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Please keep this thread on topic. It's ok to discuss the professionalism of what happened, but don't turn this thread into personal attacks or it will be closed. |
On December 13 2011 23:29 hooberschmit wrote:
The thing is... its iffy. probe rushing definitely CAN win, if NeasTea microd really really bad. Its like doing a 2 proxy rax allin b/c you're mad. His reasoning was "FUCK IT LETS GO." I'm a naniwa fan, and taht game doesnt dissapoint me, although his tournament result does.
Then he should've done a proxy 2 gate? And naniwa didn't even micro his probes. A move vs. A move has literally 0% chance to win.
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On December 13 2011 23:30 zidaneshead wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 23:29 TheKefka wrote:On December 13 2011 23:26 colate wrote:On December 13 2011 23:07 oban wrote:
The bullying towards Naniwa is disgusting. What a retarded, bandwagoning community this is. He threw a game that didn't mean anything. Get over it.
Pretty disgusting comment you made. We, the community, cares how our frontrunners act in korea. How the koreans think about the foreigners players as a whole. We want more foreigners in korea. Every step or actions affecting that relationship is important for the community - its something we care about. Just by looking at the twitter responses by the korean players and teams - the foreign scene got mocked. What irritates me is how people like you glorify the Koreans like they are the superior moral beings of this planet. No, they're just the superior Starcraft players, and that's the truth. I wonder why?
Because they have the superior infrastructure in place and more than a decade of starcraft experience.
How is that related in any way to what I said?
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On December 13 2011 23:23 zidaneshead wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 23:19 DrGreen wrote:
Things like that happen in every sport. Even worse, teams are throwing games to get 2nd place in groups to get easier opponent in ro16,
This match was meaningless and I'm glad that Naniwa didnt play it out. BO1 wouldnt settle anything.
Also sup twitter? suddenly 30 min silence after nani's tweets.
and:
"TylerWasieleski
People act like what Naniwa did is unprecedented. It's not. It's common. Naniwa just took it to the logical, non-deceptive extreme." Look, Tyler is a great sc2 player, but he's not all-knowing when it comes to professional conduct and public perception. His opinion holds the same weight as everyone else's here.
Tyler was a varsity athlete like me. When he speaks he's talking from experience as are the rest.
I follow a lot of sports man. I've seen a lot of things people would disapprove of. Every athlete deals with the media differently.
Some are better at it than others.
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On December 13 2011 21:54 Weemoed wrote:
Similar things have happened before earlier as well (including Stephano vs Brat_OK if I recall correctly, where both were trying as hard as possible to lose, IdrA forfeiting his matches against Nerchio, people forfeiting their consulation match at MLG) and there's never been much flack about it. In fact, people were heavily defending IdrA for his forfeit against Nerchio.
Now, lets face it, the game between Naniwa and Nestea was useless, both were at 0-3 and wouldn't advance, so why still care as a player. They play to win and to earn money, not to play useless games while you're very frustrated. In the end, a person plays money to see good games, not to see games in general. Watching Stephano vs Brat_OK was literally insulting, similar to IdrA's six pool against MC a while ago, so I see no difference to end it as soon as possible than to play it out while being uninterested.
In the end, it is also the fault of GOM.tv. I do find this Blizzard Cup not that great with BO1 matches which results in cheese or risky strategies and now losers-bracket and they could know that such situations could happen.
Was it mannered by Naniwa? No, but it was not a completely strange discision either. When you're actually training very hard (and not just sitting at home, eating and watching Starcraft 2) then you are stressed when you lose and absolutely not interested in playing useless matches when you really want to go away and get yourself together.
I mostly agree with this. Of course it was not mannered by Naniwa but in his current position he didn't want to play a real game and he did this because he knew perfectly well there would be no consequence of him in a way "throwing" the match. Yeah, there won't be any consequence and any of you that think there will are just kidding yourself.
Why? Two reasons.
1) Naniwa had nothing to gain from throwing this match, in a sense that:
-He neither would have gained a better position in the tournament (such as the Stephano vs BratOK game where the losing player would get a better seed in the bracket).
-Nor he would be helping someone associated with him (such as a teammate or a friend) by losing the game.
-Last but not least (and we can only assume that, but with almost 100% certainty), Naniwa didn't bet money on himself on pinnacle sports or somewhere else that he was going to lose vs Nestea, so that he would make money by losing the game.
