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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
On August 25 2011 17:38 arbitrageur wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 17:37 firehand101 wrote:On August 25 2011 17:28 decemberTV wrote:
So BF will be useless for worker harassment vZ and vP. This is kind of stupid since the main issue was vT ?
This made me lol so hard. useless....... i think it still takes the same amount of shots from a hellion to kill workers? His assertion was "So BF will be useless for worker harassment vZ and vP." which is completely wrong for ZvT at least because you can't just use lings to defend.
I never said that hellions are useless for worker harassment in TvZ. I just said that the blue-flame upgrade is. As after the nerf you'll need 3 hits with hellions to kill a drone, whether you have blue-flame or not. And zerglings are not gonna stop them, no matter if their flame is blue or red.
Sure, +1 vehicle weapons will make them 2-shot workers again, but you won't get that uprgade until way into the midgame. Do armor upgrades work for workers ?
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Guess I wait for HotS for mech to become really viable in TvP, this patch at least only makes it worse 
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On August 25 2011 17:55 ELA wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 17:37 firehand101 wrote:On August 25 2011 17:28 decemberTV wrote:
So BF will be useless for worker harassment vZ and vP. This is kind of stupid since the main issue was vT ?
This made me lol so hard. useless....... i think it still takes the same amount of shots from a hellion to kill workers? Drone: 40 HP Probe: 20 HP, 20 Shield SCV: 45 HP - Hellion out of the box: 8 damage (+6 vs. light): 14 damage to a workerline: 3 shots to kill worker (4 shots if SCV)
- Blueflame hellion upgrade: 8 damage (+16 vs. light): 24 damage to a workerline. 2 shots to kill worker (Regardless of race)
- Blueflame hellion after patch: 8 damage (+11 light): 19 damage to a workerline. 3 shots to kill worker. (Regardless of race).
- Hellion out of the box with +1 vehicle attack: 10 damage (+6 vs: light): 16 damage to a workerline: 3 shots to kill worker (Regardless of race)
+1 vehicle attack will be better all around for TvT - Makes alot of sense since it's alot of mech usually anyway.
lol nono you got me wrong; what amused me was the use of the word "useless" and hellions vs workers in the same sentence. :D
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About the 1/1/1 and the warp prism. I don't play protoss so i may say something stupid, but wouldn't it be possible to drop micro you're immortal, or just drop it in the tank lines now that the warp prism isn't paper and can take some marine shots? Again this may be stupid seeing you have to make an obs,an warp prism and like 2 imm from the robo.
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Blizzard keeps fixing terran leaving them less and less options early game. I wonder when they are gonna fix the real problem - late game.
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Focusing on the terrans HSM, it's now faster than vikings. I could see this possibly changing the late game terran air-vs-air battles, as people will favour more ravens for hsm over viking count (which in turn will make pdds more useful)
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On August 25 2011 18:00 Brainiac wrote:
Blizzard keeps fixing terran leaving them less and less options early game. I wonder when they are gonna fix the real problem - late game.
Indeed. Terran lategame is HORRIBLE, yet there are 0 fixes.
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I like most of the changes, excepting that fungal will no longer oneshot banelings, that can mess up ZvZ alot, but hard to tell yet.
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When this patch comes out Terrans will be forced to vote down xelnaga caverns. Protoss can just 1 gate proxy you in your face, and you will always come out behind, no matter how well you defend.
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On August 25 2011 18:00 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 18:00 Brainiac wrote:
Blizzard keeps fixing terran leaving them less and less options early game. I wonder when they are gonna fix the real problem - late game. Indeed. Terran lategame is HORRIBLE, yet there are 0 fixes.
Once the terran-numbers in GSL drop below 50-60% we can talk about it.
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On August 25 2011 18:00 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 18:00 Brainiac wrote:
Blizzard keeps fixing terran leaving them less and less options early game. I wonder when they are gonna fix the real problem - late game. Indeed. Terran lategame is HORRIBLE, yet there are 0 fixes.
So I take it you ignored the HUUGE HSM buff then? that will be amazing for lategame.
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On August 25 2011 17:50 Timestreamer wrote:
Does the FG nerf makes it so that now marines with medivacs don't die to 2 FG?
Marines never die to FG if they have enough medivacs to heal them right up.
Repeated control group and selection commands will no longer count as unique actions for APM calculation purposes.
Awesome! Less spam APM.
All in all the changes are very very radical though, I doubt you can derive much from the data this will produce.
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On August 25 2011 17:57 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 17:56 RaNdOmOwNaGe wrote:
Blink play in PvP seems... almost impossible now. Not really - it just means robo into TC is a must, since straight blink won't break a robo opening anymore. Nevertheless later on blink is still awsome.
The only other option would be phoenix, which is somewhat coinflippy. Although now that I think of it, with these changes, you could actually go pretty much any tech build you wanted if you built a single sentry, and kept building sentries as needed.
