the screen. The people who are actually capable of giving high level insightful commentary, such as artosis and day9, are clearly trying to gear their commentary to a less hardcore audience, as day9's dailies are mostly to help newer players, and the gsl is clearly (in my opinion) not meant to be watched by the high diamond players trying to make masters, but by the silver leaguers and their non playing friends.
If you watch artosis's stream (or the vods, he hasn't streamed since his kid was born) you can see how in depth he can go with his commentary, its just not that exciting for the casual viewer and requires quite alot of knowledge to understand.
Korean casters > all. Tastosis can be pretty funny and make some good calls but just the energy and hype the korean casters bring (in BW at least, never seen a cast with koreans in sc2 ) makes up for the stuff you don't understand. But after a while you still kinda get what they are saying because of the names of the unit, spells and what you see on the screen.
And most english casters don't do in-depth analysis just because they can't. They are just to bad at the game itself. :/
Well, i can only understand French (maternal language) and English... French casters are usually bad (imo), but sometimes I watch it because I'm tired of English. So, I can only say that I prefer English casts even there are better casts in other languages (and I would watch them if I can).. Your second poll is not good imo.
I am for more knowledge and in-depth commentaries.
edit: I would add there are many programers who provide sometimes amazing casting with a real big knowledge of the game (HSC casts by example, some of them really amazing)
not sure about sc2, but the first time i watched a korean BW VOD with subtitles I learned an insane amount of new stuff even though I had been ICCUPing for around a year and was C
I can confirm that Russian casts tend to be better than English ones. (Unfortunately, it's hard to find them because I don't know how to read Russian well.)
On January 26 2012 10:08 piplup wrote: It's because everyone's trying to copy/one up tastosis
Yeah, that's really true. Everybody is trying way too hard to be funny. Even Tastosis over do it.
I can vouch for Russian cast being absolutely amazing and way more entertaining than the English ones, its on par with tastetosis when it comes to humor and fun, but with way more knowledge about the game, considering all the casters are in GM.
You can't generalize "English casts". There are so many people casting in English and the differences between them are huge. I'd agree that a wide range of casters seem boring/superficial/lack knowledge etc. However, Day[9] is top notch and I'm certain that his casting skills at least match those of other Chinese/Korean pro casters. Pretty much the same goes for Artosis. Not to mention that there are a bunch of English casters, who might not be overly analytical but still provide an extremely pleasant viewing experience.
btw German casters are terrible... Khaldor used to be very enjoyable in German, but nowadays he pretty much casts only in English.
For what is worth, I think that tastosis intentionally try to make a good chunk of their comments accessible to beginners. I guess that their idea is that by doing so they can get more people on board. Now, this isn't in disagreement with what you said, it is just to point out that there might be good reasons why they don't do hardcore analysis all the time. On the other hand, it is true that some English commentators don't do hardcore analysis because the are incapable of doing it. I don't want to name names, but some casters are not good players themselves (and by that I mean not even masters level in NA and EU).
On January 26 2012 10:08 piplup wrote: It's because everyone's trying to copy/one up tastosis
And tastosis doesn't have hardly any player/game insight that they offer (regardless of what they KNOW, they are too busy telling us that you don't wanna fight 1 stalker with 2 unstimmable marines)
English Casters are doing a great job and I think people just like to complain or just have a different taste. Just because YOU think English casters aren't up to par but that is just your opinion, i enjoy a ton of casters and their various styles.
Also I don't know any known caster who is trying to be tastosis... So many different casters out there have their completely different styles and flair that they bring to the game. There is a reason why you see these casters that ALL used to be nobody, they worked hard, got noticed, and earned their job.
On January 26 2012 10:20 ggrrg wrote: You can't generalize "English casts". There are so many people casting in English and the differences between them are huge. I'd agree that a wide range of casters seem boring/superficial/lack knowledge etc. However, Day[9] is top notch and I'm certain that his casting skills at least match those of other Chinese/Korean pro casters. Pretty much the same goes for Artosis. Not to mention that there are a bunch of English casters, who might not be overly analytical but still provide an extremely pleasant viewing experience.
btw German casters are terrible... Khaldor used to be very enjoyable in German, but nowadays he pretty much casts only in English.
so, in GSL, which is what this thread is about, there's tasteless, artosis, maybe doa/moletrap.... aaaand...?
I prefer Korean commentators over most of the current English casters, but I'd take a good analytical English caster over a language I don't understand. I can't stand listening to casters who have excessive filler talk. I need strong analysis :/. If I understoof Korean I would pretty much take Korean any day though, and this is the same for me in BW.
