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While I understand that there's a need to discuss this matter, this thread has way too many trash posts in it. Please think carefully about what you want to say. Ad hominem attacks on Swedish people in general, calling you fellow Starcraft fans idiots etc etc will be dealt with with harsher punishment from here on out. Keep it civil people.
Page 230: Here's some more stuff that'll get you banned!
- Conspiracy theory mongering about MLG and GOM
- Comparing people to Hitler
- Posting useless one liners of arguments that have already been repeated ad nauseum. |
On December 15 2011 02:10 TiTanIum_ wrote:
When IdrA left the GSL mid season, no one gave two thoughts about it. There wasn´t a 230+ page thread on Team Liquid and GOM didn´t ban IdrA from GSL. Now Nani drops a meaningless game and there is this shit storm. I really can´t understand.
----------------------------------------- /End thread _______________________________
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On December 15 2011 02:11 Psychobabas wrote:
Naniwa anti-establishment. I love this guy.
Yeah, great for growing eSports.
Sorry, that was sarcasm. Naniwa needs to step it up or he doesn't deserve to work under the banner of eSports.
Yeah I said work, like actually doing his job. Probe rushing is not his job, entertaining/competing (the same fucking thing) is his job.
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me me me me me me me
how about others? sponsors? fans? your pride? and professionalism?
nah fuck it, I dont want to play. It's not really a sports anyway.
right?
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On December 15 2011 02:11 SC2NeCro wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 02:08 Femari wrote:On December 15 2011 02:06 SC2NeCro wrote:On December 15 2011 02:01 iky43210 wrote:On December 15 2011 02:00 oogieogie wrote:On December 15 2011 01:56 iky43210 wrote:On December 15 2011 01:53 Shalaiyn wrote:On December 15 2011 01:46 iky43210 wrote:On December 15 2011 01:45 Fjodorov wrote:
The main point here is that Naniwa is being punished for breaking a rule that doesnt exist. Its simply unprofessional practice by GOM. match fixing is a rule that doesn't exist now? Don't talk about terms you obviously have no idea about what they mean. Match fix: occurs as a match is played to a completely or partially pre-determined result. tell me which part of Naniwa's action was not match fixing Naniwa wasn't going to throw the match if he won the other matchs or if nestea won the other matchs? Also this is more to just throwing a match not match fixing at all. throwing a match is match fixing... Except both of them were out of the tournament, so what were they trying to fix, huh? You are still match-fixing. Doesn't mean it's a malicious sAviOr type of thing, but by definition it's match-fixing. Match fixing occurs between the cooperation of 2 parties, with a pre-determined positive result for one of them. None of this happened. It was a thrown game that is all, stop blowing it out of proportion.
Match fixing can occur without cooperation of 2 parties. Just like in soccer game, you kick the ball into your own net.
And what savior, luxury etc did in BW are also 1 side only, not 2 parties.
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On December 15 2011 02:07 Tachion wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 01:42 MorroW wrote:
but dont you guys agree in general making a rule where if a game doesnt matter, player should be allowed to request for walkover? or do you prefer them to be forced to play a game that doesnt matter? because this to me is far more important discussion than whatever else happened here
a rule like this to me, makes perfect sense It's one game. Just play it for the fans, it's really not that big a deal. Small price to pay for being able to participate in the biggest tournament in the world.
Like Morrow put it earlier, Naniwa shouldn't be forced to be an actor. Naniwa is the probably the most genuine progamer out there, I hate that Gom is trying to destroying the integrity of the game. This whole situation made possible and brought to you by Gom's horrible format! Basically, Gom shouldn't shit where they eat.
