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Darpa
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Canada4413 Posts
December 14 2011 01:48 GMT
#61
Its easier to be good at lower levels with Protoss and to a lesser extent zerg, because micro is so much easier with those races.

PVT is an awful matchup below masters.

Zerg seems to be the flavor of the month (Terran was when the game released)


But I think the simple most obvious reasons are two fold: 1. A ton of players played terran at launch, got bored and swithced. 2. You need to be relentlessly aggressive with terran at higher levels. Alot of players dont have the skills to do that and ,like to turtle to macro, which is far more effective for each of the other races. (i.e. you lose alot until you get good at being aggressive).
"losers always whine about their best, Winners go home and fuck the prom queen"
Branch.AUT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Austria853 Posts
December 14 2011 01:50 GMT
#62
Whatt happened, in my oppionion (and I'm trying to formulate this as neutral as possible) is that many a Terran player got high up on the ladder useing builds or strategies that are not as hard to execute and net a lot of wins. This leads to them playing opponents they're not actually supposed to play, if you assume matchmaking gives you an 'equal' opponent. Now when these strategies get figured out, or are 'nerfed to death' you're stuck on a level of
play where your overall mechanics are not up to par and you lose a lot.

As this is really easily perceived as imbalance, and the opportunistoc person switches race to the new in style/op/call-it-what-you-will race. This is in no way limited to Terran and I'm not trying to say 'Terrans are bad', I just know this definately happened to me when warpgate research time was nerfed (I stuck with Protoss though cause I like how all the buildings are gold, and warp-in is really sexy)

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I believe that this is a psychological thing, that ia going to balance itself out in due time. Also don't forget that not everyone switches race, some people just take a break until their perceived 'imbalance' gets fixed.
Mantraz
Profile Joined March 2011
Norway119 Posts
December 14 2011 01:50 GMT
#63
On December 14 2011 10:23 Pirat6662001 wrote:
I stopped playing- Because currently TvP is unplayable for masters. At that level toss has a huge advantage. May be MVP can still win with current nerfs to terran and buffs to toss, but most Terrans in highest 2 leagues outside of Korea are having big problems.


Disclaimer: I play terran
First of all, i believe that at top level, with top micro (especially) the game is pretty close to balanced.

The thing is though, the micro required for terran in all matchups is greater than that of the other races, especially in the terran matchup's (toss has some pretty micro intensive PvZ strats, they're not as dominant in PvT. It just gets downright disheartening to see a fully emp'd army lay waste to yours because zealot micro is quite simply easier (not that toss can help it...) than microing bio against it. Same goes for ling/bling/muta vs marine/tank. If you can't split and focus fire with tanks at the same time, you can't even trade evenly in the higher leagues.

Also zerg is a cool race, thats why its on the rise, FOTM'ers also add to this trend.
Razuik
Profile Joined October 2010
United States409 Posts
December 14 2011 01:50 GMT
#64
Terran (I feel) has a higher potential skill cap (which is why imbalances at the highest level had to be fixed), but Terran's learning curve is also quite high. As a Masters Terran player, I completely understand nerfs that Terran have been given over past patches. The nerfs make it hell for Terrans like me (here in masters), but it also preserves the balance at the highest level of play. Unfortunately, these facts also make Terran a target for imbalance complaints in tournament threads. I have nearly quit Terran multiple times because of how much shit I get on ladder for simply playing Terran (not to mention the threads). Another reason for the decrease in Terran players is the figuring out of their all-ins. When all-ins get figured out, people switch/quit. I have a theory that a majority of the Terran players now either all-in 100% of the time or try to figure out the late game of every MU almost 100% of their games. I am one of those Terrans almost never ever all-ins :D. Just a big "IMO" guys.
woob
Profile Joined November 2010
United Kingdom1322 Posts
December 14 2011 01:51 GMT
#65
im the only terran in the top 25 of my league which has 100 players ^^
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ ez
jonathan1
Profile Joined October 2010
United States395 Posts
December 14 2011 01:51 GMT
#66
I switched to terran last month from zerg and never get TvT in masters.
RastaMonsta
Profile Joined October 2011
304 Posts
December 14 2011 01:51 GMT
#67
while i believe Terran is one of the strongest races when used to its fullest potential, i think that Terran is the hardest race to play at high level and requires the highest apm and multitasking to be very effective. With strong multitasking and micro Terran is really fucking strong
Viciousvx
Profile Joined December 2010
United States83 Posts
December 14 2011 01:52 GMT
#68
lol Higher skill Cap:
When Making Marine, Tank in every matchup doesn't cut it anymore

User was warned for this post
it's Almost too Easy...
Zion9
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Romania347 Posts
December 14 2011 01:52 GMT
#69
On December 14 2011 10:46 Kharnage wrote:
Can someone list the big pile of nerfs that killed terran for me?

