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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
On September 09 2011 17:43 kickinhead wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 17:21 Sated wrote:
For instance, Protoss can't micro to attack the Infestors that are using Neural Parasite because everything is Fungal'd in place, nor can they move their units away from the units that are being Neural'd to avoid losing their whole army to their own Colossus/Archon. Simultaneously removing all micro and allowing the most powerful AOE units to be mind-controlled is a totally imbalanced mechanic as it prevents the Zerg's Protoss opponent from being able to do anything without perfect - and I mean perfect - feedbacks. From a PvZ standpoint, either Neural needs this change or Fungal needs to be changed so that it doesn't prevent micro completely (for instance, it still allows blink to be used or something like that). That's completely ridiculous: 1) Collossi outrange NP, so your collossi would have to be in a completely stupid position to make it possible for the zerg to fungal your whole army AND NP the collossi with the Infestor channeling NP being out of range of anything that can kill it. 2) If you don't ball your army as hard, it would take a ridiculous amount of Energy to Fungal everything and cast NP on the collossi. 3) With the Prism-Buff, HT's in Prisms will be much stronger against zerg, so feedbacking, which is already a good way to deal with infestors, will become even better. 4) You can use Blinkstalkers to blink onto the Infestors and snipe them before they are able to cast all those spells. 5) Collossi-Deathballs aren't the only way to play ZvP, I'd even say, that there are much better compositions, especially with the upcoming Immo-Buff, Blinkstalkers+Immos+Ht's+Archons will be much better in the current metagame against Zerg. 6) We still see almost no Phoenix used to snipe infestors, although Zerg uses almost no Anti-Air against Protoss and if you fly in with like 3-4 phoenix and the zerg has to throw down 2+ fungals and some infested Terrans, they will have done a decent job as well. 7) With the Upcoming Fungal-Nerf, Protoss Deathball will be stronger anyways (DMG on Stalkers, Immos, Collos etc. will be down to 40 from 48, which is IMHO pretty big in ZvP, with the infestor being the cornerstone of ZvP in the current Metagame), if you'd also take away NP on Collos, it would be a huge nerf to the infestor that is just unjustified, cuz it really is the most important Unit for Zerg against Toss atm. Remember ZvP a few months ago before the Fungal-Buff and how everyone said ZvP Lategame cannot be won by zerg - yeah, that's how it's gonna be like again if all the current patchnotes get trough. Also, Phoenix, Prism, Carriers, Mothership etc. are still underused in ZvP AND some of them will even get buffs! Additionally, Protoss had to adjust to some changes and new splaystyles lately and are still figuring the new ZvP out - Such crucial nerfs would be unwarranted and too soon. *Edit: Being able to Blink while Fungaled would bake Mass-Blinkstalkers with heavy Upgrades almost unbeatable in ZvP. Suggesting that change is ridiculous. They'd have to easily double the recast-time for Blink for that change to be even slightly balanced in ZvP.
Damage nerf on infestors don't affect protoss units. It still take the same number of fungals to kill the same units as before. The damage nerf was mainly for terran. NP imo is extremely strong against colossus based army. Your listed solution often do not work out.
First: number of infestors vs number of colossus is very important. As colossus count get higher ie 8-9, then NP gets a lot weaker. However, when the colossus count is 3-4 it is often very easy to NP all colossus and wreck the toss. The reason is when toss has 3-4 colossus zergs will often have way more than 3-4 infestors since zerg have much more resource and economy.
Second: It is very hard to snipe infestors with colossus. Try it yourself.
Third: blinking stalker away for infestor snipe have high risks. Think about it. The point of the protoss army is to stick together to form a ball. It uses more supply efficient yet cost inefficient units to protect its very few cost efficient units. If you blink some stalkers straight into the zerg army. 1. How many infestors do you need to snipe? How many blink stalkers are you planning on sacrifice(they just used blink and are in middle of zerg army.) Because sacrificing 20% of a protoss army doesnt make the toss army 20% weaker but much higher.