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On December 15 2011 02:12 Wallstreet11 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 02:02 diophan wrote:On December 15 2011 01:43 XRaDiiX wrote:On December 15 2011 01:41 JiPrime wrote:On December 15 2011 01:40 XRaDiiX wrote:On December 15 2011 01:37 JiPrime wrote:On December 15 2011 01:35 XRaDiiX wrote:
Based on the Actions GomTV took i guess its ok to ban people for 6 pool or Manner Mule kk
Making up rules as you go along extremely unprofessional by Mr Chae.... i don't know what to say about rash harsh decision to ban NaNiwa this is huge mistake considering players are free to to whatever strategy they see fit... As I have said before, this rule already existed, just not on paper. And even if that probe-all-in was a strategy, he gave no effort to try to pull it off, which is evident with his hand on his chin instead of keyboard. Based on what rule you think is relevant if a players i offended by strategy etc... if we can say that is a valid rule to be upheld That means if a player is offended by someones cheese strat (eg: 6 pool,2 Rax, Proxy buildings) They should suffer the same punishment? No? Like i said the post on page 195 makes more sense than any other post in this thread you just failed to read it. On December 15 2011 00:42 VoirDire wrote:
"During a match, a player shall not offend the opponent or audience with abusive behaviors"
The problem is that what's offensive is completely arbitrary. Offense is not something "given", it's "taken". A person can choose to be offended by anything if he wants to, but you cant forcibly offend a person that does not choose not to take offense. You still don't get it. It's not about WHAT he did, it's about HOW he did it. How he did it? What he 6 Probe rushed and lost then gg.... that's what he did... Just because someone is offended by how he play isn't breaking the rules its arbitrary based on how the individual he played against and/or audience reacts to what he did. Guess by that double standard then we should ban people for manner mules because its 'offensive' and we should ban people for 6 pool , 2 rax, proxy buildings. You are the one who doesn't get it... Did you watch the game? He never used the keyboard, he grabbed all his probes, a moved into his opponent's base, and did nothing else for the rest of the game. So he should be judged that using one hand cuts his win % by 50 percentage points? Oh okay. So exactly HOW should you use yout body if you would like to GET AWAY with losing a pointless game? So everyone can prepare... At least he A moved and same did Nestea. BAN Nestea for not microing!
Don't insult GOM and everyone watching by refusing to try at all. I, along with plenty of people, are insulted that Nani refused to play a game that I was excited to see. I have never seen anything at GSL that comes close to that level of giving a middle finger to everyone watching and GOM.
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On December 15 2011 02:07 Shortynut wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 02:02 QuasarStarcraft wrote:
Ok first off since everyone is going into other sports, in the NFL usually when a team has lost the game (its a blow out) they will try to end the game by running the ball. This is obviously not trying to win as being down 20 points is not recovered from running the ball with little time left. Near the end of the season when guaranteed playoffs or home-field advantage teams have no incentive to win (none at all), this leads to most if not all first-string(starting) players getting the day off (again not trying to win).
In my opinion GOM should not take away Naniwa's Code S spot. It in my opinion is a slap in the face to the "League Exchange" where I believe that "abusive behavior" rule was taken to the most extreme you can possibly take a rule in applying it to something it doesn't apply to. The point of this was GOM feeling pressure from the Korean culture and populace to do something about Naniwa "throwing" a game, even though there is no specific rule and what Naniwa did wasn't illegal. This shows that if GOM doesn't like you, or doesn't like something you did they can take whatever action they want regardless of any rules or agreements
tl;dr
Other sports do this
IMO GOM reacted to pressure and not to a rule being broken
GOM set precedent if they don't like what you did can do whatever they want
Naniwa should be awarded the Code S spot he rightfully earned It happens in all sports around the world, an Australian football team in the last match of the 2011 Ladder season rested only 4 of their key players because they were guaranteed 1st, and were thrashed hard! Though they didn't intentionally throw the game, they just fielded a weaker team.
But thats not the same. What Naniwa did was basically the team sitting on the field the hole game giving their opponent a free ride. He didn't even make an effort and basically told everybody to fuck themselves. If you don't wanna play seriously thats fine but at least try and don't act like a 5 year old .
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On December 15 2011 01:46 tlin wrote:
I'll be eagerly awaiting NesTea's GSL ban for fucking around in games against HuK.
Because it's not like GOM could ever hold Koreans to dfifferent standards than they do Foreigners, right?
life isnt fair get over it. gom made the right choice. a ban wouldve been going too far but this is fine. its not up to any1 but the league to interpret their rules. if the player who is affected doesnt like how its interpreted, then take it to court but u wont win since ur not korean. ur a minority in a foreign country so either show more respect than u would in ur own country or just suck it up when u get treated "unfairly." minorities get treated "unfairly" sometimes in a foreign country, are ppl actually surprised/outraged from this? LOL
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On December 15 2011 01:30 diophan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 01:28 FrankWalls wrote:On December 15 2011 01:26 foxmulder_ms wrote:
So good. I applaud for GSL doing this!
