Please keep this thread on topic. It's ok to discuss the professionalism of what happened, but don't turn this thread into personal attacks or it will be closed.
On December 14 2011 03:55 bokeevboke wrote: Naniwa is the best example of what sc2 scene resembles nowadays, all they care is money. Naniwa happens to have enough guts to show it.
You people really think sc2 is something big and players should be passionate about it? your wrong. Most of players just bump in to make some money while its possible. Most of players stream to make money, not for the fans. They use us.
sc2 never gonna be as epic as sc bw. Gameplay is shit in sc2, we watch boring games over and over again. Only thing we discuss is drama. I can't believe people are still in it.
I think he cares more about actually winning, not winning the money. Think I remember him saying something like that wayback
yeah cuz he sure showed that he cares more about winning than money. o0;;
On December 14 2011 06:07 aviator116 wrote: naniwa has always shown this kid of immaturity. i could forgive him for that MLG and blizzcon fiasco, but not this. this is like saying "im not going to earn any money, so i don't care about this tournament anymore"
Go find the Dignitas video from the MLG he tore through... at the end when he's carrying the trophy he mentions the trophy being far more important to him than the money. Just because he played a shit game because he was frustrated, disappointed and upset doesn't mean he's a greedy piece of shit.
I'm not a huge Naniwa fan but people need to stop harshly misjudging him.
Let me start off my stating I am not a huge fan of Naniwa anyways. No bias here.
However I think that the term "match fixing" is being thrown around a bit too loosely nowadays. Sure Naniwa knew he was going to lose if he sent all his workers to NesTea's base but if he wanted to lose, that is his own decision. If Naniwa had put money on himself to lose, then yes, it was match fixing. However this is not the case. It may not be a very classy thing for Naniwa to have done, but this is not match fixing at all.
MC didn't have anything to gain by beating DongRaeGu so he played a pretty sloppy game. Can we consider that match fixing too? As for the CoCa/Byun incident. Sure you could have considered that match fixing, but not to the extent of the savior incident with the other BW players. What CoCa did was idiocy, not criminal. How about the White-Ra incident at MLG? White-Ra didn't show up for their first match and the two players met again in the losers bracket. His opponent destroyed his own command center twice so that they could start off 2-2 on even terms in the series. Nobody called that match fixing and instead praised his opponent for good manners. Hard to see where to draw the line here guys....
On December 14 2011 05:43 1st_Panzer_Div. wrote: ... I used to enjoy watching his games and celebration dances and studying his builds, but if he isn't going to be giving his best all the time, I'm sure not going to be studying his stuff anymore, because he may just be doing crap builds as he doesn't care.
LOL - on the contrary this shows that when nani actually plays you can expect him to try his best.
On December 14 2011 04:43 Big J wrote: It's not professional behaviour and it's definatly hurting e-sports if people can do this as in other sports competitions you simply must not do this and you will be punished for such things. Furthermore it is hurting GOMs business, so I would completly understand if they punished Nani for that rather harshly.
Everyone who is not a big esports fan and hears of this will just get the impression that this has nothing to do with "sports", it is not worth watching it because only immature kids are playing it. (not calling Nani a such, but that's what the impression has to be for outsiders)
Having pointless matches 30 minutes after the player is eliminated from the competition hurting their business. In no other sporting competition is this done. Players are allowed to lose in peace.
Teams and professinals in other sports have to play their matches even if the tables are settled and there is nothing to accomplish for them anymore. It's one thing to bring your B-team to a match or not playing your heart out, it's another thing to not do anything at all. I think everyone would have understood if he had gone for a proxy 2gate or a 4gate or some other all in. Those things are legimate strategies and don't lead into another exhausting but resultwise pointless game. But I don't see how this is a different category from arranging games. A far less dangerous level, but still something that should be taken seriously. Also this is another point. If SC2 wants to be big enough to become a "sport" in which people bet on results, the people who arrange tournamens have to be able to guarantee that the games are being played out under tournament conditions.
On December 14 2011 04:43 Big J wrote: It's not professional behaviour and it's definatly hurting e-sports if people can do this as in other sports competitions you simply must not do this and you will be punished for such things. Furthermore it is hurting GOMs business, so I would completly understand if they punished Nani for that rather harshly.
