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While I understand that there's a need to discuss this matter, this thread has way too many trash posts in it. Please think carefully about what you want to say. Ad hominem attacks on Swedish people in general, calling you fellow Starcraft fans idiots etc etc will be dealt with with harsher punishment from here on out. Keep it civil people.
Page 230: Here's some more stuff that'll get you banned!
- Conspiracy theory mongering about MLG and GOM
- Comparing people to Hitler
- Posting useless one liners of arguments that have already been repeated ad nauseum. |
On December 15 2011 02:18 Snijjer wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 02:09 Warent wrote:On December 15 2011 02:02 Holloworb wrote:On December 15 2011 01:53 MorroW wrote:On December 15 2011 01:45 Govou wrote:On December 15 2011 01:42 MorroW wrote:
but dont you guys agree in general making a rule where if a game doesnt matter, player should be allowed to request for walkover? or do you prefer them to be forced to play a game that doesnt matter? because this to me is far more important discussion than whatever else happened here
a rule like this to me, makes perfect sense when the money and sponsors are involved you dont get to chose which games you dont want to play as a player. if it is scheduled, and if you are paid, you should play. and at least make in plausible. do you watch world cup? I guess you dont well as a player, again, i would never want to act a game for my fans. would make me feel like a fraud. plus i would never want to watch or hear that flash (who i am fan of) would be forced to act a game that doesnt matter but if you sign the contract and make it clear with the tournament admins that you HAVE to play ALL games, then this was wrong by naniwa. but we get into these iffy situations at times because of the tournament organisation, and their format doesnt make it clear to the players what they have to do when they sign up for the tournament. if gsl said in beforehand "naniwa, even if you lose 0-3 and some other guy lose 0-3, you still have to play your game against him even if the game doesnt matter at all, try to make the game look good okok?". so agreeing to these things in beforehand is the orgas responsibility, not the players if naniwa knew this would revoke his code S, im 110% sure he wouldnt probe rush. but the orga failed to "warn" him or make it clear to him about the conditions which is the reason all this happened in the first place. that is why i think it was wrong for gsl to point the finger at naniwa and punish him. that is why i think its the tournament orgas to blame, not the player I understand your reasoning MorroW., but i can't say I agree. You can't get explicitly warned about everything you aren't alowed to or shouldn't do in this world. Everyone is making sport analogies in this thread because thats what you should be comparing yourselves to. Lets say that Djurdgården and AIK met for the final match of the season, there's nothing on the line, all the spots in the league has been decided. So one team decides they dont want to play, they keep score on their own goal etc. You really think there wouldn't have been repercussions? Again the fotball... They would both use their B-teams with unexperienced players whom have everything to gain from showing off their skills to coaches, talent scouts etc. thus making the match count - for the players. And thus this analogy fails - again. No your understanding of what an Analogy is fails. Naniwa is not a set of individuals, he is the team. The team decided to rest their top players - that's their strategy. Their strategy is one which lost them their game. Naniwa played the SC2 game. His strategy - probe rush - was a losing strategy.
I'm pretty sure my understanding is up to date.
I really don't see what you are trying to argue here, Naniwa is indeed one player and NOT a team, in this case you can't simply replace him. The reason why I dislike the sports analogy - where teams just rest their top players - are because there are more than 1 player on the field, and the game will always have an impact for some of those players, they have something to play for and the game might therefore become entertaning.
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On December 15 2011 02:33 labbe wrote:
This isn't even about Naniwa anymore, this whole situation just shows how GOMTV has no respect for the foreign community, no respect for thier customers, and no respect for their players. This whole situation is an embarrassment for GOMTV, and everybody involved. They should man up and take some responsibility instead of making excuses.
I have lost all respect for GOMTV as a company. They are not the organization I want to lead the E-sports scene forward.
Are you supporting Sweden to declare war on South Korea or is your national pride not that hurt?
Seriously... The punishment isn't even that hard.