On January 26 2012 10:31 RinconH wrote: Breakdown of notable English-streaming Casters:
Great: Artosis
Good: Tasteless Wolf Apollo German Dude w face piercing (always forget his name) Mr. Bitter Day-9
Okay: Khalador DJWheat
How many of those cast GSL?
How many of those are as knowledgable as any single korean GSL caster was 5 years ago, let alone now?
Only Artosis.
Every single Korean caster is a thousand times better, more informed about the players, and more konwledgable than Artosis. Not to mention they STAY ON TOPIC.
Implying Artosis is as good as the best of the Koreans is like saying Idra is as good as Jaedong.
I don't like it when people say "the BW casters are much more passionate" or whatever.
Just because they yell louder and more excitedly, it's not to say they are more passionate. It honestly seems a big forced when they go GEEEE GEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE all at the same time. It's kind of like latino football casters shouting GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOAAL
I think it's mostly a tradition of sorts. Anyhow, I cannot comment of the quality of the informativeness of the korean commentators' casting. What I hear when i listen to BW casting is one of the commentators talking at length in the early game, while the other commentator responds "ne" again and again. Who knows, maybe some serious high level discussion is at hand. I don't know. What I do know however, is that there is definitely room for improvement from ALL English casters, even Tastosis.
I love their jokes, it's a big reason for why I watch GomTv. However it's also bothersome when they don't seem to be paying attention and miss details or the build order entirely. To get a glimpse of how could their casting can be, try watching them cast a PVP or another P matchup. Artosis sometimes doles out some knowledge of cutting edge PVP, and it's great to hear, even though I'm not a Protoss
I agree, i think we need more casters that are more like DApollo and artosis, the english scene is trying to become more professional, and that would mean having deeper indepth analysis -- not the opposite. For some reason there's some sort of perception that professionality is appealing to mass media.. it simply isn't.
On January 26 2012 10:21 willoc wrote: Question: Are the Chinese and Russian casts live like the English ones?
The few times I've watched Russian streams it was a craftcup or some other online cup. I was pleasantly surprised by the quality of the commentating, even if my Russian isn't all that great.
there is a lot of chaff around.... i haven't watched gsl for about 6 months, got tired of opening up a vod and discovering that it wasn't tastosis.
it's become suprisingly evident that to keep my focus on a stream, an entertaining commentary is equally important to the quality of games. not necessarily analytical or faff, just entertaining with a spot of improvisation.
there's nothing less entertaining than a caster that has a vocabulary consisting of 3 words plus the SC2 terminology handbook, who sweats awkwardly when asked to 'fill' a 30 second pause... FFS wing it... do something funny... don't just go "lets look at the liquipedia page to see the brackets... oh look he's done very well he's top of his group!"... that's not my idea of entertainment.
incontrol, apollo, totalbiscuit, day9 and tastosis are pure entertainment...
The 20% "in-depth" analysis is almost never actually in-depth and any platinum player could tell you the same things. I literally gain zero insight from watching most casters, and I'm not even that good at SC2.
For me, GSL is one of the only places i can find any type of high quality commentary and analysis, but as you know its only from Artosis, because he loves the game so much, and truly understands how the game works, unfortunately Tasteless lacks the raw knowledge of the game compared to Artosis. I still think they are my favorite duo right now, and im not sure if its just because Tasteless is the play by play guy, or if he just doesnt play enough, but it feels like artosis is really the only one giving any useful info, again tho, still love them both. But i have to say, ive completely stopped watching any type of Vods, no husky, or HD, or day 9, or anything, they are all just too simple minded, and as a high Masters player, they are just stating the obvious stuff i already know. Frankly the only caster who really knows his stuff besides Artosis is Adebisi Starcraft, the guy really knows his shit inside out for all matchups. So right now i really feel stuck waiting for GSL to come on before bed, or Adebisi releasing some vods. Also the homestory cup for me was a real treat, hearing the pros actually talk about indepth tactics and nuances that regular casters just dont understand.
I just hope the level of commentary will rise with guys like Adebisi leading the charge IMO.
Now that GOM has the option to watch the casts in Korean, that's all I do now. No offense to Tastosis, but the Korean commentators are so much more entertaining. I don't even speak Korean. You can really feel their energy though, and I think it would be even better if I could understand them.
On January 26 2012 10:34 Rucho wrote: I don't like it when people say "the BW casters are much more passionate" or whatever.
