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While I understand that there's a need to discuss this matter, this thread has way too many trash posts in it. Please think carefully about what you want to say. Ad hominem attacks on Swedish people in general, calling you fellow Starcraft fans idiots etc etc will be dealt with with harsher punishment from here on out. Keep it civil people.
Page 230: Here's some more stuff that'll get you banned!
- Conspiracy theory mongering about MLG and GOM
- Comparing people to Hitler
- Posting useless one liners of arguments that have already been repeated ad nauseum. |
It's so ironic that the guy with arguably the biggest winning mentality gets banned for something like this. I mean we all know Naniwa is "special" in his mentality, shit like this happens around him. If anyone plays to win tournaments, it's Naniwa!
I think it's bad for ESPORTS if we can't accept someone with Naniwas mentality for what it is and accept that some crazy stuff will happen around him, that's just how it is. He reminds me of some of the best football(the one where you use your feet) players with his mentality. Many of the best football players, especially strikers, have a special egoistic and winner mentality that makes them come off as jerks at times but that same mentality is exactly why they are the best.
If anything we need more profiles like Naniwa, Idra, Whitera, Huk in ESPORTS imo, players that you love or hate. We have more than enough boring players that noone gives a shit about, like most Koreans.
I think it's a big overreaction from GOM and they should rethink what this will actually achieve.
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On December 15 2011 01:42 Avril_Lavigne wrote:
Jokes on him, guess Nestea gets the last laugh. Don't know what the big deal is, NaNiWa intentionally did what he did to make a mockery of GOM tv judging by the unprofessional posture and his bored face. not only did he waste his time but the time of spectators who were expecting to see Code S level play, wasting the time of the commentators who go out of their way to do their job who dress in suits as professional as possible. Not some bull shit rebellious crap pulled by an angsty little girl. He's probably given a totally bad name to the Swedish people you all should be angered. Those in other countries including Koreans may even believe that perhaps, Sweden accepts this kind of behavior in their country? Try to see it as a bigger picture, not just amongst the minority of sc2 gamers. For those who think that what naniwa did is acceptable then you need to face the facts that reality is different from ideal. You can say he technically didn't break "any rules" but seriously, the real world doesn't always work like that. Try the NFL and NBA, lets put a team in there who doesn't want to face the other team, have them dance around the entire game to show their rebelliousness, they aren't breaking any rules, or perhaps they are? The bigger picture is is that it's completely disrespectful to the audience and the hosts of the tournament, it's wasting peoples money, the audience and the employees who help set this shit up. Seriously, use your god damn brain, you're dealing with an asian culture who in their perspective find this very offensive.
Well said, I'm Swedish myself and I don't give a f*ck about Naniwa, he's your typical immature kid. Grow some balls and atleast try to act in a manner way.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
On December 15 2011 02:00 Psychobabas wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 01:56 B.I.G. wrote:
the poor guy just seems to be so socially awkard I dont think he realises how people will react to half the stuff he does... Extremely good point. Sometimes I do wonder if he has: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asperger_syndromeA member of my family has this. Very similar mannerisms to Naniwa. Just a thought and nothing more.
we could play bingo in this thread with all the reasons that we have here.
so who has aspergers on their card?
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On December 15 2011 01:43 XRaDiiX wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 01:41 JiPrime wrote:On December 15 2011 01:40 XRaDiiX wrote:On December 15 2011 01:37 JiPrime wrote:On December 15 2011 01:35 XRaDiiX wrote:
Based on the Actions GomTV took i guess its ok to ban people for 6 pool or Manner Mule kk
Making up rules as you go along extremely unprofessional by Mr Chae.... i don't know what to say about rash harsh decision to ban NaNiwa this is huge mistake considering players are free to to whatever strategy they see fit... As I have said before, this rule already existed, just not on paper. And even if that probe-all-in was a strategy, he gave no effort to try to pull it off, which is evident with his hand on his chin instead of keyboard. Based on what rule you think is relevant if a players i offended by strategy etc... if we can say that is a valid rule to be upheld That means if a player is offended by someones cheese strat (eg: 6 pool,2 Rax, Proxy buildings) They should suffer the same punishment? No? Like i said the post on page 195 makes more sense than any other post in this thread you just failed to read it. On December 15 2011 00:42 VoirDire wrote:
"During a match, a player shall not offend the opponent or audience with abusive behaviors"
The problem is that what's offensive is completely arbitrary. Offense is not something "given", it's "taken". A person can choose to be offended by anything if he wants to, but you cant forcibly offend a person that does not choose not to take offense. You still don't get it. It's not about WHAT he did, it's about HOW he did it. How he did it? What he 6 Probe rushed and lost then gg.... that's what he did... Just because someone is offended by how he play isn't breaking the rules its arbitrary based on how the individual he played against and/or audience reacts to what he did. Guess by that double standard then we should ban people for manner mules because its 'offensive' and we should ban people for 6 pool , 2 rax, proxy buildings. You are the one who doesn't get it...
