|
IdrA said you can defend a 6pool with a 14 pool. No, you can't.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/14613891/Cant defend.SC2Replay
Bunker rushes cannot be defended when terran hides the second rax, makes tons of marines then pushes.
Siege tanks kills all zerg units. Roaches, lings, banelings. Zerg cannot beat terran.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/14613891/noob.SC2Replay
I was trying to improve this week. I got cheesed 9 times today. 2 wins 11 losses on fucking diamond league. Im quitting this shitty race. Zerg cannot do timing pushes. Zerg does not have a proper cheese. Zergs gets raped by siege tanks.
The Question itself
the question is how the fuck terran made 80 siege tanks while cheeseing.
Helping me does not help me. I just keep forgeting to scout, to make tech...
The problem is time passes too quick in starcraft, I look at the clock it says 8:00 game minutes. I look again 10 seconds later it says 28 minutes and I'm still on 2 bases.
Look at the ZvT replay, the bunker rush lasts 10 minutes. Wtf is that? and how do I fix it?
User was warned for this post
|
Zerg is a responsive race, you don't imrpove regardless of race by cheesing, and last time i check muta's do pretty good against tanks ^^
|
I understand your problem (same situation here, but just plat).
However that doesnt give you the right to spam the Strategy Forum with whine :O Read the guidlines please =)
|
its not spam, im asking how to beat this
|
|
|
On August 30 2011 09:22 DW-Unrec wrote:IdrA said you can defend a 6pool with a 14 pool. No, you can't. http://dl.dropbox.com/u/14613891/Cant defend.SC2ReplayBunker rushes cannot be defended when terran hides the second rax, makes tons of marines then pushes. Siege tanks kills all zerg units. Roaches, lings, banelings. Zerg cannot beat terran. http://dl.dropbox.com/u/14613891/noob.SC2ReplayI was trying to improve this week. I got cheesed 9 times today. 2 wins 11 losses on fucking diamond league. Im quitting this shitty race. Zerg cannot do timing pushes. Zerg does not have a proper cheese. Zergs gets raped by siege tanks.
There's no question in here. Are you asking about how to scout? how to effectively defend these cheeses/allins? You're not really giving us much to go by, especially because you're "quitting this shitty race." So... what exactly are you looking for from the strategy forumgoers exactly?
|
On August 30 2011 09:29 las91 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2011 09:22 DW-Unrec wrote:IdrA said you can defend a 6pool with a 14 pool. No, you can't. http://dl.dropbox.com/u/14613891/Cant defend.SC2ReplayBunker rushes cannot be defended when terran hides the second rax, makes tons of marines then pushes. Siege tanks kills all zerg units. Roaches, lings, banelings. Zerg cannot beat terran. http://dl.dropbox.com/u/14613891/noob.SC2ReplayI was trying to improve this week. I got cheesed 9 times today. 2 wins 11 losses on fucking diamond league. Im quitting this shitty race. Zerg cannot do timing pushes. Zerg does not have a proper cheese. Zergs gets raped by siege tanks. There's no question in here. Are you asking about how to scout? how to effectively defend these cheeses/allins? You're not really giving us much to go by, especially because you're "quitting this shitty race." So... what exactly are you looking for from the strategy forumgoers exactly?
On August 30 2011 09:26 DW-Unrec wrote:
its not spam, im asking how to beat this
|
"1.5 Dealing With 2 Rax
15 Hatch is the best build for countering 2 Rax for a few reasons:
1: It gives more Larva. Yes, Pool first gives just as many Larva in the long run but until that first Inject pops you’ll have less of them. And when it pops it’s already too late cause he’ll have seized control of your natural and walled you in.
2: It provides Creep and thus allows you to make a Spine Crawler. This is crucial against prolonged aggression. The Spine Crawler actually completes before those extra Zerglings from a Pool first inject would.
The proper response to a 2 Rax is to cut Drones at 16, get an Overlord and bring all but 4 Drones to your natural to fight him off until you can get Zerglings out. When Zerglings and later the Spine Crawler comes out you can send Drones to mine in your Natural. If he then comes again with increased strength can bring out your Drones again. Also, get your first Queen in the natural.