The ones i know of:

blue flame damage reduction (-5 damage to light)
rax build time (+5 secs)
emp radius nerf (-0.5 radius)

None of these seem too terrible... are there any others?


Reaper nerf,
Siege tank nerf,
bunker build time
shitting with Thor for patches
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ SlayerS_MMA| Taeja | ThorZain and Naama Fan!!
IMoperator
Profile Joined October 2011
4476 Posts
December 14 2011 01:53 GMT
#70
On December 14 2011 10:50 Razuik wrote:
Terran (I feel) has a higher potential skill cap (which is why imbalances at the highest level had to be fixed), but Terran's learning curve is also quite high. As a Masters Terran player, I completely understand nerfs that Terran have been given over past patches. The nerfs make it hell for Terrans like me (here in masters), but it also preserves the balance at the highest level of play. Unfortunately, these facts also make Terran a target for imbalance complaints in tournament threads. I have nearly quit Terran multiple times because of how much shit I get on ladder for simply playing Terran (not to mention the threads). Another reason for the decrease in Terran players is the figuring out of their all-ins. When all-ins get figured out, people switch/quit. I have a theory that a majority of the Terran players now either all-in 100% of the time or try to figure out the late game of every MU almost 100% of their games. I am one of those Terrans almost never ever all-ins :D. Just a big "IMO" guys.

Just wanted to point out that a "steep learning curve" actually means it's easier to learn. Sorry, it just bugs me lol
Yoshi Kirishima
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States10345 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-14 01:56:08
December 14 2011 01:53 GMT
#71
On December 14 2011 10:46 Kharnage wrote:
Can someone list the big pile of nerfs that killed terran for me?

The ones i know of:

blue flame damage reduction (-5 damage to light)
rax build time (+5 secs)
emp radius nerf (-0.5 radius)

None of these seem too terrible... are there any others?


Those are all quite terrible =O. 5 Seconds is 5 seconds, EMP hits half the units now (need many more ghosts to make up for it, so you have to be much more prepared instead of getting like 2 ghosts only to counter all HTs), BFH makes hellion harass and hellion aggressive openings much weaker

The recent nerfing streak:

Bunker Nerf
Strike Cannon Upgrade Nerf
Thor given Energy back
SCVs take same priority as the unit they are repairing (this was needed, but still a nerf)
Thors' priority is to attack air
Reaper build time nerfed
Reaper speed moved to factory tech
medivac speed nerf
Seeker Missile Nerf

Indirect nerfs:
Warp Prism Shield Buff
Protoss Upgrades cheaper
Charge changed to help zealots chase


Even further back, depot before barracks, concussive and strike cannon needing to be upgraded, Viking ground attack nerf

and i probably missed more


On December 14 2011 10:53 IMoperator wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 14 2011 10:50 Razuik wrote:
Terran (I feel) has a higher potential skill cap (which is why imbalances at the highest level had to be fixed), but Terran's learning curve is also quite high. As a Masters Terran player, I completely understand nerfs that Terran have been given over past patches. The nerfs make it hell for Terrans like me (here in masters), but it also preserves the balance at the highest level of play. Unfortunately, these facts also make Terran a target for imbalance complaints in tournament threads. I have nearly quit Terran multiple times because of how much shit I get on ladder for simply playing Terran (not to mention the threads). Another reason for the decrease in Terran players is the figuring out of their all-ins. When all-ins get figured out, people switch/quit. I have a theory that a majority of the Terran players now either all-in 100% of the time or try to figure out the late game of every MU almost 100% of their games. I am one of those Terrans almost never ever all-ins :D. Just a big "IMO" guys.

Just wanted to point out that a "steep learning curve" actually means it's easier to learn. Sorry, it just bugs me lol


Wow, you're right lol. People need to know this xD didn't realize that, but it makes total sense now. I think it's used incorrectly like everywhere xD
Mid-master streaming MECH ONLY + commentary www.twitch.tv/yoshikirishima +++ "If all-in fails, all-in again."
Luppy1
Profile Joined June 2011
Singapore177 Posts
December 14 2011 01:53 GMT
#72
It's kinda awkward hearing people say zerg is an easier race. Can anyone give reasons for it?

A lot of diamonds-low masters are always claiming that games are extremely hard for them. I feel that's entirely because they didn't have to pick much skills when playing through the lower leagues. For example, those playing zerg would already face this difficulty through the lower leagues if they are lacking severely in their mechanics. But, terrans only face it at diamond, or even low masters. I think the difficulty of terran that everyone is talking about is probably only applicable at the highest level and it doesn't affect diamond- low master terrans at all.
AcrossFiveJulys
Profile Blog Joined September 2005
United States3612 Posts
December 14 2011 01:54 GMT
#73
On December 14 2011 10:46 Kharnage wrote:
Can someone list the big pile of nerfs that killed terran for me?

The ones i know of:

blue flame damage reduction (-5 damage to light)
rax build time (+5 secs)
emp radius nerf (-0.5 radius)

None of these seem too terrible... are there any others?