Just because they yell louder and more excitedly, it's not to say they are more passionate. It honestly seems a big forced when they go GEEEE GEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE all at the same time. It's kind of like latino football casters shouting GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOAAL
I think it's mostly a tradition of sorts. Anyhow, I cannot comment of the quality of the informativeness of the korean commentators' casting. What I hear when i listen to BW casting is one of the commentators talking at length in the early game, while the other commentator responds "ne" again and again. Who knows, maybe some serious high level discussion is at hand. I don't know. What I do know however, is that there is definitely room for improvement from ALL English casters, even Tastosis.
I love their jokes, it's a big reason for why I watch GomTv. However it's also bothersome when they don't seem to be paying attention and miss details or the build order entirely. To get a glimpse of how could their casting can be, try watching them cast a PVP or another P matchup. Artosis sometimes doles out some knowledge of cutting edge PVP, and it's great to hear, even though I'm not a Protoss
There's a few transcribed and translated korean BW Vods floating around somewhere on teamliquid. They are leagues more informative/analytical than english BW casts. But thats BW, I have no idea how different it is in sc2.
On January 26 2012 10:36 shizna wrote: there is a lot of chaff around.... i haven't watched gsl for about 6 months, got tired of opening up a vod and discovering that it wasn't tastosis.
it's become suprisingly evident that to keep my focus on a stream, an entertaining commentary is equally important to the quality of games. not necessarily analytical or faff, just entertaining with a spot of improvisation.
there's nothing less entertaining than a caster that has a vocabulary consisting of 3 words plus the SC2 terminology handbook, who sweats awkwardly when asked to 'fill' a 30 second pause... FFS wing it... do something funny... don't just go "lets look at the liquipedia page to see the brackets... oh look he's done very well he's top of his group!"... that's not my idea of entertainment.
incontrol, apollo, totalbiscuit, day9 and tastosis are pure entertainment...
Considering 99% of vods with day9 in them are purely instructional, educational, and aimed toward spreading/improving E-sports (in particular, SC2), i really think it's bullshit to say that he is pure entertainment. Unless you mean his soul is of the essence of pure entertainment, in which case, i will allow it.
I enjoyed Khaldor in German, but haven't really had any experience of German casts outside of him. I don't speak any other languages to compare them to English.
I don't feel the "hype" that the Korean casters are meant to bring. I just listen to what they're saying and pick up patterns and shit like that (for the longest time, I just kept focusing on the 애 sound that's so common and wondering if there was a pattern to it. I know now, but it hasn't improved my enjoyment of the casts ).
I dunno if other people have the same sort of problem, but I can't enjoy shit I don't understand. I want to know what it means too much
Unfortunately I'm not fluent in another language so I can't compare the English casts.
The English speaking community seems to focus (generalisation of course) on the "entertainment" aspect of SC2, rather than the actual game, so to them it doesn't really matter if the commentators understand what is going on in the game or even they even talk about it.
Nearly every commentator would need to be replaced if we wanted to go down the analysis route rather than "play-by-play" and filler.
If I could understand what Korean commentators are saying, I would totally love to hear from them more than the English commentators. But I love Tastosis, Day9 and all the others as personalities, so it's hard to say that they are bad per se, but I really wish they would give more in-depth analysis, especially at how knowledgeable they are of the game.
I love Korean casting but I think it has to do with the flow of the Korean language. English really is such a choppy language where word sounds clash and mix terribly. They do yell a lot more. All that PASSION.
Don't let the door hit you on the way out. Tastosis are amazing and they drop the knowledge bombs when they need to. In fact they drop quite a lot of knowledge on you if you pay attention. They just joke during the slow parts and thats the way it should be. Some of the other casters don't necessarily have the same level of knowledge as them and you will get less knowledge but they do still maintain a decent balance.
On January 26 2012 10:42 ptrpb wrote: I love Korean casting but I think it has to do with the flow of the Korean language. English really is such a choppy language where word sounds clash and mix terribly. They do yell a lot more. All that PASSION.
Moletrap used to yell a lot too. Then everyone yelled at him to stop
I used to love watching korean broodwar casts with english subtitles when i could find them.... the korean bw commentators really were pretty awesome..
I've always enjoyed the Korean casters more, they seem more exciting. Kennegit linked a video to some OGN LoL game and the Korean casters made the hero picking exciting. OGN factor, go figure.
