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Blizzard is, on the whole, a company that does seem to get things right most of the time. Most of their expansion packs (Frozen Throne, Burning Crusade, BW) have added a great deal to the game, and took away nothing that wasn't an explicit problem. They have demonstrated that they were not afraid to change core parts of the game even if these changes would cause controversy, such as toning down 40-man raiding into 25-man for easier organisation.
That is until the details of HotS were announced. For those more concerned about the multiplayer aspect of the game, which I take for granted is everyone here, we need to ask - why is Blizzard pushing the reset button?
No expansion has ever removed units from multiplayer - except HotS.
By removing I also mean reworking, which is essentially taking out an old unit and putting in a new one. This is essentially an admission from them that the unit wasn't working out as they had intended it to work - perhaps most of us will say the reaper.
And then there are units/abilities that were PLAIN USELESS, and never saw fit to fix.
It does not take a genius to realise that Carriers ae worthless. BCs were worthless too; most of the time the risk involved in the switch to them was not really justifiable. Mothership, etc...
Was the Carrier a product of bad design, or a flat out refusal to balance the game? Carriers were a wonderful unit to see in action in BW, and nothing much in its design or role has changed. You can point to reasons such as "improved AI, better marines, metagame" etc. but I assure you the bottom line is that there is nothing very wrong with the Carrier other than the fact that it flat out sucks.
And so it's gone, just like that!
The scout was the worst unit in BW. It didn't have a design flaw, it just wasn't needed very often. Was it removed? No. Does it still suck? Yes. Does it have a place somewhere in the game? Maybe negligibly. Does that hurt Protoss in any way? Probably not. But could it be balanced into the game? I would definitely say yes.
The removal of a unit is a sign that something has gone very, very wrong with the game - that the unit is essentially "unbalanceable".
Yet you remind yourself that a new expansion will eventually come after HotS. Is Blizzard simply going to continue to create these "unbalanceable" units, refuse to balance them, and simply wipe them off the chalkboard again in a year? True, the release of a new expansion is always going to re-define the metagame, but it shouldn't take away stuff - only add to it.
Does anyone think that the replicator is going to be a balanceable unit? Is it a "Protoss" kind of unit, or just a cool idea that someone came up with? Is making the Thor a 600 mineral, t4 unit going to encourage use?
Irradiate killed clumped mutas. Valks killed clumped mutas. Some of their roles did overlap, does that mean that one was redundant and should therefore be removed? For the record, Terran still lacks an flying anti-air AOE unit/ability that is usable even after the HotS preview (here's hoping that will change).
Phoenixes are not a good enough solution to mutas. The Corsair was a proven solution to mutas because you could micro them in such a way that the mutas could not attack buildings and engage corsairs simultaneously. This is impossible to do with phoenixes in SC2. The Corsair (with splash + graviton beam) would probably have been a better unit, but some people somehow dislike the idea of old BW units being in SC2. But the fact was that Corsairs worked and Phoenixes currently don't. It is strange that the Carrier was changed to fill this role it was never meant to fill when the answer clearly lay in the Phoenix/mechanics.
I think that's where the buck has to stop.
The deeper flaws in the game have to be examined and thought about FIRST, before trying to come up with fancy new units. That way, less mistakes are going to occur. Does the "ball" gameplay make AOE too powerful? Does it compact massive amounts DPS into such a small surface area such that spread-out units like interceptors simply evaporate? Or, rather disingenuously, is the ball vs ball gameplay just boring to watch?
Points to think about.
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Can we stop these kind of thread please?
Removing units from expansion doesn't mean it is a negative thing at all, it is replaced by another unit that suit well along with everything new in the game and can fullfill that role.
You can't make that claim because all the new units will make the whole matchups entirely different.
This is also why that unit removed doesn't mean it is not imba/under-use and should be removed in WoL.
One prime example is overseer, do you honestly think viper would be a better detection unit for zerg?
