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On December 14 2011 16:22 malaan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 14:37 zanmat0 wrote:
Wow the Terran whinning in this thread is pathetic. If you're going to claim Terran is UP (which is absolutely is not), at least try to provide some evidence. as I said to someone else earlier in the thread - if you dont play terran, refrain from making comments like this because A) its untrue and B) Its unfair. The general theme of the thread is that Terran is not 'under powered' it is just that you have to do much more as Terran than the other races to win. Engagement is far more crucial to Terran than other races which, is in most situations, making Terran too hard to play for most.
And every toss player will tell you that you have to do much more as toss than the other races to win, and every zerg will tell you that you have to do much more as zerg than the other races to win. I'm sorry but just because you say it doesn't make it true, because if it did every race would be OP, UP, broken, the easiest and the hardest all at the same time. Unless you can show concrete proof as to WHY a certain race is harder to play than another, please refrain from making such silly statements, because everyone thinks their race is the hardest to play and the other 2 are the easiest.
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honestly i think it's the stigma against the race. there's still just too many tactics that don't require much response to the opponent.
it should go up once the race becomes the underdog after so much nerfing. due time... due time....
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On December 14 2011 16:20 doko100 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 16:03 BeeNu wrote:On December 14 2011 15:51 doko100 wrote:On December 14 2011 15:46 BeeNu wrote:On December 14 2011 15:31 HikariPrime wrote:On December 14 2011 15:12 BeeNu wrote:
Ok I want to shed some light on perspective of how some races view Terran, I play Zerg at masters and Protoss at about diamond level so far, been playing Protoss a lot more lately because it's a lot more relaxing and "easier" than playing Zerg. You know how there is that stereotype of Zergs being angry all the time? Well it's true, playing Zerg is a good way to give yourself an ulcer.
This is a somewhat long rant but just hear me out and please, correct me if I'm wrong on anything here because I've only been really playing Protoss for a couple weeks.
But look here, I personally hate Terran, I don't necessarily hate Terran players just how the race works in general and I'm hating Terran a fair bit more from the Protoss side rather than the Zerg side. Mostly right now I'm hating Terran because it feels like Bio basically beats every single thing that Protoss has except for Colossus and Storm, and once you do have Coloss or Storm out it's just falls on the Terran's shoulders to properly balance their composition to include Vikings or Ghosts. Idk, I've had too many games so far where I have a bigger army, better econ, better upgrades, yet I lose because the Terran simply has Marines Marauders and Medivacs and I'm left scratching my head as to why a Gateway/Immortal composition still seems to get absolutely crushed and barely scratches his army which seems completely inferior on paper....then I remember "oh right, I didn't have Colossus or Storm which means I auto lose any engagement. Now, I know Chargelots are good, but it seems to me that they can be rather easily beaten by any Terran who turtles behind a wall, similar to how Ultralisks are useless if you actually try to attack into a defense, and they basically don't do a damn thing to Planetary Fortresses meaning Terran can sit back and macro and tech. Here is where it also gets frustrating, if the Terran sits back and maxes then your Chargelots are losing value since a lot of their strength comes from having an armor upgrade advantage, once Terran goes into late game and catches up in upgrades you might as well just have regular old zealots that just melt. On top of all that you got Terran who can just go 1-1-1 if he feels like it and even if I know it's coming and perform a build that supposedly "counters" 1-1-1 those kinds of builds still only seem to have like a 50% chance of actually working.
Maybe I should just be turtling really hard until I max out like I saw somebody else here mention? Cuz quite frankly I can't find any other semi-reliable way to win other than all-inning.
Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Terran is easy to play, their micro and macro is hard but it all feels fundamentally broken and it also feels like it has a much higher level of potential and flexibility. Pretty much any time I get beaten by a Terran I don't end up coming away from the game not thinking "oh wow that guy was good he played really really well" no, I usually end up seeing it was "this was stupid, I had every advantage I could have imagined and they still won because their race is a joke" which isn't how I want to feel, and I've never really felt that way about Protoss or Zerg. I don't want to hold this against Terran players, but at the same time I don't ever really respect any of them either as a result. About the only time I find myself respecting Terran players is when I'm watching them outmaneuver each other in a TvT. Alright i read this post and im thinking if you have played terran yet... I'm master all races and it took me considerable time to get to masters as terran where as zerg i felt comfortable with the amount of time it took for me to get there, i got to masters toss in about a week after placing straight into diamond. You say you have no idea on how to win as toss other than all in or turtle till three base.. well yeah.. thats kind of how everyone plays that race. Terran has the best overall unit design, but to be able to effectively utilize all this requires a great deal amount of multi-tasking greater than the other races imo. Just from my experience this is how i feel. Protoss was relatively easy, Zerg was the mid-ground, and terran was the hardest for me, Terran can be really good ( look at mvp ) you just have to have a really high amount of skill to abuse all the little things terran can do. I like to play Terran mostly though as i try to get better doing these amount of things. Edit: Oh and i hate toss ~_~ only reason i played that race was to prove to my friends it wouldn't take much to get to masters. For months protoss 4 gated in every match-up and won and still do with different variants.Now they either X amount of gate all in or they turtle till max and fully upped and it works for the most part. So im kind of biased against toss. Don't flame ~ Edit #2 : To the OP, on all my accounts ive noticed that the top ten players in my divisions are all protoss/zergs maybe one to two terrans at most. I have played Terran a bit but not all that much. My biggest deterrent to playing Terran is I just hate the time and energy required to play out a TvT match, cuz quite frankly I really just don't enjoy playing mirror matchups at all. Like, I can play a standard PvP pretty well but 80% of the time I just cannon rush because I want it to be over with quickly and there is no real alternative like that which I know of that can be used in TvT. I was originally going to switch from Zerg to Terran but after a few TvT I was just like "fuck this". See, now you say that Protoss just turtles or all-inns every game to win? Idk, maaaaybe, I haven't really had to absolutely rely on that kind of play vs Protoss or Zerg but idk if that's the only way to beat Terran that sounds pretty disheartening to me. Oh please, there is just so much protoss can do against terran. You can go for a macro game, you can go for 1 base all-ins, 2 base all-ins. You can go gateway/collossus, zealot/archon, lategame you can go archon, zealot, stalker, collossus, archon, HT and the terran can either 1/1/1 or go pure bio EVERY GAME. Terran has like 2 options in TvP, all-in or play a macro game with the same unit composition every game, you think protoss is disheartening to play in TvP? Try terran. Yes, I am aware Terran only has like 1-1-1 all-in or just Bio Bio Bio and it isn't particularly fun, but both of those things are also incredibly strong and everything Protoss does is just trying to figure out how to deal with those 2 things. So basically in the TvP matchup you're just seeing 1-1-1 and Bio every game every time and I find it ridiculous because I don't think those options should be as strong as they are and Terran should be able to and be required to use a broader array of units and strategies. This is kinda what I meant by saying I feel Terran is fundamentally flawed. I hope that helps clear that up a bit. And like I said before I was playing Terran for a while before I started playing Protoss and it felt kinda stupid. It's like, ok, all I gotta do is make Bio and have good macro and I can crush pretty much everything the Protoss throws at me as long as I do a minimal amount of scouting and know when to add in some Vikings or Ghosts. Dude are you serious? TvP is heavily Protoss favored outside of pro level play, in diamond/masters TvP is like a protoss win-fest. How does Protoss deal with 1-1-1 and Bio? 1-1-1 has been figured out weeks ago, it's not even the build that is good anymore it's pretty much only effective if the protoss doesn't scout and counter it accordingly. Second of all, Bio is too strong? I hope you realize that controlling a bio army is about 3 times harder than controlling a protoss deathball, that's part of the reason why protoss is dominating terran in the leagues below grandmaster so hard. And terran should use other builds? Hang on a second buddy, we tried, we incorporated Thors into our bio armies, wanna know what happened? Oh yes, they immediately got nerfed by Blizzard. Don't blame it on terran player that we can't use anything else but Bio? Do you think it's fun for us to fight an uphill battle with weaker units and no splash against an army with alot of splash damage that is easier to control? No it isn't, but it's the only option. And you can crush pretty much everything the Protoss throws at you with bio? You have to be kidding, again Protoss is heavily favored in TvP, how can you come to the conclusion that it's easier for the terran at all. Terran has less effective builds and options in TvP compared to Protoss, so what exactly is your problem? You are complaining that Protoss only has 20 different options in TvP, whilst Terran has like what 2 or 3? Please just stop.
I feel like you didn't even read what I said and just wrote. :/
I didn't say Terran should try using other builds, I said Terran should be given more options in TvP and Bio itself shouldn't be so absolute. People have "figured out" 1-1-1? lol ok. That's news to me...and pretty much everybody since last time I checked everybody from progamers to common gamers still get wrecked by it rather consistently.
Your little comment of "just stop" pretty much just reinforces the vibe I get that you're just an incredibly biased and angry Terran player looking for an excuse to QQ about your race. Try carrying a constructive discussion next time instead of taking it so personally and acting like someone just stomped on your dog's head.
