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Please keep this thread on topic. It's ok to discuss the professionalism of what happened, but don't turn this thread into personal attacks or it will be closed. |
On December 13 2011 23:29 TheKefka wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 23:26 colate wrote:On December 13 2011 23:07 oban wrote:
The bullying towards Naniwa is disgusting. What a retarded, bandwagoning community this is. He threw a game that didn't mean anything. Get over it.
Pretty disgusting comment you made. We, the community, cares how our frontrunners act in korea. How the koreans think about the foreigners players as a whole. We want more foreigners in korea. Every step or actions affecting that relationship is important for the community - its something we care about. Just by looking at the twitter responses by the korean players and teams - the foreign scene got mocked. What irritates me is how people like you glorify the Koreans like they are the superior moral beings of this planet.
You're in their damn tournament and in their nation, be respectful to their customs then.
They're not moral superiors, but they should have more of a say than foreigners when it comes to the GSL and they are damn pissed at Naniwa's actions.
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People just wanted to see Nestea and Naniwa go at it in a grudge match. Instead Naniwa throws the match. Sure it would have been nice to see them play but what would be the point? And besides, its not like either of these two player would give a good show match like with Stephano and Brat_OK. Neither was going to advance, and it had no impact on the results.
One thing you have to consider, would people be more angry if Naniwa just fortified and not play a match.
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On December 13 2011 23:37 MasterKush wrote:
they just blindly defend him.
define they? I would not call myself a Naniwa fan; however, I can rationalize what has happened. If only you read everything that was said you might understand why this is no different than what we see in other sports.
Are the organizers pissed? Of course they are. They have reason to be and what Johan did went totally against their culture.
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It's actually very sad, really. He could have salvaged his tournament by showing some composure in defeat and showing everyone how good he is by beating the best zerg in the world, in korea, on his own turf, when there was nothing but pride on the line. Who knows, if he played the same way he was playing in his other games, and considering the way Nestea was playing in his game, he probably had a pretty good shot at beating him. But no, he threw a tantrum, a-moved his workers, took his hands off his keyboard and mouse, and threw away the game like a child.
He disrespected what this tournament was supposed to be ("to determine the best of the best"), the tournament organizers at GOM, the tournament sponsors (and his own sponsors), his opponent and other players in the tournament (and also the ones who didn't qualify), and most importantly the fans who make these tournaments possible, and because of this he probably just pissed his career in Korea away.
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On December 13 2011 23:39 sereniity wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 23:35 Treziel wrote:On December 13 2011 23:22 Derez wrote:
The reasonable part of me would be happy if they booted him out of code S for this, the sadistic part of me wants him in there so I can see him get all-inned some more. Part of me makes me a bigger fan of all those players that do what they're supposed to. Haha this is great, I was also hoping GOM would strip him of code S but actually now you've said it it would be better if they left him in so the Koreans can pick up their freewins (they only allin him every game because they know he isn't good enough to stop it), he can throw another rage tantrum and leave Korea shamed and 0-14 in GSL (I believe he is 0-12 or 0-10 now). Wow... a big part of this community is fucking disgusting...
The total blind fanboy bias of anyone that defends these kind of actions is the only thing that is fucking disgusting here, mate. Just so you know, I'd say the same if we were talking about a British (my nationality) player like DeMuslim or BlinG had done this. Maybe open up your eyes and see past your nationalism.
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On December 13 2011 23:39 sereniity wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 23:35 Treziel wrote:On December 13 2011 23:22 Derez wrote:
The reasonable part of me would be happy if they booted him out of code S for this, the sadistic part of me wants him in there so I can see him get all-inned some more. Part of me makes me a bigger fan of all those players that do what they're supposed to. Haha this is great, I was also hoping GOM would strip him of code S but actually now you've said it it would be better if they left him in so the Koreans can pick up their freewins (they only allin him every game because they know he isn't good enough to stop it), he can throw another rage tantrum and leave Korea shamed and 0-14 in GSL (I believe he is 0-12 or 0-10 now). Wow... a big part of this community is fucking disgusting...