If he 2 Raxes you but pulls back without engaging both of you will be set back around 1 minute. Each situation is unique though."
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=176625
Look at the stickies in the recommended section. If you still can't find anything, ask in a help me thread.
|
Hmm I would disagree with the OP. Have you ever watched July zerg play sc2? He is known for his super aggressive play against all races. Although zerg is reactionary there are still timing pushes that are valid strategies. My favorite is the LosirA roach ling timing push against any early protoss expansion.
14 ext
13 pool
15 ovi
4 lings when pool + queen
19 speed
19 expand
21 Queen (lay down tumor go to expansion)
roach warren when hatch pops
8 roaches
Send roaches out and rally lings behind the lings will catch up to the roaches as they run across the map.
|
What disgusts me, as well as other people I'm sure, about your post is you seem not open to learning, or improving. It is all too obvious from the first line, you refute what a highly respected pro said, and call it impossible even though you just handled it horribly.
For the 6 pool:
Take down the spine, that is a verrry important part of the rush and you can't just allow it to go up. You also didn't get the solid hits you needed to with mineral stacked drones, it's better to mineral walk 2 groups in opposite directions to guarantee the surround.
Your ZvT plan needs some re-vamping. Focus on controlling the map with mutalisks, study top level standard play and try to emulate it.
|
URec, I'm going to be on for awhile tonight, add me, we'll do some games. I think I can help solve your problem. shaft@claneat.com is my realID.
But I ditto everything said by everyone about your attitude. Open yourself to new ideas, and assume anything you try but fails, failed because of you, not because it doesn't work. And explore new ways of doing that same thing, in a manner that will work for you. We'll talk more about this 
|
Get it together... zergs are doing good these days.
|
your Country52797 Posts
+ Show Spoiler +Idra is way better than you.
Mutalisks, broodlords own tanks.
L2Scout.
^Brutal description.
At least TRY to analyze your replays and learn from them.
Since this is a balance whine, I expect to see ban/close.
|
Well just watched the 6 pool (which is a 7 pool) game.
First of on XelNaga, send your 2nd Ovi to your gold rocks, you will see early zerglings sooner, so you can prepare mentaly. Second, for drone control, you have to send 3-4 drones to the spine, if you dont, you lose (though in this game the spine didnt matter all that much). Your drone micro could have been better, if you get a surround on him, its over. 6-8 vs. 14 Pool is just a question of micro, it is beatable, just go straight for the spine. Also I would recommend cutting the queen. It did pretty much nothing, and you didnt have enough minerals for more lings.
Loading 2nd game right now, will edit later.
€dit:
Well for a 2 Rax, you held it off pretty well I think. Sure, you could have started the spine earlier, after spotting 2 Rax, and maybe brought more drones for the first push, but you were only slightly behind economywise. Then you go into allin mode. No drones, very very late third (which wont be saturated). If you had squeezed in more drones, taken your third earlier and stopped wasting units, you could have easily outproduced your opponent. But on equal bases zerg loses.
And btw, 2 Rax is by no means cheese, as a zerg you just have to expect it, because its such a strong opener. You didnt scout early. You lost the game because you allined. Especially as zerg it is extremely hard to get back into the game after such an (failed) allin.
Just my 2 cents
And : pls dont bm ._. I´m sad everytime someone bms, if you want to improve try gging every time, it keeps a positive mindset.
|
First game, you let a spine go up in your base and you were wayyyyyyyy too slow with making lings.
Second game, you had excess of 50 energy on your queens while floating around 1k minerals for a good five minute period.
Before you start discussing balance, you should double check and make sure your mechanics aren't silver league.
|
Troll post. People please dont respond
However, there are many timings. Watch some julyzerg. If you actually have a question ill try and answer.
|
I believe the premise of this thread is that a Diamond player knows more about the Zerg race than IdrA. I feel like this maaaaaayyyyy be slightly inaccurate.
I've been able to defend 6 pool + drones even with 15 hatch 14 pool at Master level. Do you think it's possible your micro needs improvement? That your Overlord scouting patterns could tell you much earlier if Lings are coming?
It seems like they are useful things to do in the case of 6 pools.