Reading the translated stuff from bw of Korean casters, they seem to talk about more of what he could be doing, and why they think so. I wish english casters did more of that. But there's a lot of stigma that goes along with being an english casters that they bring upon themselves, minus a few. Artosis for example, is one that avoids that, mad props to him ^^
I would definitely prefer more in-depth analysis (some of my favorite casters are Artosis- not necessarily when he jokes around with Tasteless, Day[9], and orb), but I'll take what I can get in English just because I'd like to at least understand the casters.
I noticed this in BW. Korean commentators would spend 75% of time on in-depth analysis of the game, less than 10% on what's happening on the screen, and the rest on jokes / related builds / events / backstory. Was always amazed by how much the commentators knew.
What's worse from the fact that only about 2-3 casters actually know how to play the game well, is that 99% of them don't know how to control the camera. I mute streams these days, but god how I wish they could just move around the map without missing things.
So I'm watching the IPL. Jeez. 'HE GOT THE SPIRE' - nope. Then 30 seconds of screaming 'THE SPIRE IS DYING'. Thanks. Great analysis. SO what's happening with the marine tank push behind this?? I'm learning a lot! Most casters ARE brain dead, teach you nothing about the game, on IPL just now they admit they don't know if upgrades effect Raven turrets - they would if they ever saw a replay 6 months ago of Mass Ravens [in pro games] but clearly they don't stay with 'what's hip' and came out of nowhere to blab on a mic for 60 minutes a day.
You could really apreciate the difference in game knowledge on Homestory Cup. The players casting gave amazing info on the games there, I really loved that.
Casters may focus too much on giving (or trying to give) an entertaining cast, but forget that analisis is also an important part in describing the game. The problem is that to make that kind of analisis you need a huge amount of general knowledge of the game, diferent builds and timings of each race, and that can only be gained by hard work, analizing tons of replays and studing different kinds of game styles. Players already have all that info on their head, so that kind of stuff comes naturally from them. Casters need to work on it.
It's unfair to compare SC2 with SC:BW. BW has been played over 10 years and casted for just as long. BW somewhat has been, for the lack of better term, "figured-out or textbook'ed". It is alot easier for someone to be very analytical with BW compared to SC2 where the trend is always twisting and unstable.
Truth be told, Korean SC2 casters aren't that splendid. Granted, they're ALOT (significantly) more analytical than English cast, however, they aren't always correct (Very unlike bw-counterparts and annoys me to death).
I'm not much of a critic so I usually am just pretty happy with anyone casting just because I like SC2 and having someone talk about it while the game is happening makes it more interesting to me.
I particularily enjoy GSL English casting. I really like the whole feel of their casting and their style. It makes me almost feel like I'm there, or a part of it because of the way they speak to viewers and eachother. I can listen to games without ever actually watching the video part and still enjoy them. I feel like there is a good amount of strategy talked about as well that helps me understand what's going on. I'm not sure if I'd enjoy it as much if it became purely analytical.
I really like analyses, but I think they have a time and place and I don't think live casting large tournaments is that time/place.
On January 26 2012 10:55 StRyKeR wrote: I noticed this in BW. Korean commentators would spend 75% of time on in-depth analysis of the game, less than 10% on what's happening on the screen, and the rest on jokes / related builds / events / backstory. Was always amazed by how much the commentators knew.
On January 26 2012 10:08 piplup wrote: It's because everyone's trying to copy/one up tastosis
We really aren't
Most are. You and Day9 are both very unique though, and don't attempt to copy other casters, and use their bandwagon slogans. So props on that TB . Personally I enjoy player casters, they are much more knowledgable, I would rather see Idra or Huk or MC or someone over even tastosis any day. Not only do fresh personalities bring a lot to the table, they just explain things on a much deeper level. They've played the same situation out thousands of times, there is just simply no way that full time casters that don't play much can compete with that.
Someone whos amazing at analytic casts is Grubby. That guy not only has a spectacular personality, he can explain why a play is doing something pretty much in every situation, at least every time i've seen him cast.
On January 26 2012 10:12 Leviwtf wrote: People want different things from a cast, some people want in depth analysis and strategy talk, others want to get excited and just let the game be enjoyable to watch. Its impossible for a caster to appeal to everyone.
It would be interesting if you got hard data on this, for example in a cast of 10 minutes how many actual seconds is spent on each of your categories? The percentages you wrote are somewhat out of thin air and very dependent on the particular caster.
yet, you have to admit, that you rarely ever see an english cast analysing the game/builds/timings (edit : in depth and through out a game). just because one caster can't fullfil every demand doesn't mean they should completely give up on certain aspects or every caster going with the masses. most of the times i will mute the cast after a while, because it gets boring.
imo a cast should add instead of amplify what i already see.
