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While I understand that there's a need to discuss this matter, this thread has way too many trash posts in it. Please think carefully about what you want to say. Ad hominem attacks on Swedish people in general, calling you fellow Starcraft fans idiots etc etc will be dealt with with harsher punishment from here on out. Keep it civil people.
Page 230: Here's some more stuff that'll get you banned!
- Conspiracy theory mongering about MLG and GOM
- Comparing people to Hitler
- Posting useless one liners of arguments that have already been repeated ad nauseum. |
On December 15 2011 02:23 Govou wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 02:21 MorroW wrote:On December 15 2011 02:18 Femari wrote:On December 15 2011 02:13 Kryptic.610 wrote:On December 15 2011 02:07 Tachion wrote:On December 15 2011 01:42 MorroW wrote:
but dont you guys agree in general making a rule where if a game doesnt matter, player should be allowed to request for walkover? or do you prefer them to be forced to play a game that doesnt matter? because this to me is far more important discussion than whatever else happened here
a rule like this to me, makes perfect sense It's one game. Just play it for the fans, it's really not that big a deal. Small price to pay for being able to participate in the biggest tournament in the world. Like Morrow put it earlier, Naniwa shouldn't be forced to be an actor. Naniwa is the probably the most genuine progamer out there, I hate that Gom is trying to destroying the integrity of the game. This whole situation made possible and brought to you by Gom's horrible format! Basically, Gom shouldn't shit where they eat. Naniwa shouldn't be forced to be an actor, but if he should do his job. He is a pro gamer. He legally agreed to the format and to said he'd play all the games. Naniwa acted highly unprofessionally and childish. So what you went 0-3, you agreed to the format and said you'd play all your games. Instead you threw a fit and decided fuck GOM I'm going to throw this game and he got punished for it. Naniwa is the one destroying the integrity of the game. GOM is being a professional organization and not rolling over cause some childish player is upset of a format that HE AGREED TO. sorry but were you in the same room where gomtv talked to naniwa about the terms and wether or wether not he had to play all his games regardless of the situataion? if what your saying is true, if they player agrees before the tournament to play all the games regardless of the situation, then yes he did wrong. but if thats not the case your just lying and theres no reason to discuss with u are you saying Naniwa didnt read or know about the format? before agreeing to play in front of TV audience in a scheduled match? Morrow, I wish you all the best in korea and show foreigner pride but I just dont support such perspective.
He's saying, that people calling Naniwa childish actually have no tangible proof, that he agreed to play all the games, regardless if they had any impact on the outcome of the tournament. So they shouldn't be calling him out on this.
Given their history, where these matches weren't actually played, it would be very surprising, if they changed their mind just for this tournament.
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On December 15 2011 02:23 LeopoldStotch wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 02:19 wei2coolman wrote:
It's not like he broken any rules >.>
GSL, what a joke. I'll definitely NOT buy a pass this season. Are you people that blind? Read the OP. - During a match, a player shall not offend the opponent or audience with abusive behavioursAt least read the other side of the story before you pass judgement.
I think the reason that no one is really taking that rule serious is that its so incredibly arbitrary. What offends me may not offend you and vice versa. I may be offended by you 4 gate-ting me who knows? You can't just disqualify a player for "offending someone" otherwise I could just go into a GSL match and go 100-0 because my opponents are "offending me" with their play and therefore should be disqualified. Also I highly doubt that Nestea was actually offended that he got a free win in a match that didn't matter, GOM is just taking this way out of proportion.
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On December 15 2011 02:26 ElephantBaby wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 02:23 zeru wrote:On December 15 2011 02:20 LeopoldStotch wrote:On December 15 2011 02:01 kickinhead wrote:On December 15 2011 01:54 FuzzyJAM wrote:
Well this is. . .unfortunate.
