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Current height? It took'em about the same amount of time.
If you don't know how BW started, YES the scene developed over time but it was because people liked the game. The BW scene developed because people loved the game, not because Blizzard wanted an eSports scene.
SC2, on the other hand, didn't develop a scene, got bad image in Korea for illegal advertising, PC Bangs didn't pick up the game at first due to illegal advertising and pricing problems, Blizzard-KeSPA shit just tainting the whole image etc. etc. All of this even before talking about the mechanics of the game (for those who don't like SC2 due to its mechanism). And they're still trying to shove it down everyone's throat while thinking that they can shut down BW and force everyone to switch (Their official stance at the moment is different, but Blizzard-Gom stated in the past that they want BW gone). That + the fact that GomTV is only a computer application and borrows a timeslot from a anime cable station to broadcast GSLs, with subpar production quality compared to PL/OSL.
Don't get me wrong, I play both games and want SC2 scene to grow in Korea for sake of eSports in Korea. Realistically, LoL is going to help eSports more than SC2, given that SC2 actually had a good impact in Korea.
But LoL is so boring as a spectator sport. T-T
What you posted did enlighten me more to what happened at launch, as I was unaware of illegal advertising.
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why must i read about sc2 in the bw forum? is there no escape?
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On January 25 2012 07:50 RageCommodore wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 07:42 supernovamaniac wrote:
What SC2 needs at the moment is some mainstream coverage, as well as OGN picking up the game for better production value and more cable TV coverage. I don't really want to get into an argument, but it would really help if the current korean SC2 leagues would even reach IPL production value. I'm not sure if GOMTV can afford OGN-like production. They certainly don't lack the storylines and good games anymore, but more player/team content would really help them to create a better atmosphere. I can only imagine how epic the Blizzard Cup finals would have been if the production/hype was better. Maybe partnering with the obviously richer foreign leagues would help solve that issue. We'll see. Again, I just wanted to point that out, no need to start an argument.
Wow are you saying that IGN had higher production value for IPL3 than GOM for the Blizz Cup? Well maybe in terms of resolution on stream. They can't do the whole roaming reporter because its for one damn game. In every other aspect the Blizz Cup was better than IPL3; take a gander at this video breaking down all the amazing things GOM did: http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?id=299948
SC2 will never replace BW in Korea. Ever. I think at this stage its almost a fact, the numbers quite simply are not there at the ground level, people actually playing the damn game. No matter if OGN runs an SC2 proleague and even if TBLS switches I can't see SC2 being the heir to BW in gameplay or in an ESPORTS sense for Korea. Futhermore, without the base of Korea to build SC2 on, I think foreigner SC2 will die before the last expansion is released OR will plateau by the end of 2012.
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United States7639 Posts
On January 25 2012 07:57 Nightshade_ wrote:Show nested quote +Current height? It took'em about the same amount of time.
If you don't know how BW started, YES the scene developed over time but it was because people liked the game. The BW scene developed because people loved the game, not because Blizzard wanted an eSports scene.
SC2, on the other hand, didn't develop a scene, got bad image in Korea for illegal advertising, PC Bangs didn't pick up the game at first due to illegal advertising and pricing problems, Blizzard-KeSPA shit just tainting the whole image etc. etc. All of this even before talking about the mechanics of the game (for those who don't like SC2 due to its mechanism). And they're still trying to shove it down everyone's throat while thinking that they can shut down BW and force everyone to switch (Their official stance at the moment is different, but Blizzard-Gom stated in the past that they want BW gone). That + the fact that GomTV is only a computer application and borrows a timeslot from a anime cable station to broadcast GSLs, with subpar production quality compared to PL/OSL.
Don't get me wrong, I play both games and want SC2 scene to grow in Korea for sake of eSports in Korea. Realistically, LoL is going to help eSports more than SC2, given that SC2 actually had a good impact in Korea.
But LoL is so boring as a spectator sport. T-T What you posted did enlighten me more to what happened at launch, as I was unaware of illegal advertising.
