While I understand that there's a need to discuss this matter, this thread has way too many trash posts in it. Please think carefully about what you want to say. Ad hominem attacks on Swedish people in general, calling you fellow Starcraft fans idiots etc etc will be dealt with with harsher punishment from here on out. Keep it civil people.
Page 230: Here's some more stuff that'll get you banned! - Conspiracy theory mongering about MLG and GOM - Comparing people to Hitler - Posting useless one liners of arguments that have already been repeated ad nauseum.
On December 14 2011 22:14 .Sic. wrote: "During a match, a player shall not offend the opponent or audience with abusive behaviours" Gom stepped over the boundaries by deciding that they have the right to determine what play is "offensive to opponents/audience" or not.
What exactly about the ensuing furore makes you think GOM got that call wrong?
I've read a good few of the 100+ pages of this thread and without exception those opposed to GOM's decision have focused on only a small part of the big picture.
Sure, the match didn't matter as far as Naniwa's chances in the competition were concerned. So if that's all you decide to care about, his decision was entirely reasonable.
But professional sport is not about pandering to one individual. In professional sport, everyone is in it together: players, spectators, organisers, officials - everyone. It only works if we all pull together.
Are victory ceremonies or in-game victory BM (to which this has been compared) against the spirit of the sport? No. Fans love that stuff; it foments rivalries, increase the spectacle. Obviously there is a point where they would become detrimental (literally pissing into your opponent's cubicle for instance), but right now, no.
Would Nestea going on tilt and 6-pooling in that same game be against the spirit of the sport? No. A 6-pool is a genuine, if desperate, attempt to win. It would at least show he cared.
What Naniwa did, on the other hand, was entirely selfish. He denied Nestea a chance to save face by earning a win, made his sponsors look stupid after they hyped the game, used the match as a platform to humiliate the organisers for their choice of format - a format he signed up for by choosing to take part, disappointed the fans who stayed up to watch - in short, he made it perfectly clear that the only thing he gave a damn about was himself.
If you think 'SC2-pro' is just a kind of unofficial league above GM, you're woefully mistaken. Doing anything professionally carries obligations over and above those attached to a recreational activity, because it's no longer just about you. It's about you and the people paying you. You can cook? Great! You want to be a chef? Better start adhering to health and safety and hygiene standards, and getting food out on time and on budget. You can take nice photos? Great! Want to be a wedding photographer? Then you'll be wanting insurance and a network of other pros in case you're ill on the day. You'll be multiply-RAIDing your hard drives, scouting venues, honing your interpersonal and organisational skills so that the wedding party have a great time and great pictures to take away and don't have to spend all day away from their guests.
You can play SC2 well? Great! You want to be a pro-gamer? You want a sponsor to pay you and ferry you around from tournament to tournament? You want fans who'll tune in and maybe buy the products you endorse? Then you act like you give a shit, 100% of the time. That's part of the job.
damn amazing post. i want this to be in a new thread so everyone can see it
Since people are praising this joke of a post I guess I'll answer it. He is a pro-gamer because he does have a team, fans and sponsors that pays him a salary and they all support him in this matter. Nonsensical post? Yes. GOMTV is punishing him and they are neither of these things.
On December 14 2011 23:33 Doodsmack wrote: All these people trading their own opinions back and forth and not realizing that their own opinions are irrelevant because by Korean cultural standards, Naniwa's action was offensive. GOM is in Korean and caters to their Korean audience which almost universally finds Naniwa's action offensive. For this reason alone GOM's decision is a good one, and your opinion is irrelevant.
Your refusal to even consider the above can only be a result of one of two things - a lack of intelligence or and unwillingness to accept Korean culture.
Ill be surprised if not all cultures found what Naniwa did offensive in some ways.
On December 14 2011 23:29 Rikiya wrote: I totally understand the decision made by GOM and i will continue to support them. What Naniwa did may be small to foreigners but this is very very rude to do in Korea.
So what? It's GLOBAL star league, not Korean star league
Yes, that's why Idra and Sen are seeded for the next season.