Did you see DRG stomp Nada? He lost his natural hatchery to a 11-11 rax, macro'd up mass Ling Baneling and won anyways. I guess Zerg can beat Terrans, just sacrifice your natural Hatchery!
|
There arent dangerous tank pushes until like... when u'd have broodlords out anyways. When i make a macro hatch of 2 base and early evo for +1 and threat of banshee, it pretty much holds all early terran pushes with just lings and a sprinkling of banelings... especially 3 tank marine push
|
On August 30 2011 09:38 Sleight wrote:
I believe the premise of this thread is that a Diamond player knows more about the Zerg race than IdrA. I feel like this maaaaaayyyyy be slightly inaccurate.
I've been able to defend 6 pool + drones even with 15 hatch 14 pool at Master level. Do you think it's possible your micro needs improvement? That your Overlord scouting patterns could tell you much earlier if Lings are coming?
It seems like they are useful things to do in the case of 6 pools.
Did you see DRG stomp Nada? He lost his natural hatchery to a 11-11 rax, macro'd up mass Ling Baneling and won anyways. I guess Zerg can beat Terrans, just sacrifice your natural Hatchery!
we're born the same day bro :D <3 <3
|
you're using a bunch of absolutes. "zerg can't beat terran" "tanks kill every zerg unit". I dont know where you're asking for help during that.
zerg does have cheese : baneling bust, roach rushes, roach ling all-ins
zerg can do timing pushes, its just all-ins if they do timing pushes.
you need to edit your OP that way you don't sound ignorant that way we feel some sort of sympathy for you. Give us some sort of motivation to help you.
|
have your overlord positioned near your entrance so that you can see around where the SCV will be making the bunker.
i usually scout the 6pool early enough to throw down my pool and when the lings get to my base i'll be about the get my own lings coming, and i run drones till they pop and sit them in the mineral line with my drones and get a spine. after that i'm ahead and can usually win. as for tanks, get some mutas or roaches with burrow or something like that. tanks don't do as well against the tanky roaches. mutas are a better option IMO because it gives you map control.
As for zerg have no cheese, first i'm not a massive fan of cheese, i prefer to play to improve than just cheese my wins. you mentioned 6pool earlier on so it must have a few cheeses like that, otherwise recently i've seen really fast banes be used a bit. might be something there, i can't really help with cheese as much since i don't do them much lol.
As for timing pushes, i usually see a timing push with zerg as when an important upgrade (like ling/bling speed finishes, or +1 or fast +2 attack) or if i see something i can react to. zerg have to react to what is sent against them, and also just overrun the other guy with more stuff and with upgrades potentially better stuff.
I'm diamond random and I win most of my zerg games. hope this helps a bit
EDIT: and also this wasn't really worded well, i think the questions would have been better if you had focused more on the questions and left out lines like "i'm quitting this shitty race" because i think it'll draw more negative responses
|
I can sympathize with the OP (despite being Terran) - we all go on tilt and have epic losing streaks sometimes, regardless of whether it's our own fault, the matchmaking system's, or just massive strokes of bad luck.
Still, I'm shocked this thread hasn't yet been closed.
|
the question is how the fuck terran made 80 siege tanks while cheeseing.
Helping me does not help me. I just keep forgeting to scout, to make tech...
The problem is time passes too quick in starcraft, I look at the clock it says 8:00 game minutes. I look again 10 seconds later it says 28 minutes and I'm still on 2 bases.
Look at the ZvT replay, the bunker rush lasts 10 minutes. Wtf is that? and how do I fix it?
|
On August 30 2011 09:30 DW-Unrec wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2011 09:29 las91 wrote:On August 30 2011 09:22 DW-Unrec wrote:IdrA said you can defend a 6pool with a 14 pool. No, you can't. http://dl.dropbox.com/u/14613891/Cant defend.SC2ReplayBunker rushes cannot be defended when terran hides the second rax, makes tons of marines then pushes. Siege tanks kills all zerg units. Roaches, lings, banelings. Zerg cannot beat terran. http://dl.dropbox.com/u/14613891/noob.SC2ReplayI was trying to improve this week. I got cheesed 9 times today. 2 wins 11 losses on fucking diamond league. Im quitting this shitty race. Zerg cannot do timing pushes. Zerg does not have a proper cheese. Zergs gets raped by siege tanks. There's no question in here. Are you asking about how to scout? how to effectively defend these cheeses/allins? You're not really giving us much to go by, especially because you're "quitting this shitty race." So... what exactly are you looking for from the strategy forumgoers exactly? Show nested quote +On August 30 2011 09:26 DW-Unrec wrote:
its not spam, im asking how to beat this
What a useful requote. Anyway.