I think that with enough time, the English casting will eventually catch up in quality to the Korean casting.
Keep in mind that not only did Korea master playing Starcraft over the span of over a decade, they also mastered the art of broadcasting and commentating it. Hopefully with enough interest in SC2, the quality of English casts will eventually catch up to that of other languages, though this will take the hard work of all casters to up their game.
Although I don't know Korean, I often do hear how exquisite Korean casts are compared to English casts from the posts of various Korean-understanding TL members. I watched the recent interview with Hwanni, and he greatly praised TheMarine for being such a hard-working, knowledgeable caster during the WCG SC2 games.
TBH, although I am satisfied with the current state of English casting, I hope that casters will strive harder to improve themselves.
On January 26 2012 10:08 piplup wrote: It's because everyone's trying to copy/one up tastosis
And tastosis doesn't have hardly any player/game insight that they offer (regardless of what they KNOW, they are too busy telling us that you don't wanna fight 1 stalker with 2 unstimmable marines)
Artosis has a good bit of game insight, however tasteless is just oblivious lol. At this point I feel like hes riding on past success and knowledge, which of course, is very transferable to sc2, but all he can do is playbyplay and humor.
If you watch any regular sports broadcast in the English language, the % are similar to what you listed in the SC2 casts. Broadcasts are meant for the general audience, they are really there just to aid what is going on. For example, when I watch football, analysts are not spending most of the time talking about Cover-2 defense, how it mitigates crossing routes for receivers, etc.
As much as I'd like to have indepth technical analysis in a game, I think the amount given by tastosis/day9 is enough (ratio of tech info to other things). Too much of it and begins to feel like I'm sitting in a starcraft class. The homestory cup was awesome, but it was because again the players were big names themselves, and there was a lot of mixed banter/poking fun in the casts.
I dont know about casts in other languages cause I dont understand what they say, so cant really compare how the stack up against english language casts. But the korean casts sure sounds good, especially in pro league.
Most are. You and Day9 are both very unique though, and don't attempt to copy other casters, and use their bandwagon slogans. So props on that TB . Personally I enjoy player casters, they are much more knowledgable, I would rather see Idra or Huk or MC or someone over even tastosis any day. Not only do fresh personalities bring a lot to the table, they just explain things on a much deeper level. They've played the same situation out thousands of times, there is just simply no way that full time casters that don't play much can compete with that.
Someone whos amazing at analytic casts is Grubby. That guy not only has a spectacular personality, he can explain why a play is doing something pretty much in every situation, at least every time i've seen him cast.
It should be fairly obvious to anyone that a pro player will have much more insight than a caster. If you're a full time caster, you do not have time to be a full time player and vice-versa, as a result players have strengths casters do not and casters have strengths players do not. There are some players who cannot string a sentence together and have the personality of a hunk of plywood. There are some casters who serve to do nothing but irritate the shit out of their viewers.
This is why I only like to watch a few casters, such as Day[9], who actually tell me stuff I didn't already know. Watching Husky cast is like trying to make the production tab more interesting. One of the only GSL vods I've watched (since game 1 is free) was a TvZ on Bel'Shir beach. The summary of the almighty gods of StarCraft2, Tasteless and Artosis, went as such.
-Spent a full 3 minutes introducing the players (After I skipped about 12+ minutes of player intros, mind you) -Making vague references most people wouldn't get -Silence. More than any caster(s) I've ever seen -Giving a poor analysis of how the Zerg would defend a push that wasn't coming -Talking about map aesthetics, doodads, etc. -Laughing to themselves and not even putting the camera on the major timing attack of the midgame -More silence
I don't see what the hype is. Sometimes I envision myself casting the same games I watch as they play out, and while I obviously have a biased opinion, I feel I could often do a better job. Maybe one of these days, I'll grab a mic and some vods, throw it to the internet and watch. But that's another story.
The problem is that there is this misconception that a play-by-play commentator doesn't have to know anything about the game but this is very false. Every caster should put a lot of effort into playing sc2 as much as they can so they can build up their knowledge. If you look at all the top casters like tastosis, day9, etc they all actually play or have played the game a lot so they understand what they are talking about.
Also, playing random is bad. If a caster is reading this then pick once of the races, watch some replays of pro players and copy one or two builds per matchup. Then go on ladder and practice over and over until you get very good and get high up in the leagues. Then once you are decent with one race switch to another and so forth until you can play all three races. It's already hard enough to learn 3 matchups not to mention 9 at once lol. Also, once you get good at one race you should be able to transfer the mechanics to another race easily. I'd recommend playing zerg first or terran as these two take more apm then protoss.