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On December 15 2011 02:26 Toverkol wrote:Hmm, its somewhat hard. I would say a player has a right to forfeit any game, at any time. You are allowed to surrender in game, so why not before the start of a game. This happens often in for instance Magic, when a player has already achieved top 8, or is sure to have no chance of reaching it. On the other hand, in many other professional sports this doesnt happen. In football i've never seen a team outright forfeiting a match, they play their substitutes at most. I think there should simply be clear rules on this, and act by them. If there were no rules there can be no punishment. Offending the audience or opponent is a bit too ambiguous for me. I also fear/think forfeiting should simply be allowed, as it would take care of any motivation problems that influence matches like these. That would mean i'd also advocate for it in other sports, and if it results in these matches influencing group standings for others that is a flaw of the tournament structure or the responsibility of the player with the short straw regarding the schedule. My reaction to seeing it happen btw was a smirk and understanding where he came from. It even made me question why i started watching the game over another while there was nothing at stake  .
you haven't seen a lot of football games, have you? just take dynamo zagreb vs. olympique lyon (last match in group stages of cl) a week or 2 ago. zagreb looked like a team playing to loose. by the way the result was 7:1 in lyons favor and could gain a spot for the next round.
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On December 15 2011 02:27 zeru wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 02:25 LeopoldStotch wrote:On December 15 2011 02:21 eteran wrote:On December 15 2011 02:20 LeopoldStotch wrote:On December 15 2011 02:01 kickinhead wrote:On December 15 2011 01:54 FuzzyJAM wrote:
Well this is. . .unfortunate.
Reasonable decision from GOM. Sucks for Naniwa, but it's his own fault completely. how can anyone truly mean this? He threw a game that didn't matter - How is it reasonable to deny him a code-S spot he clearly earned from MLG (and I remember vividly how commentators, twitter-posts etc. stated that nani has won a Code-S spot so don't try and tell me otherwise, because this was one of the highlights of that MLG for me - Nani getting into Code-S), to totally call him out and to trashtalk about him and even publish statements from other totally close-minded coaches from the KeSpa-era that publicly shit on Nani. Because he threw a game that didn't matter? Was it stupid by Nani? Yes. Was it a slap in the face to his fans? Yes. But the fact is, that it's understandable due to the stupid format, his emotional status and there is no clear ruling that allows GSL to deny his Code-S spot. By the logic ppl like you apply, you should be able to put ppl in Prison that forgot to buy you a birthday-present.... -.-° Cuz thats also disappointing to you and there is no rule against it, so you can apply any punishment you feel is accurate; just totally arbitrary and because you can.... Too bad there is a rule against what Naniwa did. - During a match, a player shall not offend the opponent or audience with abusive behaviours I'm offended by the era of 1-1-1 (and many others aswell). Please remove all players that used that build from CodeS. Basing decisions on such a vague and subjective rule is terrible. It's offensive to you because it had a high rate of success right? The point is that it's a terribly vague rule and you can apply a large number of scenarios to it which they didnt care about. proberushing is the last thing id call abusive and offensive lol
It's not GomTV's fault that Naniwa doesn''t have common sense. The audience found it offensive when a professional player refused to play his match in a standard manner.
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The courtain of sympathizers, defenders, format-bashers should remember something: as a professional player of anything, you are not paid to win, you are paid to provide a show; winning is almost entirely collateral.
If a professional player does not like the format of the tournament he is invited to, he can play it and then politely point out that the format is flawed: interviews, twitter, forum posts are all better tools than this kind of diva acts.
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On December 15 2011 02:32 kochanfe wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 02:30 BoReDWiTHLiFe wrote:
Been a forum lurker for some time now, and this is the first thread I've seen with this much hate, anger, racial bias and lack of reading comprehension since the whole Stephano/Millenium/Complexity mess a while back. Basically this is what I think it boils down to.
Did Naniwa have the right to 6 probe rush in a [to him] meaningless game? Certainly, just like you have every right to say 'fuck you' and give the middle finger to your boss after he assigns you 100 pages of busywork. Was it professional? Nope. Was it smart? Probably not. But I can sympathize considering he had just lost 3 very close games which he could have won. Still, considering the responses he gave during the TL interview, its pretty much a given that he threw that last match against Nestea.