Reasonable decision from GOM. Sucks for Naniwa, but it's his own fault completely. how can anyone truly mean this? He threw a game that didn't matter - How is it reasonable to deny him a code-S spot he clearly earned from MLG (and I remember vividly how commentators, twitter-posts etc. stated that nani has won a Code-S spot so don't try and tell me otherwise, because this was one of the highlights of that MLG for me - Nani getting into Code-S), to totally call him out and to trashtalk about him and even publish statements from other totally close-minded coaches from the KeSpa-era that publicly shit on Nani. Because he threw a game that didn't matter? Was it stupid by Nani? Yes. Was it a slap in the face to his fans? Yes. But the fact is, that it's understandable due to the stupid format, his emotional status and there is no clear ruling that allows GSL to deny his Code-S spot. By the logic ppl like you apply, you should be able to put ppl in Prison that forgot to buy you a birthday-present.... -.-° Cuz thats also disappointing to you and there is no rule against it, so you can apply any punishment you feel is accurate; just totally arbitrary and because you can.... Too bad there is a rule against what Naniwa did. - During a match, a player shall not offend the opponent or audience with abusive behaviours What bitbybit did was pretty offensive to the audience. so was all the 1-1-1ing some seasons ago :/ No, they are not. Their intentions were to win, they followed all rules of this game.
THIS
believe it or not bitbybit actually won games with his random 10 minute scv allins
naniwa, on the other hand...
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On December 15 2011 02:24 Warillions wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 01:51 kickinhead wrote:On December 15 2011 01:37 zala2023 wrote:On December 15 2011 01:34 dawnstone wrote:On December 15 2011 01:29 BlitzerSC wrote:On December 15 2011 01:22 MorroW wrote:On December 15 2011 01:14 Velr wrote:On December 15 2011 01:11 HappyChris wrote:On December 15 2011 01:09 MorroW wrote:On December 15 2011 01:04 HolydaKing wrote:[quote] so it would have gone in your mind to play like naniwa? in one of the most prestigious tournaments? just look like how extremely bored he looks. so disrespectful, while he could have gained so much respect. i suppose you have seen the video or even the live game, but go here if you haven't www.fomos.kr/gnuboard4/bbs/board.php?bo_table=talk_gossip&wr_id=394130 you dont ban a player for not having his hands on his keyboard while playing, if that was the case sjow wouldnt be a progamer anymore (:D) also you dont ban someone for looking bored this is a proffecional sports and players play by the rules of the tournament. naniwa did not break any rules. what is there left to say? Hahaha Morrow thats just so mean to sjow. lol Ahm.. If Naniwa would just have done nothing at all, this would also not be ban worthy? Because.. He is in the game, he just did do nothing... Because well... He was 100% throwing that game on behalf, i don't care how it looked.. No one should care how it looked. He did it, he got what you should get for stuff like this. we are progamers, not actors. if you want to watch acting go pay for a movie instead of a sc2 tournament they tournament admins again, must allow players to give walkover in a match that doesnt matter. its the format and the rules that allow stuff like this to happen. situations where players dont want to win, always gets messy. so im not saying what naniwa did was ethical or not, that doesnt matter to me. what matters to me is that gsl fucks up, points the finger at naniwa but not only that, punishes him for not acting a game if i was in naniwas position id request for a walkover, if not id drink 10 cups of coffee and get some food poisioning or some shit. because a player never wants to act serious in a game. because if he loses people think he played bad and serious, and if he wins, people know his build order. its a lose lose situation for a player to get into a situation where he has to play a televised game that doesnt matter You should probably watch some real sports, especially soccer. Do you see players of a team that got eliminated in the champions league that have to play the last match just sits on the field ?? No, they try to play as better as they can even if they are playing against Barcelona/Milan/Inter ecc. No they play with their B-team instead....... Pointless point you are trying to make. Since the players have something to gain from these games they can improve their chances for a spot in the staring line up for the next game, and some of them might even have salaries depending on how many games they play. So dont make retarded arguments please since Naniwa had nothing to gain from that game. sure naniwa had nothing to gain, but what about the people who paid to see the games? gomtv is not going to let naniwa shit on the people who paid to be entertained by their tickets lol does naniwa get paid for exciting moves and nice plays? Does he get paid for being your dancing monkey? No, he