Did you watch the game? He never used the keyboard, he grabbed all his probes, a moved into his opponent's base, and did nothing else for the rest of the game.
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They called him a "prize money hunter" and then said he was unprofessional? Mr. Chae you are a hypocrite.
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On December 15 2011 02:00 Fionn wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 01:59 Kurr wrote:On December 15 2011 01:57 BLinD-RawR wrote:On December 15 2011 01:56 MLG_Lee wrote:
Folks, we're just becoming aware of the decision from GSL. We don't have all the facts yet and are investigating.
Please stay tuned. Thanks,
Lee clear this shitsorm my friend,for all our sakes! Yeah, imagine MLG decided to refuse to pay for Korean's flight to MLG Providence. I'm SURE GSL wouldn't have minded that right? The fact that GSL even took this decision without factoring in their partnership is even worse than I thought initially. This could literally break the exchange program. They paid for the Koreans to go to Providence?
Well, they paid for the 4 invited seeds each tournament. I assume Providence was not different although it being the last tournament maybe it was.
The point is, GSL is not holding their end of the agreement here.
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Okay, this is my first post here, but I've been reading TL almost ever since SC2 entered the scene.
I've partly watched ALL GSL's except the first, followed every single MLG as well as other minor tournaments.
I have never been a Naniwa fanboy, but nor have I been a hater.
All I want to say that I dislike his attitude pretty badly. He's in my opinion ignorant and arrogant (I hope I wont be warned for expressing my opinion in a rather neutral way). Naniwa proved once again yesterday this attitude. And for koreans, it's quite a big insult. Now, sure we have cultural collisions and such, but there is one major major reason to why I agree 100% with GSL's decision. And that is - Naniwa is attending a tournament that is hosted, funded and arranged by koreans. It's THEIR tournament. Naniwa should be glad to get an invitation to be competing there. I dont think I have to say why.
Furthermore - what Naniwa expressed yesterday was (once again my opinion) the attitude of a bountyhunter. Which for me is really bad.
All progamers play for US. WE are the ones that allows the progamers to earn money on progaming, because WE support it. If we wouldnt, the eSports wouldnt exist.
I also believe that yesterdays event showed a major disrespect (excluding us, fans) to Nestea. And for me this doesnt matter if it was a korean or foreigner that would be the "victim" of such "play".
It doesnt matter what is to be said, Naniwa made a huge blunder, and was disrespectful to Nestea, GSL and us fans of eSports.
I'd also like to add that I dont entierly agree with GSL either - as they are "changing their mind" that Providence was not a seed to code S but a "consideration". Which I'd say is kinda ridiculous they could have just said as it was instead of "changing their mind".
Also, I'd like to put up again what Morrow said:
There should be an opportunity of saying that you dont want to play a match, like this one yesterday.
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On December 15 2011 02:01 iky43210 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 02:00 oogieogie wrote:On December 15 2011 01:56 iky43210 wrote:On December 15 2011 01:53 Shalaiyn wrote:On December 15 2011 01:46 iky43210 wrote:On December 15 2011 01:45 Fjodorov wrote:
The main point here is that Naniwa is being punished for breaking a rule that doesnt exist. Its simply unprofessional practice by GOM. match fixing is a rule that doesn't exist now? Don't talk about terms you obviously have no idea about what they mean. Match fix: occurs as a match is played to a completely or partially pre-determined result. tell me which part of Naniwa's action was not match fixing Naniwa wasn't going to throw the match if he won the other matchs or if nestea won the other matchs? Also this is more to just throwing a match not match fixing at all. throwing a match is match fixing...
Indeed.
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On December 15 2011 01:56 iky43210 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 01:53 Shalaiyn wrote:On December 15 2011 01:46 iky43210 wrote:On December 15 2011 01:45 Fjodorov wrote:
The main point here is that Naniwa is being punished for breaking a rule that doesnt exist. Its simply unprofessional practice by GOM. match fixing is a rule that doesn't exist now? Don't talk about terms you obviously have no idea about what they mean. Match fix: occurs as a match is played to a completely or partially pre-determined result. tell me which part of Naniwa's action was not match fixing
No monetary gain.
You realize this isn't the first time players dropped games on purpose/not shown up, or didn't give it their all?
As soon as we start picking players apart for not giving it 100%, which happens all the time. You're walking on a thin line.
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Good to see action taken against such unprofessional behaviour. You might not think one person throwing a game is a big deal, but unless they show it's unacceptable and dole out punishment accordingly, next thing you know, everyone could be doing it and citing previous cases of people throwing games and going unpunished as justification for their actions. A tournament where games are being thrown left and right would NOT be fun to watch nor would it feel like your ticket was worth it.