On the flipside, did Gom have the right to punish Naniwa by revoking potential Code S seed? Absolutely, just like your boss has every right to fire you after you curse him out and hand him back 100 sheets of blank paper. Was the punishment a bit harsh? Probably, but Gom is sending a very clear message about what they will and will not tolerate in their tournament. It was pretty obvious that after pulling that shit in Korea, Naniwa was going to be punished in one way or another and this is just the form it took.
tl;dr, This is a pretty big overreaction from both sides of the issue and will probably blow over and be forgotten in a few months just like Stephano's contract issues. maybe, but the reprecussions for NaNiwa are HUGE! Not being able to participate in code S because of this is ridiculous
naniwa can still participate in code s, its just that he has to make it through the code a qualifiers first with his own skills instead of getting a free ride from mlg. if he really is a top tier protoss player as all his fans hype he is, then he should be in code s in 2 seasons easily
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On December 15 2011 02:24 Snijjer wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 02:21 Govou wrote:On December 15 2011 02:18 Snijjer wrote:On December 15 2011 02:09 Warent wrote:On December 15 2011 02:02 Holloworb wrote:On December 15 2011 01:53 MorroW wrote:On December 15 2011 01:45 Govou wrote:On December 15 2011 01:42 MorroW wrote:
but dont you guys agree in general making a rule where if a game doesnt matter, player should be allowed to request for walkover? or do you prefer them to be forced to play a game that doesnt matter? because this to me is far more important discussion than whatever else happened here
a rule like this to me, makes perfect sense when the money and sponsors are involved you dont get to chose which games you dont want to play as a player. if it is scheduled, and if you are paid, you should play. and at least make in plausible. do you watch world cup? I guess you dont well as a player, again, i would never want to act a game for my fans. would make me feel like a fraud. plus i would never want to watch or hear that flash (who i am fan of) would be forced to act a game that doesnt matter but if you sign the contract and make it clear with the tournament admins that you HAVE to play ALL games, then this was wrong by naniwa. but we get into these iffy situations at times because of the tournament organisation, and their format doesnt make it clear to the players what they have to do when they sign up for the tournament. if gsl said in beforehand "naniwa, even if you lose 0-3 and some other guy lose 0-3, you still have to play your game against him even if the game doesnt matter at all, try to make the game look good okok?". so agreeing to these things in beforehand is the orgas responsibility, not the players if naniwa knew this would revoke his code S, im 110% sure he wouldnt probe rush. but the orga failed to "warn" him or make it clear to him about the conditions which is the reason all this happened in the first place. that is why i think it was wrong for gsl to point the finger at naniwa and punish him. that is why i think its the tournament orgas to blame, not the player I understand your reasoning MorroW., but i can't say I agree. You can't get explicitly warned about everything you aren't alowed to or shouldn't do in this world. Everyone is making sport analogies in this thread because thats what you should be comparing yourselves to. Lets say that Djurdgården and AIK met for the final match of the season, there's nothing on the line, all the spots in the league has been decided. So one team decides they dont want to play, they keep score on their own goal etc. You really think there wouldn't have been repercussions? Again the fotball... They would both use their B-teams with unexperienced players whom have everything to gain from showing off their skills to coaches, talent scouts etc. thus making the match count - for the players. And thus this analogy fails - again. No your understanding of what an Analogy is fails. Naniwa is not a set of individuals, he is the team. The team decided to rest their top players - that's their strategy. Their strategy is one which lost them their game. Naniwa played the SC2 game. His strategy - probe rush - was a losing strategy. Naniwa didnt field B team. Fielding B team would be similar to choosing infeior build or cannon rushing. What naniwa did was just standing around fiddling his thumb on the field. there is a degree of effort to be excused. If Naniwa did at least a cannon rushing or 4 gate, he wouldn't get kicked out of the code S. Instead, he a moved his probe. You're right he probably fielded team C, but it doesn't matter - because the result is the same thing as fielding team B.
You people should not use team sports analogies, use individual sporting analogies.
Tennis player hitting every ball out... A boxer taking a dive etc
Naniwa still played, but was far too obvious he threw the game. He could argue that it is a legitimate strategy. Anyone with any knowledge knows he didn't want to play. So he played the quickest way to end the game. In a timed sport such as football, there is no real way to end the game quickly, apart from sitting around waiting for the clock to run down.