IF, you guys want SC2 to be a sport, you should have zero tolerance for throwing the games. Great decision, I 100% support this. it's pretty standard in pro sports for teams to not play their best players or goof around a bit if a game is meaningless. you see this a lot in the nfl at the end of the season. nobody ridicules them for that. ever. this naniwa situation is just the most extreme version of that Throwing a game is not the same as not sending out your best players all the time. Just like if you're playing some scrub in the first round of a tournament you don't use your best build, which you just developed.
it definitely can be like this. depending on the quality of your b-teamers. remember when the colts were on the road to a perfect regular season and let manning and some other key players rest for the last games, they lost pretty badly. when you are looking for a comparison to starcraft not sending your b-team means more like playing with the mouse what sc2 players apparantly have done according to morrow
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On December 15 2011 02:12 Wallstreet11 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 02:02 diophan wrote:On December 15 2011 01:43 XRaDiiX wrote:On December 15 2011 01:41 JiPrime wrote:On December 15 2011 01:40 XRaDiiX wrote:On December 15 2011 01:37 JiPrime wrote:On December 15 2011 01:35 XRaDiiX wrote:
Based on the Actions GomTV took i guess its ok to ban people for 6 pool or Manner Mule kk
Making up rules as you go along extremely unprofessional by Mr Chae.... i don't know what to say about rash harsh decision to ban NaNiwa this is huge mistake considering players are free to to whatever strategy they see fit... As I have said before, this rule already existed, just not on paper. And even if that probe-all-in was a strategy, he gave no effort to try to pull it off, which is evident with his hand on his chin instead of keyboard. Based on what rule you think is relevant if a players i offended by strategy etc... if we can say that is a valid rule to be upheld That means if a player is offended by someones cheese strat (eg: 6 pool,2 Rax, Proxy buildings) They should suffer the same punishment? No? Like i said the post on page 195 makes more sense than any other post in this thread you just failed to read it. On December 15 2011 00:42 VoirDire wrote:
"During a match, a player shall not offend the opponent or audience with abusive behaviors"
The problem is that what's offensive is completely arbitrary. Offense is not something "given", it's "taken". A person can choose to be offended by anything if he wants to, but you cant forcibly offend a person that does not choose not to take offense. You still don't get it. It's not about WHAT he did, it's about HOW he did it. How he did it? What he 6 Probe rushed and lost then gg.... that's what he did... Just because someone is offended by how he play isn't breaking the rules its arbitrary based on how the individual he played against and/or audience reacts to what he did. Guess by that double standard then we should ban people for manner mules because its 'offensive' and we should ban people for 6 pool , 2 rax, proxy buildings. You are the one who doesn't get it... Did you watch the game? He never used the keyboard, he grabbed all his probes, a moved into his opponent's base, and did nothing else for the rest of the game. So he should be judged that using one hand cuts his win % by 50 percentage points? Oh okay. So exactly HOW should you use yout body if you would like to GET AWAY with losing a pointless game? So everyone can prepare... At least he A moved and same did Nestea. BAN Nestea for not microing!
how about play it seriously? or at least not make it so blatantly obvious.
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United States23455 Posts
On December 15 2011 02:07 Wallstreet11 wrote:
Seriously are you entertainded(Glad inc) by seeing GSL full of koreans who have the exact same haircut, body shape, way of talking and mannerism? When Bomber and MC BM they are "unique" and "funny". When a foreigner like Naniwa does the thumbs down he gets booed at MLG and then he gets a severe punishment for "dissing" as some have called it a korean player?
Haha such a huuuuge amount of hypocrisy. "You do not probe rush a korean player because it was considered disrespectful. THEY WHAT is MC´s thumbs down, Bombers Shannanigans and all who make manner mules/nexi?
That is of course allowed and they don´t get shit for that but when a foreigner does not take a game seriously he gets punished in less than 24h!? Jesus what an organisation
Wow, this post is pretty damn racist.
Also they are giving two free Code S spots to foreigners. If GOM and GSL made foreigners qualify the right way, by, you know, actually going through the Code A qualifiers, we would probably see maybe one or two foreigners, at most, make Code S next year.
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Just so we can clear things up what is the minium work required to put into a exhibition match before it stops being "legitimate" and becomes a "sham"
Is there an APM limit you've got to reach or a certain miminium strategy you've got to pursue.
"You must at very least 4-gate or cannon rush as protoss and reach an average APM of 50"
I just want some clear guides from GOM for the players 
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ALLEYCAT BLUES50754 Posts
On December 15 2011 02:13 Wallstreet11 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 02:10 TiTanIum_ wrote:
When IdrA left the GSL mid season, no one gave two thoughts about it. There wasn´t a 230+ page thread on Team Liquid and GOM didn´t ban IdrA from GSL. Now Nani drops a meaningless game and there is this shit storm. I really can´t understand. ----------------------------------------- /End thread _______________________________
I thought he quit right before the start of the season?
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This whole thing is utter bullshit and Mr Chae is a joke. Just because Koreans hgold their self to some bullshit standard of STUPID HONOR that actually means ZERO doesnt mean everyone else has to...