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Well, I'm another that has switched from Terran to Zerg. Or rather, I just felt the urge to play SC2 again after some months of thinking I'd quit completely. As of now I've only played zerg in team games a lot, but when the new season hits (and my MMR apparently resets after not playing at all this season), I plan on hitting the ladder.
I don't think it's a blance issue, per se. Hell, I had like 35% win rate against Protoss at the height of "Terran op". I just made up for it by TvT and TvZ. I'm just a bit bored with terran. I want to try out zerg, the mobile, macro play style.
Also, I love creep spread and injects!
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On December 14 2011 16:30 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 16:20 doko100 wrote:On December 14 2011 16:03 BeeNu wrote:On December 14 2011 15:51 doko100 wrote:On December 14 2011 15:46 BeeNu wrote:On December 14 2011 15:31 HikariPrime wrote:On December 14 2011 15:12 BeeNu wrote:
Ok I want to shed some light on perspective of how some races view Terran, I play Zerg at masters and Protoss at about diamond level so far, been playing Protoss a lot more lately because it's a lot more relaxing and "easier" than playing Zerg. You know how there is that stereotype of Zergs being angry all the time? Well it's true, playing Zerg is a good way to give yourself an ulcer.
This is a somewhat long rant but just hear me out and please, correct me if I'm wrong on anything here because I've only been really playing Protoss for a couple weeks.
But look here, I personally hate Terran, I don't necessarily hate Terran players just how the race works in general and I'm hating Terran a fair bit more from the Protoss side rather than the Zerg side. Mostly right now I'm hating Terran because it feels like Bio basically beats every single thing that Protoss has except for Colossus and Storm, and once you do have Coloss or Storm out it's just falls on the Terran's shoulders to properly balance their composition to include Vikings or Ghosts. Idk, I've had too many games so far where I have a bigger army, better econ, better upgrades, yet I lose because the Terran simply has Marines Marauders and Medivacs and I'm left scratching my head as to why a Gateway/Immortal composition still seems to get absolutely crushed and barely scratches his army which seems completely inferior on paper....then I remember "oh right, I didn't have Colossus or Storm which means I auto lose any engagement. Now, I know Chargelots are good, but it seems to me that they can be rather easily beaten by any Terran who turtles behind a wall, similar to how Ultralisks are useless if you actually try to attack into a defense, and they basically don't do a damn thing to Planetary Fortresses meaning Terran can sit back and macro and tech. Here is where it also gets frustrating, if the Terran sits back and maxes then your Chargelots are losing value since a lot of their strength comes from having an armor upgrade advantage, once Terran goes into late game and catches up in upgrades you might as well just have regular old zealots that just melt. On top of all that you got Terran who can just go 1-1-1 if he feels like it and even if I know it's coming and perform a build that supposedly "counters" 1-1-1 those kinds of builds still only seem to have like a 50% chance of actually working.
Maybe I should just be turtling really hard until I max out like I saw somebody else here mention? Cuz quite frankly I can't find any other semi-reliable way to win other than all-inning.
Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Terran is easy to play, their micro and macro is hard but it all feels fundamentally broken and it also feels like it has a much higher level of potential and flexibility. Pretty much any time I get beaten by a Terran I don't end up coming away from the game not thinking "oh wow that guy was good he played really really well" no, I usually end up seeing it was "this was stupid, I had every advantage I could have imagined and they still won because their race is a joke" which isn't how I want to feel, and I've never really felt that way about Protoss or Zerg. I don't want to hold this against Terran players, but at the same time I don't ever really respect any of them either as a result. About the only time I find myself respecting Terran players is when I'm watching them outmaneuver each other in a TvT. Alright i read this post and im thinking if you have played terran yet... I'm master all races and it took me considerable time to get to masters as terran where as zerg i felt comfortable with the amount of time it took for me to get there, i got to masters toss in about a week after placing straight into diamond. You say you have no idea on how to win as toss other than all in or turtle till three base.. well yeah.. thats kind of how everyone plays that race. Terran has the best overall unit design, but to be able to effectively utilize all this requires a great deal amount of multi-tasking greater than the other races imo. Just from my experience this is how i feel. Protoss was relatively easy, Zerg was the mid-ground, and terran was the hardest for me, Terran can be really good ( look at mvp ) you just have to have a really high amount of skill to abuse all the little things terran can do. I like to play Terran mostly though as i try to get better doing these amount of things. Edit: Oh and i hate toss ~_~ only reason i played that race was to prove to my friends it wouldn't take much to get to masters. For months protoss 4 gated in every match-up and won and still do with different variants.Now they either X amount of gate all in or they turtle till max and fully upped and it works for the most part. So im kind of biased against toss. Don't flame ~ Edit #2 : To the OP, on all my accounts ive noticed that the top ten players in my divisions are all protoss/zergs maybe one to two terrans at most. I have played Terran a bit but not all that much. My biggest deterrent to playing Terran is I just hate the time and energy required to play out a TvT match, cuz quite frankly I really just don't enjoy playing mirror matchups at all. Like, I can play a standard PvP pretty well but 80% of the time I just cannon rush because I want it to be over with quickly and there is no real alternative like that which I know of that can be used in TvT. I was originally going to switch from Zerg to Terran but after a few TvT I was just like "fuck this". See, now you say that Protoss just turtles or all-inns every game to win? Idk, maaaaybe, I haven't really had to absolutely rely on that kind of play vs Protoss or Zerg but idk if that's the only way to beat Terran that sounds pretty disheartening to me. Oh please, there is just so much protoss can do against terran. You can go for a macro game, you can go for 1 base all-ins, 2 base all-ins. You can go gateway/collossus, zealot/archon, lategame you can go archon, zealot, stalker, collossus, archon, HT and the terran can either 1/1/1 or go pure bio EVERY GAME. Terran has like 2 options in TvP, all-in or play a macro game with the same unit composition every game, you think protoss is disheartening to play in TvP? Try terran. Yes, I am aware Terran only has like 1-1-1 all-in or just Bio Bio Bio and it isn't particularly fun, but both of those things are also incredibly strong and everything Protoss does is just trying to figure out how to deal with those 2 things. So basically in the TvP matchup you're just seeing 1-1-1 and Bio every game every time and I find it ridiculous because I don't think those options should be as strong as they are and Terran should be able to and be required to use a broader array of units and strategies. This is kinda what I meant by saying I feel Terran is fundamentally flawed. I hope that helps clear that up a bit. And like I said before I was playing Terran for a while before I started playing Protoss and it felt kinda stupid. It's like, ok, all I gotta do is make Bio and have good macro and I can crush pretty much everything the Protoss throws at me as long as I do a minimal amount of scouting and know when to add in some Vikings or Ghosts. Dude are you serious? TvP is heavily Protoss favored outside of pro level play, in diamond/masters TvP is like a protoss win-fest. How does Protoss deal with 1-1-1 and Bio? 1-1-1 has been figured out weeks ago, it's not even the build that is good anymore it's pretty much only effective if the protoss doesn't scout and counter it accordingly. Second of all, Bio is too strong? I hope you realize that controlling a bio army is about 3 times harder than controlling a protoss deathball, that's part of the reason why protoss is dominating terran in the leagues below grandmaster so hard. And terran should use other builds? Hang on a second buddy, we tried, we incorporated Thors into our bio armies, wanna know what happened? Oh yes, they immediately got nerfed by Blizzard. Don't blame it on terran player that we can't use anything else but Bio? Do you think it's fun for us to fight an uphill battle with weaker units and no splash against an army with alot of splash damage that is easier to control? No it isn't, but it's the only option. And you can crush pretty much everything the Protoss throws at you with bio? You have to be kidding, again Protoss is heavily favored in TvP, how can you come to the conclusion that it's easier for the terran at all. Terran has less effective builds and options in TvP compared to Protoss, so what exactly is your problem? You are complaining that Protoss only has 20 different options in TvP, whilst Terran has like what 2 or 3? Please just stop. I feel like you didn't even read what I said and just wrote. :/ I didn't say Terran should try using other builds, I said Terran should be given more options in TvP and Bio itself shouldn't be so absolute. People have "figured out" 1-1-1? lol ok. That's news to me...and pretty much everybody since last time I checked everybody from progamers to common gamers still get wrecked by it rather consistently. Your little comment of "just stop" pretty much just reinforces the vibe I get that you're just an incredibly biased and angry Terran player looking for an excuse to QQ about your race. Try carrying a constructive discussion next time instead of taking it so personally and acting like someone just stomped on your dog's head.
So after we have established the fact that TvP is protoss favored outside of GM you just resort to a random ad hominem attack? Ok, I'm done with you. As a zerg player you shouldn't even have an opinion about TvP in the first place. Terrans don't talk about PvZ either, simply because our understanding of the matchup isn't high enough. All my points were logical and true, you can choose to ignore all my points I have made about viability of different builds and just claim that I am 'mad. But it doesn't make it any less true.