gets paid if he wins and for representing his team/sponsors. If Nani looses sponsorship-contracts by doing sth. like this, I can understand it, but if you run a tournament with a bad format and expect a player to reveal strategies, endure stress and basically work for your entertainment without the possibility to gain any money from it, just because you are expecting it, you're not running a tournament, but variety-show and they should payN ani for it if they want him to entertain them. How can ppl not get this: Progamers PLAY FOR MONEY! If you are entertained by them, good, but you cannot blame them for not entertaining you and not to work for free AND even reveal strategies/playstyles on live TV. I mean, WTF: In recent history, Millenium has conceded 2 Clanwars in advance without even playing it out, so they could've even won those clanwars, but they didn't even try. What did IPL do? They apologized to the viewers and talked about it without going totally apeshit-crazy and Millenium got called out for it. Very simple and easy. And to the ppl who payd for it: You didn't see it written somewhere that there was a minimum of games you'd be able to see and that they will at least be 5 minutes long and you can get your money back if you are not entertained, so don't act like little children and accept the fact that stuff like this happens. THIS!!!! but its a double edged blade. GOM needs the players, the players need GOM. theres other tournies and theres other players. both have seperate interests and noone has to play by the other's rules. they can work together if they both want too. theres other tournies for naniwa to make money at and theres other players for gom to show. its a business move and time will tell if it was a good one for GOM or not. also time will tell if naniwa feels his character isnt making it in the esports industry. im all for self expression but theres a time when you need to smart up and shut up. however its not that time. hope naniwa tells GOM to kiss his ass and i hope other players bandwagon.
It's true what you say, but what is Naniwa to GOM? Nothing. There are heaps of players that could take Naniwas position, both in Korea and around the world; The GSL is also is one of the best SC2 tournements in the world.
You think other players will just boycott the GSL because of Naniwa? I doubt it, maybe some foreign players, but it still won't stop GOM from making a killing with their korean players, but lets face it, foreigners will still travel to Korea because that's the Holy Grail in SC2!
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1) Due to LXP agreement, Naniwa earned a Code S Seed.
2) 2012 had a format change, where GOM had two "code s seed" spots that they were going to use as invites instead of a direct MLG seed like the 2011 season. Due to this format change, Naniwa was supposed to be one of these code s seed invites instead of getting that direct MLG seed
3) Since they were spots they were going to use as invites, they saw yesterday's games and revoked that invitation using the excuse that it's an invitation.
1 and 2 contradict each other
2 is the correct one since it is 2012 and there was no seed from providence
GOM considered him worthy because of providence but they chose not to invite him anymore due to his performance
Then it is less harsh since he did not earn a spot since the exchange was not concrete nor contractual. It is up to GOM and Naniwa messed it up
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On December 15 2011 02:22 Condor Hero wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 02:20 LeopoldStotch wrote:On December 15 2011 02:01 kickinhead wrote:On December 15 2011 01:54 FuzzyJAM wrote:
Well this is. . .unfortunate.
Reasonable decision from GOM. Sucks for Naniwa, but it's his own fault completely. how can anyone truly mean this? He threw a game that didn't matter - How is it reasonable to deny him a code-S spot he clearly earned from MLG (and I remember vividly how commentators, twitter-posts etc. stated that nani has won a Code-S spot so don't try and tell me otherwise, because this was one of the highlights of that MLG for me - Nani getting into Code-S), to totally call him out and to trashtalk about him and even publish statements from other totally close-minded coaches from the KeSpa-era that publicly shit on Nani. Because he threw a game that didn't matter? Was it stupid by Nani? Yes. Was it a slap in the face to his fans? Yes. But the fact is, that it's understandable due to the stupid format, his emotional status and there is no clear ruling that allows GSL to deny his Code-S spot. By the logic ppl like you apply, you should be able to put ppl in Prison that forgot to buy you a birthday-present.... -.-° Cuz thats also disappointing to you and there is no rule against it, so you can apply any punishment you feel is accurate; just totally arbitrary and because you can.... Too bad there is a rule against what Naniwa did. - During a match, a player shall not offend the opponent or audience with abusive behaviours What about manner mules, proxy nexi?
