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On December 14 2011 17:22 eYeball wrote:
I am orginially a protoss player but a week or two ago I tried playing Terran, it wasn't so hard at least not bioplay. TvP was a piece of cake since I knew mostly what builds are good and what not, destroying them early game with all-ins is not that hard. Only matchup I felt was somewhat hard would be TvZ. But I think Bio play is really easy to play also compared to mech, which seems very hard tbh. Maybe it will become more available in HotS.
Well if you can win TvP with early bio pushes you can't be in a very high league with terran. In masters that shit simply doesn't work at all. Not even trying to offend you or anything, just saying that 1 base or 2 base bio pushes are actually really ineffective vs. protoss thanks to forcefields and the trend to go early collossus tech (where you need vikings, which again take time).
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the biggest thing is imo:
terran needs to be the one stressing the opponent and this will put the terran under stress, because he knows he has do to something.
if u dont do it u have to fight against super macro zerg mode, whith broodlord/infestor/baneling, something only terrans that have very good control of their army and economy can pull off.
and once the zerg has alot of eco its almost impossible to come back.
or u have to fight against deathball protoss, with colossus that are strong alone, but with combination of storm things can get really ugly if u dont have very good army control.
protoss basically only needs to a click if he has colossus and u dont stand right.
this can be very disappointing for the terrans because in most games u don't feel u did anything less than the opponent, but u still lose.
i also noticed a lot less tvt in the last month~
a lot less.
like 10% or something.
and the problem is that with hots things won't get better.
the new terran units are by far the most boring ones out of the new.
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On December 14 2011 17:09 ZenithM wrote:
That was precisely my point. I'm not really thinking what I wrote, it was sarcasm. It's just that what you said was precisely baseless.
I'm sure I use probably more control groups than you and I play Protoss, (I'm basically using all 10 of them, with 4 for my units, hard to top that), don't generalize too quickly based on your being forced to, oh the horror, use one control group for ghosts.
Before EMP nerf, going to lategame against Terran 3/3 bio with carpet EMP felt like suicide. It still feel like suicide against Zerg. Those broodlords man, they're strong, and you know it, being Terran ;D
Just pointing out, not arguing any of your other points: The number of control groups doesn't mean anything. Some terrans use 1 control group for rax, facts, and ports, while other terrans use 3 separate hotkeys.
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Atleast at the diamond level, terran is really boring and hard. Every build just seems the same... and if you don't macro well then you just lose.
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Last 16 games, only played P and Z.
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with other races you can just camp on ass macroing + wait for your powerful and relative easy to use high tech units, if you do this with terran you are fucked
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Awesome! Might start playing again, never liked TvT despite it being the only match-up I had a winning % in.
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It sounds like the terran players think the onus of having to harass makes terran harder, while the protoss and zerg players think the variety of harass options make terran easier.
Interesting dynamic
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On December 14 2011 17:36 phiinix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 17:09 ZenithM wrote:
That was precisely my point. I'm not really thinking what I wrote, it was sarcasm. It's just that what you said was precisely baseless.
I'm sure I use probably more control groups than you and I play Protoss, (I'm basically using all 10 of them, with 4 for my units, hard to top that), don't generalize too quickly based on your being forced to, oh the horror, use one control group for ghosts.
Before EMP nerf, going to lategame against Terran 3/3 bio with carpet EMP felt like suicide. It still feel like suicide against Zerg. Those broodlords man, they're strong, and you know it, being Terran ;D
Just pointing out, not arguing any of your other points: The number of control groups doesn't mean anything. Some terrans use 1 control group for rax, facts, and ports, while other terrans use 3 separate hotkeys.
Yeah I know. In fact apparently the consensus among pro korean Terrans is to have 1 single control group to find your army/harass units quickly by double tapping and micro with the amazing mouse speed and precision they have. They actually have litterally only an extra control group for ghosts :D (MVP at least does it like that).
And as you said, some (MMA, MKP) have one hotkey for all their production and others (MVP, Bomber, fOrGG) have 3 separate.
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GM is even, master is like 33% P 30% T 33% Z ... pretty even.
Other leagues are irrelevant to talk about at all from a "skill needed" point of view since 99% of the player there are simply bad or they don't put in the minimum amount of time needed to be mechanically good enough to do basic things such as constant worker production/being able to execute an opening close to perfect..etc.
Terran still has the highest win ratio in both master and grand master.
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On December 14 2011 17:33 doko100 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 17:22 eYeball wrote:
I am orginially a protoss player but a week or two ago I tried playing Terran, it wasn't so hard at least not bioplay. TvP was a piece of cake since I knew mostly what builds are good and what not, destroying them early game with all-ins is not that hard. Only matchup I felt was somewhat hard would be TvZ. But I think Bio play is really easy to play also compared to mech, which seems very hard tbh. Maybe it will become more available in HotS. Well if you can win TvP with early bio pushes you can't be in a very high league with terran. In masters that shit simply doesn't work at all. Not even trying to offend you or anything, just saying that 1 base or 2 base bio pushes are actually really ineffective vs. protoss thanks to forcefields and the trend to go early collossus tech (where you need vikings, which again take time).
TvP is actually weird at lower level.
a good 20% of my TvP are just me early expanding into poking whe the 2 first medivac are out ( with stim and shield ) and Toss was doing something silly and just die as you run in.
Then there's the other part where someone cheese, and then the ones where you can't do anything to them at all as they turtle with Colossi then go for chargealots.
Dozens of them. TT
Also It's been really frustrating to play against ultrafast upgrades Z or P as T too. Because T need to spend quite the gas on infantry techlab upgrades, and medivac often before going for upgrades, while zerg can just use their second or third 100 gas on +1 melee, and toss can chrono 3/0/3 like before 20min.
