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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
On August 26 2011 12:34 windsupernova wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 12:18 momonami5 wrote:
Why do ppl think the blue flame nerf gonna change anything lol if hellions get in your mineral line and your workers line up they gonna still die even after the patch. Because people see a nerf and think that means the thing in question will be useless. Things TL experts have told had become useless: -Zealots -4 gate -High Templars -Tanks -Thors -Void Rays -Bunker Rushes and now BFH will join the ranks of those useless units. The only unti I have seen become useless through a nerf is the reaper and that is debatable.
Most of those are Protoss units...other 3 are terran but anyone with a brain sees they were just crying. Notice 0 zerg units. Zerg never cry.
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I dont see what this patch changes pvt (1-1-1) wise :[
it seems like blizzard isnt even considering dealing with the issue
Mothership speed and warp prism shield buffs needed to be there since the start of the game....
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On August 26 2011 12:37 Trealador wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 12:34 windsupernova wrote:On August 26 2011 12:18 momonami5 wrote:
Why do ppl think the blue flame nerf gonna change anything lol if hellions get in your mineral line and your workers line up they gonna still die even after the patch. Because people see a nerf and think that means the thing in question will be useless. Things TL experts have told had become useless: -Zealots -4 gate -High Templars -Tanks -Thors -Void Rays -Bunker Rushes and now BFH will join the ranks of those useless units. The only unti I have seen become useless through a nerf is the reaper and that is debatable. Most of those are Protoss units...other 3 are terran but anyone with a brain sees they were just crying. Notice 0 zerg units. Zerg never cry.
Zerg think all their units suck. They have thought this since the beta when roaches were insanely powerful. They cry more than anyone - it just doesn't stand out as much because it's the norm.
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On August 26 2011 12:39 Loodah wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 12:37 Trealador wrote:On August 26 2011 12:34 windsupernova wrote:On August 26 2011 12:18 momonami5 wrote:
Why do ppl think the blue flame nerf gonna change anything lol if hellions get in your mineral line and your workers line up they gonna still die even after the patch. Because people see a nerf and think that means the thing in question will be useless. Things TL experts have told had become useless: -Zealots -4 gate -High Templars -Tanks -Thors -Void Rays -Bunker Rushes and now BFH will join the ranks of those useless units. The only unti I have seen become useless through a nerf is the reaper and that is debatable. Most of those are Protoss units...other 3 are terran but anyone with a brain sees they were just crying. Notice 0 zerg units. Zerg never cry. Zerg think all their units suck. They have thought this since the beta when roaches were insanely powerful. They cry more than anyone - it just doesn't stand out as much because it's the norm.
Obvious sarcasm was obvious. And its because they never nerf zerg, until now. Zerg did suck.
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On August 26 2011 12:37 Trealador wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 12:34 windsupernova wrote:On August 26 2011 12:18 momonami5 wrote:
Why do ppl think the blue flame nerf gonna change anything lol if hellions get in your mineral line and your workers line up they gonna still die even after the patch. Because people see a nerf and think that means the thing in question will be useless. Things TL experts have told had become useless: -Zealots -4 gate -High Templars -Tanks -Thors -Void Rays -Bunker Rushes and now BFH will join the ranks of those useless units. The only unti I have seen become useless through a nerf is the reaper and that is debatable. Most of those are Protoss units...other 3 are terran but anyone with a brain sees they were just crying. Notice 0 zerg units. Zerg never cry.
Except when they do. I just threw down the first ones that came to my mind. But Zergs have done their fair share of crying
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On August 26 2011 12:36 windsupernova wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 12:31 iChaos wrote:On August 25 2011 10:14 awu25 wrote:
Hellion
Infernal Pre-Igniter damage upgrade decreased from 10 to 5.
The hellion is mainly a haras unit, so making them three shot workers w/o the upgrade and also making it three shots w/. Isn't this just making the upgrade redundant ? No, because the upgrade still lets the Hellion do better against Marines and Zerglings.(Dunno about Zealots)
You know, upgrades from the Armory can do that too, right?