2) I am 99.(9)% certain that nowhere in the Blizzard cup rules is it stated that there are certain strategies that a player cannot use or he will be penalized. Both players started the game from an equal position (with 6 workers each), Naniwa chose a strategy(it doesn't matter how bad it is, it is a strategy), executed it, lost all his units, and gg-ed out. So as we figured out that Naniwa had nothing to gain from losing on purpose, and unless GOMTV strictly bans using a worker rush in the tournament, then from GOM's perspective naniwa did nothing wrong.
One place where he might get in trouble with is his new team Quantic, as we don't know for sure if they have some written rules in Naniwa's contract regarding "morals" or "being mannered" in all of your games. Naniwa probably knows his contract well enough though, and we can assume that he decided that this his contract with Quantic will not be such a big issue (either because there are no rules or because he thinks there will not be big consequences).
So am I saying that Naniwa had absolutely nothing to lose by doing this?
No. There are the fans. Many people might be angry about him doing that because they wanted a real game. Some fans might stop being his fans. Some people might start hating him.
But the point I am trying to make is that he had no official obligation to anyone (except maybe Quantic, but small chance) to give his best in that game. And as we all know Naniwa very well, he sometimes doesn't really give a f***, so he weighted his odds and decided that pissing some fans is an ok price to pay for being able to leave instantly as he obviously was not in a mood for a meaningless from his point of view game.
It might not be meaningless for you, the fans, but it was meaningless for him and if he has no official obligation from the tournament or his team to play it out than it doesn't matter what you, the fans, think, he has every right to worker rush and go home.
If you think Naniwa should be penalized, you should ask for a better format or stricter rules. Because as it is now, he shouldn't be penalized. He officially did nothing wrong.
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On December 13 2011 23:21 Thorakh wrote:
I believe it's disrespectful to everyone, his team, his sponsors, his opponent, his fans.
What he should've done is going for some funky strategy if he was so upset, I don't know, mothership rush? Proxy stargate? Mass DT build?
You want him to basically lie to us and pretend he was playing properly? For what purpose? I'm thanful he was honest with me as a fan and didn't try to pull the wool over my eyes by presenting a half arsed game as a legitimate contest.
And if he did that, and i said "he's throwing this game" i would get shot down by people condemning ME for calling it like it is. Naniwa did everyone a favour by being brutally honest and taking the guess work out of this. There is no doubt as to what happened. We saw it.
I wish other players were more honest in the past. Wind v SuperNova? BlizzCon finals? Those games were not played at 100%. I felt cheated and deceived by those performances and if i was betting money on them i'd be spewing. Difference here is this game never had to be played. Naniwa agreed.
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On December 13 2011 23:23 TheKefka wrote:And this is why I am a Tyler fan: Show nested quote +TylerWasieleski Tyler Wasieleski
People act like what Naniwa did is unprecedented. It's not. It's common. Naniwa just took it to the logical, non-deceptive extreme. Rationaltoss HWAITING!
Well - Tyler did "ragequit" out of one of his NASL matches so saying something different would make him a hyprocrite 
But yeah - other people do it as well. Does it suck? Yes. Should it be bannable/punishable? Yes.
But make rules for something like that BEFORE the incidents happen, because everyone will be too emotional after it happened.
On December 13 2011 23:30 bonifaceviii wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 23:28 zeru wrote:On December 13 2011 23:27 bonifaceviii wrote:
He's not going to be invited to any more invitational tournaments, that's for sure. But as long as he qualifies for other tournaments I'm sure naniwa will be fine. He will be invited for the same reason idra is invited to many of them actually. They bring viewers. Idra at least gets mad because he tries, which is exciting. Giving up and boxing your probes is not equally as interesting as typing a string of expletives and leaving with no gg.
You mean Idra just forfeiting games without trying is him trying? (TL Open vs Nerchio, IPL3 groupplays). Yeah.... big trying there
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It's embarrassing to me that people are making as big of a deal out of this as they are. Naniwa doesn't owe any spectator anything and he can play the game any way that he wants. I actually respect his attitude of championship or nothing way more than I respect the "let's show fans entertaining games." I want someone who is there to win not to be flashy or entertaining, there are no style points in Starcraft.
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On December 13 2011 23:27 Solidarity wrote:
I don't mean to be that guy who compares eSports to regular sports, but in a game of baseball down 15-0, do you think the losing team will leave its starters in the game? Or a game of Basketball when a team is down 95-60 in the fourth quarter? It's not seen as "dogging it" or being a poor sport in professional sports when the game is out of reach to take the starters out of the game, essentially forfeiting due to such a large deficit. I see this situation more akin to those, rather than comparisons of players merely not trying because they're lazy or uninspired.