Those are only done when someone has clearly won or lost the game. What Naniwa could not be considered a game.
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On December 15 2011 02:28 Korelle wrote:
If they want to remove a players well earned seed because "Korean Culture" demands Naniwa pay then that's a perfectly fine action for a Korean Starcraft League. Unfortunately this isn't the KSL, this is the GSL, and if they want to be taken seriously as a "Global" Starcraft League then treating a player like this when he hasn't broken any rules, especially a foreigner, isn't conducive to this.
Ultimately it's their choice whether they want Naniwa in their competition or not, but it's also my choice as to whether I want to spend money on this companies services, I was previously planning to, but after this incident I certainly won't be spending a penny on any GOM.TV services in future; due to their actions which to me seem just as unprofessional as anything Naniwa has done.
Naniwa didn't earn anything. There was no seed for MLG providence.
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Good move in the long run. Helps keep the integrity of the GSL leagues and you can bet your butt Naniwa will think twice before doing something shortsighted like this again. Also, he didn't technically earn the spot so it isn't like Gom is taking something away from him, it was a privilege and a bonus and he blew it.
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NaNiwa wasn't the one being unprofessional here. GOM.tv just did the most unprofessional thing anyone's done in SC2 so far...
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On December 15 2011 02:28 hypercube wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 02:22 zala2023 wrote:On December 15 2011 02:14 Jepsyn wrote:
This whole thing is utter bullshit and Mr Chae is a joke. Just because Koreans hgold their self to some bullshit standard of STUPID HONOR that actually means ZERO doesnt mean everyone else has to...
Naniwa is right.. GOM is totally fucking wrong.. Period
User was warned for this post its not necessarily about honor naniwa was shitting on gomtv and all the people watching the game, now hes getting punished for his shit What does that even mean? Isn't this just a way of saying: "I was upset, I'm glad he got punished" I mean, even if you think he deserves punishment it should be for something more than making people upset or "disrespecting" them.
Yup, no one is forcing you to watch a team/player that has been struggling. You are entitled to boo them, but you cannot grab a fucking gun put it to their heads and say play! PLAY YOUR FUCKING BRAINS OUT OR I'LL SHOOT YOU.
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On December 15 2011 02:26 LeopoldStotch wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 02:22 Locustrockz wrote:On December 15 2011 02:20 LeopoldStotch wrote:On December 15 2011 02:01 kickinhead wrote:On December 15 2011 01:54 FuzzyJAM wrote:
Well this is. . .unfortunate.
Reasonable decision from GOM. Sucks for Naniwa, but it's his own fault completely. how can anyone truly mean this? He threw a game that didn't matter - How is it reasonable to deny him a code-S spot he clearly earned from MLG (and I remember vividly how commentators, twitter-posts etc. stated that nani has won a Code-S spot so don't try and tell me otherwise, because this was one of the highlights of that MLG for me - Nani getting into Code-S), to totally call him out and to trashtalk about him and even publish statements from other totally close-minded coaches from the KeSpa-era that publicly shit on Nani. Because he threw a game that didn't matter? Was it stupid by Nani? Yes. Was it a slap in the face to his fans? Yes. But the fact is, that it's understandable due to the stupid format, his emotional status and there is no clear ruling that allows GSL to deny his Code-S spot. By the logic ppl like you apply, you should be able to put ppl in Prison that forgot to buy you a birthday-present.... -.-° Cuz thats also disappointing to you and there is no rule against it, so you can apply any punishment you feel is accurate; just totally arbitrary and because you can.... Too bad there is a rule against what Naniwa did. - During a match, a player shall not offend the opponent or audience with abusive behaviours explain to me how doing a strategy that is almost guaranteed to lose you the game is abusive? If that's the case than Nestea needs some punishment as well. Why does Nestea need punishment?
i mean if we're punishing people who do strats that are almost guarenteed to lose, Nestea is an offender
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On December 15 2011 02:27 tomtom2234 wrote:
What a joke. To think I was actually thinking of buying a pass. Players should get together and let them know shit like this is not acceptable.