Indeed
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On December 13 2011 23:42 Treziel wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 23:39 sereniity wrote:On December 13 2011 23:35 Treziel wrote:On December 13 2011 23:22 Derez wrote:
The reasonable part of me would be happy if they booted him out of code S for this, the sadistic part of me wants him in there so I can see him get all-inned some more. Part of me makes me a bigger fan of all those players that do what they're supposed to. Haha this is great, I was also hoping GOM would strip him of code S but actually now you've said it it would be better if they left him in so the Koreans can pick up their freewins (they only allin him every game because they know he isn't good enough to stop it), he can throw another rage tantrum and leave Korea shamed and 0-14 in GSL (I believe he is 0-12 or 0-10 now). Wow... a big part of this community is fucking disgusting... The total blind fanboy bias of anyone that defends these kind of actions is the only thing that is fucking disgusting here, mate. Just so you know, I'd say the same if we were talking about a British (my nationality) player like DeMuslim or BlinG had done this. Maybe open up your eyes and see past your nationalism.
If that were the case then you would be a rare oddity! o;
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On December 13 2011 23:42 Treziel wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 23:39 sereniity wrote:On December 13 2011 23:35 Treziel wrote:On December 13 2011 23:22 Derez wrote:
The reasonable part of me would be happy if they booted him out of code S for this, the sadistic part of me wants him in there so I can see him get all-inned some more. Part of me makes me a bigger fan of all those players that do what they're supposed to. Haha this is great, I was also hoping GOM would strip him of code S but actually now you've said it it would be better if they left him in so the Koreans can pick up their freewins (they only allin him every game because they know he isn't good enough to stop it), he can throw another rage tantrum and leave Korea shamed and 0-14 in GSL (I believe he is 0-12 or 0-10 now). Wow... a big part of this community is fucking disgusting... The total blind fanboy bias of anyone that defends these kind of actions is the only thing that is fucking disgusting here, mate. Just so you know, I'd say the same if we were talking about a British (my nationality) player like DeMuslim or BlinG had done this. Maybe open up your eyes and see past your nationalism.
I support Naniwa as well and i'm not related to Sweden at all.
Similar things have happened before earlier as well (including Stephano vs Brat_OK if I recall correctly, where both were trying as hard as possible to lose, IdrA forfeiting his matches against Nerchio, people forfeiting their consulation match at MLG) and there's never been much flack about it. In fact, people were heavily defending IdrA for his forfeit against Nerchio.
Now, lets face it, the game between Naniwa and Nestea was useless, both were at 0-3 and wouldn't advance, so why still care as a player. They play to win and to earn money, not to play useless games while you're very frustrated. In the end, a person plays money to see good games, not to see games in general. Watching Stephano vs Brat_OK was literally insulting, similar to IdrA's six pool against MC a while ago, so I see no difference to end it as soon as possible than to play it out while being uninterested.
Was it mannered by Naniwa? No, but it was not a completely strange discision either. When you're actually training very hard (and not just sitting at home, eating and watching Starcraft 2) then you are stressed when you lose and absolutely not interested in playing useless matches when you really want to go away and get yourself together.
Finally, that Koreans are angry I can agree, but they carry the whole "be manner " thing way to high in their heads. There, it's just a cultural difference, similar to how Koreans reacted towards IdrA for example (early beta / early days in Korea).
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On December 13 2011 23:42 Treziel wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 23:39 sereniity wrote:On December 13 2011 23:35 Treziel wrote:On December 13 2011 23:22 Derez wrote:
The reasonable part of me would be happy if they booted him out of code S for this, the sadistic part of me wants him in there so I can see him get all-inned some more. Part of me makes me a bigger fan of all those players that do what they're supposed to. Haha this is great, I was also hoping GOM would strip him of code S but actually now you've said it it would be better if they left him in so the Koreans can pick up their freewins (they only allin him every game because they know he isn't good enough to stop it), he can throw another rage tantrum and leave Korea shamed and 0-14 in GSL (I believe he is 0-12 or 0-10 now). Wow... a big part of this community is fucking disgusting... The total blind fanboy bias of anyone that defends these kind of actions is the only thing that is fucking disgusting here, mate. Just so you know, I'd say the same if we were talking about a British (my nationality) player like DeMuslim or BlinG had done this. Maybe open up your eyes and see past your nationalism.
How about you read my edit? The only thing people look at is the fucking nationality it seems as if it has anything to do with it... That's the only argument you can make?
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i dont understand why people make such a big deal out of that, the games were meaningless anyway, am i right?
People are trying to FORCE the drama here.
in a better format, the games wouldnt even have been played.