To start off, you never even saw the 7 pool until he had a spine crawler going up in your base. Now I play Toss, but I would imagine on a 2 player map, where cheese is easier to execute, I would think a drone scout would be helpful. Your first instinct when the zerglings come in is wrong, and you lose a couple drones because of an early attack into them. You drone drill later but that should be the very first thing you do to save your outliers and possibly get a zergling kill. Also, why get metabolic boost while there are zerglings and a spine crawler in your base? that 100 minerals could be used towards a queen or 4 zerglings. The meta boost can come later, you need to survive NOW.
Basically your drone drill needs improvement, what you do is spam right click the minerals until the lings are attacking you, then a click. It will surround a couple, possibly kill them off. Basically stall until you get lings, a queen, possibly a spine crawler if you can afford it.
As for your ZvT, first off, what's with the 13 gas 12p? I thought basically every zerg opening revolved around 15h for terrans. Again, I play toss but... 16h15p, 15h15p... etc. As for the bunker rush, you have to take this more seriously. 6 lings and 2 drones isn't going to cut it with half a dozen marines and a couple scvs. At this point, you need to pull at least 3 or 4 more drones, make a couple more lings and you should be ok with nice surrounds and stuff.
Why go infestation pit when he's giong mass rine in close position shattered? 2base infestor is really not that hard to deal with, you just need a lot of tanks. Roach warren (I believe IdrA says this) means you're dead against a Terran. Roaches get creamed by tanks. Why no spire/baneling nest? You can actually support some form of doubleling muta on two base, whereas you need 3 or more to do infestor/ling. Just weird decision making all around, I'm not even going to go into the bunker rush because honestly he should have killed your hatch and you would have been dead. Find some practice partners, watch some vods of really good Z players (NesTea, Coca, Ret). Good luck with Zerg.
EDIT: finished watching the ZvT, you're dead at around the 15:30 mark. Anything after this is irrelevant. Look at what you did before this point.
|
On August 30 2011 09:22 DW-Unrec wrote:IdrA said you can defend a 6pool with a 14 pool. No, you can't. http://dl.dropbox.com/u/14613891/Cant defend.SC2ReplayBunker rushes cannot be defended when terran hides the second rax, makes tons of marines then pushes. Siege tanks kills all zerg units. Roaches, lings, banelings. Zerg cannot beat terran. http://dl.dropbox.com/u/14613891/noob.SC2ReplayI was trying to improve this week. I got cheesed 9 times today. 2 wins 11 losses on fucking diamond league. Im quitting this shitty race. Zerg cannot do timing pushes. Zerg does not have a proper cheese. Zergs gets raped by siege tanks. anti-ban edit: the question is how the fuck terran made 80 siege tanks while cheeseing. Helping me does not help me. I just keep forgeting to scout, to make tech... The problem is time passes too quick in starcraft, I look at the clock it says 8:00 game minutes. I look again 10 seconds later it says 28 minutes and I'm still on 2 bases. Look at the ZvT replay, the bunker rush lasts 10 minutes. Wtf is that? and how do I fix it?
Read the guidelines on posting to the forum. Stop whining. And l2p.
|
Meh youll get warned for this OP. And it will be closed soon. People on TL are actually really helpful, jsut ask a question XD
|
it would be cool if people on TL read all posts before posting your own.
|
i would absolutely have to suggest watching some DRG replays especially from Raleigh. While you may not be able to follow his play style step-for-step, his general mindset / priorities / decisions make his opponents look like absolute crap. Like, seriously. he dances around noobs, and makes it look EZ
|
I'm not sure if you're completely... but there are statistics that show the contrary.