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I kinda feel like the barracks nerf is gonna weird things up. I IMAGINE it's to make marine scv allin easier to hold, because TvZ early game doesn't seem that affected by the barracks (except maybe faster factory? I dunno). Still, it fucks so many early game timings and doesn't seem worth it for what would be a 5 sec later marine scv allin?
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On August 26 2011 12:37 Trealador wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 12:34 windsupernova wrote:On August 26 2011 12:18 momonami5 wrote:
Why do ppl think the blue flame nerf gonna change anything lol if hellions get in your mineral line and your workers line up they gonna still die even after the patch. Because people see a nerf and think that means the thing in question will be useless. Things TL experts have told had become useless: -Zealots -4 gate -High Templars -Tanks -Thors -Void Rays -Bunker Rushes and now BFH will join the ranks of those useless units. The only unti I have seen become useless through a nerf is the reaper and that is debatable. Most of those are Protoss units...other 3 are terran but anyone with a brain sees they were just crying. Notice 0 zerg units. Zerg never cry.
i didnt read ur post closely enough hah.
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I love the UI changes on PTR.
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On August 26 2011 12:39 ChEDo wrote:
I dont see what this patch changes pvt (1-1-1) wise :[
it seems like blizzard isnt even considering dealing with the issue
Mothership speed and warp prism shield buffs needed to be there since the start of the game....
I don't think there is a change in PvT as regards 1/1/1 because it's not an issue yet. If we patch out every build that people have trouble with for a few weeks/months without letting the metagame try and work it out, we'd all be doing defensive boring builds.
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On August 26 2011 12:42 windsupernova wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 12:37 Trealador wrote:On August 26 2011 12:34 windsupernova wrote:On August 26 2011 12:18 momonami5 wrote:
Why do ppl think the blue flame nerf gonna change anything lol if hellions get in your mineral line and your workers line up they gonna still die even after the patch. Because people see a nerf and think that means the thing in question will be useless. Things TL experts have told had become useless: -Zealots -4 gate -High Templars -Tanks -Thors -Void Rays -Bunker Rushes and now BFH will join the ranks of those useless units. The only unti I have seen become useless through a nerf is the reaper and that is debatable. Most of those are Protoss units...other 3 are terran but anyone with a brain sees they were just crying. Notice 0 zerg units. Zerg never cry. Except when they do. I just threw down the first ones that came to my mind. But Zergs have done their fair share of crying
These kind of comments always make me laugh is all. If they nerf a unit and it actually does suck like everyone says it would, people literally forget they are there. 4 gate really should be more of an all in though 
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On August 26 2011 12:36 windsupernova wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 12:31 iChaos wrote:On August 25 2011 10:14 awu25 wrote:
Hellion
Infernal Pre-Igniter damage upgrade decreased from 10 to 5.
The hellion is mainly a haras unit, so making them three shot workers w/o the upgrade and also making it three shots w/. Isn't this just making the upgrade redundant ? No, because the upgrade still lets the Hellion do better against Marines and Zerglings.(Dunno about Zealots)
Yes but as i see it it is mostly used as a haras unit.
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On August 26 2011 12:42 Jomer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 12:36 windsupernova wrote:On August 26 2011 12:31 iChaos wrote:On August 25 2011 10:14 awu25 wrote:
Hellion
Infernal Pre-Igniter damage upgrade decreased from 10 to 5.
The hellion is mainly a haras unit, so making them three shot workers w/o the upgrade and also making it three shots w/. Isn't this just making the upgrade redundant ? No, because the upgrade still lets the Hellion do better against Marines and Zerglings.(Dunno about Zealots) You know, upgrades from the Armory can do that too, right?
Only until plus 2 IIRC and it comes waaay later than BFH.And BFH and plus mech attacks are sexier 
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The best change is the drone balance fix. Drones can now attack like SCVs and Probes! Finally!!!!!!!
quoted for truth. I imagine this, along with the barracks nerf, will make defending 2 rax much more possible for zergs with the micro to do so.