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I can't wait to try Naniwa's new BO on ladder!
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Eh, I can't help but wonder if it's because of the probe rush, or if the probe rush was simply the final straw.
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Hong Kong9151 Posts
What a joke. GOM has already been marginalized for me in terms of wanting to watch because of the godawful time you have to wake up in order to see it live. Seeing them collapse and assuage those who are bandwagoning in the moment makes my viewership calculus extremely easy for the next few months.
It's their tournament, their 'ruleset.' But if they want to run it into the ground, I am not obligated to support it.
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On December 15 2011 02:25 MorroW wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 02:23 Govou wrote:On December 15 2011 02:21 MorroW wrote:On December 15 2011 02:18 Femari wrote:On December 15 2011 02:13 Kryptic.610 wrote:On December 15 2011 02:07 Tachion wrote:On December 15 2011 01:42 MorroW wrote:
but dont you guys agree in general making a rule where if a game doesnt matter, player should be allowed to request for walkover? or do you prefer them to be forced to play a game that doesnt matter? because this to me is far more important discussion than whatever else happened here
a rule like this to me, makes perfect sense It's one game. Just play it for the fans, it's really not that big a deal. Small price to pay for being able to participate in the biggest tournament in the world. Like Morrow put it earlier, Naniwa shouldn't be forced to be an actor. Naniwa is the probably the most genuine progamer out there, I hate that Gom is trying to destroying the integrity of the game. This whole situation made possible and brought to you by Gom's horrible format! Basically, Gom shouldn't shit where they eat. Naniwa shouldn't be forced to be an actor, but if he should do his job. He is a pro gamer. He legally agreed to the format and to said he'd play all the games. Naniwa acted highly unprofessionally and childish. So what you went 0-3, you agreed to the format and said you'd play all your games. Instead you threw a fit and decided fuck GOM I'm going to throw this game and he got punished for it. Naniwa is the one destroying the integrity of the game. GOM is being a professional organization and not rolling over cause some childish player is upset of a format that HE AGREED TO. sorry but were you in the same room where gomtv talked to naniwa about the terms and wether or wether not he had to play all his games regardless of the situataion? if what your saying is true, if they player agrees before the tournament to play all the games regardless of the situation, then yes he did wrong. but if thats not the case your just lying and theres no reason to discuss with u are you saying Naniwa didnt read or know about the format? before agreeing to play in front of TV audience in a scheduled match? Morrow, I wish you all the best in korea and show foreigner pride but I just dont support such perspective. well clearly naniwa did not know what he agreed to because no remotely smart person would probe rush knowing he would lose code S to it ive never played a tournament where someone said i HAD to play. giving walkovers is standard (if the game doesnt matter) and you get away with it in all tournaments ive played this far. so wouldnt be surprised if naniwa was under the same impressions
it's common sense that if ur in the booth on a televised match that ur expected to well... play it out? yes walkovers are given in tournaments but you dont get into the booth on tv then expect one. yes there are no tournaments where u HAVE to play, obviously u can just forfeit but ull be punished. i see ur point but ur examples arent that good. nanima should be punished and u know it, ur just letting nationalism blind ur judgement
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On December 15 2011 02:31 SC2NeCro wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 02:29 TheRPGAddict wrote:
Good move in the long run. Helps keep the integrity of the GSL leagues and you can bet your butt Naniwa will think twice before doing something shortsighted like this again. Also, he didn't technically earn the spot so it isn't like Gom is taking something away from him, it was a privilege and a bonus and he blew it. This pretty much did the opposite for GOM. They set a standard of competition ethics for their league, sorry if you don't think so.