On December 14 2011 16:29 hunts wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 16:22 malaan wrote:On December 14 2011 14:37 zanmat0 wrote:
Wow the Terran whinning in this thread is pathetic. If you're going to claim Terran is UP (which is absolutely is not), at least try to provide some evidence. as I said to someone else earlier in the thread - if you dont play terran, refrain from making comments like this because A) its untrue and B) Its unfair. The general theme of the thread is that Terran is not 'under powered' it is just that you have to do much more as Terran than the other races to win. Engagement is far more crucial to Terran than other races which, is in most situations, making Terran too hard to play for most. And every toss player will tell you that you have to do much more as toss than the other races to win, and every zerg will tell you that you have to do much more as zerg than the other races to win. I'm sorry but just because you say it doesn't make it true, because if it did every race would be OP, UP, broken, the easiest and the hardest all at the same time. Unless you can show concrete proof as to WHY a certain race is harder to play than another, please refrain from making such silly statements, because everyone thinks their race is the hardest to play and the other 2 are the easiest.
I have never heard a protoss player claim that their race is the mechanically most demanding. It's actually universally accepted that protoss is the one race you can play at higher levels (diamond, masters) with really bad mechanics. What's most important as protoss is mimicing builds, but that's not exactly what I would classify as hard to play.
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"Where is the Marine and the rauder? Where is the Medevac that was flying? They have passed like rain on the mountain... Like wind in the meadow. The days have come down in the west, behind the hills... Into shadow."
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*Terran is by far the most micro-intensive race - > you will lose many fights easily if you don't micro and position correctly
*Weakest late-game
*Production is very annoying, you have to worry about constantly producing units and managing addons, Zerg just selects larva and Protoss insta-warp in anywhere -> also means you can't float money like Protoss and Zerg
*Very fragile units - > low hp, high damage, so once again goes back to requiring a lot of micro
*Tons of nerfs
*Hardest race to master
Just some stuff off the top of my head.
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In my experience, Terran feels like it takes more mechanical skill than the other races, as well as more knowledge of build orders and strategies. This is at like a platinum-ish level though, so I'm sure all the races are equally difficult at higher leagues.
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On December 14 2011 10:25 Dfgj wrote:
I played 30~ ladder games over the last few days and got 20+ Zs, 2 or 3 Ts. Pretty weird.
normal, in 10 games per day i have 7 zvz and 3 zvp/zvt
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This is my second season as a diamond terran...and I'm going through hell. I started as bronze and I always felt like I was making consisten progress (always moving up the ranks until I made it to the next league). Now, I have struggled to stay in top 25 for 2 complete seasons (sometimes I fall back to top 100). I can tell you, it is quite frustrating...so it makes sense to move to other races. However...there is nothing better than outplaying a zerg or a protoss as terran. You need awesome macro, micro, and multitasking. Even if I lose a lot, I love the few times when I win 
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What's stopping me from playing that much is TvT mostly, that matchup just seems to drain all your energy. Another thing is TvZ feeling really tough to deal with at diamond level especially if you try to play a macrogame.
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On December 14 2011 16:40 Scila wrote:
*Terran is by far the most micro-intensive race - > you will lose many fights easily if you don't micro and position correctly
*Weakest late-game
*Production is very annoying, you have to worry about constantly producing units and managing addons, Zerg just selects larva and Protoss insta-warp in anywhere -> also means you can't float money like Protoss and Zerg
*Very fragile units - > low hp, high damage, so once again goes back to requiring a lot of micro
*Tons of nerfs
*Hardest race to master
Just some stuff off the top of my head.
Now that's a bit gratuitous. My turn:
*Protoss is by far the most micro-intensive race - > you will lose many fights easily if you don't micro and position correctly
*Weakest late-game
*Production is very annoying, you have to worry about constantly producing units and looking away to warp in in pylon range, Zerg just selects larva and Terran insta-queue and drop orbitals anywhere -> also means you can't float money like Terran and Zerg
*Very clumsy units - > low damage, high hp, so once again goes back to requiring a lot of micro
*Tons of nerfs
*Hardest race to master
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On December 14 2011 10:14 oniman999 wrote:
Part of it is the nerfs. Terran receives a nerf just about every patch. Many of these nerfs are necessary, but it is disheartening when every patch the other guys get better and your race gets worse. It's a psychological thing I think.
Now you know how it's felt to be Protoss for the past year.
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The two reasons I think Terran are going away is the match-up TvT constitanly being the longest one and all the nerfs. When people ladder they don't wanna play a 35min TvT chess game. They wanna play a larger number of games against many people on different maps.