He deserves the ban.
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On December 15 2011 02:01 kickinhead wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 01:54 FuzzyJAM wrote:
Well this is. . .unfortunate.
Reasonable decision from GOM. Sucks for Naniwa, but it's his own fault completely. how can anyone truly mean this? He threw a game that didn't matter - How is it reasonable to deny him a code-S spot he clearly earned from MLG (and I remember vividly how commentators, twitter-posts etc. stated that nani has won a Code-S spot so don't try and tell me otherwise, because this was one of the highlights of that MLG for me - Nani getting into Code-S), to totally call him out and to trashtalk about him and even publish statements from other totally close-minded coaches from the KeSpa-era that publicly shit on Nani. Because he threw a game that didn't matter? Was it stupid by Nani? Yes. Was it a slap in the face to his fans? Yes. But the fact is, that it's understandable due to the stupid format, his emotional status and there is no clear ruling that allows GSL to deny his Code-S spot. By the logic ppl like you apply, you should be able to put ppl in Prison that forgot to buy you a birthday-present.... -.-°
Don't apply your own logic to everyone else. By any means it is a very standard way to deal with this kind of things in the professionnal world.
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You know, plenty of sports force athletes to play meaningless games. Dead rubbers in Tennis team tournaments, bottom-fender NFL games, consolation rounds in the Olympics (yes, a lot of sports in the Olympics make people play out non-medal positions)... when you're payed to play a game you play it, even if the outcome doesn't matter to you. That's what being a professional means. The only real excuse for dropping out / not trying in those kind of situations are injury.
And not being able to play a good game in those situations is bs. Dead games in the FIFA world cup tend to be quite decent, the third place games in those world cups tend to be even better than the final (see: Uruguay vs Germany) and a lot of Olympic B-finals tend to be quite entertaining (the B-final of the men's 5000m relay, which only had two teams due to a disqualification, was actually a sick two way race). Point being that athletes play excellent meaningless games all the time. NaNiwa has no excuse.
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On December 15 2011 02:02 QuasarStarcraft wrote:
Ok first off since everyone is going into other sports, in the NFL usually when a team has lost the game (its a blow out) they will try to end the game by running the ball. This is obviously not trying to win as being down 20 points is not recovered from running the ball with little time left. Near the end of the season when guaranteed playoffs or home-field advantage teams have no incentive to win (none at all), this leads to most if not all first-string(starting) players getting the day off (again not trying to win).
In my opinion GOM should not take away Naniwa's Code S spot. It in my opinion is a slap in the face to the "League Exchange" where I believe that "abusive behavior" rule was taken to the most extreme you can possibly take a rule in applying it to something it doesn't apply to. The point of this was GOM feeling pressure from the Korean culture and populace to do something about Naniwa "throwing" a game, even though there is no specific rule and what Naniwa did wasn't illegal. This shows that if GOM doesn't like you, or doesn't like something you did they can take whatever action they want regardless of any rules or agreements
tl;dr
Other sports do this
IMO GOM reacted to pressure and not to a rule being broken
GOM set precedent if they don't like what you did can do whatever they want
Naniwa should be awarded the Code S spot he rightfully earned
god this sports analogy has been done to death
not fielding a complete A team doesnt mean who's on the field doesn't perform their best.
What naniwa did is akin to showing up, then just dick around doing nothing.
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On December 15 2011 01:59 Govou wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 01:53 MorroW wrote:On December 15 2011 01:45 Govou wrote:On December 15 2011 01:42 MorroW wrote:
but dont you guys agree in general making a rule where if a game doesnt matter, player should be allowed to request for walkover? or do you prefer them to be forced to play a game that doesnt matter? because this to me is far more important discussion than whatever else happened here
a rule like this to me, makes perfect sense when the money and sponsors are involved you dont get to chose which games you dont want to play as a player. if it is scheduled, and if you are paid, you should play. and at least make in plausible. do you watch world cup? I guess you dont well as a player, again, i would never want to act a game for my fans. would make me feel like a fraud. plus i would never want to watch or hear that flash (who i am fan of) would be forced to act a game that doesnt matter but if you sign the contract and make it clear with the tournament admins that you HAVE to play ALL games, then this was wrong by naniwa. but we get into these iffy situations at times because of the tournament organisation, and their format doesnt make it clear to the players what they have to do when they sign up for the tournament. if gsl said in beforehand "naniwa, even if you lose 0-3 and some other guy lose 0-3, you still have to play your game against him even if the game doesnt matter at all, try to make the game look good okok?". so agreeing to these things in beforehand is the orgas responsibility, not the players if naniwa knew this would revoke his code S, im 110% sure he wouldnt probe rush. but the orga failed to "warn" him or make it clear to him about the conditions which is the reason all this happened in the first place. that is why i think it was wrong for gsl to point the finger at naniwa and punish him. that is why i think its the tournament orgas to blame, not the player again you are putting the responsiblity on GOM and their tournament structure. Based on the backlash by (mostly) swedish people, I would say it may have a flaw. However, there are some major tournaments in the world that runs by group stage-> tournament format without any of this bullshit going on. Also IMO, GOM did not have to baby lecture Naniwa about how he was required to at least put the least amount effort. Naniwa agreed to play knowing the format before hand... and now suddenly he finds the format BS when he is 0-3. yeah whatever. Most of all, I dont even think this kind topic is debatable. I'm a avid sports fan and I would have flipped out if something like this happened in any other sports. Where plays just dick around and do nothing. If this behaviour is accepted in Sweden, I want to move there. Because I can find every loophole in the contract and just mail it in.