Be smart.
|
Is this thread a joke? Is the OP actually serious?
|
i think OP belongs in the "Letting off steam" thread
Edit: and lol at this guy knowing better than Idra. If 14 pool couldnt beat 6 pool, people woulda been cheesing 6 pool enough in ZvZ for Zergs to start going 10 pool or earlier as standard
|
People, read the whole post. Answer "the question itself"
|
Urec, you've already said helping you doesn't help you, so what do you want from us? Find some bench marks to scout by, and start doing it. I like to send my scout in every match up after my first overlord pops -- ovie pops, queue two drones, send a drone that was previously mining to scout.
|
Great. Please quit. You'll find you have the exact same problems as the other 2 races when you switch over, it's not the Zerg that's the problem.
|
Please try to improve your attitude a bit. Without changing your gameplay at all, a change in your attitude will help you improve a lot.
|
Whine Whine, you can defend a 6pool with a 14 pool and even a 15 hatch 14 pool can hold it off if your micros is stronger. You can tell if its a 2 rax rush by scouting the gas of the terran around 15-17 supply if no gas then you know its a 2rax or fast expo and you should prepare to defend or show aggression.
Because you can't do something doesn't mean it can't be done, generally it will be your lack of skill that stops you from doing what the pros say is possible.
|
Several things I am noticing in the ZvT game:
1. when you patrolled the ramp with your drone early on, that was earlier than the bunker rush comes. His was a 11/11 with close positions, so that's about as fast as it will be, and it was still a fair bit later than when you did this. This drone could have been used to scout earlier, and you probably would have even made it into his base before he built the 2nd depot.
2. There are many times when you engaged with your lings when you didn't really have the numbers to do it - you were very cost ineffective in this way. Your very first engagement was 6 lings and 2 drones vs 1 scv and 4 marines (other scv was building). you pretty much want to have 2 lings per marine that you engagement MINIMUM or you will likely lose all the lings (and drones too usually) without killing everything they have. I'm watching at like 4:45 here. If you had waited for the 2 lings about to pop, you likely could have handled the 4 marines + 1 scv easily and cleared up the rush since the bunker wasn't down. On top of this, you were attacking the scv for a bit before running past him to attack the marines. That's what the terran wants. the scv deal crap for dps and are melee - run past them and focus the marines down. The only exception to this rule is if his bunker is about to finish, then you can kill that scv building it. After this bad engagement, the terran was allowed to finish his bunker, which many times wins the game outright.
3. You could have started your spine crawler much earlier. you had the minerals to do it for quite a while before you put yours down - watch the replay to notice when you generally can do so.
4. Close positions on maps like these are reallllly bad for ZvT. It's basically imbalanced - there's a reason just about every tournament does not allow these close spawns. Nothing we can do there though
5. Surprisingly enough, after clearing up the bunkers, you are actually in an *okay* position... he hasn't taken his natural yet, factories haven't even finished, and you surpass him in drone count with that round of 8 drones. Going to edit this after I watch the rest..
---------------------------
6. Okay so that big attack was pretty bad for you. When there's that big of a ball of marines, an almost pure speedling army is going to get destroyed by it. You need banelings or infestors to deal with it (which you did get later but you didn't have them for the attack, and paid for it).
7. You never built a 3rd hatchery anywhere. When you go for any kind of ling heavy play, you pretty much need a 3rd hatchery once you get saturated 2 bases. With the game that was going on here, a macro hatch instead of an expo hatch would have been just fine to allow you to keep up on production.
8. Your macro was slipping hard during the attack you did. With an army comp like that, once you get the surround off with the lings you can take a moment to hotkey your hatcheries and start remaking stuff - not much micro is needed beyond that point.
9. When he pushed your natural, you were making infestors, but you engaged before they were out! Why?? ...You had the spine up to buy you time, you would have lost so much less if you engaged after those nice fungals you had.
10. Finally, when you did finally clean it up with the infestors and some spare lings, you let the infestors keep walking forward and lost all but 2. Just be careful about that... even pros do this sometimes, but if you can just click them back after they do their job, you can save a few and have some nice fungals around for later.