Except it's not. I personally like watching LoL. The Season 1 championships at Dreamhack last year were the first game tournament I'd ever watched, and they were a lot of fun. Korea obviously agrees with me, because LoL is becoming pretty huge.
I hope that OGN's venture into LoL does well, because if it does, it will at least convince that gaming is still a sector worth capitalizing on and investing in (as opposed to pulling an MBC and switching to Kpop). That, by itself, will help BW ^^
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On January 25 2012 08:03 Kiett wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 07:57 Nightshade_ wrote:Current height? It took'em about the same amount of time.
If you don't know how BW started, YES the scene developed over time but it was because people liked the game. The BW scene developed because people loved the game, not because Blizzard wanted an eSports scene.
SC2, on the other hand, didn't develop a scene, got bad image in Korea for illegal advertising, PC Bangs didn't pick up the game at first due to illegal advertising and pricing problems, Blizzard-KeSPA shit just tainting the whole image etc. etc. All of this even before talking about the mechanics of the game (for those who don't like SC2 due to its mechanism). And they're still trying to shove it down everyone's throat while thinking that they can shut down BW and force everyone to switch (Their official stance at the moment is different, but Blizzard-Gom stated in the past that they want BW gone). That + the fact that GomTV is only a computer application and borrows a timeslot from a anime cable station to broadcast GSLs, with subpar production quality compared to PL/OSL.
Don't get me wrong, I play both games and want SC2 scene to grow in Korea for sake of eSports in Korea. Realistically, LoL is going to help eSports more than SC2, given that SC2 actually had a good impact in Korea.
But LoL is so boring as a spectator sport. T-T What you posted did enlighten me more to what happened at launch, as I was unaware of illegal advertising. Except it's not. I personally like watching LoL. The Season 1 championships at Dreamhack last year were the first game tournament I'd ever watched, and they were a lot of fun. Korea obviously agrees with me, because LoL is becoming pretty huge. I hope that OGN's venture into LoL does well, because if it does, it will at least convince that gaming is still a sector worth capitalizing on and investing in (as opposed to pulling an MBC and switching to Kpop). That, by itself, will help BW ^^
Not just BW. It will help the Korean eSports scene in general, possibly including SC2.
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Well, good day TL, I've allways seen the site from outside so, this is my first
post, this post is aimed to stop a little the ongoing BW vs SC2 war, as to
contribute and help the community to a neutral position so the thread goes back
to on-topic.
So, when you go around posts like lastest posts, and almost since the first
pages is easy to see people defending positions, BW and SC2 alike. However you
must remmember that you as a human being have a predominant likeness to do what
you are used to do, what I mean is, you're a habit animal, as such, you get
used to do or imitate things ever since you are born, from your parents, friends
and such.
It's easy then to fall in the trap to think that what you're used to see and
do is the correct way things should go (just because you see they actually work
pretty good), in fact, you don't naturally know what a good starcraft battle is.
It is something you learn in the road of your life.
It's a mindtrap, it's you fighting against yourself without even noticing it...
It's you fighting agains your own unconscious reason, it's nonsense for it,
YOU have seen how things were RIGHT, how come those things could be wrong?
even if you don't feel this is happening inside your brain, you canot see your
brain, you don't really know what the unconscious self is thinking.
But it's easy to know what he's thinking:
THIS was good and work, THAT looks not so good and it's strange, THAT must not work.
Even if you try to like other thing, your brain does not accept it, your brain
does what he wants to do, what he thinks is better for you, even if you
try to overcome yourself, you have an obstacle, you, even if you don't feel so.
'What is better - to be born good,
or to overcome your evil nature through great effort?'
Someday you learn to play BW, you learn, and get used to how it is, and you learn
to apreciate the good things about it, you learn to apreciate the tournaments
because you feel when you see them how hard it is to get there, or how much practice
and dedication those people have. And you get used to it, it becomes something
familiar that you think is right. You end up loving it.