Fourth: Carriers have been experimented. They are very slow to build and very slow. They are really bad versus corruptors(since they have a low damage double shot attack type which means have 2 base army hits it hard, also corruptors do extra damage). Pheonix based play have been used for a long time. FE into stargate is like the most common build these days. Mass pheonix were also seen versus zergs. However, there are timing where you can hit to devastate it(July versus Anypro). Also has Incontrol have said on SOTG. Pheonix versus infestors is not something you want to gamble. All it takes is one fungal and all your pheonix dies(chain fungal). Its like trying to do the double immortal prism drop versus terran. Risk is high reward is not enough.
Fifth: Im not sure where you get your builds. Yes immortal/stalker/archon/temp can work. But you have to realize to get that economy toss needs to secure a 3rd. These days if you attempt to secure a fast 3rd, you pretty much auto lose to mass infestors+lings.
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On September 09 2011 18:06 Ganseng wrote:
i think NP not working on massive is wrong. it's supposed to counter thors and colossi.
what i'd like to see, is that NP doesn't work on air units, so that we see some carriers and eventually battlecruisers in action.
i'd probably also like to see it not affecting archons - just to emphasize the supernatural type of this entity.
I'm sure this has been mentioned before, but a big issue in general, not just balance-wise, is that especially vs terran the answer to every composition is the infestor.
They go bio- get infestors and fungal growth. They go mech- get infestors and NP.
It wasn't quite the same with Protoss, but, in response to a few of the above posters, did you ever see a Protoss convince a zerg that infestors weren't a good idea? If HTs are such a powerful counter, why do we see infestors being made in the face of HTs?
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As a high-master random player I support the NP change. It is too strong at the moment to be honest when you can just control those units which deliver AoE damage (which is needed vs Zerg). Without AoE damage Zerg will always overrun P and T with mass roaches and support units. Zerg has to build either Corrupters or change their playstyles a bit (more Carpet bombing Banes and mixing in some Ultras).
I think it's a good decision since it forces Zerg to produce more than 2 units (e.g. Roach + Infestor as it is at the moment). Still viable are Fungal + Carpet Bombing (extremely efficient). Ultras with reduced build times will have a huge impact.
I dislike the build 20 infestors and fungal + control everything games which are happening at my level. With the NP change they could revert the Ultra - special buff again (Frenzy) which made it immune vs NP.
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It would be just utterly hilarious if they nerf the infestor and leave the ghost as it is. Such a stupid change.
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On September 09 2011 18:12 Jerubaal wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 18:06 Ganseng wrote:
i think NP not working on massive is wrong. it's supposed to counter thors and colossi.
what i'd like to see, is that NP doesn't work on air units, so that we see some carriers and eventually battlecruisers in action.
i'd probably also like to see it not affecting archons - just to emphasize the supernatural type of this entity.
I'm sure this has been mentioned before, but a big issue in general, not just balance-wise, is that especially vs terran the answer to every composition is the infestor. They go bio- get infestors and fungal growth. They go mech- get infestors and NP. It wasn't quite the same with Protoss, but, in response to a few of the above posters, did you ever see a Protoss convince a zerg that infestors weren't a good idea? If HTs are such a powerful counter, why do we see infestors being made in the face of HTs?
yup infestors were the counter to everything now zergs will have to do a different unit composition to deal with mech
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On September 09 2011 16:51 emart wrote:
LAWL time to mass Thors in TvZ
Roaches still counter mech...
Well let me clarify. Roaches counter early mech and if played correctly (read not suiciding = in head on attacks) can maintain a certain measure of control in the game. Ultras are pretty good as are broodlords. Actually magic boxed mutas in certain cases also troll mech.
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On September 09 2011 18:16 wolfe wrote:Roaches still counter mech...
They do decently, wouldn't call it a counter.
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On September 09 2011 18:12 Jerubaal wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 18:06 Ganseng wrote:
i think NP not working on massive is wrong. it's supposed to counter thors and colossi.
what i'd like to see, is that NP doesn't work on air units, so that we see some carriers and eventually battlecruisers in action.
i'd probably also like to see it not affecting archons - just to emphasize the supernatural type of this entity.