Everyone who is not a big esports fan and hears of this will just get the impression that this has nothing to do with "sports", it is not worth watching it because only immature kids are playing it. (not calling Nani a such, but that's what the impression has to be for outsiders)
It's not unprofessional behaviour and it's definatly not hurting e-sports if people can do this as in other sports competitions you simply can do this and you will not be punished for such things. Furthermore it is not hurting GOMs business, so I would not completly understand if they punished Nani for that rather harshly.
Everyone who is not a big esports fan and hears of this will just get the impression that this has parallels with "sports", it is worth watching it because there aren't immature kids are playing it. (not calling Nani a such, but that's what the impression has to be for outsiders)
NFL teams, and teams in other leagues, regularly play their hardest in late season games despite a lack of significance of the game. (Actually, it's often beneficial to lose due to draft implications.)
If the Colts just decided to not attend a game, or to send out their C team every down and not tackle, do you think that would hurt the NFL, look terrible, and cause serious consequences?
Absolutely.
And so should this.
Hilariously enough, that's exactly what the Colts did a few years ago, when they were 15-0. They sat EVERYONE and went 15-1, because they had homefield locked up.
A few media pundits were upset for a few days, but by and large nobody cared. Because it isn't that big a deal.
Im sure players who were playing that game still played hard.
What Naniwa did is something like scoring on your own net.
Not at all, Attacking his own Nexus would be like scoring on your own net. Sitting your starters in any NFL-game is basically to hand over the match, nice and gift-wrapped.
Each and every player on the field will be playing to the best of their abilities, for various reasons. (Improve stats, impress coach, get more playing time next game, get a better contract, because they have sponsors, because the NFL would punish them if they didn't, etc.)
This was not that.
Are you kidding me? You don't realise that "the best of their abilities" is a joke compared to the actual starters? And in the tough competition that is NFL, this is like saying "here take the win, we don't want it, just take it". The other team losing would be an embarresment and equivelent to Nestea losing to that Probe rush. The NFL would never punish somebody for not giving their all, wtf?
This is getting of topic. The point is that these kinds of things happens in sports all the time when the result only matters to one of the parties. No reason to get hung up on one simple example. Even though it's a good one imo. The worse thing is that it usually has implications on the actual competition. Naniwa vs Nestea did not. This match was like playing out a Bo5 in an elim-tournament when one player is already up 3-0, completely meaningless.
The tournament shouldn't force players that are already eliminated to play. Naniwa should have cannon rushed, or 3 gate proxy, the game would be over quick and you would all still be complaining.
BTW Nestea sucks recently, really fallen apart, Naniwa probably woulda smashed him again anyway.
What bothers me the most about Naniwa's actions is that Naniwa had 30 minutes to request the match to be not played. GOM might've permitted it, maybe not but in both cases it would've make his argument a lot stronger. And let's be honest, when it was 0-3 naniwa 0-3 nestea, everyone watching the live was questioning whether the grudge match that didn't effect the outcome of the tournament will be played or not and it wasn't until minutes before naniwa vs nestea that moletrap announced the match will be played. During all this time, Naniwa didn't do anything to prevent his own self-destructive behavior which really disappoints me.
On December 14 2011 06:25 PoOxZ wrote: The tournament shouldn't force players that are already eliminated to play. Naniwa should have cannon rushed, or 3 gate proxy, the game would be over quick and you would all still be complaining.
"you would all still be complaining" lol nope.
those are unfortunately actually part of the game, and things people use to win. if nestea couldn't hold those then that's his fault for not knowing (note: I'm a nestea fan... so... whatever)
On December 14 2011 06:26 eScaper-tsunami wrote: What bothers me the most about Naniwa's actions is that Naniwa had 30 minutes to request the match to be not played. GOM might've permitted it, maybe not but in both cases it would've make his argument a lot stronger. And let's be honest, when it was 0-3 naniwa 0-3 nestea, everyone watching the live was questioning whether the grudge match that didn't effect the outcome of the tournament will be played or not and it wasn't until minutes before naniwa vs nestea that moletrap announced the match will be played. During all this time, Naniwa didn't do anything to prevent his own self-destructive behavior which really disappoints me.
How do you know he didn't ask for it to not be played? He could have asked, GOM said he had to play it, and Naniwa showed them what happens when you force a players hand.
