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While I understand that there's a need to discuss this matter, this thread has way too many trash posts in it. Please think carefully about what you want to say. Ad hominem attacks on Swedish people in general, calling you fellow Starcraft fans idiots etc etc will be dealt with with harsher punishment from here on out. Keep it civil people.
Page 230: Here's some more stuff that'll get you banned!
- Conspiracy theory mongering about MLG and GOM
- Comparing people to Hitler
- Posting useless one liners of arguments that have already been repeated ad nauseum. |
On December 15 2011 02:17 Clefairy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 02:14 Asymmetric wrote:Just so we can clear things up what is the minium work required to put into a exhibition match before it stops being "legitimate" and becomes a "sham" Is there an APM limit you've got to reach or a certain miminium strategy you've got to pursue. "You must at very least 4-gate or cannon rush as protoss and reach an average APM of 50" I just want some clear guides from GOM for the players  At the very least don't take your hand off your keyboard and rest your head in your keyboard hand. There's no need for clear guides, just common sense.
No.
There really is a need for clear guide lines if your going to start banning players on subjective whims.
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On December 15 2011 02:13 Kryptic.610 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 02:07 Tachion wrote:On December 15 2011 01:42 MorroW wrote:
but dont you guys agree in general making a rule where if a game doesnt matter, player should be allowed to request for walkover? or do you prefer them to be forced to play a game that doesnt matter? because this to me is far more important discussion than whatever else happened here
a rule like this to me, makes perfect sense It's one game. Just play it for the fans, it's really not that big a deal. Small price to pay for being able to participate in the biggest tournament in the world. Like Morrow put it earlier, Naniwa shouldn't be forced to be an actor. Naniwa is the probably the most genuine progamer out there, I hate that Gom is trying to destroying the integrity of the game. This whole situation made possible and brought to you by Gom's horrible format! Basically, Gom shouldn't shit where they eat.
Naniwa shouldn't be forced to be an actor, but if he should do his job.
He is a pro gamer. He legally agreed to the format and to said he'd play all the games. Naniwa acted highly unprofessionally and childish. So what you went 0-3, you agreed to the format and said you'd play all your games. Instead you threw a fit and decided fuck GOM I'm going to throw this game and he got punished for it.
Naniwa is the one destroying the integrity of the game. GOM is being a professional organization and not rolling over cause some childish player is upset of a format that HE AGREED TO.
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On December 15 2011 02:15 mememolly wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 02:13 Hnnngg wrote:On December 15 2011 02:11 Psychobabas wrote:
Naniwa anti-establishment. I love this guy. Yeah, great for growing eSports. Sorry, that was sarcasm. Naniwa needs to step it up or he doesn't deserve to work under the banner of eSports. Yeah I said work, like actually doing his job. Probe rushing is not his job, entertaining/competing (the same fucking thing) is his job. all sports need drama and this will grow esports for a little bit, but it has left a void where players are not going to know how they should act and might turn everyone into a BW korean robot and that doesn't fly in the west, in the west drama and character have a big impact on viewers and if they try and make everyone into a robot then it will hurt esports's growth
This isn't drama though. Probe rushing is not "drama". It's a copout.
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On December 15 2011 02:17 Skyreaper wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 02:11 haffy wrote:On December 15 2011 02:10 zala2023 wrote:On December 15 2011 02:08 haffy wrote:On December 15 2011 02:00 krisss wrote:
Finally NaNi gets what he deserves. Hopefully he learns a lesson, and grows up sometime. Watching NaNiwa always felt like watching a 12-year old child play. Finally someone does sth against such unprofessional behavior. I don't see how he needs to grow up. He acts the way he wants, which isn't inappropriate. People get way to over sensitive over dumb stuff. I'd much prefer to play sports against someone who wants to play seriously than someone who is going to play half arsed. So for him to just give up on something he didn't want to do just saved me seeing a shity game. I was disappointed though, because I wanted to see Naniwa vs Nestea. But if both players have absolutely nothing to play for, is it really unexpected when one doesn't want to play? what do you mean by "nothing to play for"? last time i checked most progamers cared about their fans and want to show their best efforts to their fans and people who supported them? instead naniwa derped around, and now his image took a nosedive He gains absolutely nothing from playing. You can force your ideals and opinions on him all you like. But I bet from his point of view he had nothing to play for. So you are saying NaNiwa really is an amateurish money hunter.