Blizzard released Terran at a state of way over-poweredness. Every single patch to date has contained (and rightly so IMO) a Terran nerf. This is disheartening to a player. The only buff ever given to Terran? BC speed boost. Also disheartening to players
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On December 14 2011 16:45 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 16:40 Scila wrote:
*Terran is by far the most micro-intensive race - > you will lose many fights easily if you don't micro and position correctly
*Weakest late-game
*Production is very annoying, you have to worry about constantly producing units and managing addons, Zerg just selects larva and Protoss insta-warp in anywhere -> also means you can't float money like Protoss and Zerg
*Very fragile units - > low hp, high damage, so once again goes back to requiring a lot of micro
*Tons of nerfs
*Hardest race to master
Just some stuff off the top of my head. Now that's a bit gratuitous. My turn: *Protoss is by far the most micro-intensive race - > you will lose many fights easily if you don't micro and position correctly *Weakest late-game *Production is very annoying, you have to worry about constantly producing units and looking away to warp in in pylon range, Zerg just selects larva and Terran insta-queue and drop orbitals anywhere -> also means you can't float money like Terran and Zerg *Very clumsy units - > low damage, high hp, so once again goes back to requiring a lot of micro *Tons of nerfs *Hardest race to master
1. Protoss is not the most micro-intensive race. Terran has to use more control groups and kite all battle, whilst splitting and dodging storms, everything protoss has to do are 1 click actions such as casting forcefields or casting storms and positioning your army correctly is NOT micro-intensive, it's something you can easily to pre-battle. Terran however has to do all the micro before and during the battle and the only 1 click action is casting emp.
2. Protoss doesn't have the wekest lategame, don't even know what to say about that.
3. Production is more fogiving as Protoss though, especially because all the cooldowns on gateways are simultaneous. Teran unit production however suffers from different build times of units, so it's very easy to miss a queue, especially when having to micro alot.
4. That doesn't even make sense, very clumsy and high HP units actually result in requiring less apm, not more.
5. Not even close to as many nerfs as terran, but alot more buffs
6. LOL, completely baseless thing to say.
And why does everyone ignore the fact that Protoss is heavily favored in pvt outside of GM? Just wondering, is it inconvenient?
On December 14 2011 16:52 sebusca wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 10:14 oniman999 wrote:
Part of it is the nerfs. Terran receives a nerf just about every patch. Many of these nerfs are necessary, but it is disheartening when every patch the other guys get better and your race gets worse. It's a psychological thing I think. Now you know how it's felt to be Protoss for the past year.
Terran has been nerfed alot more and received only a few buffs to units that are essentially still useless. So your point doesn't make any sense at all.
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Well, as a terran player, it kinda feel wrong that no one is winning with Terran if they don't have a 3 capital letters nickname starting with an M.
It's really hard to copy high level terran too when you are between plat and low master ( where most of the players on TL are ) because it's less about the builds and more the execution.
Like, if a Zerg player in Diamond try to copy Nestea, it will probably be easier than a Diamond Terran trying to be MVP. :/
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On December 14 2011 16:34 doko100 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 16:30 BeeNu wrote:On December 14 2011 16:20 doko100 wrote:On December 14 2011 16:03 BeeNu wrote:On December 14 2011 15:51 doko100 wrote:On December 14 2011 15:46 BeeNu wrote:On December 14 2011 15:31 HikariPrime wrote:On December 14 2011 15:12 BeeNu wrote:
Ok I want to shed some light on perspective of how some races view Terran, I play Zerg at masters and Protoss at about diamond level so far, been playing Protoss a lot more lately because it's a lot more relaxing and "easier" than playing Zerg. You know how there is that stereotype of Zergs being angry all the time? Well it's true, playing Zerg is a good way to give yourself an ulcer.
This is a somewhat long rant but just hear me out and please, correct me if I'm wrong on anything here because I've only been really playing Protoss for a couple weeks.
But look here, I personally hate Terran, I don't necessarily hate Terran players just how the race works in general and I'm hating Terran a fair bit more from the Protoss side rather than the Zerg side. Mostly right now I'm hating Terran because it feels like Bio basically beats every single thing that Protoss has except for Colossus and Storm, and once you do have Coloss or Storm out it's just falls on the Terran's shoulders to properly balance their composition to include Vikings or Ghosts. Idk, I've had too many games so far where I have a bigger army, better econ, better upgrades, yet I lose because the Terran simply has Marines Marauders and Medivacs and I'm left scratching my head as to why a Gateway/Immortal composition still seems to get absolutely crushed and barely scratches his army which seems completely inferior on paper....then I remember "oh right, I didn't have Colossus or Storm which means I auto lose any engagement. Now, I know Chargelots are good, but it seems to me that they can be rather easily beaten by any Terran who turtles behind a wall, similar to how Ultralisks are useless if you actually try to attack into a defense, and they basically don't do a damn thing to Planetary Fortresses meaning Terran can sit back and macro and tech. Here is where it also gets frustrating, if the Terran sits back and maxes then your Chargelots are losing value since a lot of their strength comes from having an armor upgrade advantage, once Terran goes into late game and catches up in upgrades you might as well just have regular old zealots that just melt. On top of all that you got Terran who can just go 1-1-1 if he feels like it and even if I know it's coming and perform a build that supposedly "counters" 1-1-1 those kinds of builds still only seem to have like a 50% chance of actually working.