it's funny because most korean players tweeted that what naniwa did was inexcusable/stupid/disrespectful/etc
so no, I don't think players will "get together"
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On December 15 2011 02:29 windsupernova wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 02:28 Korelle wrote:
If they want to remove a players well earned seed because "Korean Culture" demands Naniwa pay then that's a perfectly fine action for a Korean Starcraft League. Unfortunately this isn't the KSL, this is the GSL, and if they want to be taken seriously as a "Global" Starcraft League then treating a player like this when he hasn't broken any rules, especially a foreigner, isn't conducive to this.
Ultimately it's their choice whether they want Naniwa in their competition or not, but it's also my choice as to whether I want to spend money on this companies services, I was previously planning to, but after this incident I certainly won't be spending a penny on any GOM.TV services in future; due to their actions which to me seem just as unprofessional as anything Naniwa has done. Naniwa didn't earn anything. There was no seed for MLG providence.
Read frontpage of thread
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On December 15 2011 02:27 zeru wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 02:25 LeopoldStotch wrote:On December 15 2011 02:21 eteran wrote:On December 15 2011 02:20 LeopoldStotch wrote:On December 15 2011 02:01 kickinhead wrote:On December 15 2011 01:54 FuzzyJAM wrote:
Well this is. . .unfortunate.
Reasonable decision from GOM. Sucks for Naniwa, but it's his own fault completely. how can anyone truly mean this? He threw a game that didn't matter - How is it reasonable to deny him a code-S spot he clearly earned from MLG (and I remember vividly how commentators, twitter-posts etc. stated that nani has won a Code-S spot so don't try and tell me otherwise, because this was one of the highlights of that MLG for me - Nani getting into Code-S), to totally call him out and to trashtalk about him and even publish statements from other totally close-minded coaches from the KeSpa-era that publicly shit on Nani. Because he threw a game that didn't matter? Was it stupid by Nani? Yes. Was it a slap in the face to his fans? Yes. But the fact is, that it's understandable due to the stupid format, his emotional status and there is no clear ruling that allows GSL to deny his Code-S spot. By the logic ppl like you apply, you should be able to put ppl in Prison that forgot to buy you a birthday-present.... -.-° Cuz thats also disappointing to you and there is no rule against it, so you can apply any punishment you feel is accurate; just totally arbitrary and because you can.... Too bad there is a rule against what Naniwa did. - During a match, a player shall not offend the opponent or audience with abusive behaviours I'm offended by the era of 1-1-1 (and many others aswell). Please remove all players that used that build from CodeS. Basing decisions on such a vague and subjective rule is terrible. It's offensive to you because it had a high rate of success right? The point is that it's a terribly vague rule and you can apply a large number of scenarios to it which they didnt care about. proberushing is the last thing id call abusive and offensive lol
Wich would be no problem if a certain player would not have acted in a totally unprofessional and stupid way...
Vague rules have their merits.. You can apply them to tons of bullshit when it comes up whiteout having to make specific rule for every occasion. It gets problematic when you use them for very minor stuff, this wasn't minor.
There is 1 thing and only 1 thing a professional athlete should not do:
Lose on purpose.
He can play funny/bullshit.. BUT he can not lose on purpose (unless it's some 100% fun event)... Thats like the worst possible thing a professional athlete can do.
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On December 15 2011 02:10 BigKahunaBurger wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 02:09 Ninjahoe wrote:
Err that's a load of bullshit, top finisher at MLG always gets Code S seed, why would it be any diffrent at providence?
GOM covering up their ass... Oh my god do you even read posts or do you just blindly slap the keyboard and hope for the best? GOM didn't send any korean invites to providence. Hence, they also didn't give out any Code S invites. Thats how the partnership worked.
Sorry for not reading through 5000 posts.
In that case they shouldn't have said he got the Code S seed in the first place...
And to everyone of you saying he was invited to Blizzard Cup, think again...