That may not be his intention but his act certainly points toward that direction to people who don't read his interviews (Mr. Chae).
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Wow, this drama is amazing. Definetely worth reading more. You guys also should apply for law school i think. The number of theories in this exact thread are just hard to come by in all of interwebs.
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On December 15 2011 02:14 BLinD-RawR wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 02:13 Wallstreet11 wrote:On December 15 2011 02:10 TiTanIum_ wrote:
When IdrA left the GSL mid season, no one gave two thoughts about it. There wasn´t a 230+ page thread on Team Liquid and GOM didn´t ban IdrA from GSL. Now Nani drops a meaningless game and there is this shit storm. I really can´t understand. ----------------------------------------- /End thread _______________________________ I thought he quit right before the start of the season?
That was Rain (and amazingly there was a shit storm due to that).
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Sorry but this doesn't make sense in relation to Idra's leaving GSL.
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On December 15 2011 02:09 Warent wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 02:02 Holloworb wrote:On December 15 2011 01:53 MorroW wrote:On December 15 2011 01:45 Govou wrote:On December 15 2011 01:42 MorroW wrote:
but dont you guys agree in general making a rule where if a game doesnt matter, player should be allowed to request for walkover? or do you prefer them to be forced to play a game that doesnt matter? because this to me is far more important discussion than whatever else happened here
a rule like this to me, makes perfect sense when the money and sponsors are involved you dont get to chose which games you dont want to play as a player. if it is scheduled, and if you are paid, you should play. and at least make in plausible. do you watch world cup? I guess you dont well as a player, again, i would never want to act a game for my fans. would make me feel like a fraud. plus i would never want to watch or hear that flash (who i am fan of) would be forced to act a game that doesnt matter but if you sign the contract and make it clear with the tournament admins that you HAVE to play ALL games, then this was wrong by naniwa. but we get into these iffy situations at times because of the tournament organisation, and their format doesnt make it clear to the players what they have to do when they sign up for the tournament. if gsl said in beforehand "naniwa, even if you lose 0-3 and some other guy lose 0-3, you still have to play your game against him even if the game doesnt matter at all, try to make the game look good okok?". so agreeing to these things in beforehand is the orgas responsibility, not the players if naniwa knew this would revoke his code S, im 110% sure he wouldnt probe rush. but the orga failed to "warn" him or make it clear to him about the conditions which is the reason all this happened in the first place. that is why i think it was wrong for gsl to point the finger at naniwa and punish him. that is why i think its the tournament orgas to blame, not the player I understand your reasoning MorroW., but i can't say I agree. You can't get explicitly warned about everything you aren't alowed to or shouldn't do in this world. Everyone is making sport analogies in this thread because thats what you should be comparing yourselves to. Lets say that Djurdgården and AIK met for the final match of the season, there's nothing on the line, all the spots in the league has been decided. So one team decides they dont want to play, they keep score on their own goal etc. You really think there wouldn't have been repercussions? Again the fotball... They would both use their B-teams with unexperienced players whom have everything to gain from showing off their skills to coaches, talent scouts etc. thus making the match count - for the players. And thus this analogy fails - again.
No your understanding of what an Analogy is fails.
Naniwa is not a set of individuals, he is the team. The team decided to rest their top players - that's their strategy. Their strategy is one which lost them their game. Naniwa played the SC2 game. His strategy - probe rush - was a losing strategy.
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On December 15 2011 02:16 Gin-san wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 02:15 baoluvboa wrote:On December 15 2011 02:13 Wallstreet11 wrote:On December 15 2011 02:10 TiTanIum_ wrote:
When IdrA left the GSL mid season, no one gave two thoughts about it. There wasn´t a 230+ page thread on Team Liquid and GOM didn´t ban IdrA from GSL. Now Nani drops a meaningless game and there is this shit storm. I really can´t understand. ----------------------------------------- /End thread _______________________________ Idra gave them ample time before he left and it was on good term. It is two completely different situations IdrA gave Bullshit. He left after the Group nominations of GSL March which forced a walkover for 2 out of the 3 players in the group yet. In other words he ruined the group .Yet he wasn't punished in any way but rather given a Code S spot.