Given the cost, the movement speed and spawning speed, NO.
Was overseer unbalanced? Hell no :/
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Jebus dude. I am pretty sure they billion threads on similar topics are hard enough. Blizzard is building this game and it isn't finished. In fact it wont be finished until at least 6 months after the third expansion I am sure.
I love that blizzard is thinking up new things. WoL and HoTS are two different games. They can have different units. You really need to chill and relax.
Also... refuse to balance units? Did you somehow miss the patches since release?  Sheesh
People like you are why the internet is so angry.
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On October 26 2011 18:53 shadymmj wrote:
No expansion has ever removed units from multiplayer - except HotS.
What ? Pretty sure TFT revamped some units, not sure about BW.
Not to mention that Hots is basically the 3rd expansion ever made by blizzard for an RTS game ( i don't include wc2 since the gener was to new back then to talk about things like balance/esport/multiplayer like we are now )
And overseer/mothership/carrier were seen so rarely ( 1 overseer for detection was almost always there but for anything else there were "better" things to spend money into ) and had really bad graphics so replacing them is oky, they were out of the game since day 1 when non used them.
The new goliath is basically a small thor so thats not even that much of a "revamp".
Edit: looked at op sig... yeah
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OP may need to check his signature before posting this stuff.
It took Blizzard many years to balance BW, this game needs time too. You can't really base an argument with nothing to base on, if your just going by the previews for HOTS.
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On October 26 2011 19:05 ZiegFeld wrote:
OP may need to check his signature before posting this stuff.
It took Blizzard many years to balance BW, this game needs time too. You can't really base an argument with nothing to base on, if your just going by the previews for HOTS.
Ahh yes... Perhaps this is a long thought out troll post. Apparently he shouldn't be worried about it since BW is the only game to him
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If this game will be Esports step in to the big world, embrace change till perfection.
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guys c´mon this game is still in beta and blizzard nows....
No need to point out anything to this company
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Carrier hasn't been removed!
It's just had its interceptors removed
And had thor weapons added
And been renamed
And got new art
And then was made (possibly) good
Silly people thinking the unit was removed. Tsk tsk
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I don't see this thread going anywhere to be honest. Removing units is not a bad thing at all, it's actually really good. It's like the mappool, it's just not good with 20 maps in it.
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They should've removed the scout, and they're right to be removing the units they are. They serve no purpose. Having useless units clogging up the game is...not good in any way.
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Oh, another 'Blizzard is changing the game and I don't like it, everybody rally together because we know how to make games better than they do' thread.
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By removing I also mean reworking, which is essentially taking out an old unit and putting in a new one. This is essentially an admission from them that the unit wasn't working out as they had intended it to work - perhaps most of us will say the reaper.
Since when is it bad to admit you did something wrong ?
For example, if you would admit it was wrong from you to do this thread, you would sound much more smarter.
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Yes, the Carrier hasn't changed much from BW, but almost everything else has. It is useless in SCII because Vikings building carriers when you're opponent is building Vikings/Corruptors to deal with the Colossi is utterly retarded.
A lot of their stuff is in testing right now, so I'd stop complaining that the game is imbalanced, especially since you've never played it. I do agree with you about the Replicant (oh how much I hate that unit) but that doesn't mean I'm going to shove a stick up Blizzard's ass until the unit goes away, they'll probably believe it's /whatever/ and not put it into the game.
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Just because "you" hate what they presented for HoTS doesn't mean you have to point out all the tiny little flaws.... they said they didn't want a "ball vs ball" type of game so they are trying new stuff. If they were too scared to not try new stuff then they wouldn't get anywhere. Look on the positive side for once. The swarm host is AWESOME :D
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If anything the community needs to cut Blizz some slack, everything in SC2 Blizz has added/changed has been met with a lot of bashing
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On October 26 2011 19:13 Yaotzin wrote:
They should've removed the scout, and they're right to be removing the units they are. They serve no purpose. Having useless units clogging up the game is...not good in any way.