At this point, the game is basically over. Hope some of this helps - I know losing after being bunker rushed like that is extremely frustrating
|
I'm willing to help someone whenever possible, but the OP is just so bad.
|
any legitimate build can deflect builds that are ment to crush it with proper control, all i see if you whining more than anything.. if a bunker rush lasts 10 min, that has nothing to do with the terran, it has to do with how the zerg reacted initially, and how the zerg should react if the terran makes it a hard contain
|
SUCCESSFUL TROLL IS SUCCESSFUL!
Welcome to the internet, people. Rick Astley is right over there, memes can be found everywhere, and if it sounds totally fucking retarded, it's a troll.
I'm baffled that anyone responded to this thread, actually... let alone seriously.
|
On August 30 2011 09:22 DW-Unrec wrote:IdrA said you can defend a 6pool with a 14 pool. No, you can't. http://dl.dropbox.com/u/14613891/Cant defend.SC2ReplayBunker rushes cannot be defended when terran hides the second rax, makes tons of marines then pushes. Siege tanks kills all zerg units. Roaches, lings, banelings. Zerg cannot beat terran. http://dl.dropbox.com/u/14613891/noob.SC2ReplayI was trying to improve this week. I got cheesed 9 times today. 2 wins 11 losses on fucking diamond league. Im quitting this shitty race. Zerg cannot do timing pushes. Zerg does not have a proper cheese. Zergs gets raped by siege tanks. The Question itselfthe question is how the fuck terran made 80 siege tanks while cheeseing. Helping me does not help me. I just keep forgeting to scout, to make tech... The problem is time passes too quick in starcraft, I look at the clock it says 8:00 game minutes. I look again 10 seconds later it says 28 minutes and I'm still on 2 bases. Look at the ZvT replay, the bunker rush lasts 10 minutes. Wtf is that? and how do I fix it? Show nested quote +
Hi
This is a rage/help/question topic.
I'm plat. I know every fucking thing on this game. I know when I should drop gas depending on the strat on all 3 races. I know how many productions facilitys X bases can support. I know when to tech, I know why pro makes Y decision.
But i'm still on plat and still lose to fucking shitty players. I coached a 15 year old kid to play this game. He's on masters now.
I've been practicing 4 weeks non-stop. The kid stopped playing for 2 months. When he came back to this fucking game, he is still on masters and still fucking beat me.
That's it: I'm quitting zerg or I'm quitting starcraft.
Maybe I don't have talent. I was not supposed to be pro, maybe I'm supposed to be just a fun boy that watches streams.
Practice DOES NOT makes perfection. Talent does.
So...
-Quit SC
-Quit Zerg
-Quit QQing and go practice nah, i'm not improving. I wont practice if I dont see progress. I lose to a fucking 15 years old kid.
Which one?
So, do you need to watch my replays to see how bad I am? Nah, I'm not posting replays, I know every thing I'm supposed to do and still cant get it right on the game.
Show nested quote +
For me "play for fun" is getting into masters/GM, winning money from small cups
Sounds like you're a cocky ten year old child. You don't even want help, you said it yourself. What do you want from them then? They just want to help you. You only want to win. Come on man. Grow up. You want attention? You got it bro. Have fun basking in the sunlight. While you're basking you could be practicing and getting better. I don't understand you.
If you want help the Terran was a better player than you, macroed better, and made the tanks. That's the answer to your question.
HF
|
go T and do what the T do to you and see what the zergs that beat you do and copy them. i did this when my pvz was failing me and now pvz is my best matchup
|
Basically a repeat of his old post which was moved to blogs for obvious reasons... http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=259500
It's so obvious that it's mindset that's the #1 thing holding you back. I'm sure when you read this you'll be convinced that's not true but you're stuck in plat/diamond and talking about how it's impossible for you to win.
You'll convince yourself that you are actually being perfectly reasonable and open to suggestions on how to fix your play when you will just deny all help as impossible to do because in your mind you're playing a against an idiot(becaus they don't play zerg) who also is somehow as good as mvp( so is therefore unbeatable) with an OP race with cheeses that last forever and mules that gather 1000 minerals a second which leads them to 1aing to victory with a blindfold on.
Honestly at what point can we just call you a loony.
If he rerolls terran or protoss we'll see the same post a few weeks from now except the other way around.
|
Ares[Effort]
DEMACIA6550 Posts
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