...GOMtv asked IdrA to go ahead and pick his group before leaving. That's why he was able to leave on good terms.
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On December 15 2011 02:13 Govou wrote:
me me me me me me me
how about others? sponsors? fans? your pride? and professionalism?
nah fuck it, I dont want to play. It's not really a sports anyway.
right?
You guys realize that all sports are self-serving right? Plus, we're talking about individual sport where players will always put themselves first and foremost. ._.
Come on now.
Everything else is cause and effect.
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Since when is it ok to lose on purpose?
Right decison.
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It's not like he broken any rules >.>
GSL, what a joke. I'll definitely NOT buy a pass this season.
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On December 15 2011 02:18 Hnnngg wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 02:15 mememolly wrote:On December 15 2011 02:13 Hnnngg wrote:On December 15 2011 02:11 Psychobabas wrote:
Naniwa anti-establishment. I love this guy. Yeah, great for growing eSports. Sorry, that was sarcasm. Naniwa needs to step it up or he doesn't deserve to work under the banner of eSports. Yeah I said work, like actually doing his job. Probe rushing is not his job, entertaining/competing (the same fucking thing) is his job. all sports need drama and this will grow esports for a little bit, but it has left a void where players are not going to know how they should act and might turn everyone into a BW korean robot and that doesn't fly in the west, in the west drama and character have a big impact on viewers and if they try and make everyone into a robot then it will hurt esports's growth This isn't drama though. Probe rushing is not "drama". It's a copout.
what do you call this thread if not drama?
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On December 15 2011 02:17 Skyreaper wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 02:11 haffy wrote:On December 15 2011 02:10 zala2023 wrote:On December 15 2011 02:08 haffy wrote:On December 15 2011 02:00 krisss wrote:
Finally NaNi gets what he deserves. Hopefully he learns a lesson, and grows up sometime. Watching NaNiwa always felt like watching a 12-year old child play. Finally someone does sth against such unprofessional behavior. I don't see how he needs to grow up. He acts the way he wants, which isn't inappropriate. People get way to over sensitive over dumb stuff. I'd much prefer to play sports against someone who wants to play seriously than someone who is going to play half arsed. So for him to just give up on something he didn't want to do just saved me seeing a shity game. I was disappointed though, because I wanted to see Naniwa vs Nestea. But if both players have absolutely nothing to play for, is it really unexpected when one doesn't want to play? what do you mean by "nothing to play for"? last time i checked most progamers cared about their fans and want to show their best efforts to their fans and people who supported them? instead naniwa derped around, and now his image took a nosedive He gains absolutely nothing from playing. You can force your ideals and opinions on him all you like. But I bet from his point of view he had nothing to play for. So you are saying NaNiwa really is an amateurish money hunter.
Sure, because money hunter would obviously try his hardest to get to the league with the best opponents in the world and not so much money in prizes. Brilliant plan.
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On December 15 2011 02:18 Asymmetric wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 02:17 Clefairy wrote:On December 15 2011 02:14 Asymmetric wrote:Just so we can clear things up what is the minium work required to put into a exhibition match before it stops being "legitimate" and becomes a "sham" Is there an APM limit you've got to reach or a certain miminium strategy you've got to pursue. "You must at very least 4-gate or cannon rush as protoss and reach an average APM of 50" I just want some clear guides from GOM for the players At the very least don't take your hand off your keyboard and rest your head in your keyboard hand. There's no need for clear guides, just common sense. No. There really is a need for clear guide lines if your going to start banning players on subjective whims.
These "subjective whims" are pretty much common sense, if you have any sense of respect or self-control you would have no problem.