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On December 13 2011 23:36 quancer wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 23:29 TheKefka wrote:On December 13 2011 23:26 colate wrote:On December 13 2011 23:07 oban wrote:
The bullying towards Naniwa is disgusting. What a retarded, bandwagoning community this is. He threw a game that didn't mean anything. Get over it.
Pretty disgusting comment you made. We, the community, cares how our frontrunners act in korea. How the koreans think about the foreigners players as a whole. We want more foreigners in korea. Every step or actions affecting that relationship is important for the community - its something we care about. Just by looking at the twitter responses by the korean players and teams - the foreign scene got mocked. What irritates me is how people like you glorify the Koreans like they are the superior moral beings of this planet. The Koreans obviously approach esports like we do professional sports, and we approach esports as more of a game. I don't see how he ever said anything about them being more moral, but seeing as how the BW scene has thrived over there, and the professionality of how it's run in comparison to esports in the west, (minus a few countries like Sweden) we should try to take their lead. What really irritates me is how people like you seem to have some kind of inferiority complex/us vs. them mentality.
Wise words. Maybe we shouldn't be singling out Naniwa, maybe this is more of a problem of how a lot of foreign players approach e-sports in general, as "games", because clearly other examples of players rage-quitting, giving up or throwing games have been cited here. I think everyone can agree that we ultimately want SC2 to have the notoriety of a professional sports, we want MLG to be the next NFL (maybe not right away, but eventually). Yet we still want to treat them as "games", and when we don't take what we do seriously we tend to not put max effort into them, and because of that results suffer.
Obviously I'm not trying to insinuate that foreigners are "lazy" obviously there's a lot of them out there that are practicing their asses off and working hard to get better, but I just think it's more of a mentality issue that these kinds of occurrences are common or considered not a big deal.
Part of the reason why mainstream sports are mainstream is because the league and the owners and the players respect the fan and the fact that it's their money that gives them the power to do what they love and get paid for it, and they make sure that the fans are rewarded for that. I think a lot of the Koreans understand that as well.
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On December 13 2011 23:36 quancer wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 23:29 TheKefka wrote:On December 13 2011 23:26 colate wrote:On December 13 2011 23:07 oban wrote:
The bullying towards Naniwa is disgusting. What a retarded, bandwagoning community this is. He threw a game that didn't mean anything. Get over it.
Pretty disgusting comment you made. We, the community, cares how our frontrunners act in korea. How the koreans think about the foreigners players as a whole. We want more foreigners in korea. Every step or actions affecting that relationship is important for the community - its something we care about. Just by looking at the twitter responses by the korean players and teams - the foreign scene got mocked. What irritates me is how people like you glorify the Koreans like they are the superior moral beings of this planet. The Koreans obviously approach esports like we do professional sports, and we approach esports as more of a game. I don't see how he ever said anything about them being more moral, but seeing as how the BW scene has thrived over there, and the professionality of how it's run in comparison to esports in the west, we should try to take their lead. What really irritates me is how people like you seem to have some kind of inferiority complex/us vs. them mentality.
^ This pretty much sums up my opinion.
Stop putting words into my mouth, TheKefka. I didn't mention anything about koreans being more moral beings than the foreigners. My focal point was, and still is, that NaNiwa is one of our front runners of the foreigner scene. Who doesn't want more foreigners in the korean teamhouses? Who doesn't want the foreigners to be able to compete with the koreans - by living there and competing in the GSL? NaNiwa isn't giving the foreigner scene the exposure they need.
If NaNiwa actually won against the 3 times GSL champion Nestea on his turf. In front of the koreans. Now that would make an impact in the korean scene.
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Every single nerd crying about this, are just selfish and they are killing esports. Gotta man up. One thumbs down from a swede and TL goes crazy. It is so retarded. Stop being selfish. The match was pointless for NANIWA, HE is what matters in the GSL not US, not FIRST however. SORRY.
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One thing I'd like to know; how did the koreans react to the Coca incident? Were they completely outraged at Coca, or did they think taht Coca's punishment was too harsh?
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Guess you football fans would enjoy it if Manchester United or Chelsea or any other professional football club were to send their entire team to the other side of the pitch when they are down 0-6 and unable to win anymore. I don't know man, that sounds exactly like what's happening right here.
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id laugh if Nestea cmae out with well I was going to proxy hatch him.... lol
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while i dont like naniwa at all,i think that there was no need to play the game justifies his actions.