That being said, people pay to watch GomTV, and it stings for them to have had paid to watch that.
It's different in sports that require real physical ability. The extra minutes can take a huge toll on players over the course of a season. At least in those games that you described these teams gave it their all for 36 minutes, and if at the end of the day it wasn't enough, then yes they put their subs in because it's absolutely crucial in a sport as taxing as Basketball.
Gamers on the other hand, train by sitting in front of their computers for 8 - 9 hours a day. One more match isn't going to kill them. Tournaments like MLG are way more taxing mentally than that GSL format was.
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On December 13 2011 23:30 bonifaceviii wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 23:28 zeru wrote:On December 13 2011 23:27 bonifaceviii wrote:
He's not going to be invited to any more invitational tournaments, that's for sure. But as long as he qualifies for other tournaments I'm sure naniwa will be fine. He will be invited for the same reason idra is invited to many of them actually. They bring viewers. Idra at least gets mad because he tries, which is exciting. Giving up and boxing your probes is not equally as interesting as typing a string of expletives and leaving with no gg.
Giving up on what? there was ZERO incentive for either of the players to go through with the game?
Nani gave it his all in the three earlier matches but he got cheesed out, he felt bad, there was no reason to play anymore.
What's so hard to understand about that?
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On December 13 2011 23:30 bonifaceviii wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 23:28 zeru wrote:On December 13 2011 23:27 bonifaceviii wrote:
He's not going to be invited to any more invitational tournaments, that's for sure. But as long as he qualifies for other tournaments I'm sure naniwa will be fine. He will be invited for the same reason idra is invited to many of them actually. They bring viewers. Idra at least gets mad because he tries, which is exciting. Giving up and boxing your probes is not equally as interesting as typing a string of expletives and leaving with no gg.
IdrA tries when he's down or at a disadvantage? What?
What IdrA does is after the fact man and in some cases he doesn't even show-up. -_-
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On December 13 2011 23:22 Derez wrote:
The reasonable part of me would be happy if they booted him out of code S for this, the sadistic part of me wants him in there so I can see him get all-inned some more. Part of me makes me a bigger fan of all those players that do what they're supposed to.
Haha this is great, I was also hoping GOM would strip him of code S but actually now you've said it it would be better if they left him in so the Koreans can pick up their freewins (they only allin him every game because they know he isn't good enough to stop it), he can throw another rage tantrum and leave Korea shamed and 0-14 in GSL (I believe he is 0-12 or 0-10 now).
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I really question why Naniwa and Nestea were made to play this match to begin with. It's a waste of time..... for the players AND the viewers. I understand this is a special circumstance only due to the two players' recent developing rivalry, but the outcome has no impact on the tournament, and I would be frustrated by having to wait for a pointless game to conclude to see the rest of the tournament.
Further, there is no way either player is going to bring their A game to beat the other player when there is nothing on the line and both players are likely tilted by their poor performances of the day. If anything, this further develops the rivalry, which in the future will be better showcased in games that actually mean something.
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On December 13 2011 23:29 TheKefka wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 23:26 colate wrote:On December 13 2011 23:07 oban wrote:
The bullying towards Naniwa is disgusting. What a retarded, bandwagoning community this is. He threw a game that didn't mean anything. Get over it.
Pretty disgusting comment you made. We, the community, cares how our frontrunners act in korea. How the koreans think about the foreigners players as a whole. We want more foreigners in korea. Every step or actions affecting that relationship is important for the community - its something we care about. Just by looking at the twitter responses by the korean players and teams - the foreign scene got mocked. What irritates me is how people like you glorify the Koreans like they are the superior moral beings of this planet.
The Koreans obviously approach esports like we do professional sports, and we approach esports as more of a game. I don't see how he ever said anything about them being more moral, but seeing as how the BW scene has thrived over there, and the professionality of how it's run in comparison to esports in the west, we should try to take their lead and learn as much as we can.
What really irritates me is how people like you seem to have some kind of inferiority complex/us vs. them mentality.
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I honestly can't fathom why anyone would be defending Naniwa? I honestly expected most of his fans to even be saying "This was one step too far!" but no, they just blindly defend him.
The problem I have with him throwing games away like this, is that he isn't just making himself look bad, but he makes Quantic Gaming (a team he has JUST signed for) look amateur and he begins to chip away at the credibility of the foreign scene.