Hellions will still 2 shot lings and with a plus one attack will 2 shot probes and drones. Blink needed that change but not game breaking imo.
Immortal range is kinda a big deal, especially vs 1-1-1 build but other than that its more of a subtle "slightly more cost effective now" type of buff.
HSM will still be rare, no terran will spend that kind of gas when they can EMP, and ravens dont work with bio, only with mech, so far as i have seen.
Warp prism buff is actually pretty daring, and hopefully toss learns to abuse warp prisms more.
and while Ultras are laughable units to most zergs, they are actually a great choice in some very selective situations. With less build time they are easier to get to which makes the strategy (ling->inf->bane drops->ultras) that focus around them more powerful.
The infestor nerf is much needed. BUT what the nerf does is slightly weaken the mass infestor ling strategy. It DOES NOT break it down and make it build of the past, in order for that to happen people need to figure out the meta-game that beats Inf-Ling. so this nerf will not stop people massing infestors.
And finally.. what we have all been waiting for... the previous laughing stock of startcraft 2...
Zerg can now scout cost efficiently.
Lets face it, Toss gets the robo anyway, and even then a cloaked detector for only 75 gas is worth getting the robo anyway, and the combined cost was still less then zergs option for a dedicated scout. Terran has scans, that dont actually cost anything. Yes that's right, those 270 minerals will still be there for your scvs, you just wont have them immediately. qq.
Zerg used to have to spend 100 gas for a highly visible (if not hilariously conspicuous) scout that moved at 1.88 move speed and still got killed by marines and stalkers before seeing what you needed to and actually cost an additional 100 minerals because thats supply that just got killed failing to see the impending all in... -_-
But in the end i'd say barracks + drone buff is most important. people use workers all the time to defend early aggro, and drones not being able to kill the patrolling probe blocking your expo, or blockade running to place a cannon is a big deal.
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science vessel was my favourite unit in broodwar, o wait!
Ahhh wait i see it in sc2, called the raven, can 1 hit a group of banes (lurkers)
sc2 reminding me of old bw days.
50/50 overseer patch from 50/100 is best
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I love how everyone on these forums is a balance expert. Especially when the nerfs and buffs are attributed to 'qqing noobs'. Then moving on to say "blizzard cant make balance around lower levels". The truth is, competitive and professionals are NOT the majority. Anyway, this is still PTR, so quit fucking bitching and wait until the official update before commenting. OR do as you and every other person concerned with balance in the game should do. GO TEST IT ON THE FUCKING PTR, that is what the hell its there for. Thanks.
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Lets face it, Toss gets the robo anyway, and even then a cloaked detector for only 75 gas is worth getting the robo anyway, and the combined cost was still less then zergs option for a dedicated scout. Terran has scans, that dont actually cost anything. Yes that's right, those 270 minerals will still be there for your scvs, you just wont have them immediately. qq.
Zerg used to have to spend 100 gas for a highly visible (if not hilariously conspicuous) scout that moved at 1.88 move speed and still got killed by marines and stalkers before seeing what you needed to and actually cost an additional 100 minerals because thats supply that just got killed failing to see the impending all in... -_-.
You learn something new every day, here I was thinking people just dropped the changeling to scout instead of risking their 100/100 overseer.
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On August 26 2011 11:43 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 11:07 Fuzzmosis wrote:On August 26 2011 10:33 Dommk wrote:On August 26 2011 10:00 Fuzzmosis wrote:On August 26 2011 09:22 Dommk wrote:On August 26 2011 07:59 Fuzzmosis wrote:On August 26 2011 07:50 Dommk wrote:On August 26 2011 07:43 Fuzzmosis wrote:On August 26 2011 07:35 Dommk wrote:Cast 2 storms on a group of 21 hold position zealots (In shockinlyg perfect formation for this situation) and you kill 21 zealots for 150 energy over 8 seconds.