Maybe I should just be turtling really hard until I max out like I saw somebody else here mention? Cuz quite frankly I can't find any other semi-reliable way to win other than all-inning.
Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Terran is easy to play, their micro and macro is hard but it all feels fundamentally broken and it also feels like it has a much higher level of potential and flexibility. Pretty much any time I get beaten by a Terran I don't end up coming away from the game not thinking "oh wow that guy was good he played really really well" no, I usually end up seeing it was "this was stupid, I had every advantage I could have imagined and they still won because their race is a joke" which isn't how I want to feel, and I've never really felt that way about Protoss or Zerg. I don't want to hold this against Terran players, but at the same time I don't ever really respect any of them either as a result. About the only time I find myself respecting Terran players is when I'm watching them outmaneuver each other in a TvT. Alright i read this post and im thinking if you have played terran yet... I'm master all races and it took me considerable time to get to masters as terran where as zerg i felt comfortable with the amount of time it took for me to get there, i got to masters toss in about a week after placing straight into diamond. You say you have no idea on how to win as toss other than all in or turtle till three base.. well yeah.. thats kind of how everyone plays that race. Terran has the best overall unit design, but to be able to effectively utilize all this requires a great deal amount of multi-tasking greater than the other races imo. Just from my experience this is how i feel. Protoss was relatively easy, Zerg was the mid-ground, and terran was the hardest for me, Terran can be really good ( look at mvp ) you just have to have a really high amount of skill to abuse all the little things terran can do. I like to play Terran mostly though as i try to get better doing these amount of things. Edit: Oh and i hate toss ~_~ only reason i played that race was to prove to my friends it wouldn't take much to get to masters. For months protoss 4 gated in every match-up and won and still do with different variants.Now they either X amount of gate all in or they turtle till max and fully upped and it works for the most part. So im kind of biased against toss. Don't flame ~ Edit #2 : To the OP, on all my accounts ive noticed that the top ten players in my divisions are all protoss/zergs maybe one to two terrans at most. I have played Terran a bit but not all that much. My biggest deterrent to playing Terran is I just hate the time and energy required to play out a TvT match, cuz quite frankly I really just don't enjoy playing mirror matchups at all. Like, I can play a standard PvP pretty well but 80% of the time I just cannon rush because I want it to be over with quickly and there is no real alternative like that which I know of that can be used in TvT. I was originally going to switch from Zerg to Terran but after a few TvT I was just like "fuck this". See, now you say that Protoss just turtles or all-inns every game to win? Idk, maaaaybe, I haven't really had to absolutely rely on that kind of play vs Protoss or Zerg but idk if that's the only way to beat Terran that sounds pretty disheartening to me. Oh please, there is just so much protoss can do against terran. You can go for a macro game, you can go for 1 base all-ins, 2 base all-ins. You can go gateway/collossus, zealot/archon, lategame you can go archon, zealot, stalker, collossus, archon, HT and the terran can either 1/1/1 or go pure bio EVERY GAME. Terran has like 2 options in TvP, all-in or play a macro game with the same unit composition every game, you think protoss is disheartening to play in TvP? Try terran. Yes, I am aware Terran only has like 1-1-1 all-in or just Bio Bio Bio and it isn't particularly fun, but both of those things are also incredibly strong and everything Protoss does is just trying to figure out how to deal with those 2 things. So basically in the TvP matchup you're just seeing 1-1-1 and Bio every game every time and I find it ridiculous because I don't think those options should be as strong as they are and Terran should be able to and be required to use a broader array of units and strategies. This is kinda what I meant by saying I feel Terran is fundamentally flawed. I hope that helps clear that up a bit. And like I said before I was playing Terran for a while before I started playing Protoss and it felt kinda stupid. It's like, ok, all I gotta do is make Bio and have good macro and I can crush pretty much everything the Protoss throws at me as long as I do a minimal amount of scouting and know when to add in some Vikings or Ghosts. Dude are you serious? TvP is heavily Protoss favored outside of pro level play, in diamond/masters TvP is like a protoss win-fest. How does Protoss deal with 1-1-1 and Bio? 1-1-1 has been figured out weeks ago, it's not even the build that is good anymore it's pretty much only effective if the protoss doesn't scout and counter it accordingly. Second of all, Bio is too strong? I hope you realize that controlling a bio army is about 3 times harder than controlling a protoss deathball, that's part of the reason why protoss is dominating terran in the leagues below grandmaster so hard. And terran should use other builds? Hang on a second buddy, we tried, we incorporated Thors into our bio armies, wanna know what happened? Oh yes, they immediately got nerfed by Blizzard. Don't blame it on terran player that