I'm sure this has been mentioned before, but a big issue in general, not just balance-wise, is that especially vs terran the answer to every composition is the infestor. They go bio- get infestors and fungal growth. They go mech- get infestors and NP. It wasn't quite the same with Protoss, but, in response to a few of the above posters, did you ever see a Protoss convince a zerg that infestors weren't a good idea? If HTs are such a powerful counter, why do we see infestors being made in the face of HTs?
Well, the reason Zergs make Infestors to everything, especially against Terran is because it gives the Zerg player much much more control over the engagement.
Think about it. Terran is going Marine tank, either you make tons and tons of ling/bling or infestors. With ling bling, you surround with lings and chase marines with banes; whether Zerg overwhelmingly wins/loses the battle is based on the Terrans marine splitting and siege tank focus fire. With infestors, the engagement is on you... if you get a good fungal it isn't because Terran has bad marine splitting, it is because I was faster than Terran.
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On September 09 2011 18:08 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 17:43 kickinhead wrote:On September 09 2011 17:21 Sated wrote:
For instance, Protoss can't micro to attack the Infestors that are using Neural Parasite because everything is Fungal'd in place, nor can they move their units away from the units that are being Neural'd to avoid losing their whole army to their own Colossus/Archon. Simultaneously removing all micro and allowing the most powerful AOE units to be mind-controlled is a totally imbalanced mechanic as it prevents the Zerg's Protoss opponent from being able to do anything without perfect - and I mean perfect - feedbacks. From a PvZ standpoint, either Neural needs this change or Fungal needs to be changed so that it doesn't prevent micro completely (for instance, it still allows blink to be used or something like that). That's completely ridiculous: 1) Collossi outrange NP, so your collossi would have to be in a completely stupid position to make it possible for the zerg to fungal your whole army AND NP the collossi with the Infestor channeling NP being out of range of anything that can kill it. That really depends how many Infestors you have. With the style some people play cf. Destiny, it's not unreasonable to assume that there will be more Infestors than Colossi... especially since Infestors can come out 4 at a time and Colossi can't. Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 17:43 kickinhead wrote:2) If you don't ball your army as hard, it would take a ridiculous amount of Energy to Fungal everything and cast NP on the collossi. The whole point of balling an army up against Zerg is to reduce the surface area available for attack when facing down Zerglings so it makes for an interesting synergy. Also, like I just said, Infestors are often used in massive numbers so... lots of Fungals are available. Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 17:43 kickinhead wrote:3) With the Prism-Buff, HT's in Prisms will be much stronger against zerg, so feedbacking, which is already a good way to deal with infestors, will become even better. Feedback is a horrible way to deal with anything. It's better against Infestors than against Ghosts, though, and I do like the Warp-Prism mechanic you suggest after seeing White-Ra do it so often. However, this is irrelevant until the late game, since teching to both High-Templar and Colossus early on isn't really a possibility. Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 17:43 kickinhead wrote:4) You can use Blinkstalkers to blink onto the Infestors and snipe them before they are able to cast all those spells. Requires being far better than the Zerg you're up against and results in losing all your Stalkers if even a couple of Fungals go off. Not viable at all. Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 17:43 kickinhead wrote:5) Collossi-Deathballs aren't the only way to play ZvP, I'd even say, that there are much better compositions, especially with the upcoming Immo-Buff, Blinkstalkers+Immos+Ht's+Archons will be much better in the current metagame against Zerg. This affects Archons, too. Being Fungal'd and Neural'd in place when using Archons was even worse since Archons often-times don't outrange Neural Parasite. Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 17:43 kickinhead wrote:6) We still see almost no Phoenix used to snipe infestors, although Zerg uses almost no Anti-Air against Protoss and if you fly in with like 3-4 phoenix and the zerg has to throw down 2+ fungals and some infested Terrans, they will have done a decent job as well. Yeah, I've never actually tried this. Could be viable. Going Phoenix/Colossus is pretty gas-heavy, though, compared to Ling/Infestor. Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 17:43 kickinhead wrote:7) With the Upcoming Fungal-Nerf, Protoss Deathball will be stronger anyways (DMG on Stalkers, Immos, Collos etc. will be down to 40 from 48, which is IMHO pretty big in ZvP, with the infestor being the cornerstone of ZvP in the current Metagame), if you'd also take away NP on Collos, it would be a huge nerf to the infestor that is just unjustified, cuz it really is the most important Unit for Zerg against Toss atm. Fungal still holds units in place. The damage is irrelevant, it's the micro-cancelling that is the problem... especially since it only takes one click to remove the micro of >1 unit unlike Graviton Beam. Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 17:43 kickinhead wrote:Remember ZvP a few months ago before the Fungal-Buff and how everyone said ZvP Lategame cannot be won by zerg - yeah, that's how it's gonna be like again if all the current patchnotes get trough. What Zerg lacks is a good AoE unit. But stealing all the opponent's AoE and leaving them with few ways to deal with it due to Fungal Growth isn't the way to go about giving it to them. Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 17:43 kickinhead wrote:Also, Phoenix, Prism, Carriers, Mothership etc. are still underused in ZvP AND some of them will even get buffs! Additionally, Protoss had to adjust to some changes and new splaystyles lately and are still figuring the new ZvP out - Such crucial nerfs would be unwarranted and too soon. When the best Protoss in the world can't figure it out fast enough, there's a problem. Look at the PvZ winrate in GSL recently (and PvT for that matter T_T). Carriers and Motherships aren't used because they're useless outside of gimmicky rushes. Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 17:43 kickinhead wrote:*Edit: Being able to Blink while Fungaled would bake Mass-Blinkstalkers with heavy Upgrades almost unbeatable in ZvP. Suggesting that change is ridiculous. They'd have to easily double the recast-time for Blink for that change to be even slightly balanced in ZvP. I know it was a ridiculous change. But it would take something that ridiculous to make the Fungal/Neural combination viable. That's why it is broken and that's why either Fungal needs not to stop units moving or Neural needs this change. 
The Lack of success of Toss in GSL isn't only because Zerg now can actually win games against them, it's also because of Terrans figuring out that you acutally cannot have enough ghosts and the fact that there are just less Protoss in Korea than Terrans and Zergs, it was like that in BW as well - No Toss really won sth. major in quite a while, yet no1 questions the balance of the game.
No Protoss can figure out new ways to play ZvP nowadays? Then what's up with for example Kiwi and MC using mass-Phoenix to great success, JYP using Prism and HT's and totally rip apart Zerg and White_Ra has been using Warp-Prisms and even Carriers quite a bit in ZvP. Those are all viable strats almost no Protoss really experiments with, or at least I don't see it in Tournaments. Also, Prism+Immo-Buff will open up new doors as well and even the best Protoss can't figure out new builds/timings without them being implemented in the game and no really good player bothers with going on the PTR to test out changes that might not even be implemented in the game.
Oh and - balling up an army might have some advantages against Speedlings, but that may get outweighed by Fungal, don't you think? besides, with recent Archon-Buffs, really strong AoE of Protoss and Zealots totally ripping apart Speedlings, those little bugs should be the least of your worries in ZvP, at least in the lategame and in straight-up fights.
On September 09 2011 18:16 wolfe wrote:Roaches still counter mech...
200 Supply worth of roaches is maybe worth 100 supply of thors.... They are completely useless against a maxed Mech-Army without Neural-Support.
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On September 09 2011 17:56 stratman wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 17:45 Umpteen wrote:
Patch 1.5 changes just announced:
* All Protoss and Terran units are now Massive.
* Icon for Neural Parasite research replaced with a .gif of Raynor and Tassadar high-fiving.
* Infestors explode doing friendly splash damage after casting Fungal Growth.
* Infested Terrans now carry lighters instead of guns and sing a rousing chorus of "Give peace a chance".
Non-balance changes:
* Selecting 'Zerg' from the multiplayer screen now brings up a confirmation box.