Cast 2 Seeker Missles on 21 hold position zealots (also, in startlingly tight and perfect formation) and you kill 5 (And leave 8 undamaged) for 250 energy (and in about 1 second unless you cast right over top the unit, which means friendly fire will nuke a Raven)
How did you work this out 0o? I can't find the damage calculations for Seeker as the unit is further away from the centre of the explosion. And by 8 Zealots being undamaged, you mean they only took shield damage correct? But now lets make a comparison, 2 Storms on a group of Zealots running away and you won't scratch them, 2 Seekers on a group of Zealots running away and you still have the same result. 8 seconds is a really LONG time That came from a day when I 2xHSM'ed an attacking Zealot army that was mobile and did around 400 damage, then decided to go to Yee olde Unite Testere (With Extra E's!) And test just how much damage HSM did. It wasn't pretty. Actually, going off memory, I think I couldn't hit 2 zealots with the storms, so only 19 died. My apologies on that. I actually mean that it didn't do any damage at all. Baneling explosion without fall off has a larger damage range than HSM even at it's 25 damage range. Also, you're wrong. 2 Storms on a group of zealots running away and you'll do maybe 40 shield damage to all of them (Kinda similar to what 2 Emps would do). 2 HSM's on a group of zealots running away and you'll do 0 damage because HSM needs to be cast only when someone isn't paying attention or is moving towards you (And because of friendly fire, is very dangerous to cast a HSM on a 150 hp zealot charging towards 6 55 hp marines. It's pretty awkward to need to kite your own spell) I don't understand how it can do 0 damage when the Spell has a 33% greater AOE than Psi-Storm. If Psi-Storm can hit 19 Zealots, then Seeker should be able to hit 25 Seeker Missile is almost 0.25 Speed faster than a Chargelot (0.75 faster than a regular one). If you Seeker Missile a Zealot in the middle of the pack, there is almost no chance it can be micro'd away. But for all intensive purposes, if it can be hit by Storm then it can be hit by Seeker Missile. But different Spells are different. Psi-Storm can only ever do 20DPS per 1.5radious AOE. Multiple Seekers on the other hand can be chained, which makes the spell significantly stronger when the Raven number increases So... let's see here. I cast a missile that is 9 distance away from an already retreating zealot, moving .75 speed faster. You're saying that in 12 seconds, the zealots cannot be scattered. I'm worried about your opinion of protoss players. Again, if they are charging or not retreating, different story, but this is your example. (IF they have charge, if they are retreating, they can't even be hit if durable materials DOUBLED the length because the missile craps out) For the damage range, I have no idea why. I did the test in a unit tester. Maybe the map maker modified the HSM in that case, but storm was more effective than HSM period for less energy. Even 1 cast. You're free to clump up high HP units (And low HP units) and give it your own test. You may come back and say "Fuzzy, you screwed up, clearly you did it wrong" or "Huh. That's stupid". Either or, but please do try it since your other explanations have worried me. Oh cool, so you start talking shots at me as well. Guess I see where this is going. First part is obviously wrong, which is worrying when a Terran player doesn't even know the cast range of their own spells nor the mechanics... Second part, it makes no sense what so ever that in YOUR example there were MORE Zealots that took NO damage from HS than with Psi Storm. Hunter Seeker has a _33%_ greater AOE. So all it means is your tests were incredibly faulty when something basic as a spell with greater AOE hitting less units standing still than a Spell with smaller AOE. I really can't take your "Tests" very seriously at all, sorry NInja Edit, like you!