It was decided when they announced Blizzard cup that 1st and 2nd in Providence would earn a spot in Blizzard Cup.
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On December 15 2011 02:25 MorroW wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 02:23 Govou wrote:On December 15 2011 02:21 MorroW wrote:On December 15 2011 02:18 Femari wrote:On December 15 2011 02:13 Kryptic.610 wrote:On December 15 2011 02:07 Tachion wrote:On December 15 2011 01:42 MorroW wrote:
but dont you guys agree in general making a rule where if a game doesnt matter, player should be allowed to request for walkover? or do you prefer them to be forced to play a game that doesnt matter? because this to me is far more important discussion than whatever else happened here
a rule like this to me, makes perfect sense It's one game. Just play it for the fans, it's really not that big a deal. Small price to pay for being able to participate in the biggest tournament in the world. Like Morrow put it earlier, Naniwa shouldn't be forced to be an actor. Naniwa is the probably the most genuine progamer out there, I hate that Gom is trying to destroying the integrity of the game. This whole situation made possible and brought to you by Gom's horrible format! Basically, Gom shouldn't shit where they eat. Naniwa shouldn't be forced to be an actor, but if he should do his job. He is a pro gamer. He legally agreed to the format and to said he'd play all the games. Naniwa acted highly unprofessionally and childish. So what you went 0-3, you agreed to the format and said you'd play all your games. Instead you threw a fit and decided fuck GOM I'm going to throw this game and he got punished for it. Naniwa is the one destroying the integrity of the game. GOM is being a professional organization and not rolling over cause some childish player is upset of a format that HE AGREED TO. sorry but were you in the same room where gomtv talked to naniwa about the terms and wether or wether not he had to play all his games regardless of the situataion? if what your saying is true, if they player agrees before the tournament to play all the games regardless of the situation, then yes he did wrong. but if thats not the case your just lying and theres no reason to discuss with u are you saying Naniwa didnt read or know about the format? before agreeing to play in front of TV audience in a scheduled match? Morrow, I wish you all the best in korea and show foreigner pride but I just dont support such perspective. well clearly naniwa did not know what he agreed to because no remotely smart person would probe rush knowing he would lose code S to it ive never played a tournament where someone said i HAD to play. giving walkovers is standard (if the game doesnt matter) and you get away with it in all tournaments ive played this far. so wouldnt be surprised if naniwa was under the same impressions
well there probably wasn't anything about code S
however, you are right in the sense that he did not know about the format before agreeing the play. Maybe GOM tv should have held a quizz on tournament structure and how he was required to play every match giving least amount of effort by progamer standard.
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Wow the least I can say is that this kind of stories never fails to highlight the community under its true colors. It's a shame, really. At the end of the day, I won't be surprised if/when this community ends up disappearing along with its favorite game.
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On December 15 2011 02:27 Govou wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 02:24 Snijjer wrote:On December 15 2011 02:21 Govou wrote:On December 15 2011 02:18 Snijjer wrote:On December 15 2011 02:09 Warent wrote:On December 15 2011 02:02 Holloworb wrote:On December 15 2011 01:53 MorroW wrote:On December 15 2011 01:45 Govou wrote:On December 15 2011 01:42 MorroW wrote:
but dont you guys agree in general making a rule where if a game doesnt matter, player should be allowed to request for walkover? or do you prefer them to be forced to play a game that doesnt matter? because this to me is far more important discussion than whatever else happened here
