Do NOT donate anything to this petition! That is just an unfortunate advertisement on the site and does nothing to help us - we're gaining no money from this at all. We're just after your support!
With the close of Map of the Month Season 1, the Team Liquid Mapping Community feels that it has two maps worthy of a place in the map pools of major tournaments and the Blizzard Ladder.
funcmode's Sanctuarium and Antares777's Hysteria (currently being redone aesthetically) have proven through many Grand-Master-level games that they are quite well balanced, accommodate varied styles of play, and promote entertaining games (you can see such games in MrBitter's archives or with this Replay Pack)
But getting into major map pools isn't easy, in particular the Blizzard Ladder. To do so, we're looking for your support!
We've written up a petition so that SC2 fans can see good, community-made maps in all of their favorite tournaments, and so (hopefully) they can be played on the ladder!
Please, Sign Our Petition! We can't change SC2 without the support of all of you.
Maybe you watched the Map of the Month tournament and were blown away by the amazing games. Maybe you've played one too many games on Delta Quadrant. Maybe you remember the good old days of Brood War, where community maps were ALL that was used. Maybe, you just want to support the TL community!
Whatever the reason, we hope to reach our goal of 10,000 signatures as quickly as possible! Thank you!
Current Signature Count: 1,207
After you click to submit your petition on the main page it takes you to the donations page. It's clear that you don't have to donate, but it's hard to tell right away whether you have to click somewhere else to finalize your signature. I almost closed the window without actually adding my signature because I thought it was already confirmed.
Also, please upvote on reddit/starcraft! The more people who see this petition, the sooner we will reach our goal!
I'm not convinced these are good maps. Convince me. Well, you can watch replays or VODs with MrBitter and Chill (skip to 1:39:40). Or, you can test the maps yourself! Search for "MotM" on battlenet to find these two maps and the other three finalists!
Below is the petition, which you can also read on the petition link above.
StarCraft is nothing without the maps the players play on. Blizzard provided us with some starting maps, but for every Metalopolis, there's a Delta Quadrant and Blistering Sands. The commonly used StarCraft II map pool needs to move beyond primarily Blizzard maps, and include more of the community-made maps. MotM has spent the last six months pulling excellent maps from the public community, with submissions from NA, EU, KR and more.
Therefore, we petition today to have MotM Hysteria and MotM Sanctuarium added to the following map pools:
Blizzard Ladder Pool Global Star League Major League Gaming North American Star League European Star League IGN Pro League
These maps have been proven to support high-level play and many different strategies. They are more balanced than many maps in the above pools. These maps represent the best of the mapping community, and deserve to be recognized as such.
Blizzard, GSL, MLG, NASL, ESL, IGN: Please add these maps to your map pool!
*Note: European Star League should read Electronic Sports League. I wrote this in a huge rush unfortunately :/. There isn't a good way to go back and edit the petition, so we'll just let it be known that ESL is actually ESL :p
On June 30 2011 11:29 AndAgain wrote: Browder has said that they don't want ladder maps to be too macroish to scare away low level players. I wouldn't have my hopes up.
I agree that chances are low, but for other reasons. They definitely don't refuse to add macro maps since they added TalDarim Altar.
signed but the reason they won't do it, which I disagree with, is because they believe that larger maps can be not only imbalanced but are terrible for low league players. The defense is that you can veto the maps you don't like but there are not enough vetoes sadly. If anything, you can expect the larger maps (like tal'darim) to be changed or removed. I doubt their mindset will change sadly. They do have a reasonable defense though.
I loved watching the MOTM games on Hysteria. What a badass map to spectate. Haven't had a chance to play on it yet but I'd love to see a gritty map like this added to the pool.
Sad my personal favourite (The Eighteenth) was not chosen to represent the community, but eh.
Please spotlight this in the community news section!