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![[image loading]](http://chzmemebase.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/alienssquare.jpg)
User was warned for this post
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TvP is hard and at times frustrating. Large leads disappear the moment they get their AOEs (collosus + storms) with their meatshield (chargelots).
It's maybe not imbalanced, but TvP is hardly fun. For some others (not me) TvT is a drag as well.
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I don't know about terrans vanishing from the ladder but I do know that the quality of terran players seems to have dropped dramatically over the last couple months because of the metagame. I feel like terrans are getting too reliant on drop play and FE, both of which are opportunities to exploit but which protoss players can also exploit as it allows more builds to be effective.
When I play against a terran player who knows how to macro off 3+ bases while applying pressure and scouting to come kill me if I get too greedy... that's when the game is on and I know I'm going to have to earn my win. Otherwise just throwing 2-base all ins at me just result in technical wins/losses with no real fun or learning going on by either side.
As for comments about difficulty of protoss and APM... I still think APM is a joke. I can get to mid masters on 40 average apm, and when the going gets tough I spike up to 300+. I'd really like it if protoss had more units that would reward APM but the fact is there is only a few times when you need that much APM. I actually see my win rates increase when I relax and carefully lower my APM and plan things out so that I can spread my actions around instead of having them all be in one place.
Thing is that terrans can also benefit from this low APM strategy, and if they combine that with high APM micro then they are at an advantage that I can't do anything except shrug and trust in my strategy.
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On December 14 2011 17:27 Noocta wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 17:16 TimeRunnerS wrote:Its pretty sad, because ZvT is my best MU  Actualy, i switched to Terran because i love ZvT so much, and there's so few Terran in ladder, i wanted to play that match up more often. So i play it on the other side. :>
I did the exact same thing, I was bored of playing zvz (i'm plat) so I switched to terran, tvz is a lot of fun ^^. I feel like terran at my level is definitely harder than zerg in tvz (if you want to play macro games at least), but I feel like it's relatively easy to know what you have to do to improve as terran. You don't have to worry as much about all-ins if you use safe builds, and you can practice timings and bo effectively.
It's unforgiving because if your army is caught unsiege or if you don't protect / spread your marines you will die, but it's a really micro/macro/multitask intensive matchup which relies a lot on timing and pressuring the opponent so it's really a lot of fun.I can understand why it would be frustrating for terran players.Maps like taldarim are really really hard though.
On the other hand I really don't understand the pvt matchup, I always move out with my army at the wrong timing or die to all-ins.. but i'm learning :p.
A lot of people don't like TvT as well at my level, but honestly I find it quite fun you can do a lot of funky builds ( proxy banshees, mass marine on open maps etc).
I think also what helps me enjoy the game is that I know that I'm bad and switching races has showed me that it was not because of the race I was playing. So i just play for fun
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I am one of those diamond terran that stop playing ladder. I still playing almost everyday but I play custom game now. Reason for stop laddering is that I think I will wait for the balancing thing to settle down first. I hate being nerfed every e month. Also I like terran because of mech play from scbw, I get sick of playing 2 base timing attack.
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I still play Terran but only because learning a new race would require time that I don't have at the moment.
The thing I dislike most about my race is the feeling of the invisible hour glass on my head. If I don't play incredibly greedy and risky, I have to do damage NOW. Scrap that.. rather I should have done damage THREE MINUTES AGO. It feels to me that you are forced into action because your economy grows the slowest and your high tech units are not the powerhouses you want them to be.
In TvZ the clock is tickling the most obvious. You HAVE to move out. If can never ever give the Zerg time. But due to the nature of Zerg you will be crushed if you move out too fast. This has been mitigated somewhat by the reactor hellion expand, which has the flaw that it will hand him muta tech as he can easily defend on most maps with queens and 1-2 spines. I have been trying to put myself in zergy shoes in this matchup trying to figure out in what situation the Zerg would be forced to attack me. But I can't seem to find any reasonable scenario. So Zerg can sit back and wait for me to make the first move growing more powerful as the game continues.
In TvP is is similar. There is a brief moment of glory when you have bio upgrade ready and toss does not have much splash but it's downhill from there. So you try to make the most of the threat the phase of bio domination gives you to either be really greedy and win by numbers or to inflict damage and win the game.Once Protoss has base #3 up and chargelots plus any form of splash its really hard to inflict lasting damage.
So it's either win fast or be ready for an epic uphill struggle.
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On December 14 2011 17:51 GoldenH wrote:
As for comments about difficulty of protoss and APM... I still think APM is a joke. I can get to mid masters on 40 average apm, and when the going gets tough I spike up to 300+. I'd really like it if protoss had more units that would reward APM but the fact is there is only a few times when you need that much APM. I actually see my win rates increase when I relax and carefully lower my APM and plan things out so that I can spread my actions around instead of having them all be in one place.
thats the problem terran needs to have high apm and good micro to be cost effective (obviously not a problem for code S players), other races can do just well with sub par micro and multitasking thats why its so accommodating for new players to pick toss/zerg over terran, tbh i dont see easy solution to this problem its sad because that means the trend will continue
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Alot of people arent realizing another major hard part of Terran, Mechanics aside.
Since Terran is the hybrid race, strategy is much more difficult for Terran. Terran has to have a mix of push/harass/defend. To much harass and ul get wrecked when he just comes to your front door, to much defense P and Z get their late game armys and crush you. To much pushing or pushing to early/late, You lose your first push and its usually GG.
Look at Z and P plans vs T Minus any all-ins.
P: Defend til late game critical mass of collsi storm.
Z: Defend til late game critical mass of infestor/BL
Being the aggressor can be very challenging, finding that mix of push/harass/defend while adapting to the other players plan is very difficult when it is combined on your mechanics of the game
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EPT