we can't use anything else but Bio? Do you think it's fun for us to fight an uphill battle with weaker units and no splash against an army with alot of splash damage that is easier to control? No it isn't, but it's the only option. And you can crush pretty much everything the Protoss throws at you with bio? You have to be kidding, again Protoss is heavily favored in TvP, how can you come to the conclusion that it's easier for the terran at all. Terran has less effective builds and options in TvP compared to Protoss, so what exactly is your problem? You are complaining that Protoss only has 20 different options in TvP, whilst Terran has like what 2 or 3? Please just stop. I feel like you didn't even read what I said and just wrote. :/ I didn't say Terran should try using other builds, I said Terran should be given more options in TvP and Bio itself shouldn't be so absolute. People have "figured out" 1-1-1? lol ok. That's news to me...and pretty much everybody since last time I checked everybody from progamers to common gamers still get wrecked by it rather consistently. Your little comment of "just stop" pretty much just reinforces the vibe I get that you're just an incredibly biased and angry Terran player looking for an excuse to QQ about your race. Try carrying a constructive discussion next time instead of taking it so personally and acting like someone just stomped on your dog's head. So after we have established the fact that TvP is protoss favored outside of GM you just resort to a random ad hominem attack? Ok, I'm done with you. As a zerg player you shouldn't even have an opinion about TvP in the first place. Terrans don't talk about PvZ either, simply because our understanding of the matchup isn't high enough. All my points were logical and true, you can choose to ignore all my points I have made about viability of different builds and just claim that I am 'mad. But it doesn't make it any less true. Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 16:29 hunts wrote:On December 14 2011 16:22 malaan wrote:On December 14 2011 14:37 zanmat0 wrote:
Wow the Terran whinning in this thread is pathetic. If you're going to claim Terran is UP (which is absolutely is not), at least try to provide some evidence. as I said to someone else earlier in the thread - if you dont play terran, refrain from making comments like this because A) its untrue and B) Its unfair. The general theme of the thread is that Terran is not 'under powered' it is just that you have to do much more as Terran than the other races to win. Engagement is far more crucial to Terran than other races which, is in most situations, making Terran too hard to play for most. And every toss player will tell you that you have to do much more as toss than the other races to win, and every zerg will tell you that you have to do much more as zerg than the other races to win. I'm sorry but just because you say it doesn't make it true, because if it did every race would be OP, UP, broken, the easiest and the hardest all at the same time. Unless you can show concrete proof as to WHY a certain race is harder to play than another, please refrain from making such silly statements, because everyone thinks their race is the hardest to play and the other 2 are the easiest. I have never heard a protoss player claim that their race is the mechanically most demanding. It's actually universally accepted that protoss is the one race you can play at higher levels (diamond, masters) with really bad mechanics. What's most important as protoss is mimicing builds, but that's not exactly what I would classify as hard to play.
You don't even need to mimic builds lol.. Just build a bunch of stuff. Gateways like 6-8 and get 2 techs. Any random combination of protoss units will smash PvT.
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On December 14 2011 16:56 Noocta wrote:
Well, as a terran player, it kinda feel wrong that no one is winning with Terran if they don't have a 3 capital letters nickname starting with an M.
It's really hard to copy high level terran too when you are between plat and low master ( where most of the players on TL are ) because it's less about the builds and more the execution.
Like, if a Zerg player in Diamond try to copy Nestea, it will probably be easier than a Diamond Terran trying to be MVP. :/
Zerg is more game sense than anything.
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On December 14 2011 16:56 Noocta wrote:
Well, as a terran player, it kinda feel wrong that no one is winning with Terran if they don't have a 3 capital letters nickname starting with an M.
It's really hard to copy high level terran too when you are between plat and low master ( where most of the players on TL are ) because it's less about the builds and more the execution.
Like, if a Zerg player in Diamond try to copy Nestea, it will probably be easier than a Diamond Terran trying to be MVP. :/
so jjakji changed his name to Mjjakji?
Also sorry but a diamond zerg trying to copy nestea would fail extremely miserable because a lot of nesteas play relies on making less units than needed and having absolutely godly unit control, and a godly gamesense with amazing decision making, as zerg you cannot copy builds like you can as terran and protoss.
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Terran is the hardest race to master imo.
I mean look at TvZ, Terran has to absolutely micro their ass off to avoid the banes, while zerg is on attack move. The foreign Terran scene is also very weak, only the top terrans come from Korea.
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