Also, are there any plans to have members of the TL mapping community actually representing a sort of Team Liquid mapping team? Like, LS and Jacky are both on the Clan Prime and seem to be accepted as the "official" mapmakers of the GSL for example. I think it would benefit both TL and the greater community to have an official mapping team so Blizzard is aware of what's out there.
We know that the big leagues are all looking around for maps, we know everyone is looking towards the GSL, that everyone is aware of iCCup and their mapping efforts - I think having a third "power" with officially sanctioned TL maps would be a great way to get Blizzard (and other big leagues) to take notice.
Certainly more than a petition on a website, at least.
Sad my personal favourite (The Eighteenth) was not chosen to represent the community, but eh.
Please spotlight this in the community news section!
Also, are there any plans to have members of the TL mapping community actually representing a sort of Team Liquid mapping team? Like, LS and Jacky are both on the Clan Prime and seem to be accepted as the "official" mapmakers of the GSL for example. I think it would benefit both TL and the greater community to have an official mapping team so Blizzard is aware of what's out there.
We know that the big leagues are all looking around for maps, we know everyone is looking towards the GSL, that everyone is aware of iCCup and their mapping efforts - I think having a third "power" with officially sanctioned TL maps would be a great way to get Blizzard (and other big leagues) to take notice.
Certainly more than a petition on a website, at least.
Sad my personal favourite (The Eighteenth) was not chosen to represent the community, but eh.
Please spotlight this in the community news section!
Also, are there any plans to have members of the TL mapping community actually representing a sort of Team Liquid mapping team? Like, LS and Jacky are both on the Clan Prime and seem to be accepted as the "official" mapmakers of the GSL for example. I think it would benefit both TL and the greater community to have an official mapping team so Blizzard is aware of what's out there.
We know that the big leagues are all looking around for maps, we know everyone is looking towards the GSL, that everyone is aware of iCCup and their mapping efforts - I think having a third "power" with officially sanctioned TL maps would be a great way to get Blizzard (and other big leagues) to take notice.
Certainly more than a petition on a website, at least.
I like to think that Map of the Month IS the Team Liquid mapping team. We're very community focused, we get submissions from all the kinds of mappers on TL.
On June 30 2011 11:47 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Those 2 actually look like really great maps, although the visuals on the 2nd one are a bit ugly =O
Hysteria is getting a complete aesthetic overhaul - I suppose I should add that to the first post!
Oh REALLY?! I sort of love it. It's so bonkers it's pretty, and it actually does look nice screen by screen in game. Please tell me it's a touch up, not a departure from the style.
One of the things I really like is how the textures distinguish the areas of the map. It helps the play and it gives it character.
Awesome, signed. I am skeptical that this will get anywhere because I'm a cynic, but I'm very hopeful this will go somewhere because I think this would be awesome!
Sad my personal favourite (The Eighteenth) was not chosen to represent the community, but eh.
Please spotlight this in the community news section!
Also, are there any plans to have members of the TL mapping community actually representing a sort of Team Liquid mapping team? Like, LS and Jacky are both on the Clan Prime and seem to be accepted as the "official" mapmakers of the GSL for example. I think it would benefit both TL and the greater community to have an official mapping team so Blizzard is aware of what's out there.
We know that the big leagues are all looking around for maps, we know everyone is looking towards the GSL, that everyone is aware of iCCup and their mapping efforts - I think having a third "power" with officially sanctioned TL maps would be a great way to get Blizzard (and other big leagues) to take notice.
Certainly more than a petition on a website, at least.
I like to think that Map of the Month IS the Team Liquid mapping team. We're very community focused, we get submissions from all the kinds of mappers on TL.
Oh, absolutely!
I'd just like it to be properly official, with tags and spotlights and everything. I'm sure the powers at TL have additional ways to contact Blizzard with these maps, presenting them as Team Liquid's official contribution to the map pool and to other leagues, start giving them play in the TLOpen, like iCCup does with their maps in their tournaments - that kind of thing.