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On December 15 2011 02:28 Vardant wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 02:23 Govou wrote:On December 15 2011 02:21 MorroW wrote:On December 15 2011 02:18 Femari wrote:On December 15 2011 02:13 Kryptic.610 wrote:On December 15 2011 02:07 Tachion wrote:On December 15 2011 01:42 MorroW wrote:
but dont you guys agree in general making a rule where if a game doesnt matter, player should be allowed to request for walkover? or do you prefer them to be forced to play a game that doesnt matter? because this to me is far more important discussion than whatever else happened here
a rule like this to me, makes perfect sense It's one game. Just play it for the fans, it's really not that big a deal. Small price to pay for being able to participate in the biggest tournament in the world. Like Morrow put it earlier, Naniwa shouldn't be forced to be an actor. Naniwa is the probably the most genuine progamer out there, I hate that Gom is trying to destroying the integrity of the game. This whole situation made possible and brought to you by Gom's horrible format! Basically, Gom shouldn't shit where they eat. Naniwa shouldn't be forced to be an actor, but if he should do his job. He is a pro gamer. He legally agreed to the format and to said he'd play all the games. Naniwa acted highly unprofessionally and childish. So what you went 0-3, you agreed to the format and said you'd play all your games. Instead you threw a fit and decided fuck GOM I'm going to throw this game and he got punished for it. Naniwa is the one destroying the integrity of the game. GOM is being a professional organization and not rolling over cause some childish player is upset of a format that HE AGREED TO. sorry but were you in the same room where gomtv talked to naniwa about the terms and wether or wether not he had to play all his games regardless of the situataion? if what your saying is true, if they player agrees before the tournament to play all the games regardless of the situation, then yes he did wrong. but if thats not the case your just lying and theres no reason to discuss with u are you saying Naniwa didnt read or know about the format? before agreeing to play in front of TV audience in a scheduled match? Morrow, I wish you all the best in korea and show foreigner pride but I just dont support such perspective. He's saying, that people calling Naniwa childish actually have no tangible proof, that he agreed to play all the games, regardless if they had any impact on the outcome of the tournament. So they shouldn't be calling him out on this. Given their history, where these matches weren't actually played, it would be very surprising, if they changed their mind just for this tournament.
If you agreed to play in the tournament, it's an expectation that you will play all the games. I think that's pretty simple. Whether or not these matches were played historically doesn't change the fact that you agreed to play in the tournament. If the organizers decide this time that these matches need to be played, then, since you agreed to play in the tournament you must play the game. One does not agree to play "some of the games", when one participates in a tournament. The reasonable expectation is to play all games.
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On December 15 2011 02:31 kochanfe wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 02:28 smakme7757 wrote:On December 15 2011 02:24 Warillions wrote:On December 15 2011 01:51 kickinhead wrote:On December 15 2011 01:37 zala2023 wrote:On December 15 2011 01:34 dawnstone wrote:On December 15 2011 01:29 BlitzerSC wrote:On December 15 2011 01:22 MorroW wrote:On December 15 2011 01:14 Velr wrote:On December 15 2011 01:11 HappyChris wrote:
[quote]
Hahaha Morrow thats just so mean to sjow. lol Ahm.. If Naniwa would just have done nothing at all, this would also not be ban worthy? Because.. He is in the game, he just did do nothing... Because well... He was 100% throwing that game on behalf, i don't care how it looked.. No one should care how it looked. He did it, he got what you should get for stuff like this. we are progamers, not actors. if you want to watch acting go pay for a movie instead of a sc2 tournament they tournament admins again, must allow players to give walkover in a match that doesnt matter. its the format and the rules that allow stuff like this to happen. situations where players dont want to win, always gets messy. so im not saying what naniwa did was ethical or not, that doesnt matter to me. what matters to me is that gsl fucks up, points the finger at naniwa but not only that, punishes him for not acting a game if i was in naniwas position id request for a walkover, if not id drink 10 cups of coffee and get some food poisioning or some shit. because a player never wants to act serious in a game. because if he loses people think he played bad and serious, and if he wins, people know his build order. its a lose lose situation for a player to get into a situation where he has to play a televised game that doesnt matter You should probably watch some real sports, especially soccer. Do you see players of a team that got eliminated in the champions league that have to play the last match just sits on the field ?? No, they try to play as better as they can