a rule like this to me, makes perfect sense when the money and sponsors are involved you dont get to chose which games you dont want to play as a player. if it is scheduled, and if you are paid, you should play. and at least make in plausible. do you watch world cup? I guess you dont well as a player, again, i would never want to act a game for my fans. would make me feel like a fraud. plus i would never want to watch or hear that flash (who i am fan of) would be forced to act a game that doesnt matter but if you sign the contract and make it clear with the tournament admins that you HAVE to play ALL games, then this was wrong by naniwa. but we get into these iffy situations at times because of the tournament organisation, and their format doesnt make it clear to the players what they have to do when they sign up for the tournament. if gsl said in beforehand "naniwa, even if you lose 0-3 and some other guy lose 0-3, you still have to play your game against him even if the game doesnt matter at all, try to make the game look good okok?". so agreeing to these things in beforehand is the orgas responsibility, not the players if naniwa knew this would revoke his code S, im 110% sure he wouldnt probe rush. but the orga failed to "warn" him or make it clear to him about the conditions which is the reason all this happened in the first place. that is why i think it was wrong for gsl to point the finger at naniwa and punish him. that is why i think its the tournament orgas to blame, not the player I understand your reasoning MorroW., but i can't say I agree. You can't get explicitly warned about everything you aren't alowed to or shouldn't do in this world. Everyone is making sport analogies in this thread because thats what you should be comparing yourselves to. Lets say that Djurdgården and AIK met for the final match of the season, there's nothing on the line, all the spots in the league has been decided. So one team decides they dont want to play, they keep score on their own goal etc. You really think there wouldn't have been repercussions? Again the fotball... They would both use their B-teams with unexperienced players whom have everything to gain from showing off their skills to coaches, talent scouts etc. thus making the match count - for the players. And thus this analogy fails - again. No your understanding of what an Analogy is fails. Naniwa is not a set of individuals, he is the team. The team decided to rest their top players - that's their strategy. Their strategy is one which lost them their game. Naniwa played the SC2 game. His strategy - probe rush - was a losing strategy. Naniwa didnt field B team. Fielding B team would be similar to choosing infeior build or cannon rushing. What naniwa did was just standing around fiddling his thumb on the field. there is a degree of effort to be excused. If Naniwa did at least a cannon rushing or 4 gate, he wouldn't get kicked out of the code S. Instead, he a moved his probe. You're right he probably fielded team C, but it doesn't matter - because the result is the same thing as fielding team B. you dont get it. It's about the result. It's not about Naniwa emotion and the work he put in. I can find many other qualified koreans who put more hours than him. It's about the competition. Where Naniwa showed none. I see many times less competitive team managing to win against other team because of competition. I'm not even asking Naniwa to show that much effort. A moving his probe was not fielding a C team, it was F team.
?? You're complaining about him not competing - the same thing happens every other sport where there are meaningless game being played. Which is the entire point.
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Been a forum lurker for some time now, and this is the first thread I've seen with this much hate, anger, racial bias and lack of reading comprehension since the whole Stephano/Millenium/Complexity mess a while back. Basically this is what I think it boils down to.
Did Naniwa have the right to 6 probe rush in a [to him] meaningless game? Certainly, just like you have every right to say 'fuck you' and give the middle finger to your boss after he assigns you 100 pages of busywork. Was it professional? Nope. Was it smart? Probably not. But I can sympathize considering he had just lost 3 very close games which he could have won. Still, considering the responses he gave during the TL interview, its pretty much a given that he threw that last match against Nestea.
On the flipside, did Gom have the right to punish Naniwa by revoking potential Code S seed? Absolutely, just like your boss has every right to fire you after you curse him out and hand him back 100 sheets of blank paper. Was the punishment a bit harsh? Probably, but Gom is sending a very clear message about what they will and will not tolerate in their tournament. It was pretty obvious that after pulling that shit in Korea, Naniwa was going to be punished in one way or another and this is just the form it took.
tl;dr, This is a pretty big overreaction from both sides of the issue and will probably blow over and be forgotten in a few months just like Stephano's contract issues.