Since release, the main ones in addition to what you listed have been:

tank nerf
medivac speed decreased
barracks requires depot
bunker build time/salvage nerf
reaper speed double nerf
battlecruiser damage


also, the large number of buffs to zerg and protoss have been indirect nerfs to terran.
lee365
Profile Joined December 2010
United States448 Posts
December 14 2011 01:54 GMT
#74
I'm a Masters T who refuses to switch to any other race because BoxeR still plays T. Only times I think of switching are when people blame their losses on my race and when I see T players getting shit on in other threads/LRs.
Terran Fighting! NoSoupfOu.517
Yoshi Kirishima
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States10345 Posts
December 14 2011 01:56 GMT
#75
On December 14 2011 10:54 lee365 wrote:
I'm a Masters T who refuses to switch to any other race because BoxeR still plays T. Only times I think of switching are when people blame their losses on my race and when I see T players getting shit on in other threads/LRs.


Same here ^_^ (about the boxer part)
Mid-master streaming MECH ONLY + commentary www.twitch.tv/yoshikirishima +++ "If all-in fails, all-in again."
lessQQmorePEWPEW
Profile Joined November 2011
Jamaica921 Posts
December 14 2011 01:57 GMT
#76
The multitude of pathetic nerfs on terran and some surprizing buffs to the other races has probably contributed to this. Some nerfs were perhaps necessary (+30sec on stim), however, most other nerfs are to satisfy the whinings of the the other races.

To see every race buffed while getting nerfed at the same time isn't cool. You could say it is a degree of racial segregation and I say STOP RACISM.
Why drink and drive when you can smoke and fly - Bob Marley
Kharnage
Profile Joined September 2011
Australia920 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-14 02:01:39
December 14 2011 01:57 GMT
#77
On December 14 2011 10:52 Zion9 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 14 2011 10:46 Kharnage wrote:
Can someone list the big pile of nerfs that killed terran for me?

The ones i know of:

blue flame damage reduction (-5 damage to light)
rax build time (+5 secs)
emp radius nerf (-0.5 radius)

None of these seem too terrible... are there any others?


Reaper nerf,
Siege tank nerf,
bunker build time
shitting with Thor for patches


These ones are pretty old though right? It's not like in the months following those 'nerfs' anyone switched race. They are a little like mentioning the supply depot first 'nerf'.

Is the bunker build time 'nerfed' or returned to it's original value now? I've totally lost track of that one.

I guess another question is does anyone think any of those nerfs were unfair or broke the race in some way? At a glance they all look kinda ok. EMP is probably the biggest one but ghosts are still argueably the best unit in the game...

On December 14 2011 10:57 lessQQmorePEWPEW wrote:
The multitude of pathetic nerfs on terran and some surprizing buffs to the other races has probably contributed to this. Some nerfs were perhaps necessary (+30sec on stim), however, most other nerfs are to satisfy the whinings of the the other races.

To see every race buffed while getting nerfed at the same time isn't cool. You could say it is a degree of racial segregation and I say STOP RACISM.


Well, this isn't exactly true. Flux vanes removed, KA removed, blink research time, warp gate research time, it's not like protoss hasn't been hit pretty hard with the nerf bat. Certainly you'd be hard pressed to argue that those nerfs are out weighed by the warp prism buff, immortal range, mothership speed and the slight reduction in cost of upgrades.

Zerg had the infestor buff then debuff and ultralisk build time reduction, spore time burrow reduction and roach range increase off the top of my head. nothing too insane in there.
chipmonklord17
Profile Joined February 2011
United States11944 Posts
December 14 2011 01:58 GMT
#78
Having switched from Terran to Zerg on Thanksgiving I can say personally watching Providence (or whatever tournament was the weekend before that) that I was seeing things in all Zerg's play that are inefficient and I wanted to see if I could get good with zerg and fix those inefficiencies.

That made me switch and I can say I'm really happy I did. I <3 the swarm
chaopow
Profile Joined March 2011
United States556 Posts
December 14 2011 01:58 GMT
#79
Its because of TvP mostly. I'm masters in both Terran and Protoss and PvT is easily my best matchup while TvP is easily my worst. Even though I have all my protoss insight in TvP there is just no way I can win unless I do some sort of cheesy play such as 1-1-1,1 base MMM+ scv push, 3rax or proxy rax. If they are smart it gets too hard to drop since most masters players are capable of adequately defending drops. Also, TvT is just boring as hell sometimes. TvZ is really the only reason I still sometimes play terran.
Soowoo AD.
ReaperX
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Hong Kong1758 Posts
December 14 2011 01:59 GMT
#80
Couple months ago no one played Zerg until they buffed infestors... kinda funny. Now people play protoss after they buffed ugprades. IMO terran is just more boring except for the lower leagues since they started off playign T through campaign
Artosis : Clide. idrA : Shut up.
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