Good! This is the point I want to seize on.
Couple years ago, Blizzard assured us that sc2 would be the ultimate online rts (by sc2 I mean WoL). They said that the mothership and thor would be fantastic units, so on, so forth. By making so many changes, they are essentially admitting that they made so many mistakes, even with an extra long and extra large beta.
What makes you think they'll get it right this time?
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this is what i get from your post:
On October 26 2011 18:53 shadymmj wrote:
there are units/abilities that were PLAIN USELESS
Carriers ae worthless
BCs were worthless
Mothership, etc...
Carrier a product of bad design
Carriers were wonderful in BW
Carrier flat out sucks.
And it's gone!
something has gone very, very wrong
Irradiate killed clumped mutas
Valks killed clumped mutas
Terran still lacks an flying anti-air AOE unit/ability
Phoenixes are not a good enough
The Corsair was a proven solution to mutas
This is impossible to do with phoenixes in SC2
The Corsair would probably have been a better unit
the fact was that Corsairs worked
Phoenixes currently don't
I think that's where the buck has to stop.
"ball" gameplay make AOE too powerful
ball vs ball gameplay just boring to watch
i think it speaks for itself.
they're different games. it's that simple.
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On October 26 2011 19:21 shadymmj wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 19:13 Yaotzin wrote:
They should've removed the scout, and they're right to be removing the units they are. They serve no purpose. Having useless units clogging up the game is...not good in any way. Good! This is the point I want to seize on. Couple years ago, Blizzard assured us that sc2 would be the ultimate online rts (by sc2 I mean WoL). They said that the mothership and thor would be fantastic units, so on, so forth. By making so many changes, they are essentially admitting that they made so many mistakes, even with an extra long and extra large beta. What makes you think they'll get it right this time?
Why do you even care ? The game is not about finding balance, it is about finding strategies that will make you win. You just have to adapt all along.
If you think you can do better, you still can create your own esport ultimate mega gosu bw rts game.
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Let them experiment. Why shouldn't they. I don't have a problem with removing old units. If there adding three units to each race per expansion it only makes sense that some units must be removed.
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On October 26 2011 19:27 yarders wrote:
Let them experiment. Why shouldn't they. I don't have a problem with removing old units. If there adding three units to each race per expansion it only makes sense that some units must be removed.
They even have explained why they had to have a small unit pool.
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Old expansions like AoE2 into AoE2:tC, AoM into AoM:TT, SC into SC:BW, never removed units because they had one thing in common.
They did not see the game com a competitive point of view.
SC2 is being designed as a competitive game rather than a "fun game to play", and if there is the need to remove a unit because it will be useless, they will do it.
No point in overlapping units, for instance, or leaving useless units. Think of the BW Scout, as someone mentioned up there.
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On October 26 2011 19:21 shadymmj wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 19:13 Yaotzin wrote:
They should've removed the scout, and they're right to be removing the units they are. They serve no purpose. Having useless units clogging up the game is...not good in any way. Good! This is the point I want to seize on. Couple years ago, Blizzard assured us that sc2 would be the ultimate online rts (by sc2 I mean WoL). They said that the mothership and thor would be fantastic units, so on, so forth. By making so many changes, they are essentially admitting that they made so many mistakes, even with an extra long and extra large beta.
Er, yes. They've said as much....
What makes you think they'll get it right this time?
Practice makes perfect? SC1 had serious issues, BW addressed them.
Heck they have 2 shots at it this time. Good chance they can get it right.
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BC's are worthless? come on...
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On October 26 2011 19:21 shadymmj wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 19:13 Yaotzin wrote:
They should've removed the scout, and they're right to be removing the units they are. They serve no purpose. Having useless units clogging up the game is...not good in any way. Good! This is the point I want to seize on. Couple years ago, Blizzard assured us that sc2 would be the ultimate online rts (by sc2 I mean WoL). They said that the mothership and thor would be fantastic units, so on, so forth. By making so many changes, they are essentially admitting that they made so many mistakes, even with an extra long and extra large beta. What makes you think they'll get it right this time?