But the people in SC2 is in the same situation, they learn to play and to apreciate
the game, the pros, the tournaments, maybe in less degree? maybe, maybe not.
But they like it, they have learned to like it, and they are in the same position
as the BW fans. Both of them are in the exact same position.
So it's a battle against yourself
"You liar, I have this *insert reason here* that proofs that *insert game here*
is better"
Do you?, have you noticed the way everyone has a reason? reason is not something
as tangible as you think.
Reason is the way the brain uses to not accept his own incompetence.
For each reason there is another reason valid enought to fight against the first
one, and another one to overcome the second, and so on.
'BW is more competitive because of mechanics'
'SC2 is more competitive because of a lot more new player'
'BW is more competitive because X'
'But SC2 have Y and is still young'
'But still 2 years have passed'
'But bla, bla bla.'
True is this:
This is not a BW vs SC2 war, those are different games, you can do and watch
the one you choose. This is a war of people unable to accept the game others choose
fearing in deep inconscient that his own game is in danger.
But it's their own fault that the danger exists, accept the other game
learn to like it, learn to not hate it, overcome yourself, overcome your nature.
and grow both games,
Time is the only one who can decide who lasts to the end.
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On January 25 2012 08:03 Klonere wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 07:50 RageCommodore wrote:On January 25 2012 07:42 supernovamaniac wrote:
What SC2 needs at the moment is some mainstream coverage, as well as OGN picking up the game for better production value and more cable TV coverage. I don't really want to get into an argument, but it would really help if the current korean SC2 leagues would even reach IPL production value. I'm not sure if GOMTV can afford OGN-like production. They certainly don't lack the storylines and good games anymore, but more player/team content would really help them to create a better atmosphere. I can only imagine how epic the Blizzard Cup finals would have been if the production/hype was better. Maybe partnering with the obviously richer foreign leagues would help solve that issue. We'll see. Again, I just wanted to point that out, no need to start an argument. Wow are you saying that IGN had higher production value for IPL3 than GOM for the Blizz Cup? Well maybe in terms of resolution on stream. They can't do the whole roaming reporter because its for one damn game. In every other aspect the Blizz Cup was better than IPL3; take a gander at this video breaking down all the amazing things GOM did: http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?id=299948
You're certainly right, but the GSL still lacks out-of-game content like epic player intros, hype videos and something like that (but like I said, that's only my take on the situation). IPL3 did those things better. Their amount of content has yet to be topped for me.
EDIT: PM me if you want to continue talking abou this, as I don't want to derail the thread any further (not that it isn't already a shitfest but whatever).
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On January 25 2012 07:13 Nightshade_ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2012 07:48 ShadeR wrote:Cool i suppose. + Show Spoiler +On January 24 2012 07:33 Woony wrote:On January 24 2012 07:30 HaruHaru wrote:
As long my precious BW players stay in the BW scene and there continues to be Proleague and Individual leagues, I am happy At this point It's pretty much an open secret that every BW team is training SC2 right now. However it will probably be the 'lesser' players that switch over right from the start. lol... is this really what people in SC2 forums think? I love how BW diehards think every SC2 player of any level is an idiot and has no idea what they are talking about. SC2 will take over BW, whether it's a months time or 3 years time, BW will die, SC2 will have balanced out. and SC2 will be superior. Remember it's still young, and BW was in a worse state of balance and bugs when it became popular, and took years to balance. Get used to the idea that a soon 15 year old game won't be played as much as it is now.
this (constantly repeated) argument is giving me an aneurysm
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Don't bother with arguing with sc2 fans, every single time there is an argument no sc2 fan has even bothered writing a post about why SC2 is good. They just use the defence that the current state of their game is shit and needs more time + Show Spoiler +Thorzain vs MC was a freakin waste of my time
Just look at Dustin Bowder the guy doesn't know what the hell he is doing. He basically tells BW lovers to fuck off, he is far too petty to be a good lead designer. Heck sc2 lan despite all the lag/dropouts in tournaments. DO YOU REALLY WANT CHAT CHANNELS?