I don't understand why your trying to make this a national thing. I've seen plenty of people from other nations equally apalled by this sudden decesion by GOMTV against Naniwa.
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On December 15 2011 01:59 Kurr wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 01:57 BLinD-RawR wrote:On December 15 2011 01:56 MLG_Lee wrote:
Folks, we're just becoming aware of the decision from GSL. We don't have all the facts yet and are investigating.
Please stay tuned. Thanks,
Lee clear this shitsorm my friend,for all our sakes! Yeah, imagine MLG decided to refuse to pay for Korean's flight to MLG Providence. I'm SURE GSL wouldn't have minded that right? The fact that GSL even took this decision without factoring in their partnership is even worse than I thought initially. This could literally break the exchange program.
What now?
GSL is completely within their rights to boot players from THEIR tournament. As is MLG. MLG doesn't play the role of defending Naniwa here, all they need to do is clear up how the exchange program worked for MLG providence.
(I'm assuming that for MLG providence no koreans were paid for their flights and GomTV had no hand in selecting 4 guys to receive that treatment.)
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On December 15 2011 02:03 Kurr wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 02:00 Fionn wrote:On December 15 2011 01:59 Kurr wrote:On December 15 2011 01:57 BLinD-RawR wrote:On December 15 2011 01:56 MLG_Lee wrote:
Folks, we're just becoming aware of the decision from GSL. We don't have all the facts yet and are investigating.
Please stay tuned. Thanks,
Lee clear this shitsorm my friend,for all our sakes! Yeah, imagine MLG decided to refuse to pay for Korean's flight to MLG Providence. I'm SURE GSL wouldn't have minded that right? The fact that GSL even took this decision without factoring in their partnership is even worse than I thought initially. This could literally break the exchange program. They paid for the Koreans to go to Providence? Well, they paid for the 4 invited seeds each tournament. I assume Providence was not different although it being the last tournament maybe it was. The point is, GSL is not holding their end of the agreement here.
There were no Korean seeds at Providence.
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On December 15 2011 02:02 puttputt wrote:
They called him a "prize money hunter" and then said he was unprofessional? Mr. Chae you are a hypocrite.
he is a prize hunter was he not?
only play seriously when theres potential money to be made
does not care about his fans, when theres no money on the line, goes for random probe rush
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Nani bit the hand that feeds him and loses his seed the coming season as a consequence?
If I were the one writing his pro contract, I'd make sure that there is a paragraph in there that says that he actually has to play that matches he's expected to. If it's non-televised and no real effort has gone into the match, sure, but this was a casted match on stage (televised?).
He should've manned the fuck up and played.
The punishment might've been taken from a rule out of the blue, but in my opinion it's completely justified. It's not like he's banned for a year or something anyway. He'll be back and hopefully a bit more patient next time.
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Was waiting to see how GOM would handle this before I made any decisions on the premium pass. Glad to see they have integrity and so now I'm going to get the premium pass. Totally correct decision by Gom.
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On December 15 2011 02:03 Kurr wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 02:00 Fionn wrote:On December 15 2011 01:59 Kurr wrote:On December 15 2011 01:57 BLinD-RawR wrote:On December 15 2011 01:56 MLG_Lee wrote:
Folks, we're just becoming aware of the decision from GSL. We don't have all the facts yet and are investigating.
Please stay tuned. Thanks,
Lee clear this shitsorm my friend,for all our sakes! Yeah, imagine MLG decided to refuse to pay for Korean's flight to MLG Providence. I'm SURE GSL wouldn't have minded that right? The fact that GSL even took this decision without factoring in their partnership is even worse than I thought initially. This could literally break the exchange program. They paid for the Koreans to go to Providence? Well, they paid for the 4 invited seeds each tournament. I assume Providence was not different although it being the last tournament maybe it was. The point is, GSL is not holding their end of the agreement here.
No championship pool so I don't know how they would've had invites to put into the pools and no Korean invites were announced.
And to emphasize yet again. Code S is a privelage, not a right. You fuck up, you lose it.
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EPT