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On December 15 2011 02:05 ToasteR_ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 02:03 Fischbacher wrote:
You know, plenty of sports force athletes to play meaningless games. Dead rubbers in Tennis team tournaments, bottom-fender NFL games, consolation rounds in the Olympics (yes, a lot of sports in the Olympics make people play out non-medal positions)... when you're payed to play a game you play it, even if the outcome doesn't matter to you. That's what being a professional means. The only real excuse for dropping out / not trying in those kind of situations are injury.
And not being able to play a good game in those situations is bs. Dead games in the FIFA world cup tend to be quite decent, the third place games in those world cups tend to be even better than the final (see: Uruguay vs Germany) and a lot of Olympic B-finals tend to be quite entertaining (the B-final of the men's 5000m relay, which only had two teams due to a disqualification, was actually a sick two way race). Point being that athletes play excellent meaningless games all the time. NaNiwa has no excuse. Theres still a medal up for grab in the 3rd place game, therefore not meaningless
For the FIFA third place match sure, but there are group stage matches that are completely meaningless (Poland - Costa Rica in 2006, for example. There wasn't any own goal in that match). And there are a lot of games / races in many Olympic sports that are played despite absolutely zero medal implication. Water Polo and Field Hockey actually have a game for eleventh place. If that isn't meaningless, I don't know what is. And yet teams actually try to win.
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Wow, not watching GSL anymore. This is ridiculous
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On December 15 2011 02:07 Wallstreet11 wrote:
When Bomber and MC BM they are "unique" and "funny". When a foreigner like Naniwa does the thumbs down he gets booed at MLG and then he gets a severe punishment for "dissing" as some have called it a korean player?
Haha such a huuuuge amount of hypocrisy. "You do not probe rush a korean player because it was considered disrespectful. THEY WHAT is MC´s thumbs down, Bombers Shannanigans and all who make manner mules/nexi? Two things.
There is a difference between BM and throwing a match (which is clearly what happened, as evidenced by the lack of control input after the initial box-move).
Second, those things you mention considered BM are meant to disrespect their opponents. What Naniwa did could be considered disrespectful to pretty much everyone involved in the tournament except himself.
I don't care for or respect players who thrown down manner mules or any of that garbage personally, but do not try to equate such behavior with what Naniwa did. Not in the same class, at all.
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On December 15 2011 02:11 SC2NeCro wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 02:08 Femari wrote:On December 15 2011 02:06 SC2NeCro wrote:On December 15 2011 02:01 iky43210 wrote:On December 15 2011 02:00 oogieogie wrote:On December 15 2011 01:56 iky43210 wrote:On December 15 2011 01:53 Shalaiyn wrote:On December 15 2011 01:46 iky43210 wrote:On December 15 2011 01:45 Fjodorov wrote:
The main point here is that Naniwa is being punished for breaking a rule that doesnt exist. Its simply unprofessional practice by GOM. match fixing is a rule that doesn't exist now? Don't talk about terms you obviously have no idea about what they mean. Match fix: occurs as a match is played to a completely or partially pre-determined result. tell me which part of Naniwa's action was not match fixing Naniwa wasn't going to throw the match if he won the other matchs or if nestea won the other matchs? Also this is more to just throwing a match not match fixing at all. throwing a match is match fixing... Except both of them were out of the tournament, so what were they trying to fix, huh? You are still match-fixing. Doesn't mean it's a malicious sAviOr type of thing, but by definition it's match-fixing. Match fixing occurs between the cooperation of 2 parties, with a pre-determined positive result for one of them. None of this happened. It was a thrown game that is all, stop blowing it out of proportion.
Actually throwing a game is match fixing.
If you bet against yourself and deliberately lost, you've fixed the match, regardless if the other player knows about it.
A snooker players John Higgins has much controversy regarding this.
Naniwa could argue, it's a legitimate strategy to win, but no-one actually would believe that.
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On December 15 2011 02:12 Drunkface wrote:Show nested quote +
Anyway, it wasn't for completely meaningless. It sorts out the rank between Nestea and Naniwa
In the same way that a ladder game would, which is not at all. Obviously they weren't going to reveal anything good or put any significant amount of effort into a meaningless game.
Well it showed that one of these guys is a professional and the other isn't.
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EPT