Yes, Psi Storm does have the potential to hit your own zealots. Not going to even try to deny that. But being a cheap, instant cast that can be produced easier than a Raven (Less Gas, less wait, 5 second summon) that does more damage over an area (You keep calling that into question, I keep telling you to test) doing friendly fire or a suicide attack is better than a detector with other useful spells suiciding because of a terrible, terrible spell. In addition, you need to march your own units into the spell. HSM can be led into your own units (Assuming amazing Micro, or amazing luck). I'm sorry, you may act like I'm being snide by disregarding your "Tests", but they ARE faulty. I mean, a spell with 1.5 AOE hits more units than a spell with 2.0 AOE. I can't understand how when something as basic as that is wrong that you wouldn't somehow think you fucked up your tests in one way or another. High Tempalrs put a 45second cooldown on warpgates. Protoss does have flexibility with warpgate units, but you just can't create whatever you want whenever you want, you have to juggle cooldowns to create a proper balanced army. A raven costs 50/50 more than a Templar, but the benefits? It provides Detection, most almost twice as fast, it can fly AND has other spells which can greatly benefit the Terran army. Obviously due to the convenience of Tech labs and such compared to Warpgates, a Protoss WILL have more Templars in their army, but there is nothing wrong with that. Different races will have different units, but at least damage wise, Seeker Missile has the same energy efficiency as a 3second Storm which is pretty goddamn good if you consider that all its damage is BURST as opposed to a 20dps AOE--you would except something that does it's damage over a longer period of time with a smaller AOE in a static location would be more efficient if a unit stands in it for the full duration. A Hunter Seeker could be lead into your army, but the only Melee unit Terran actually has is an SCV--good luck trying to lead Seeker Missile into ranged Units that move faster than it and have soo much DPS that they can almost instantly snipe whatever that unit is Guess what I did? I tested. You are correct, and the raven does have a larger splash radius. For instance, If a group of 35 zerglings are clumped up, 22 will survive but all take damage, whereas for a storm, 16 will survive but not take any damage (Unless they, you know, run through the storm, seeing as they only lasted 2 seconds). I apologize for that inconsistancy, you are entirely correct that the range is larger. I suppose I remembered wrong. Now, try it out for yourself. Do it. (Note, clumped up means a perfect circle, not like a wave which is how zerglings/zealots will be clumped up. So, now we've come to these conclusions: A 3 second AOE spell that costs 75 energy will do more damage than a 125 energy spell that has a higher cost to cast it/build. It will also be more likely fatal units who don't move. A Raven can only cast a HSM and one other spell (after waiting for 125-150 energy from spawn). A templar can cast 2 storms and one feedback, then merge from more safe distances assuming he's not alone. (Generally, merging is unsafe but provides a damage soaker if combat is initiated). As I said before, I would love to Ape someone who's using HSM's well, but their cost to potential ratio is extremely sad. Just a random note: That sudden burst of speed is at very close range. Like, 1. You're given 6 in game seconds if you're running to do some form of reaction, which is far more than you get from a storm (You instantly react, or take 50-100% damage). You argue in a strange fashion how good HSM is by pointing out how weak it is. I'm not trying to say HSM is as good as Psi-Storm, what I'm saying that comparatively, it is not that worse. The spells shouldn't be equivalent. Psi-Storm SHOULD be stronger than HSM because of how reliant Protoss are on it. Psi-Storm, just like Fungal are two of the strongest spells in the game, so much so that Protoss and Zerg really can't function in the late game without them. But Terran DOES NOT NEED a Fungal or a Psi-Storm, they are completely capable of making it into the late game without the need of a strong spell. If HSM was as strong as either of those two spells then Terran would undoubtedly be _overpowered_. But HSM isn't significantly worse, just looking at its limitations, stats, damage and other uses of a Raven, HSM is a _GOOD_ spell. There are situations that HSM is going to be stronger than Psi-Storm, very common situations. The random speed is within _2 range_, not 1. Not that the Spell should somehow guarantee 100% AOE if it is casted, that is absurd. Ofcourse people have time to split units at max distance and are retreating, if they couldn't then the spell would be ridiculous, but there _are_ going to be situations where people just won't have the time to split i.e Speedlots/Lings/Banes charging in HSM is bad enough that in almost any other situation, spending the energy into another spell and money into another unit (Siege Tank!) is more valuable. The only situation