It would be fucking amazing if blizzard added these maps, because of map pool decisions like DQ and slagpits, it's quite clear they have no idea what constitutes good, fun gameplay.
Both of these maps look...fun. A feature missing in the announced S3 maps. Signed, these maps entering the ladder pool would be amazing. I'm sure watching games played on them would be fun too. Map of the month kind of flew under my radar I guess but I'll be sure to pay more attention to it in the future.
Signed, but have you seen the maps Blizzard has elected to add on their own? They're awful 99% of the time. I highly doubt you'll get anywhere w/ them seeing as they don't understand what a "good" map constitutes, nor a bad one.
Community maps are obviously far better for what we define as good gameplay, but unfortunately, Blizzard has a different idea of what 'good gameplay' is. Just look at their explanations of the new S3 maps. They strictly define a few of them as 'rush' maps, or as having 'rush' gameplay in certain spawning positions. The fact that they say this like it isn't a bad thing is troubling.
The awful state of the current map pool is purposeful. It's not ignorance on their part, it's just that they believe that being able to take a third base on every map is a bad thing. I doubt Blizzard ladder will ever change, and for that reason, it will continue to be worthless.
I'm sure you guys on the mapping team have seen some of the alternative ladder systems like NTBL popping up. Rather than trying to convince Blizzard to alter their mindset, it's probably better to support ladders that actual users have control over.
If you took 20 never before seen maps, 10 from Blizzard and 10 that were community made, and you had to decide which were which, no one would be able to do it.
Fact is, people reject Blizzard maps simply because they're Blizzard, and embrace community maps (even awful ones) simply because they aren't Blizzard maps. I wish I could give an anti-signature to this petition. It's one thing to create maps and hope the community embraces them, it's other to insult other peoples' (Blizzard's) work in order to promote your own.
On June 30 2011 12:04 Ocedic wrote: If you took 20 never before seen maps, 10 from Blizzard and 10 that were community made, and you had to decide which were which, no one would be able to do it.
So you're saying the community maps are good enough to appear on the Blizzard ladder?
Awesome! TL mappers thank you for your vote of confidence. ^_^
On June 30 2011 12:04 Ocedic wrote: If you took 20 never before seen maps, 10 from Blizzard and 10 that were community made, and you had to decide which were which, no one would be able to do it.
Fact is, people reject Blizzard maps simply because they're Blizzard, and embrace community maps (even awful ones) simply because they aren't Blizzard maps. I wish I could give an anti-signature to this petition. It's one thing to create maps and hope the community embraces them, it's other to insult other peoples' (Blizzard's) work in order to promote your own.
but it'd be pretty obvious to tell the worst blizzard maps from the best community ones, which is the whole point of the petition
On June 30 2011 12:04 Ocedic wrote: If you took 20 never before seen maps, 10 from Blizzard and 10 that were community made, and you had to decide which were which, no one would be able to do it.
Fact is, people reject Blizzard maps simply because they're Blizzard, and embrace community maps (even awful ones) simply because they aren't Blizzard maps. I wish I could give an anti-signature to this petition. It's one thing to create maps and hope the community embraces them, it's other to insult other peoples' (Blizzard's) work in order to promote your own.
Meh, you could tell the maps of the top Korean mapmakers apart from Blizzard maps. They tend to experiment more (Less minerals at some bases, rich geysers) and allow for generally easier expansion and longer rush distances, along with less rocks across expansions.
On June 30 2011 12:04 Ocedic wrote: If you took 20 never before seen maps, 10 from Blizzard and 10 that were community made, and you had to decide which were which, no one would be able to do it.
Fact is, people reject Blizzard maps simply because they're Blizzard, and embrace community maps (even awful ones) simply because they aren't Blizzard maps. I wish I could give an anti-signature to this petition. It's one thing to create maps and hope the community embraces them, it's other to insult other peoples' (Blizzard's) work in order to promote your own.