Why are you "building a case" against Blizzard?
You are just indulging in bitter speculation, instead of fairly judging the finished product. Try writing something normal and positive for once?
/getting so tired of these type of posters
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On October 26 2011 19:27 yarders wrote:
Let them experiment. Why shouldn't they. I don't have a problem with removing old units. If there adding three units to each race per expansion it only makes sense that some units must be removed.
because if they fixed the underlying mechanics within the game, the old units wouldn't have such difficult-to-resolve problems, and would therefore be able to be balanced.
adding new units is not a bad thing, but adding new units without giving thought to what made the old ones a problem - that's the issue I have outlined in this thread.
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On October 26 2011 19:21 shadymmj wrote:
Good! This is the point I want to seize on.
Couple years ago, Blizzard assured us that sc2 would be the ultimate online rts (by sc2 I mean WoL). They said that the mothership and thor would be fantastic units, so on, so forth. By making so many changes, they are essentially admitting that they made so many mistakes, even with an extra long and extra large beta.
What makes you think they'll get it right this time?
It's very hard to balance an asymmetric game, even with extensive play-testing (see WoW, TF2, and BW). Sure they make mistakes, but WoL is by and large a very balanced game. There's no point in keeping a unit in the game if its function largely overlaps with other units, but you can't know what a unit's function is for sure until the metagame has had time to establish itself.
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What is wrong with the underlying mechanics?
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Blizzard are the best at this in the world. Please stop criticising the best in the world, they are amazing and deserve our respect. We play their game, they dont play ours
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Could someone explain me Blizzards tought process that lead to the Tempest please?
"Huge" Mutaballs are a problem because Phoenix can't deal with them.
---> Remove the Carrier (instead of buffing/balancing it) and put in a Corsair on roids.
Does this make sense to anyone?
Does anyone think this is a good idea?
Either "help" the Phoenix to better deal with huge balls or "change it/remove it".. Don't remove the iconic Protoss unit just because you are not able to figure out how to balance Colossi/Corruptor-Viking/Carrier relationships...
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Even if I think they are not that good at their job, they are doing it full time.
I reassure myself knowing that they have better tools than us to address the balance problem.
In term of race philosophy or orientation, even if I really would like some stuffs of my own, it is their game, their choices.
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On October 26 2011 19:35 Velr wrote:
Could someone explain me Blizzards tought process that lead to the Tempest please?
"Huge" Mutaballs are a problem because Phoenix can't deal with them.
---> Remove the Carrier (instead of buffing/balancing it) and put in a Corsair on roids.
Does this make sense to anyone?
Does anyone think this is a good idea?
Uh, should they have given interceptors and AoE attack instead or something? What do you suggest they did?
Either "help" the Phoenix to better deal with huge balls or "change it/remove it".. Don't remove the iconic Protoss unit just because you are not able to figure out how to balance Colossi/Corruptor-Viking/Carrier relationships...
The phoenix doesn't need help, it just doesn't fulfil the role of stopping mass air. Against mass air you need either: a godly single target unit (phoenix can't be that strong) or aoe.
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Carriers aren't useless, nor are BCs. They haven't been figured out 100% and are situational units, which is not anything close to "useless."
Honestly most of what you said is just flat out wrong.
On October 26 2011 19:35 Velr wrote:
Could someone explain me Blizzards tought process that lead to the Tempest please?
"Huge" Mutaballs are a problem because Phoenix can't deal with them.
---> Remove the Carrier (instead of buffing/balancing it) and put in a Corsair on roids.
Does this make sense to anyone?
Does anyone think this is a good idea?