In terms of actual quality of casting, I have recently been watching a lot of the Australian Open tennis tournament and I have to say this year its not as bad but usually the commentators say the most RETARDED things in between points and it absolutely drives me crazy. They say pointless things just for the sake of saying it. The commentary of sc2 matches is far and away better than the commentary of tennis and tennis is a sport with many millions of dollars in the industry so I think we should he happy that we arn't that bad. However, there is room for improvement and casters just need to learn how to play the game well and overall you should see a big improvement in quality of casting.
I'm gonna blame a lot of this on GSL and call it the "Tastosis Syndrome"
Everyone and their mom (amateur casters, IPL casters, NASL casters + more), love to try to imitate Tastosis because they believe them to be wildly successful - which in a sense they are.
But this leads to all these casters using corny jokes, saying random word or phrase X then ending it with the word man. Saying unit Y "are pretty good." And calling everything that is slightly interesting "sick" or "baller."
"I don't know if he can do it MAN." "Yeah voidrays are pretty good" "That was a sick build MAN" "He's soo goood"
Then they'll add in random jokes using the keyword "Like" - in particular Tasteless/Orb/Painuser will do this quite often "MKP was so LIKE give me your nerd tears MAN" (hard to explain but you might know what I mean)
On January 26 2012 11:04 eviltomahawk wrote: I think that with enough time, the English casting will eventually catch up in quality to the Korean casting.
Keep in mind that not only did Korea master playing Starcraft over the span of over a decade, they also mastered the art of broadcasting and commentating it. Hopefully with enough interest in SC2, the quality of English casts will eventually catch up to that of other languages, though this will take the hard work of all casters to up their game.
Although I don't know Korean, I often do hear how exquisite Korean casts are compared to English casts from the posts of various Korean-understanding TL members. I watched the recent interview with Hwanni, and he greatly praised TheMarine for being such a hard-working, knowledgeable caster during the WCG SC2 games.
TBH, although I am satisfied with the current state of English casting, I hope that casters will strive harder to improve themselves.
TheMarine, upon completion of Korean Military Service, came back as analytic caster and is accepted/loved by majority. He once revealed how he practices casting in a show called "Backstage Talk". He casts game after game alone without any sound. He tries to predict every game and see how much % he could predict it right. The flow, the Builds and ultimately outcome. This way, he can see if he is following the current trend of the game. Also keeps in check if his knowledge is uptodate with the rest of progamers. He concluded by saying he gets about 90%ish correct every practice cast.
Okay, so here is something to consider... tl;dr: High level analysis will not get SC2 new viewership.
You like more analysis in your casts, and that's fine. To be honest, I really enjoy hearing high level analysis when I watch Starcraft as well, and that kind of casting has it's place. But please don't try to say that that's what everything should be... and the reason why is because high level analysis will NEVER get anyone new into watching Starcraft. It is only enjoyable to people who are already into Starcraft, and already somewhat knowledgeable about the game.. but if we want SC2 to grow as an industry it must be accessible to people who don't necessarily even play the game at all.
You or I can listen to MC and MKP say cryptic things and have a wonderful time, or listen to Idra talk about what idiosyncrasies lead to the result of his game and be fascinated, but a new viewer that might be prone to becoming interested in SC2 will be confused and turn it off after 5 seconds and not be inclined to tune in again.
As an example, when Dota2 first hit, and they had that huge million dollar tournament, I tuned into the broadcast to see what this new game was like... the casters clearly knew everything about the players, teams, heroes, skills, tactics, etc... but as someone who never played Dota, I didn't understand a single thing they were saying. I forced myself to watch for a little while out of professional interest, but got bored very quickly and couldn't stand it for very long.
What do you see when you tune into a professional athletic sports broadcast? Do they go into deep analysis of excruciating specifics of the game? No, because that's not what the casual viewer wants, and it's casual viewers that make "normal" sports multimillion-viewer industries... Sure, they will give simple analysis like "the outfielders are pushed in because they don't think he'll hit it very far" but that's something you can understand without too much prior knowledge. You may think that "oh he's expanding so he can get a better economy" is "newb" but it's what casters need to be saying to appeal to a broad audience. I'm sorry, but no one that's not a player is going to give a flying fuck if someone cuts probes at 20 or 22, and they'll change the channel.