This thread is a pain in the ass for everyone with the ability to look at something in a rational way. If Nani does not want to play a game that has nothing on stake it's totally fine. It's not anyone's business. Nestea got his win and that is all that counts. Anyone who argues with morals is completely subjective and thus plain false.
To the guy above me: Forfeiting a game might result in disadvantages in the future. Losing a game in a short way does not.
On December 14 2011 06:25 PoOxZ wrote: The tournament shouldn't force players that are already eliminated to play. Naniwa should have cannon rushed, or 3 gate proxy, the game would be over quick and you would all still be complaining.
BTW Nestea sucks recently, really fallen apart, Naniwa probably woulda smashed him again anyway.
if naniwa 1 gated or cannon rushed, he would not get this shitstorm upon him. sure he would be criticized but his professionalism would not be questioned to this degree.
He can probe rush all he wants in ladder. Pro just doesnt blatantly do this kind of stuff. That's my understanding and generally required ethic in real life.
On December 14 2011 06:25 PoOxZ wrote: The tournament shouldn't force players that are already eliminated to play. Naniwa should have cannon rushed, or 3 gate proxy, the game would be over quick and you would all still be complaining.
"you would all still be complaining" lol nope.
those are unfortunately actually part of the game, and things people use to win. if nestea couldn't hold those then that's his fault for not knowing (note: I'm a nestea fan... so... whatever)
however worker rushing....
Thats the point, nestea can easily hold those, and Naniwa doesn't care about winning a pointless game obviously. I'm also a nestea fan but he has disappointed me so often lately. Its a tournaments of champions so I understand they want all the games to be played. As a player though are you going to care if you win and tie 2nd last or lose and tie for last?
People are angry but Naniwa will play amazing games again and be competetive in tournaments again. All this hate for a match that means nothing.
On December 14 2011 04:43 Big J wrote: It's not professional behaviour and it's definatly hurting e-sports if people can do this as in other sports competitions you simply must not do this and you will be punished for such things. Furthermore it is hurting GOMs business, so I would completly understand if they punished Nani for that rather harshly.
Everyone who is not a big esports fan and hears of this will just get the impression that this has nothing to do with "sports", it is not worth watching it because only immature kids are playing it. (not calling Nani a such, but that's what the impression has to be for outsiders)
It's not unprofessional behaviour and it's definatly not hurting e-sports if people can do this as in other sports competitions you simply can do this and you will not be punished for such things. Furthermore it is not hurting GOMs business, so I would not completly understand if they punished Nani for that rather harshly.
Everyone who is not a big esports fan and hears of this will just get the impression that this has parallels with "sports", it is worth watching it because there aren't immature kids are playing it. (not calling Nani a such, but that's what the impression has to be for outsiders)
NFL teams, and teams in other leagues, regularly play their hardest in late season games despite a lack of significance of the game. (Actually, it's often beneficial to lose due to draft implications.)
If the Colts just decided to not attend a game, or to send out their C team every down and not tackle, do you think that would hurt the NFL, look terrible, and cause serious consequences?
Absolutely.
And so should this.
Hilariously enough, that's exactly what the Colts did a few years ago, when they were 15-0. They sat EVERYONE and went 15-1, because they had homefield locked up.
A few media pundits were upset for a few days, but by and large nobody cared. Because it isn't that big a deal.
Im sure players who were playing that game still played hard.
What Naniwa did is something like scoring on your own net.
Not at all, Attacking his own Nexus would be like scoring on your own net. Sitting your starters in any NFL-game is basically to hand over the match, nice and gift-wrapped.
Each and every player on the field will be playing to the best of their abilities, for various reasons. (Improve stats, impress coach, get more playing time next game, get a better contract, because they have sponsors, because the NFL would punish them if they didn't, etc.)
This was not that.
Are you kidding me? You don't realise that "the best of their abilities" is a joke compared to the actual starters? And in the tough competition that is NFL, this is like saying "here take the win, we don't want it, just take it". The other team losing would be an embarresment and equivelent to Nestea losing to that Probe rush. The NFL would never punish somebody for not giving their all, wtf?
This is getting of topic. The point is that these kinds of things happens in sports all the time when the result only matters to one of the parties. No reason to get hung up on one simple example. Even though it's a good one imo. The worse thing is that it usually has implications on the actual competition. Naniwa vs Nestea did not. This match was like playing out a Bo5 in an elim-tournament when one player is already up 3-0, completely meaningless.