even if they are playing against Barcelona/Milan/Inter ecc. No they play with their B-team instead....... Pointless point you are trying to make. Since the players have something to gain from these games they can improve their chances for a spot in the staring line up for the next game, and some of them might even have salaries depending on how many games they play. So dont make retarded arguments please since Naniwa had nothing to gain from that game. sure naniwa had nothing to gain, but what about the people who paid to see the games? gomtv is not going to let naniwa shit on the people who paid to be entertained by their tickets lol does naniwa get paid for exciting moves and nice plays? Does he get paid for being your dancing monkey? No, he gets paid if he wins and for representing his team/sponsors. If Nani looses sponsorship-contracts by doing sth. like this, I can understand it, but if you run a tournament with a bad format and expect a player to reveal strategies, endure stress and basically work for your entertainment without the possibility to gain any money from it, just because you are expecting it, you're not running a tournament, but variety-show and they should payN ani for it if they want him to entertain them. How can ppl not get this: Progamers PLAY FOR MONEY! If you are entertained by them, good, but you cannot blame them for not entertaining you and not to work for free AND even reveal strategies/playstyles on live TV. I mean, WTF: In recent history, Millenium has conceded 2 Clanwars in advance without even playing it out, so they could've even won those clanwars, but they didn't even try. What did IPL do? They apologized to the viewers and talked about it without going totally apeshit-crazy and Millenium got called out for it. Very simple and easy. And to the ppl who payd for it: You didn't see it written somewhere that there was a minimum of games you'd be able to see and that they will at least be 5 minutes long and you can get your money back if you are not entertained, so don't act like little children and accept the fact that stuff like this happens. THIS!!!! but its a double edged blade. GOM needs the players, the players need GOM. theres other tournies and theres other players. both have seperate interests and noone has to play by the other's rules. they can work together if they both want too. theres other tournies for naniwa to make money at and theres other players for gom to show. its a business move and time will tell if it was a good one for GOM or not. also time will tell if naniwa feels his character isnt making it in the esports industry. im all for self expression but theres a time when you need to smart up and shut up. however its not that time. hope naniwa tells GOM to kiss his ass and i hope other players bandwagon. It's true what you say, but what is Naniwa to GOM? Nothing. There are heaps of players that could take Naniwas position, both in Korea and around the world; The GSL is also is one of the best SC2 tournements in the world. You think other players will just boycott the GSL because of Naniwa? I doubt it, maybe some foreign players, but it still won't stop GOM from making a killing with their korean players, but lets face it, foreigners will still travel to Korea because that's the Holy Grail in SC2! Actually, as NaNiwa's the best foreigner, there aren't "heaps of people" that could take his place
He's certainly not the best foreigner.
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On December 15 2011 02:31 kochanfe wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 02:28 smakme7757 wrote:On December 15 2011 02:24 Warillions wrote:On December 15 2011 01:51 kickinhead wrote:On December 15 2011 01:37 zala2023 wrote:On December 15 2011 01:34 dawnstone wrote:On December 15 2011 01:29 BlitzerSC wrote:On December 15 2011 01:22 MorroW wrote:On December 15 2011 01:14 Velr wrote:On December 15 2011 01:11 HappyChris wrote:
[quote]
Hahaha Morrow thats just so mean to sjow. lol Ahm.. If Naniwa would just have done nothing at all, this would also not be ban worthy? Because.. He is in the game, he just did do nothing... Because well... He was 100% throwing that game on behalf, i don't care how it looked.. No one should care how it looked. He did it, he got what you should get for stuff like this. we are progamers, not actors. if you want to watch acting go pay for a movie instead of a sc2 tournament they tournament admins again, must allow players to give walkover in a match that doesnt matter. its the format and the rules that allow stuff like this to happen. situations where players dont want to win, always gets messy. so im not saying what naniwa did was ethical or not, that doesnt matter to me. what matters to me is that gsl fucks up, points the finger at naniwa but not only that, punishes him for not acting a game if i was in naniwas position id request for a walkover, if not id drink 10 cups of coffee and get some food poisioning or some shit. because a player never wants to act serious in a game. because if he loses people think he played bad and serious, and if he wins, people know his build order. its a lose lose situation for a player to get into a situation where he has to play a televised game that doesnt matter You should probably watch some real sports, especially soccer. Do you see players of a team