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I guess i'm ok with these changes.. wonder what the idea behind the 5sec delay in baracks is... almost a free 6pool win on small maps? :-)) We'll see how it turns out
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"Fixed an issue where Drone attacks could be more easily dodged than SCV or Probes." Finally
I dont like the pace at wich Blizzard makes patches though, I think they should wait a little more to see how players can cope with the strategies that are considered imba.
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Ah mah gah this is like the best patch change  Finally BFH nerfed, I was tired of Terrans marching 50 of them into my base and killing all my probes, and then they still have a giant army left.
Not sure about the blinker stalker timing but I guess they have their reasons
Wouldn't the fungal growth change have not much effect on ZvP because it's 40% armoured and like the whole of the Protoss army is amoured?
Immortal is a good change, may make a very slight change to deal with the 1/1/1 (though probably not a noticable difference) and in PvP they'll probably be more viable even after collo tech.
Is the unit vision just up ramps or for high ground aswell? But I like it none the less for PvP.
Warp prism finally!! I don't know how much of a difference it will have because it will only take 1-2 more marine bursts to kill it  I've been using warp prisms a lot anyway and at least we will see more of it now.
And oh 5 second increase for barracks! The 1/1/1 will be delay by 5 seconds yay
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+ Show Spoiler +On August 25 2011 17:13 Fiel wrote:
Here's how the fungal change affects units:
PROTOSS:
Probe: No change
Zealot: No change
Stalker: No change
Sentry: No change
HT: No change
DT: No change
Immortal: 7 --> 8
Colossus: 8 --> 9
Archon: 10 --> 12
Obs: No change
Warp Prism: 3 (at 140 total HP) --> 5 (at 200 total HP)
Phoenix: 5 --> 6
Void Ray: 6 --> 7
Carrier: 10 --> 12
Mothership: 15 --> 18
ZERG:
Drone: No change
Zergling: No change
Baneling: 1 --> 2 (due to regen)
Roach: No change
Hydra: No change
Infestor: No change (due to regen)
Ultra: 11 --> 13
Overlord: 5 --> 6 (due to regen)
Overseer: 5 --> 6 (due to regen)
Mutalisk: 4 --> 5 (due to regen)
Corruptor: 5 --> 6 (due to regen)
Brood Lord: 5 --> 6
TERRAN:
Marine: No change
Marauder: 3 --> 4
Reaper: No change
Ghost: 3 --> 4
Hellion: No change
Siege Tank: No change
Thor: 9 --> 10
Viking: 3 --> 4
Medivac: No change
Raven: 3 --> 4
Banshee: 4 --> 5
Battlecruiser: 12 --> 14
THEREFORE:
The Fungal nerf will have little change in ZvP. Making phoenix clouds take more fungals won't affect too much. Protoss can get Phoenixes out faster than Zerg can get out infestors anyway. Making void rays require 7 fungals doesn't change much either as VRs tend to clump. Also, FFE into Stargate (MC build) will have Stargate units hitting before Infestors as well. The biggest change I foresee is the greater viability of drops in PvZ because it takes more damage to kill the Warp Prism.
In ZvT there will be a big impact. Making Banshees now require 5 fungals means Zergs will have to get spore crawlers to fight against banshees and not rely on chain fungals to deal with air. Actually, now that all air units require more fungals to kill, that means fewer fungals to deal with MMM. Making HSM have faster speed also means that clumps of infestors will be wiped out as they can't run away with their slow speed. Infestors are far less viable in ZvT simply because of this nerf to Fungal.
I don't foresee much issue with the larger units like Battlecruisers, Archons, or Colossus taking more fungals since Zergs prefer to NP these anyway.
Dont forget that since MMM involves healing infantry, the change could have even more of an impact there
Edit: Im liking this patch. Immortals can do their job better now, warp prisms dont die in half a second, maybe the mothership wont be as bad but i dont know how much of an impact thatll be. Fungal nerf seems fine to me, but dunno if thats enough to silence the whiners.
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On August 25 2011 18:01 Tristy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 18:00 Snowbear wrote:On August 25 2011 18:00 Brainiac wrote:
Blizzard keeps fixing terran leaving them less and less options early game. I wonder when they are gonna fix the real problem - late game. Indeed. Terran lategame is HORRIBLE, yet there are 0 fixes. So I take it you ignored the HUUGE HSM buff then? that will be amazing for lategame.
Yeah this will kill so many ultralisks! Or even better, it will kill the archon HT collossus combo! HT feedback will still own ravens and lategame TvZ won't change at all. The problem with the raven is the castingrange imo.
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Wow, finally a step in the right direction
i think the contaminate change is so people can't spam contaminate /overseers
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On August 25 2011 17:59 decemberTV wrote:
lol nono you got me wrong; what amused me was the use of the word "useless" and hellions vs workers in the same sentence. :D
Then maybe next time you should read more carefully, as i never said hellions are useless, just that the pre-igniter upgrade is.
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EPT