Naniwa is right.. GOM is totally fucking wrong.. Period
User was warned for this post
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On December 15 2011 02:02 Holloworb wrote:
I understand your reasoning MorroW., but i can't say I agree. You can't get explicitly warned about everything you aren't alowed to or shouldn't do in this world.
Everyone is making sport analogies in this thread because thats what you should be comparing yourselves to. Lets say that Djurdgården and AIK met for the final match of the season, there's nothing on the line, all the spots in the league has been decided. So one team decides they dont want to play, they keep score on their own goal etc. You really think there wouldn't have been repercussions?
There are sports where this is allowed or even expected. People pull out of Swiss-system chess tournaments all the time. If an organizer expects a player to play all their games they are definitely required to inform the player beforehand.
For me part of the problem is that this is a grey area. Yes, Naniwa probably should have known better. Yes, it is ultimately the organizer's right to decide these issues. But when the situation isn't clear in the first place you don't punish the first time. And certainly don't comment on the professionalism of the player in public. You say you're unhappy with how the player acted, maybe issue a warning and explain the expectations and consequences for the future.
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On December 15 2011 02:13 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 02:07 Shortynut wrote:On December 15 2011 02:02 QuasarStarcraft wrote:
Ok first off since everyone is going into other sports, in the NFL usually when a team has lost the game (its a blow out) they will try to end the game by running the ball. This is obviously not trying to win as being down 20 points is not recovered from running the ball with little time left. Near the end of the season when guaranteed playoffs or home-field advantage teams have no incentive to win (none at all), this leads to most if not all first-string(starting) players getting the day off (again not trying to win).
In my opinion GOM should not take away Naniwa's Code S spot. It in my opinion is a slap in the face to the "League Exchange" where I believe that "abusive behavior" rule was taken to the most extreme you can possibly take a rule in applying it to something it doesn't apply to. The point of this was GOM feeling pressure from the Korean culture and populace to do something about Naniwa "throwing" a game, even though there is no specific rule and what Naniwa did wasn't illegal. This shows that if GOM doesn't like you, or doesn't like something you did they can take whatever action they want regardless of any rules or agreements
tl;dr
Other sports do this
IMO GOM reacted to pressure and not to a rule being broken
GOM set precedent if they don't like what you did can do whatever they want
Naniwa should be awarded the Code S spot he rightfully earned It happens in all sports around the world, an Australian football team in the last match of the 2011 Ladder season rested only 4 of their key players because they were guaranteed 1st, and were thrashed hard! Though they didn't intentionally throw the game, they just fielded a weaker team. But thats not the same. What Naniwa did was basically the team sitting on the field the hole game giving their opponent a free ride. He didn't even make an effort and basically told everybody to fuck themselves.
exactly, fielding a B team would be similar to cannon rushing or choosing an inferior build in order to not reveal his true build.
probe rushing is just giving middle finger to everyone
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On December 15 2011 02:01 iky43210 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 02:00 oogieogie wrote:On December 15 2011 01:56 iky43210 wrote:On December 15 2011 01:53 Shalaiyn wrote:On December 15 2011 01:46 iky43210 wrote:On December 15 2011 01:45 Fjodorov wrote:
The main point here is that Naniwa is being punished for breaking a rule that doesnt exist. Its simply unprofessional practice by GOM. match fixing is a rule that doesn't exist now? Don't talk about terms you obviously have no idea about what they mean. Match fix: occurs as a match is played to a completely or partially pre-determined result. tell me which part of Naniwa's action was not match fixing Naniwa wasn't going to throw the match if he won the other matchs or if nestea won the other matchs? Also this is more to just throwing a match not match fixing at all. throwing a match is match fixing...
I see match fixing as more "im going to intentionally let this other player win so he can advance/help teammates/win bets whatever" while match throwing is "this match is meaningless to both players, and has no impact at all so i am just going to worker rush".
Also nani didn't expect to just probe rush nestea, and probably expected a matchup given they still had a chance in the tournament. They did not have a chance left though so he just gave up, and basically quit.
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On December 15 2011 02:13 Wallstreet11 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 02:10 TiTanIum_ wrote:
When IdrA left the GSL mid season, no one gave two thoughts about it. There wasn´t a 230+ page thread on Team Liquid and GOM didn´t ban IdrA from GSL. Now Nani drops a meaningless game and there is this shit storm. I really can´t understand. ----------------------------------------- /End thread _______________________________
Idra gave them ample time before he left and it was on good term.
It is two completely different situations
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can someone edit the OP and tell us what exactly naniwa did?
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EPT