that got eliminated in the champions league that have to play the last match just sits on the field ?? No, they try to play as better as they can even if they are playing against Barcelona/Milan/Inter ecc. No they play with their B-team instead....... Pointless point you are trying to make. Since the players have something to gain from these games they can improve their chances for a spot in the staring line up for the next game, and some of them might even have salaries depending on how many games they play. So dont make retarded arguments please since Naniwa had nothing to gain from that game. sure naniwa had nothing to gain, but what about the people who paid to see the games? gomtv is not going to let naniwa shit on the people who paid to be entertained by their tickets lol does naniwa get paid for exciting moves and nice plays? Does he get paid for being your dancing monkey? No, he gets paid if he wins and for representing his team/sponsors. If Nani looses sponsorship-contracts by doing sth. like this, I can understand it, but if you run a tournament with a bad format and expect a player to reveal strategies, endure stress and basically work for your entertainment without the possibility to gain any money from it, just because you are expecting it, you're not running a tournament, but variety-show and they should payN ani for it if they want him to entertain them. How can ppl not get this: Progamers PLAY FOR MONEY! If you are entertained by them, good, but you cannot blame them for not entertaining you and not to work for free AND even reveal strategies/playstyles on live TV. I mean, WTF: In recent history, Millenium has conceded 2 Clanwars in advance without even playing it out, so they could've even won those clanwars, but they didn't even try. What did IPL do? They apologized to the viewers and talked about it without going totally apeshit-crazy and Millenium got called out for it. Very simple and easy. And to the ppl who payd for it: You didn't see it written somewhere that there was a minimum of games you'd be able to see and that they will at least be 5 minutes long and you can get your money back if you are not entertained, so don't act like little children and accept the fact that stuff like this happens. THIS!!!! but its a double edged blade. GOM needs the players, the players need GOM. theres other tournies and theres other players. both have seperate interests and noone has to play by the other's rules. they can work together if they both want too. theres other tournies for naniwa to make money at and theres other players for gom to show. its a business move and time will tell if it was a good one for GOM or not. also time will tell if naniwa feels his character isnt making it in the esports industry. im all for self expression but theres a time when you need to smart up and shut up. however its not that time. hope naniwa tells GOM to kiss his ass and i hope other players bandwagon. It's true what you say, but what is Naniwa to GOM? Nothing. There are heaps of players that could take Naniwas position, both in Korea and around the world; The GSL is also is one of the best SC2 tournements in the world. You think other players will just boycott the GSL because of Naniwa? I doubt it, maybe some foreign players, but it still won't stop GOM from making a killing with their korean players, but lets face it, foreigners will still travel to Korea because that's the Holy Grail in SC2! Actually, as NaNiwa's the best foreigner, there aren't "heaps of people" that could take his place
Naniwa the best foreigner? Sorry to break it to you, but there is no best foreigner. Not one foreigner has put up consistent results to be the "best."
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On December 15 2011 02:28 DFDream wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 02:23 LeopoldStotch wrote:On December 15 2011 02:19 wei2coolman wrote:
It's not like he broken any rules >.>
GSL, what a joke. I'll definitely NOT buy a pass this season. Are you people that blind? Read the OP. - During a match, a player shall not offend the opponent or audience with abusive behavioursAt least read the other side of the story before you pass judgement. I think the reason that no one is really taking that rule serious is that its so incredibly arbitrary. What offends me may not offend you and vice versa. I may be offended by you 4 gate-ting me who knows? You can't just disqualify a player for "offending someone" otherwise I could just go into a GSL match and go 100-0 because my opponents are "offending me" with their play and therefore should be disqualified. Also I highly doubt that Nestea was actually offended that he got a free win in a match that didn't matter, GOM is just taking this way out of proportion.
I haven't even addressed the rule yet. Who writes these things for GOM anyway? I agree, it is an absurd rule and what I find offensive and abusive will be different from the next.
Culture clash anyone?
Gom wants everyone to conform to 'Korean' principles. As its their House. Their tournament.
International Business 101. Everyone is going to have to adapt there, but even then. Like I said, individuals can interpret this rule differently. It's not concrete! What is to become of MC if he does a victory ceremony that the other player finds offensive? Forfeit his game?