Either "help" the Phoenix to better deal with huge balls or "change it/remove it".. Don't remove the iconic Protoss unit just because you are not able to figure out how to balance Colossi/Corruptor-Viking/Carrier relationships...
The phoenix isn't the corsair. It's a decent AA unit but it's more of a harassment unit than anything. Although I'd rather just have the tempest and the carrier, rather than having to remove one.
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On October 26 2011 19:21 shadymmj wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 19:13 Yaotzin wrote:
They should've removed the scout, and they're right to be removing the units they are. They serve no purpose. Having useless units clogging up the game is...not good in any way. Good! This is the point I want to seize on. Couple years ago, Blizzard assured us that sc2 would be the ultimate online rts (by sc2 I mean WoL). They said that the mothership and thor would be fantastic units, so on, so forth. By making so many changes, they are essentially admitting that they made so many mistakes, even with an extra long and extra large beta. What makes you think they'll get it right this time?
Dusty said that they where wiling to take risks to make game play more fun (like they did in BW).
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On October 26 2011 19:38 Skwid1g wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 19:35 Velr wrote:
Could someone explain me Blizzards tought process that lead to the Tempest please?
"Huge" Mutaballs are a problem because Phoenix can't deal with them.
---> Remove the Carrier (instead of buffing/balancing it) and put in a Corsair on roids.
Does this make sense to anyone?
Does anyone think this is a good idea?
Either "help" the Phoenix to better deal with huge balls or "change it/remove it".. Don't remove the iconic Protoss unit just because you are not able to figure out how to balance Colossi/Corruptor-Viking/Carrier relationships...
The phoenix isn't the corsair. It's a decent AA unit but it's more of a harassment unit than anything. Although I'd rather just have the tempest and the carrier, rather than having to remove one.
Wouldn't be surprised if they do exactly that, honestly. This is the second time they've removed the carrier in favor of a unit called the tempest(very different units, though) during SC2's development.
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Lets create an esport counsil to have our voice heard at blizzard! Then let's use politics to label peoples with their opinions about the best stuff for the game. Then lets establish votes to chose our represent at blizzard. Then let's make donation to sponsor campains for theses elections.
The model works for our society, didn't it ? Humm... wait a minut?!? xD
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On October 26 2011 19:29 Zephirdd wrote:
Old expansions like AoE2 into AoE2:tC, AoM into AoM:TT, SC into SC:BW, never removed units because they had one thing in common.
They did not see the game com a competitive point of view.
SC2 is being designed as a competitive game rather than a "fun game to play", and if there is the need to remove a unit because it will be useless, they will do it.
No point in overlapping units, for instance, or leaving useless units. Think of the BW Scout, as someone mentioned up there.
its not the competitive point of view, its the fact that having 30 units per race is a clusterfuck nightmare to even approach balancing, and even worse, new players might leave the game simply because its to complicated.
blizz has stated previously something along the lines of "in SC1, it was believed to be too few units, with 7-9 units per race, so they added some in BW and made it 10-12 units per race, and 10-12 was found to be a good number of units, not too few, and not too many, however, it was also agreed upon that a few more and it would be too much, then came WOL, where blizz designed each race to fit the standard of BW, 10-12 units, because they found that that is a a good number of units, however, this means it is impossible to just cram more units in there for the exapnsions, and as such, some units will be removed to make room for the new units."
if OP have any complaints about this, please turn to the blizz forum.
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On October 26 2011 19:38 Skwid1g wrote:
The phoenix isn't the corsair. It's a decent AA unit but it's more of a harassment unit than anything. Although I'd rather just have the tempest and the carrier, rather than having to remove one.
It would make endgame Protoss unkillable as either carrier/collo or tempest/collo would be unbeatable. With only tempest/collo it can be beaten by heavy ground army.
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
I don't think this thread is even worthy of discussion. You don't even have a main point. Your general thesis seems to be "Blizzard is bad."
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EPT