-if they didnt play the game at all,i guess there wouldnt be threads about it on teamliquid ;
-its quite common that games,that dont matter are not played ; this makes sense for both,frustrated players as well
as the viewing pleasure not being killed by bad games.
this also leads to my believe that this was actually a game the viewers didnt have a "right" to watch..it just meant nothing.
-its obvious that forcing two players who are 0-3 will result in a short,probably stupid game anyways..who would blame naniwa if he just 4 gated w/o micro'ing? one could argue he could have tried a mothership rush i guess 
-i dont think people "betting" on the game is necessary a good argument since "betting" on a game that
might be in this kind of situation has a way higher risk anyway,since people will play worse(real sports and esports alike) ; furthermore - it is not the responsibility of the player to play well for people that throw away money on bets...
actually the mental state of the guy you bet on has to be the risk of the guy who bets, thats the nature of betting.
(its a different thing if the player trys to illegaly profit from bets tho)
-i also disagree that this shows any disrespect to casters. i dont even understand how this could be disrespectful for them other than somewhat wasting their time which they get paid for. (sorry if i missed something on this point)
i agree it could be somewhat disrespectful to the people of GOM,since they made this event possible and if they pay you for 4 games,you gotta play 4 games..but i think i read in this thread or another one they didnt even find it that bad?
basically i do understand the hating on naniwa for this game but i dont agree with it. while GSL certainly was the worst possible tournament to do something like this,its quite understandable in a game that was doomed before it began.
edit :
and by the way..the korean reactions - if translated right - are fucking non professional.
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On December 13 2011 23:37 MasterKush wrote:
I honestly can't fathom why anyone would be defending Naniwa? I honestly expected most of his fans to even be saying "This was one step too far!" but no, they just blindly defend him.
The problem I have with him throwing games away like this, is that he isn't just making himself look bad, but he makes Quantic Gaming (a team he has JUST signed for) look amateur and he begins to chip away at the credibility of the foreign scene.
Korean tournament organisers will most likely look at this incident and think "Are we taking a risk by inviting some of these foreign guys over here? We know we wouldn't see such behaviour from our own Korean players so why don't we just invite them instead?".
And who could blame them!?
Seeing as how Idra looks like an angel by comparison, foreigners by and large should be fine to them 
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On December 13 2011 23:44 sereniity wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 23:42 Treziel wrote:On December 13 2011 23:39 sereniity wrote:On December 13 2011 23:35 Treziel wrote:On December 13 2011 23:22 Derez wrote:
The reasonable part of me would be happy if they booted him out of code S for this, the sadistic part of me wants him in there so I can see him get all-inned some more. Part of me makes me a bigger fan of all those players that do what they're supposed to. Haha this is great, I was also hoping GOM would strip him of code S but actually now you've said it it would be better if they left him in so the Koreans can pick up their freewins (they only allin him every game because they know he isn't good enough to stop it), he can throw another rage tantrum and leave Korea shamed and 0-14 in GSL (I believe he is 0-12 or 0-10 now). Wow... a big part of this community is fucking disgusting... The total blind fanboy bias of anyone that defends these kind of actions is the only thing that is fucking disgusting here, mate. Just so you know, I'd say the same if we were talking about a British (my nationality) player like DeMuslim or BlinG had done this. Maybe open up your eyes and see past your nationalism. How about you read my edit? The only thing people look at is the fucking nationality it seems as if it has anything to do with it... That's the only argument you can make?
I can see we're just going to have to agree to disagree here, I've made my points and I stand by them. Whether you're defending him because of nationality or you truely think his actions were fine, either way I don't agree with you. I'm out of this thread from here.
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On December 13 2011 23:47 HMzK wrote:
Every single nerd crying about this, are just selfish and they are killing esports. Gotta man up. One thumbs down from a swede and TL goes crazy. It is so retarded. Stop being selfish. The match was pointless for NANIWA, HE is what matters in the GSL not US, not FIRST however. SORRY.
Man up? There's nothing to man up to when E-sports is killed because of a lack of professionalism. As pointless it is for Naniwa, E-sports won't survive without viewers, and viewers don't want to see this coming from a professional broadcasted match. How about watching an entire MLG loser's bracket worth of games of worker rushing just because they feel that they can't come back because of the winner's advantage system?
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EPT