But if you could see which maps allowed close spawns, it would be pretty easy
However, I agree that Blizzard has put out decent maps, aside from DQ, Slag Pits, Scrap Station, and close positions Metal and Shattered. With three downvotes, though, my games as a Zerg turn out okay for the most part.
On June 30 2011 11:34 DeepBlu2 wrote: signed but the reason they won't do it, which I disagree with, is because they believe that larger maps can be not only imbalanced but are terrible for low league players. The defense is that you can veto the maps you don't like but there are not enough vetoes sadly. If anything, you can expect the larger maps (like tal'darim) to be changed or removed. I doubt their mindset will change sadly. They do have a reasonable defense though.
If their big concern is lower level players, maybe they should consider adding maps that are for diamond and higher players only. That way the lower players aren't overwhelmed and the higher up players still get what they want. I personally would love for a larger map pool.
Here's something interesting. I played a while with DQ un-vetoed. I probably played 50 games in mid diamond without getting it. When I finally got a game on it, I was really surprised. I was sure I had vetoed it. So many people veto this map you rarely have to play it even if you don't veto it (in my region and approximate MMR).
I'd also add a note to the OP. After you click to submit your petition on the main page it takes you to the donations page. It's clear that you don't have to donate, but it's hard to tell right away whether you have to click somewhere else to finalize your signature. I almost closed the window without actually adding my signature because I thought it was already confirmed.
Give some instructions. You'll increase the number of signatures you get by eliminating human error.
On June 30 2011 11:29 AndAgain wrote: Browder has said that they don't want ladder maps to be too macroish to scare away low level players. I wouldn't have my hopes up.
If that truly was the case then they could just have different maps for low level players. No they have a pride issue. They like to think that their maps are equally good because hey, they put effort into making them. What they fail to realise is the decisionmakers in the mapmaking team does not have nearly enough game knowledge to contribute with good maps. It's not their fault but they need to stop being stubborn and start listening to the community.
i think we need better maps, it makes NO SENSE AT ALL to hve maps like xel naga caverns where its imposible for zerg to take 3 bases while at the same time its very easy for the others to get 3, 1 of them gold , and hold the middle.. its so easy to deny a zergs 3rd.. just siege of ff, kill the 3rd and back down.. also, theres no way to defend your 3rd or gold, THE CONCAVE IS FOR THE ATTACKER !!!!
Someone throw this on screddit and wellplayed too!
I'm also sad that Eighteenth didn't make it in... but I don't know if we're ready for another 3-player map after Testbug and Xel'Naga Fortress, even if Eighteenth is my 2nd fave to Hysteria.
Blizzard ladder isn't probably going to add any maps until they are "proven" much like Tal'darim is a non-Blizz map that got included after the positive feedback it received in GSTL.
I'm okay with this, the Blizzard ladder doesn't have to be the /most/ cutting edge. Consider that people may only play a couple games a week, I'd rather not have them have to get used to the fast rotation of tournament map change.
So basically: if you want maps on blizzard ladder, get them in big tournaments.
On June 30 2011 12:38 Headnoob wrote: Hysteria has so many easy bases, no
edit: they both do, double no.
I'm curious why you think that's a bad thing? In my opinion it's a plus
The chokes are too easy to defend so early, a turtling terran could very easily take 2 extra bases and probably go unpunished. it's not quite as bad on sanctuarium, but yeah.
With the proximity of expansions, once a push happens and a base goes down, it's highly unlikely the push will able to be stopped.
On June 30 2011 13:08 DeckOneBell wrote: Blizzard ladder isn't probably going to add any maps until they are "proven" much like Tal'darim is a non-Blizz map that got included after the positive feedback it received in GSTL.
I'm okay with this, the Blizzard ladder doesn't have to be the /most/ cutting edge. Consider that people may only play a couple games a week, I'd rather not have them have to get used to the fast rotation of tournament map change.
So basically: if you want maps on blizzard ladder, get them in big tournaments.