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On December 15 2011 02:28 smakme7757 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 02:24 Warillions wrote:On December 15 2011 01:51 kickinhead wrote:On December 15 2011 01:37 zala2023 wrote:On December 15 2011 01:34 dawnstone wrote:On December 15 2011 01:29 BlitzerSC wrote:On December 15 2011 01:22 MorroW wrote:On December 15 2011 01:14 Velr wrote:On December 15 2011 01:11 HappyChris wrote:On December 15 2011 01:09 MorroW wrote:
[quote]
you dont ban a player for not having his hands on his keyboard while playing, if that was the case sjow wouldnt be a progamer anymore (:D)
also you dont ban someone for looking bored
this is a proffecional sports and players play by the rules of the tournament. naniwa did not break any rules. what is there left to say? Hahaha Morrow thats just so mean to sjow. lol Ahm.. If Naniwa would just have done nothing at all, this would also not be ban worthy? Because.. He is in the game, he just did do nothing... Because well... He was 100% throwing that game on behalf, i don't care how it looked.. No one should care how it looked. He did it, he got what you should get for stuff like this. we are progamers, not actors. if you want to watch acting go pay for a movie instead of a sc2 tournament they tournament admins again, must allow players to give walkover in a match that doesnt matter. its the format and the rules that allow stuff like this to happen. situations where players dont want to win, always gets messy. so im not saying what naniwa did was ethical or not, that doesnt matter to me. what matters to me is that gsl fucks up, points the finger at naniwa but not only that, punishes him for not acting a game if i was in naniwas position id request for a walkover, if not id drink 10 cups of coffee and get some food poisioning or some shit. because a player never wants to act serious in a game. because if he loses people think he played bad and serious, and if he wins, people know his build order. its a lose lose situation for a player to get into a situation where he has to play a televised game that doesnt matter You should probably watch some real sports, especially soccer. Do you see players of a team that got eliminated in the champions league that have to play the last match just sits on the field ?? No, they try to play as better as they can even if they are playing against Barcelona/Milan/Inter ecc. No they play with their B-team instead....... Pointless point you are trying to make. Since the players have something to gain from these games they can improve their chances for a spot in the staring line up for the next game, and some of them might even have salaries depending on how many games they play. So dont make retarded arguments please since Naniwa had nothing to gain from that game. sure naniwa had nothing to gain, but what about the people who paid to see the games? gomtv is not going to let naniwa shit on the people who paid to be entertained by their tickets lol does naniwa get paid for exciting moves and nice plays? Does he get paid for being your dancing monkey? No, he gets paid if he wins and for representing his team/sponsors. If Nani looses sponsorship-contracts by doing sth. like this, I can understand it, but if you run a tournament with a bad format and expect a player to reveal strategies, endure stress and basically work for your entertainment without the possibility to gain any money from it, just because you are expecting it, you're not running a tournament, but variety-show and they should payN ani for it if they want him to entertain them. How can ppl not get this: Progamers PLAY FOR MONEY! If you are entertained by them, good, but you cannot blame them for not entertaining you and not to work for free AND even reveal strategies/playstyles on live TV. I mean, WTF: In recent history, Millenium has conceded 2 Clanwars in advance without even playing it out, so they could've even won those clanwars, but they didn't even try. What did IPL do? They apologized to the viewers and talked about it without going totally apeshit-crazy and Millenium got called out for it. Very simple and easy. And to the ppl who payd for it: You didn't see it written somewhere that there was a minimum of games you'd be able to see and that they will at least be 5 minutes long and you can get your money back if you are not entertained, so don't act like little children and accept the fact that stuff like this happens. THIS!!!! but its a double edged blade. GOM needs the players, the players need GOM. theres other tournies and theres other players. both have seperate interests and noone has to play by the other's rules. they can work together if they both want too. theres other tournies for naniwa to make money at and theres other players for gom to show. its a business move and time will tell if it was a good one for GOM or not. also time will tell if naniwa feels his character isnt making it in the esports industry. im all for self expression but theres a time when you need to smart up and shut up. however its not that time. hope naniwa tells GOM to kiss his ass and i hope other players bandwagon. It's true what you say, but what is Naniwa to GOM? Nothing. There are heaps of players that could take Naniwas position, both in Korea and around the world; The GSL is also is one of the best SC2 tournements in the world. You think other players will just boycott the GSL because of Naniwa? I doubt it, maybe some foreign players, but it still won't stop GOM from making a killing with their korean players, but lets face it, foreigners will still travel to Korea because that's the Holy Grail in SC2!
Actually, as NaNiwa's the best foreigner, there aren't "heaps of people" that could take his place
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