On a more positive note, I'm about three leagues off sparing the APM to neural parasite anything anyway, so it's nice to be able to cross it off my to-do list early.
The zerg qq in this thread is a complete overreaction to a change to the test server but this was a pretty funny post. IMO there's no way blizzard will go through with the nerf to NP. Don't worry zergies, this is just for the PTR. They're testing it out to see how it looks. It's a dumb move, so it will look bad, so they won't keep the nerf.
I thought it was sufficiently tongue-in-cheek not to be taken seriously
Honestly, I think 'balance' is only partly responsible for Zerg outrage here. It's more the removal of a toy when we have so few in the box to begin with. It's the removal of one of our very few long-range abilities. It's the neutering of Zerg's only 'forcing' unit in ZvP. I hope it doesn't go through, not because it'll make any difference to me right now, but because it means I have less to look forward to.
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On September 09 2011 18:06 branflakes14 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 18:02 Mojar wrote:
Here is the reason the NP change can not and will not go through. Without NP there is no unit composition that a zerg can build at ALL that can beat a terran who goes mass Thor. No thats not my opinion its a fact. Infestor/Ling? Thors don't do great against Zerglings and Fungal Growth still does pretty nasty damage to Thors, not to mention clears out repairing SCVs like a charm. And Thors do pretty poorly against Brood Lords. Funnily enough I've never seen a Terran go for mass Thor in TvZ, and I don't doubt that there's a very good reason for that.
Fungal growth does terrible damage to Thors.
Mass ling is good against small thor numbers when they are unsupported but as the numbers grow and any support is provided, lings effectiveness declines exponentially.
Broodlords effectiveness against Thors is overstated in my experience. Broodlords clump so they can still receive damage from splash. Again this is without even assuming that the Thors are supported by vikings or ghosts which changes the field dramatically.
Select went for mass thor vs Idra at one of the MLGs...as far as i remember he was crushed by infestor use.
I think the last game of MVP vs July also had MVP transitioning from BF hellions into Thor play but I may be wrong there.
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On September 09 2011 18:18 OnlineHero wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 18:16 wolfe wrote:On September 09 2011 16:51 emart wrote:
LAWL time to mass Thors in TvZ Roaches still counter mech... They do decently, wouldn't call it a counter.
Yeah sorry, edited my post a bit too late. In short with lings, roaches, mutas, ultras, and broodlords Zerg still has options against terran mech with in my opinion is still far inferior to well played marine medic tank.
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On September 09 2011 18:06 branflakes14 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 18:02 Mojar wrote:
Here is the reason the NP change can not and will not go through. Without NP there is no unit composition that a zerg can build at ALL that can beat a terran who goes mass Thor. No thats not my opinion its a fact. Infestor/Ling? Thors don't do great against Zerglings and Fungal Growth still does pretty nasty damage to Thors, not to mention clears out repairing SCVs like a charm. And Thors do pretty poorly against Brood Lords. Funnily enough I've never seen a Terran go for mass Thor in TvZ, and I don't doubt that there's a very good reason for that.
The reason terran's don't go pure thor is because of Infestor NP lings do nothing to a lot of Thors especially when backed by some hellions. Broodlords are useless as you cant get them in time (while staying alive) vs a big mech timing. Also Thors still do pretty decent damage against them anyway. Also no FG does not do nasty damage vs Thors it does jack shit and don't forget fungal is being nerfed also.
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On September 09 2011 17:55 lim1017 wrote:
Instead of making NP not work on all massive units, i think it would be better if certain units were just immune to NP
i believe the Ultralisk is already immune so add the
Arcon and Mothership
kinda makes sense lore wise as well,
Arcon is the ultimate psionic warrior or w/e, should probably be able to resist mind control
Mothership is well the mothership
Lore wise it would make more sense for a Colossus to resist mind control than a Mothership. They're nothing but fully automated robots while Motherships are piloted by living Protoss captains.
Lore isn't the reason they make balance changes though that's for sure.