Now... why is this important? You may not care at all if the industry grows, as long as you are entertained, right? Well, that's a fair argument, but the flaw in that is that if the industry doesn't grow, it will stagnate and decline. If we ONLY depend on analysis like we see in Home Story Cups, then eventually the money will dry up and we won't have those at all.
So, to answer your question directly, why are our casts "newb?" Because we love SC2 as an eSport and want it to grow, and so we want to make it accessible so many others have the chance to love it as well. Let's not forget that a huge portion of SC2 fans got into it because a caster talked newb to us to show us their passion for the sport before we could understand it in depth.
Diferent languages - > Diferent audiences. I dont need the super analitical cast, and thats why when I football (not soccer you damn americans ) I prefer to listen to the radio casts, where they are having fun commentating. I used to not like mr Biscuit for example, and I grews used to enjoy his casts also. Every commentator is different and you cant make general assumptions. Even if I like to generalice about the fact I hate casts in spanish
I'm inclined to agree, although I don't really have a choice besides muting since I don't really speak another language.
For entertainment however, I actually prefer Korean casters simply because they do a better job at making games look more exciting than it really is. I also like TB's casting =3 He's so chill and pairing him up with Apollo = fav casting duo.
Most are. You and Day9 are both very unique though, and don't attempt to copy other casters, and use their bandwagon slogans. So props on that TB . Personally I enjoy player casters, they are much more knowledgable, I would rather see Idra or Huk or MC or someone over even tastosis any day. Not only do fresh personalities bring a lot to the table, they just explain things on a much deeper level. They've played the same situation out thousands of times, there is just simply no way that full time casters that don't play much can compete with that.
Someone whos amazing at analytic casts is Grubby. That guy not only has a spectacular personality, he can explain why a play is doing something pretty much in every situation, at least every time i've seen him cast.
It should be fairly obvious to anyone that a pro player will have much more insight than a caster. If you're a full time caster, you do not have time to be a full time player and vice-versa, as a result players have strengths casters do not and casters have strengths players do not. There are some players who cannot string a sentence together and have the personality of a hunk of plywood. There are some casters who serve to do nothing but irritate the shit out of their viewers.
Yeah you hit the nail on the head. Here is what I envision happening in the next couple of years. The current host of casters will gradually stop and retire, and the new blood will be retired players that played at a very high level for a long time who no longer have the drive to commit the time to play professionally. I think at this point that the game is just too young for people to cast full time that have an extremely exquisite knowledge of the game, because at this point, they should be peaking in skill and results. I think that the current casters who don't have a strong professional sc2 background, however, are doing very well given their obvious limitations.
Coupled with that, a lot of games are winged by the pro players. Builds and timings haven't had the time to settle into perfection, and players haven't been presented with every possible situation that could go wrong during a build, so it becomes somewhat of a free for all when something goes wrong. No one can expect casters to know what players are doing if the players themselves haven't even figured it out and are just trying their best. The game just needs to have run a longer life before casting can boom to that level.
Except the people paying for GOMTV aren't these people you're "expanding to". These aren't 'newbs' that need to be casted to like todlers, they know the game, most gamers know SC2, the community is well..the community. Not a bunch of random people in bars or stadiums. The simple explanation is technical casting is simply too hard compared to screaming what's happening on the screen, so you let yourself slide, and you will fight to stay there 'for the greater good'.
i think its simple, those who study the game and talk with players on their insight and whats in their head will cast better. in that sense i think korean casters are very professional about their job.
On January 26 2012 11:20 DarKcS wrote: Except the people paying for GOMTV aren't these people you're "expanding to". These aren't 'newbs' that need to be casted to like todlers, they know the game, most gamers know SC2, the community is well..the community. Not a bunch of random people in bars or stadiums. The simple explanation is technical casting is simply too hard compared to screaming what's happening on the screen, so you let yourself slide, and you will fight to stay there 'for the greater good'.
I do find the whole aversion to "screaming at the screen" to be a big bucket of double-standards, especially when the same people who decry it happily sing the praises of the Korean casters who scream even more than the English ones.
On January 26 2012 11:12 Moletrap wrote: Okay, so here is something to consider... tl;dr: High level analysis will not get SC2 new viewership.
You like more analysis in your casts, and that's fine. To be honest, I really enjoy hearing high level analysis when I watch Starcraft as well, and that kind of casting has it's place. But please don't try to say that that's what everything should be... and the reason why is because high level analysis will NEVER get anyone new into watching Starcraft. It is only enjoyable to people who are already into Starcraft, and already somewhat knowledgeable about the game.. but if we want SC2 to grow as an industry it must be accessible to people who don't necessarily even play the game at all.