Huge Naniwa fan here. Very disappointed by this. I mean, I'm not going to be like "grrr stop wasting my time with this immature behavior!", because lets be honest, that was interesting and fun to watch happen (at least once), but in the grand scheme of things that sort of behavior is childish and unsportsmanlike, two qualities that will ultimately hurt e-sports
On December 14 2011 23:29 Rikiya wrote: I totally understand the decision made by GOM and i will continue to support them. What Naniwa did may be small to foreigners but this is very very rude to do in Korea.
So what? It's GLOBAL star league, not Korean star league
So what? He violates the rules and offends the organizers and players in the event. That's what. Many people may have looked forward to the game Naniwa vs Nestea, especially since Naniwa always talks such a big game and trys to show how much better he is than Nestea. He robbed not only the GOM ppl and Nestea but all of the fans and players in GSL.
If you can't play by the rules, sooner or later you won't play at all.
Get your head out of your ass and understand that an olympic 100m sprinter that kicks someone else right at the start won't be participating in the next run. And yes you can compare those two, Naniwa took away Nesteas chance to win a game in the group and prove that he is a worthy player...
On December 14 2011 23:28 Mattidute wrote: Poor MorroW must be sad about the lack of support he'll be getting from his country in January's Code A. <.<
I'll definitely support him, though. He's a mannered swede just like Jinro and Haypro (or so it would seem, since i have no proof to say otherwise). I really hope GOM won't back their decision, it's a wise one and Naniwa IMO is no likeable person, so there is nothing to be sad about.
Naniwa was considered for Code S, as in not finalized but almost certain.
Naniwa was not in GSL or Code S.
So he did not earn his Code S spot as best non Code S performer at MLG Providence? I'm pretty sure he did, unless GOM will back out of their deal with MLG where that's stated pretty clearly .
No.
Read MLG-GSL exchange rule.
Unless they ninja changed it, I'm pretty sure they said top non-Code S performer will be in Code S.
On December 14 2011 23:32 Bounana wrote: I'm so glad they did this. Next time Nani should think 7 times before acting like a baby
Can you prove that he acted like a baby? He had a reason for his behavior, it wasn't irrational. I'm sorry you can't read.
He did not even have his hands on the keyboard while he did a probe rush in a PAID match against a GSL champion in a highly anticipated match in THE most prestigious starcraft 2 korean tournament?
On December 14 2011 23:26 Abphil wrote: Love how all the swedish members are complaining and whining. Would it be anyone else who would have done that and then gets his seed revoked, they wouldn't say anything. I fully understand Mr. Chae, a player should not be so disrespectful. Therefore I think Nani gets what he begged for.
And thats not a valid argument. I would even say its discrimating towards Swedes. If I were from Germany I guess I coulden't be upset by what GOM did?
It's not discrimating against Swedes. He's referring to the fact that Naniwa is Swedish so his fellow Swedish fans will defend him to the death even though majority agrees Naniwa's action was "inappropriate".
On December 14 2011 23:29 Rikiya wrote: I totally understand the decision made by GOM and i will continue to support them. What Naniwa did may be small to foreigners but this is very very rude to do in Korea.
So what? It's GLOBAL star league, not Korean star league
when in korea, do what the koreans do.
Don't get me wrong, I do that, when I visit a foreign country I respect their habits even if I don't agree with them. But that works the other way around too. A tournament that says to be international shouldn't force local morals upon the foreign players
It's already been said before that this is largely cultural clash. As someone who grew up in a very strict asian household in America I completely understand GOM's point of view. I'm familiar with both being asked to adhere to irrelevant decisions and customs and doing so just for the sake of respect.
What I ultimately feel it comes down to is this: When you go to another country, especially in these circumstances, you should try to respect their culture and customs.
Was Naniwa facing a pointless game? Yes. Was there much incentive to win it? Depends on how you describe incentive(I would consider beating someone who's seen as one of the greatest zerg players of all time as incentive).
Did Naniwa basically crap all over an entire countries sense of dignity and cultural heritage in regards to respect, protocol, and the importance of keeping face? I would say yes. Does the aforementioned warrant some kind of repercussion? I would say yes again.