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On January 25 2012 07:55 1Eris1 wrote:
Err, thats what I'm saying? SC2 hasn't lived up to it's expectations.
We can't use the "give it time arguement, BW had 10 years" though because SC2 was built off of BW's 10 years, and thus should have been delivered a lot better.
Of course Blizz might fix it, they also might also botch it and make the game completely fail. There's no gurantee as to what SC2 will be in 5 years
Trying to say that it'll take SC2 ten years to get good because it took BW ten years to get good is absurd. I don't even understand why SC2 fans make that point, because it's stupid. If you want to say SC2 is improving, look at GSL Open 3, look at the Blizzard Cup, and draw a trend line. It's a little flimsy, but at least it's not on it's face stupid.
But the argument that SC2 should have been BW quality at release date is probably just as silly. They are, after all, different games, with diffirent design philosophies. This is one of the reasons I think SC2 and BW can co-exist, because "good SC2" is starting to be a different thing then "mediocre BW" like in times past. BW is all about mechanics and control. SC2 is moving in that direction, but is becoming more about multitasking and most importantly: forcing errors.
Good BW is refined and elegant. It is scultpure. It is art. If Flash were to play a B- on ICCUP, the B-'s strategies, builds, and execution would be literally irrelevant, because Flash is sufficiently better that he doesn't need to react. It's like figure skating, but with hydralisks.
I'm not entirely sure what good SC2 is. It's messy. It's sloppy. It's dropping three places at once while attacking a fifth and flying a medivac into a clump of mutas because you're busy. It's nuking ten times and hitting his army once. It's baiting your opponent into attacking down a ramp where you have a concave. It's sloppy and ugly and fun in a professional wrestling kind of way.
In short, they are different games, with different appeals. It's fine to like one and not the other. Lots of people do. It's fine to like both. Lots of people do. It makes no sense to switch out BW for SC2 instead of just have two proleagues. The one and only reason anyone expects SC2 to replace BW is because it has "Starcraft" in the name. It's no different from assuming LoL will replace SC2 because they're both video games. They're pretty different.
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On January 25 2012 08:43 Ribbon wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 07:55 1Eris1 wrote:
Err, thats what I'm saying? SC2 hasn't lived up to it's expectations.
We can't use the "give it time arguement, BW had 10 years" though because SC2 was built off of BW's 10 years, and thus should have been delivered a lot better.
Of course Blizz might fix it, they also might also botch it and make the game completely fail. There's no gurantee as to what SC2 will be in 5 years Trying to say that it'll take SC2 ten years to get good because it took BW ten years to get good is absurd. I don't even understand why SC2 fans make that point, because it's stupid. If you want to say SC2 is improving, look at GSL Open 3, look at the Blizzard Cup, and draw a trend line. It's a little flimsy, but at least it's not on it's face stupid. But the argument that SC2 should have been BW quality at release date is probably just as silly. They are, after all, different games, with diffirent design philosophies. This is one of the reasons I think SC2 and BW can co-exist, because "good SC2" is starting to be a different thing then "mediocre BW" like in times past. BW is all about mechanics and control. SC2 is moving in that direction, but is becoming more about multitasking and most importantly: forcing errors. Good BW is refined and elegant. It is scultpure. It is art. If Flash were to play a B- on ICCUP, the B-'s strategies, builds, and execution would be literally irrelevant, because Flash is sufficiently better that he doesn't need to react. It's like figure skating, but with hydralisks. I'm not entirely sure what good SC2 is. It's messy. It's sloppy. It's dropping three places at once while attacking a fifth and flying a medivac into a clump of mutas because you're busy. It's nuking ten times and hitting his army once. It's baiting your opponent into attacking down a ramp where you have a concave. It's sloppy and ugly and fun in a professional wrestling kind of way. In short, they are different games, with different appeals. It's fine to like one and not the other. Lots of people do. It's fine to like both. Lots of people do. It makes no sense to switch out BW for SC2 instead of just have two proleagues. The one and only reason anyone expects SC2 to replace BW is because it has "Starcraft" in the name. It's no different from assuming LoL will replace SC2 because they're both video games. They're pretty different.