Give me a fucking break.
Whomever wrote that rule. Should revise it. You need to substantiate it.
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On December 15 2011 02:25 ig0tfish wrote:
Hopefully this will save the integrity of e-sports. Naniwa spat in the faces of all the viewers.
only in the face of those who prefer fake showmatches over real competition. Then again, wrestling should be their sport of choice.
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On December 15 2011 02:34 zala2023 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 02:32 kochanfe wrote:On December 15 2011 02:30 BoReDWiTHLiFe wrote:
Been a forum lurker for some time now, and this is the first thread I've seen with this much hate, anger, racial bias and lack of reading comprehension since the whole Stephano/Millenium/Complexity mess a while back. Basically this is what I think it boils down to.
Did Naniwa have the right to 6 probe rush in a [to him] meaningless game? Certainly, just like you have every right to say 'fuck you' and give the middle finger to your boss after he assigns you 100 pages of busywork. Was it professional? Nope. Was it smart? Probably not. But I can sympathize considering he had just lost 3 very close games which he could have won. Still, considering the responses he gave during the TL interview, its pretty much a given that he threw that last match against Nestea.
On the flipside, did Gom have the right to punish Naniwa by revoking potential Code S seed? Absolutely, just like your boss has every right to fire you after you curse him out and hand him back 100 sheets of blank paper. Was the punishment a bit harsh? Probably, but Gom is sending a very clear message about what they will and will not tolerate in their tournament. It was pretty obvious that after pulling that shit in Korea, Naniwa was going to be punished in one way or another and this is just the form it took.
tl;dr, This is a pretty big overreaction from both sides of the issue and will probably blow over and be forgotten in a few months just like Stephano's contract issues. maybe, but the reprecussions for NaNiwa are HUGE! Not being able to participate in code S because of this is ridiculous naniwa can still participate in code s, its just that he has to make it through the code a qualifiers first with his own skills instead of getting a free ride from mlg. if he really is a top tier protoss player as all his fans hype he is, then he should be in code s in 2 seasons easily
Wtf you think doing well at MLG doesn't require one to use their "own skills?"
What about DRG and MC?
That's how they got their spots.
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On December 15 2011 02:34 zala2023 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 02:32 kochanfe wrote:On December 15 2011 02:30 BoReDWiTHLiFe wrote:
Been a forum lurker for some time now, and this is the first thread I've seen with this much hate, anger, racial bias and lack of reading comprehension since the whole Stephano/Millenium/Complexity mess a while back. Basically this is what I think it boils down to.
Did Naniwa have the right to 6 probe rush in a [to him] meaningless game? Certainly, just like you have every right to say 'fuck you' and give the middle finger to your boss after he assigns you 100 pages of busywork. Was it professional? Nope. Was it smart? Probably not. But I can sympathize considering he had just lost 3 very close games which he could have won. Still, considering the responses he gave during the TL interview, its pretty much a given that he threw that last match against Nestea.
On the flipside, did Gom have the right to punish Naniwa by revoking potential Code S seed? Absolutely, just like your boss has every right to fire you after you curse him out and hand him back 100 sheets of blank paper. Was the punishment a bit harsh? Probably, but Gom is sending a very clear message about what they will and will not tolerate in their tournament. It was pretty obvious that after pulling that shit in Korea, Naniwa was going to be punished in one way or another and this is just the form it took.
tl;dr, This is a pretty big overreaction from both sides of the issue and will probably blow over and be forgotten in a few months just like Stephano's contract issues. maybe, but the reprecussions for NaNiwa are HUGE! Not being able to participate in code S because of this is ridiculous naniwa can still participate in code s, its just that he has to make it through the code a qualifiers first with his own skills instead of getting a free ride from mlg. if he really is a top tier protoss player as all his fans hype he is, then he should be in code s in 2 seasons easily
Gettign a free ride from MLG?. Well if thats the case then MMA,DRG and MC also need to go back to Code B. MLG exchange program means nothing.
But you proberly support Idra and Sen getting a free ride right
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EPT