There's so many GSL maps that are nice, yet the only one that's used is tal'darim. The ones I'd especially like to see on the ladder are dualsite and bel'shir beach. It'd be awesome to have more 2 player maps on the map pool. Especially if blizzard wants casual-noob friendly maps, well 2 player maps are decidedly simpler because of only 1 possible positional spawn.
Honestly, does blizzard really think 4 player maps are the way to go because the argument of noob-friendlyness when regarding 2player vs 4player maps is pretty simple.
honestly, this has me thinking... it would be neat if blizzard had a way that we could vote on the best 1v1 maps that werent in the ladder or have pro players pick 5 maps that they wanted in the pool and use that to add a few new maps in :O
On June 30 2011 12:04 Ocedic wrote: If you took 20 never before seen maps, 10 from Blizzard and 10 that were community made, and you had to decide which were which, no one would be able to do it.
If Blizzard makes new maps, I accept the challenge. Unless they dramatically improve their concepts, aesthetics, and balance, it'll always be easy to tell.
However, the true point is to get good maps into tournaments, not just remove Blizzard maps. For example, the OP/Petition clearly states that there are good Blizzard maps like Metalopolis. This point is to remove bad ones and replace them with these community maps.
On June 30 2011 12:04 Ocedic wrote: Fact is, people reject Blizzard maps simply because they're Blizzard, and embrace community maps (even awful ones) simply because they aren't Blizzard maps. I wish I could give an anti-signature to this petition.
What? How about XelNaga Caverns (one, if not the most popular sc2 map)? What about all of love for Shakuras Plateau? I don't hear anybody begging for them to be removed from the ladder.
On June 30 2011 12:04 Ocedic wrote: It's one thing to create maps and hope the community embraces them, it's other to insult other peoples' (Blizzard's) work in order to promote your own.
When is Blizzards work insulted?
Insult - in·sult/inˈsəlt/ Speak to or treat with disrespect or scornful abuse.
iGrok only mentions in the petition that there are currently bad maps in the map pool. This is a fact of the map, not disrespect towards Blizzard. The promotion is justified; the proposed maps are much better than some of those in the current ladder.
I like both maps and would love to see them in more tournaments and hopefully the ladder. Hope we get 10,000 signatures but I'm doubting it will happen.
On June 30 2011 12:04 Ocedic wrote: If you took 20 never before seen maps, 10 from Blizzard and 10 that were community made, and you had to decide which were which, no one would be able to do it.
If Blizzard makes new maps, I accept the challenge. Unless they dramatically improve their concepts, aesthetics, and balance, it'll always be easy to tell.
However, the true point is to get good maps into tournaments, not just remove Blizzard maps. For example, the OP/Petition clearly states that there are good Blizzard maps like Metalopolis. This point is to remove bad ones and replace them with these community maps.
On June 30 2011 12:04 Ocedic wrote: Fact is, people reject Blizzard maps simply because they're Blizzard, and embrace community maps (even awful ones) simply because they aren't Blizzard maps. I wish I could give an anti-signature to this petition.
What? How about XelNaga Caverns (one, if not the most popular sc2 map)? What about all of love for Shakuras Plateau? I don't hear anybody begging for them to be removed from the ladder.
On June 30 2011 12:04 Ocedic wrote: It's one thing to create maps and hope the community embraces them, it's other to insult other peoples' (Blizzard's) work in order to promote your own.
When is Blizzards work insulted?
Insult - in·sult/inˈsəlt/ Speak to or treat with disrespect or scornful abuse.
iGrok only mentions in the petition that there are currently bad maps in the map pool. This is a fact of the map, not disrespect towards Blizzard. The promotion is justified; the proposed maps are much better than some of those in the current ladder.
On June 30 2011 12:04 Ocedic wrote: If you took 20 never before seen maps, 10 from Blizzard and 10 that were community made, and you had to decide which were which, no one would be able to do it.