Maybe I should have worded a little better. I didn't mean SC2 should have been as good as BW upon release, that would be ridiculous, but I definetely think it should have been considerably better. The amount of time time Blizz has had to work on it is staggering, and personally I think they dropped the ball. Hard.
Maybe they can fix it within the next few years, maybe they can't. I just don't think we should assume they will, because they haven't really shown much signs of it, despite their supposed "hard work" HOTS looked flashy, but it also looked terrible in terms of gameplay, to the point that even some of the current SC2 pros were ripping on it.
Eh whatever, I was mostly talking to the guy who said SC2 was definetely going to be the go to game in 5 years, which well it could be true, I doubt it, from the way things are looking with design and LoL.
edit: And the point about LoL was not that it was going to run the other game out of business, but that it was going to be the dominant game in the scene.
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On January 25 2012 08:33 TrainSamurai wrote:Don't bother with arguing with sc2 fans, every single time there is an argument no sc2 fan has even bothered writing a post about why SC2 is good. They just use the defence that the current state of their game is shit and needs more time + Show Spoiler +Thorzain vs MC was a freakin waste of my time Just look at Dustin Bowder the guy doesn't know what the hell he is doing. He basically tells BW lovers to fuck off, he is far too petty to be a good lead designer. Heck sc2 lan despite all the lag/dropouts in tournaments. DO YOU REALLY WANT CHAT CHANNELS?
i like sc2 and brood war. i'd point to game 1 3 4 and 6 of Leenock vs Jjakji in the GSL november finals (only game 1 is free on gom's site though) to showcase some entertaining sc2 games, if you ignore artosis and tasteless that is.
but i don't want to start arguments, hell i want the two communities to exist without these flame wars that typically only occur when anti-fans of sc2 start posting btw, it's kind of a trend at this point yeah sc2 fans make stupid comments about how bw should move on to sc2, just ignore them half of them are trolls the rest of them their opinions don't matter.
thats why i've been silent in defending sc2. i like bw too, i don't want arguments though. i thought i'd make a thread stating that kespa is looking to move SC2 into it's own proleague, and that they look fully committed to BW as well, and i got this trash.
http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors7/vod/66643
for leenock vs Jjkaji.
both are very young (16 and 17 western korean) Leenock was in the FOu BW clan before switching and i'm unsure about jjkaji i think he was a B teamer for i want to say woongjin not sure though but both tend to show very good games no matter the opponent. and the two met in a finals that was the most exciting and close finals we've have in sc2 so far, mostly the finals have been one sided or lackluster because of a definite skill difference. the games were played mid december so they are fairly recent, and sc2 has come an immensely long way since many people first gave it a chance. but yeah at least humor me and watch game 1 if you want to bash sc2, it's fine if you do, i don't give a crap what you think about the game, because i don't think either game arguing with each other over who is the best makes any sense or does any good. it's just people trying to prove to themselves they are doing the right thing.
sorry for the semi-rant guys. 
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@PrinceXizor, that was one of SC2's better series, but game 1 was so overrated. If Leenock had bothered to scout fully it would have been a pretty dull game. I think some of the later games are much better examples.
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On January 24 2012 07:57 HyperionDreamer wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2012 07:32 gngfn wrote:On January 24 2012 07:30 HaruHaru wrote:
As long my precious BW players stay in the BW scene and there continues to be Proleague and Individual leagues, I am happy The claim is that the second half of Proleague will be SC2. Without BW Proleague, there are no professional BW players. Wait, what? When was this announced????
It wan't. It's people assuming there can be only one Proleague.
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United States11393 Posts
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EPT