I doubt when Koreans attends MLG's or Dreamhacks they're forced to respect and submit to their traditions and culture with an iron fist, just think it's quite hilarious that it should be obvious that non-Koreans should do it in Korea.
On December 14 2011 23:32 AJTeal wrote: It truly saddens me to see what a HUGE step back e-sports has taken today. This is like the reseat that shows that E-sports will NEVER EVER grow into a real sport. So unprofessional banning someone for no reason just to let a player like IdrA in because EG has payed gomTV. And now, everyone suddenly changes their mind (seeing as idra has a huge fanbase, he's got the entire America behind him) and thinks this is a good decision just because IdrA got Naniwa's spot. It's like HuK said. People are always quick to say "this is killing e-sports". I think this is the first time you can legitimately say, this IS killing e-sports. Cheating and unprofessionalism- GomTV right there.
But.... what the hell are you even talking about?!?!
Hahahaha seriously, I'm at a loss.. should I laugh or cry?
Naniwa was considered for Code S, as in not finalized but almost certain.
Naniwa was not in GSL or Code S.
So he did not earn his Code S spot as best non Code S performer at MLG Providence? I'm pretty sure he did, unless GOM will back out of their deal with MLG where that's stated pretty clearly .
On December 14 2011 18:42 Niyanyo wrote: Wow... I was about to purchase a year pass with the new model, but this is just wrong. It was as much or more fault of the tournament as it was for Naniwa. If this goes thru I am not purchasing de pass as protest.
And I'll buy one to make up for it.
GOM chose to do the right thing even though they knew it would be an unpopular decision, good for them. It's not like he's permanently banned from the GSL.
Besides, I'd rather see Sen in Code S than Naniwa anyway, so it doesn't detract from the viewing pleasure at all imo.
How is this the right thing? The punishment is complete disproportionate to the infraction; I honestly think the only ones that find this appropriate must be anti-fans of Naniwa because his actions don't justify the response by gom.
He deserves a warning; and barely deserves it at that compared to all the other "BM" that goes on. I think the last sentence is the real reason you are happy.
No, not at all. He basically trashed everything GOM has done for the past year and acted like a child AGAIN. He's been repeatedly warned for behavior just like this and should have known very well that GOM wouldn't take kindly to anything like this, yet did it again. Yes, it may be a bit harsh, but it's better than letting him go with a warning. GOM has been very lax with the rules and tried to work with the foreign scene as much as possible, yet Naniwa's stunts both discourage GOM from reaching out to the foreign scene and make the foreign scene look like ungrateful and BM trash. I don't care how good he is at Starcraft, the studio is not the place to act like a child.
And no, please don't attempt to put words in my mouth. I'm happy because he deserved to be punished, that's the bottom line. I'm just saying that the quality of games won't really suffer. And at least Sen knows a thing or two about professionalism.
Don't get me wrong - I don't hate Naniwa (although admittedly I've never been a fan) but bm like that when you're supposed to be a foreign representative in a league like GOM is just ridiculous. I hope he manners up in the future (or at least hides it better) and continues to practice as hard as possible, but I doubt it'll happen.
IF you think probe rushing in a game that literally did not count for anything "trashes everything GOM has done for the past year" then i am afraid we will never agree with each other. That is close to the most dramatic characterisation of the events as i have ever heard.
You admit it is harsh; so i agree with you there - but there is no "letting him off with a warning." From Naniwa's interviews you can tell he cares deeply about competition and being the best - if he knew his Code S spot was at risk you can almost bet he would be on his best behaviour - so a warning would go a lot further. It is an over the top reaction from GOM in a situation that just really isn't their place.
Again - Nani probe rushing will have no effect on how GOM reach out to the foreign community. Nobody would have mentioned it again 2 days from now but now there is all this drama. It was never as big of a deal as it has turned into
Dumbest most childish decision ever. I'd rather not watch a game that doesn't have anything riding on it, and besides who honestly gives a shit. Doesn't matter though. Simply will quit watching the GSL. Plenty of other good tournaments around and just let the Koreans be Koreans. Stubborn people.
EPT
Well I guess anyone would defend their fellow countrymen