You or I can listen to MC and MKP say cryptic things and have a wonderful time, or listen to Idra talk about what idiosyncrasies lead to the result of his game and be fascinated, but a new viewer that might be prone to becoming interested in SC2 will be confused and turn it off after 5 seconds and not be inclined to tune in again.
As an example, when Dota2 first hit, and they had that huge million dollar tournament, I tuned into the broadcast to see what this new game was like... the casters clearly knew everything about the players, teams, heroes, skills, tactics, etc... but as someone who never played Dota, I didn't understand a single thing they were saying. I forced myself to watch for a little while out of professional interest, but got bored very quickly and couldn't stand it for very long.
What do you see when you tune into a professional athletic sports broadcast? Do they go into deep analysis of excruciating specifics of the game? No, because that's not what the casual viewer wants, and it's casual viewers that make "normal" sports multimillion-viewer industries... Sure, they will give simple analysis like "the outfielders are pushed in because they don't think he'll hit it very far" but that's something you can understand without too much prior knowledge. You may think that "oh he's expanding so he can get a better economy" is "newb" but it's what casters need to be saying to appeal to a broad audience. I'm sorry, but no one that's not a player is going to give a flying fuck if someone cuts probes at 20 or 22, and they'll change the channel.
Now... why is this important? You may not care at all if the industry grows, as long as you are entertained, right? Well, that's a fair argument, but the flaw in that is that if the industry doesn't grow, it will stagnate and decline. If we ONLY depend on analysis like we see in Home Story Cups, then eventually the money will dry up and we won't have those at all.
So, to answer your question directly, why are our casts "newb?" Because we love SC2 as an eSport and want it to grow, and so we want to make it accessible so many others have the chance to love it as well. Let's not forget that a huge portion of SC2 fans got into it because a caster talked newb to us to show us their passion for the sport before we could understand it in depth.
Once again, very true. However, that doesn't mean that EVERY cast needs to cater to new viewers. I'd even go as far as to suggest that low level casting that caters to new players turns off more viewers that love sc2 than it attracts in new people. In an ideal world, which I know the world isn't , there would be two casts concurrently like an event for GSL. Stream 1 would be high level of analysis, and stream 2 would be more entertainment based.
I love that you guys are passionate enough to try your hardest to attract new viewers and grow esports, but if everyone tries that all at once, then we have no high level commentating either. The current viewer base that wants high level analysis is much larger than that of incoming new viewers. There needs to be a fine balance.
I feel like you're very right about the lack of in-depth analysis in English commentaries, but it seems like a lot of those casters that are popular without any certain insight into the game have become very popular due to their personality etc. I think there's a bunch of unknown or lesser recognized casters out there that deserve way more credit for their game knowledge such as Katu or Orb.
Thankfully the casters with a deeper lack of insight into the game usually stay away from making in-depth analysis, because whenever they try to it often makes them come off as a bit ignorant, but that's just my opinion anyway.
I only speak English and Danish fluently, and can understand most German and Spanish. I've listened to German ones such as TakeTV and Khaldor, but I still prefer the English ones atm.
I get the notion that casters who don't bother increasing their game knowledge take their priviledge a bit for granted, because I feel that in-depth analysis is part of what makes Starcraft a lot more entertaining to watch compared to huge sports such as football, tennis etc., which just has a lot of play-by-play commentary. I feel like I know the reason for pretty much most moves the pros do these days though, so I don't mind it if they joke around quite a bit either. I feel so connected, when casters make jokes about old video games and so on. :3
On January 26 2012 11:20 DarKcS wrote: Except the people paying for GOMTV aren't these people you're "expanding to". These aren't 'newbs' that need to be casted to like todlers, they know the game, most gamers know SC2, the community is well..the community. Not a bunch of random people in bars or stadiums. The simple explanation is technical casting is simply too hard compared to screaming what's happening on the screen, so you let yourself slide, and you will fight to stay there 'for the greater good'.
I do find the whole aversion to "screaming at the screen" to be a big bucket of double-standards, especially when the same people who decry it happily sing the praises of the Korean casters who scream even more than the English ones.
I don't speak Korean, and I don't claim to know the Korean casting appeal, but remember, the grass is always greener on the other side. Instead of pointing elsewhere and making claims, I think we should focus on improving English casts as its own individual entity. Sure its good. Sure its not perfect. Can we make it better? Yes. Do we need to base it off the Korean blueprint? No. If people want better casting that's in their rights to voice, however, I think its silly to point everywhere but English casts when doing so.