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Russian Federation473 Posts
On September 09 2011 18:11 Bocian wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 18:08 kickinhead wrote:On September 09 2011 18:06 Ganseng wrote:
i think NP not working on massive is wrong. it's supposed to counter thors and colossi.
what i'd like to see, is that NP doesn't work on air units, so that we see some carriers and eventually battlecruisers in action.
i'd probably also like to see it not affecting archons - just to emphasize the supernatural type of this entity.
I could totally get behind those changes and it would give Protoss a possibility in the lategame for a carrier-switch, to punish zerg for not using any anti-air besides the Infestors abilities in ZvP. because zerg doesn't have any good AA units. Corruptors are quite good but then u switch again to ground army and zerg (whose units are not that cost effective) has some useless supply in the air. When zerg go hydras then all Protosses smile and switch to colossus.
i can't agree on that, corruptors are excellent anti-air, especially against massive units. sure they lose to void rays in equal supply numbers, but they basically kill everything else in the air supply- and resource-wise (and infestors' support makes them much more potent). queens are also pretty good.
as for mass voidrays, you always have to remember that these things build 60 seconds (40 if you chronoboost them constantly), and each stargate costs 150/150... so it's not easy to keep up in numbers with corruptors.
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I'm so glad that there's a community like Team Liquid where people can come and and cleanse their brains of some of the idiocy if the internet. I just spent over 3 hours on the Starcraft 2 forums. I dont think I need to go into how bad that makes me feel.
Anyway, onto the patch. I think the newest change to NP is way overboard and likely wont go through. I really wish Blizzard would give the metagame time to shift, I'm really only just now seeing some variation from protoss to deal with infestors.
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I don't really like NP as it is.
They should return it to lasting forever and allow the infestor to follow the unit it's controlling. Then you could steal a ghost/templar and keep them with your army.
That's a lot more skillful/tactical than just clicking the biggest unit.
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On September 09 2011 18:19 Absentia wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 18:06 branflakes14 wrote:On September 09 2011 18:02 Mojar wrote:
Here is the reason the NP change can not and will not go through. Without NP there is no unit composition that a zerg can build at ALL that can beat a terran who goes mass Thor. No thats not my opinion its a fact. Infestor/Ling? Thors don't do great against Zerglings and Fungal Growth still does pretty nasty damage to Thors, not to mention clears out repairing SCVs like a charm. And Thors do pretty poorly against Brood Lords. Funnily enough I've never seen a Terran go for mass Thor in TvZ, and I don't doubt that there's a very good reason for that. Fungal growth does terrible damage to Thors. Mass ling is good against small thor numbers when they are unsupported but as the numbers grow and any support is provided, lings effectiveness declines exponentially. Broodlords effectiveness against Thors is overstated in my experience. Broodlords clump so they can still receive damage from splash. Again this is without even assuming that the Thors are supported by vikings or ghosts which changes the field dramatically. Select went for mass thor vs Idra at one of the MLGs...as far as i remember he was crushed by infestor use. I think the last game of MVP vs July also had MVP transitioning from BF hellions into Thor play but I may be wrong there.
Against Mass-Thors, going for lings is pretty much GG, cuz they will always be supported by BF-Hellions, roaches is the only way, but with them, you can maybe hold off some timing-attacks, but against a maxed Mech-Army, they are useless without support.
Thors are IMHO not only not bad against BL's, they are IMHO very good against them! They outrange BL's, give great support to your vikings if the Zerg coes for corruptors and Fungal doesn't bother them at all, compared to how useful fungal is against Marines+Vikings.
Besides the Ghost, which is clearly the best option to deal with Broodlords and infestors and basically any lategame-composition the Zerg uses, Thors actually do the best against BL+Infestors, even with NP being able to target them!
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On September 09 2011 18:16 wolfe wrote:Roaches still counter mech... Well let me clarify. Roaches counter early mech and if played correctly (read not suiciding = in head on attacks) can maintain a certain measure of control in the game. Ultras are pretty good as are broodlords. Actually magic boxed mutas in certain cases also troll mech.
ultras are bad against thors...
Muta magic box doesn't work when there are that number of thors.
Thors with scvs repairing is a different story too
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EPT