If what you say is true, then what is the SC equivalent of NFL players just standing not running after the ball? Clearly fielding a B-team and just standing and not even trying to get the ball are not the same thing. Which one is closer to what happened between Naniwa and Nestea? That's right, simply standing there, as even a bronze level player would probably have won the game. Fielding a B-team means that you're still sending a very competetive team to play. Just not the best you got.
On December 14 2011 06:25 PoOxZ wrote: The tournament shouldn't force players that are already eliminated to play. Naniwa should have cannon rushed, or 3 gate proxy, the game would be over quick and you would all still be complaining.
BTW Nestea sucks recently, really fallen apart, Naniwa probably woulda smashed him again anyway.
if naniwa 1 gated or cannon rushed, he would not get this shitstorm upon him. sure he would be criticized but his professionalism would not be questioned to this degree.
He can probe rush all he wants in ladder. Pro just doesnt blatantly do this kind of stuff. That's my understanding and generally required ethic in real life.
You have ethics that prohibit professional gamers to perform strategies with low win percentage? Wow.
Nani constantly does shit like this and wonders why people are ragging on him?
He really is shortsighted to just take hit after hit on his PR/image like that. For progamers that manage their image well, look no further than MC. Sure, some people still hate MC for being flashy, but he'd never cop out like that in a tournament setting.
Beating Nestea with nothing on the line is still a pretty big coup imo, even if Nestea has been slipping a bit in the televised scene lately.
It comes down to one thing: Sportsmanship. It is why e-sports will not catch on to a massive level until this is fixed. In the MLB last place teams are still trying to win games in September, even though they were eliminated 2 months prior. Part of being a "professional" is being held to a certain standard, knowing that people out there are paying to watch you, and it is good sportsmanship to give them the best matches possible. Naniwa thought of no one but himself, and he has no inkling of sportsmanship, which is why he will always be hated by the community.
To the people saying that professional sports teams still play all their games even if they are out.
Naniwa played all of his games. You could make this argument if Nani had not shown up to the last game but you can't punish him for playing a strategy that you don't like.
On December 14 2011 06:25 PoOxZ wrote: The tournament shouldn't force players that are already eliminated to play. Naniwa should have cannon rushed, or 3 gate proxy, the game would be over quick and you would all still be complaining.
"you would all still be complaining" lol nope.
those are unfortunately actually part of the game, and things people use to win. if nestea couldn't hold those then that's his fault for not knowing (note: I'm a nestea fan... so... whatever)
however worker rushing....
Thats the point, nestea can easily hold those, and Naniwa doesn't care about winning a pointless game obviously. I'm also a nestea fan but he has disappointed me so often lately. Its a tournaments of champions so I understand they want all the games to be played. As a player though are you going to care if you win and tie 2nd last or lose and tie for last?
People are angry but Naniwa will play amazing games again and be competetive in tournaments again. All this hate for a match that means nothing.
"I'm also a nestea fan but he has disappointed me so often lately." Same, but I mean, he's still trying. also apparently that day/today was his birthday or something from what I understand? idk... -_-
"Its a tournaments of champions so I understand they want all the games to be played. As a player though are you going to care if you win and tie 2nd last or lose and tie for last?" if you really were _competitive_... you would still want to win.
edit:
On December 14 2011 06:37 Tantaburs wrote: To the people saying that professional sports teams still play all their games even if they are out.
Naniwa played all of his games. You could make this argument if Nani had not shown up to the last game but you can't punish him for playing a strategy that you don't like.
you're calling worker rushing a strategy. um.. worker rushing ...
On December 14 2011 06:24 TheBanana wrote: \Are you kidding me? You don't realise that "the best of their abilities" is a joke compared to the actual starters? And in the tough competition that is NFL, this is like saying "here take the win, we don't want it, just take it". The other team losing would be an embarresment and equivelent to Nestea losing to that Probe rush. The NFL would never punish somebody for not giving their all, wtf?
The NFL hasn't had to do it because they haven't had occasion for it. However they've done it in football/soccer, the EPL punished Blackpool last year for fielding a weakened team vs. Aston Villa (they were saving players for another fixture that they thought would be easier).
EPT