HSM is amazing is a large number of mass grouped units in a tiny tiny area that are otherwise engaged. Chain Fungal or a single storm from a safe range against this is just almost as potent, per energy cost, or more potent. It would be amazing to cast 2 HSM's after a vortex before they were made invincible, although the friendly fire may nerf even that. On that note, why don't archons have FF as well in my list of murmerings. Keeping a spell so useless that it will only be used in 1 very specific situation is not.... very good. Who knows, 3 years from now with the change (or even the change reverted) people will have discovered many more uses. Just right now, your hypothesis about it being a GOOD spell implies it would be used and invested in. It isn't for a GOOD reason. It's not a GOOD spell. Making it GOOD without overpowering it isn't easy, but right now, it's clearly on the threshhold of "BAD". This is so ridiculous. You are just saying the spell is bad for the sake of it. Did you even read your own interpretation of of "The only situation HSM is amazing is"? You act like units being grouped up in a 2 radious AOE happens once a blue moon in Starcraft. Either way, HSM shouldn't be soo good that the sole reason you get a Raven is because of it. If that is the case then clearly you know the spell is broken as Terran certainly doesn't need a Storm/Fungal equivalent. Ravens play a much higher fuction in the Terran army as opposed to a Templar or a Infestor, they are like swiss army knifes, if its spells weren't all situational then it would be a stupid unit considering how much it already does. It takes a long time for people to incorporate new things into their already Standard play, but just because it isn't being used doesn't mean it is bad, it might mean it takes more effort. Bust damage is one of the hardest things to balance, especially if it is AOE and ESPECIALLY if it is attached to a spell where it can be casted multiple times in a single area. (Triple especially when you also consider the Terran is the race which has the highest DPS army in the game--which cannot be dealt with without AOE) There are only two things in this game that does higher burst damage than a HSM. First being a Nuke and the second being the Yamato cannon. Hunter Seeker can't be a convenient spell to use. If the Spell were to be made 75 energy then to compensate HSM would most likely have to be made to be pathetically weak. The high energy cost is obviously due to balance reasons, think how stupid it would be if a Raven could cast Two Seeker missiles in a row, you could get into situations where you can instantly gib units in AOE.
I won't disagree that balancing it would be a terrible task, but I'd be interested in seeing the raven get that 75 energy cast (after research of course). Because honestly, unless they decided to Buff that AOE damage for some reason (Which would maybe justify the high cost...), at that point, it will seem worth it for Terrans to experiment with HSM, and see in what situations it's justified because the cost right now isn't. After experimenting on the PTR (God don't put a large change like that live without a lot of testing) maybe keep it because suddenly it's working as intended, or maybe try and make it 100 energy, or if the speed is enough of a change! Right now, it seems like the spell is now just a tiny bit less dodgeable, but not worthwhile even if it connects. Investing 250/350 + 100/200 for each cast + time for maybe the same damage as a well placed storm?
Here's the thing: You get High Templar because they have 3 useful combat abilities. You get infestors because they have 3 useful combat abilities. You get Ravens because they provide detection, have 2 useful combat abilities, but they cost more (and have a higher opportunity cost compared to the value of producing 2 medivacs/vikings at a time, or a Banshee) because of how Terran produces units. Even including cost as an issue, A zerg or protoss can make 10 superior casters far faster than a Terran Can. Massing Ravens is only possible if you're not under dire need of other units now.
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On August 26 2011 12:37 Trealador wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 12:34 windsupernova wrote:On August 26 2011 12:18 momonami5 wrote:
Why do ppl think the blue flame nerf gonna change anything lol if hellions get in your mineral line and your workers line up they gonna still die even after the patch. Because people see a nerf and think that means the thing in question will be useless. Things TL experts have told had become useless: -Zealots -4 gate -High Templars -Tanks -Thors -Void Rays -Bunker Rushes and now BFH will join the ranks of those useless units. The only unti I have seen become useless through a nerf is the reaper and that is debatable. Most of those are Protoss units...other 3 are terran but anyone with a brain sees they were just crying. Notice 0 zerg units. Zerg never cry.
Idra? I think anyone cries louder than he does.
Edit- I meant think, not "don't think"
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EPT