Korean tournament organisers will most likely look at this incident and think "Are we taking a risk by inviting some of these foreign guys over here? We know we wouldn't see such behaviour from our own Korean players so why don't we just invite them instead?".
And who could blame them!?
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so when you guys are filing your complaints to GOM, please complain about all the 6 pools we have had, all the proxy cheese and about the fact that we had cheese attacks vs Nani today alone...
How about ANY 6 pool from now on is frowned upon? How about the fact that the two terrans cheesin/1base all in RUINED my experience today??? SO yeh im just as unhappy as anyone.
Champion of champions touranment and its best of one which can easily lead a player on a tilt... I bet nestea alone wouldnt of gone 1-3 if it was best of three.. But we will never know now.
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On December 13 2011 23:29 TheKefka wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 23:26 colate wrote:On December 13 2011 23:07 oban wrote:
The bullying towards Naniwa is disgusting. What a retarded, bandwagoning community this is. He threw a game that didn't mean anything. Get over it.
Pretty disgusting comment you made. We, the community, cares how our frontrunners act in korea. How the koreans think about the foreigners players as a whole. We want more foreigners in korea. Every step or actions affecting that relationship is important for the community - its something we care about. Just by looking at the twitter responses by the korean players and teams - the foreign scene got mocked. What irritates me is how people like you glorify the Koreans like they are the superior moral beings of this planet.
This also highly amuses me.
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On December 13 2011 23:35 Treziel wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 23:22 Derez wrote:
The reasonable part of me would be happy if they booted him out of code S for this, the sadistic part of me wants him in there so I can see him get all-inned some more. Part of me makes me a bigger fan of all those players that do what they're supposed to. Haha this is great, I was also hoping GOM would strip him of code S but actually now you've said it it would be better if they left him in so the Koreans can pick up their freewins (they only allin him every game because they know he isn't good enough to stop it), he can throw another rage tantrum and leave Korea shamed and 0-14 in GSL (I believe he is 0-12 or 0-10 now).
Wow... a big part of this community is fucking disgusting...
I would write a big rant about how the thing that Naniwa did is okay but it's all been covered 1 million times and it just gets thrown away by fucking biased POS fanboys (sorry for being harsh but I'm seriously mad)...
Stephano double six pool vs ClouD in games that mattered, you guys answer HURR DURR 6 POOL WORKS IT WORKS SOMETIMES!!
Yeah, doing 2 6 pools in a row TOTALLY isn't throwing games?
That with all the other examples in this thread should be enough for this thread to die but this fucking community feeds off of drama therefore it'll continue just so you carrions can keep feeding on something.
I feel so bad for Naniwa...
oh, before people go "LOL UR SWEDISH STOP BEING BIASED", I'm barely a fan of Naniwa, I love watching IdrA, ThorZaIN, MC, ForGG, Boxer and a handfull of other top-players, I don't give a shit if they're Swedish, Korean or from Zimbabwe... As long as they're good.
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And the most ironic thing about this story right now is that Koreans are saying:"Good guy Greg".
So funny hahaha.
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The problem is that the match is shown to thousands of people, not caring 100% is fine especially since you are out, but outright cheating the viewers out of a match is the exact kind of thing that will keep esports back.
If pro gamers can mass up 1000s of games on ladder, then they should have the decency to at least play their matches out with a "nothing to lose" mindset
Are you really that busy that you cant play a 10-20 min match that is seen by alot of people? You are a progamer you live for the spotlight and the competition, at least that is how it should be
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On December 13 2011 23:24 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 23:20 graan wrote:On December 13 2011 23:09 Vardant wrote:On December 13 2011 23:07 Jibba wrote:
That rarely happens at all. What are you talking about? Players like TMac who admit to giving up get reamed for it. Wasn't there a football match at Olympic games or WC or something, where both teams needed a tie to advance so they didn't play at all? IIRC there was no punishment. U mean the shame of gijon between germany and austria ? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nichtangriffspakt_von_Gijónthey even changed the system after that, huuuge scandal - nobody got banned though.. I personaly lost all respect for naniwa, which was left in the first place. He should not get banned from gom, cause he did not break any set rules ( so i recall.. ). Don't give yourself that much credit. Like most of those on this board, you think if the one being an asshole isn't Idra, then it's unacceptable. You didn't have a shred of respect for Naniwa before this.
I dont give myself any credit, why should i ? You are assuming way to much..
I dont have to be fan of every sc2 player out there, if someone acts like naniwa today i just have no respect for that person. I'm no idra fan either, nothing wrong with that, is it ?
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EPT