If Blizzard makes new maps, I accept the challenge. Unless they dramatically improve their concepts, aesthetics, and balance, it'll always be easy to tell.
However, the true point is to get good maps into tournaments, not just remove Blizzard maps. For example, the OP/Petition clearly states that there are good Blizzard maps like Metalopolis. This point is to remove bad ones and replace them with these community maps.
On June 30 2011 12:04 Ocedic wrote: Fact is, people reject Blizzard maps simply because they're Blizzard, and embrace community maps (even awful ones) simply because they aren't Blizzard maps. I wish I could give an anti-signature to this petition.
What? How about XelNaga Caverns (one, if not the most popular sc2 map)? What about all of love for Shakuras Plateau? I don't hear anybody begging for them to be removed from the ladder.
On June 30 2011 12:04 Ocedic wrote: It's one thing to create maps and hope the community embraces them, it's other to insult other peoples' (Blizzard's) work in order to promote your own.
When is Blizzards work insulted?
Insult - in·sult/inˈsəlt/ Speak to or treat with disrespect or scornful abuse.
iGrok only mentions in the petition that there are currently bad maps in the map pool. This is a fact of the map, not disrespect towards Blizzard. The promotion is justified; the proposed maps are much better than some of those in the current ladder.
stop being so logical, people like to argue
Lol, xD. Isn't the point of an argument to be logical? Ahem, otherwise its just a rant...
On June 30 2011 12:38 Headnoob wrote: Hysteria has so many easy bases, no
edit: they both do, double no.
I'm curious why you think that's a bad thing? In my opinion it's a plus
The chokes are too easy to defend so early, a turtling terran could very easily take 2 extra bases and probably go unpunished. it's not quite as bad on sanctuarium, but yeah.
With the proximity of expansions, once a push happens and a base goes down, it's highly unlikely the push will able to be stopped.
but the expansions are easy for all races. terran and protoss benefit from the chokes, and zerg benefits from not having to make a ton of units to kill some fucking rocks (I fucking hate rocks) in order to expand. you don't always have to punish an expansion, you can often just expand yourself
I agree that the proximity of expansions leads to this, but so does having small maps and both of these maps are relatively large compared to some blizz maps. also, having far away, impossible to defend expansions doesn't help the gameplay much either since you're forced into low econ allins :S
Wouldn´t this work better as a thread in the Bnet forums instead of a petition.
I didn´t sign this because apart from the Blizzard Map pool this seems like an agenda from someone to get their maps recognized, which is fine I suppose but I feel its latching on that people want tourney maps for the ladder and basically asks for their maps to be included in other tournaments.
But I guess its hard for new map makers to make a name for themeselves, only iccup and GSL maps seem to get any recognition
On June 30 2011 13:22 monitor wrote: What? How about XelNaga Caverns (one, if not the most popular sc2 map)? What about all of love for Shakuras Plateau? I don't hear anybody begging for them to be removed from the ladder.
actually... xel naga and shakuras aren't really amazing, although they're far, far better than some of the other maps blizz has made. xelnaga is very, very hard to win zvt when terran takes the gold, and shakuras is full of chokes so zvp is pretty hard. that said, there are probably some zerg favoured ones in there that my bias is hiding (shattered temple maybe?) and the advantage given by the maps is very small. but they aren't perfect by any means.
as much as i would like better maps the chances of blizzard doing something other than what they want are basically 0, regardless of how many people sign the petition
On June 30 2011 13:34 windsupernova wrote: Wouldn´t this work better as a thread in the Bnet forums instead of a petition.
I didn´t sign this because apart from the Blizzard Map pool this seems like an agenda from someone to get their maps recognized, which is fine I suppose but I feel its latching on that people want tourney maps for the ladder and basically asks for their maps to be included in other tournaments.
But I guess its hard for new map makers to make a name for themeselves, only iccup and GSL maps seem to get any recognition
The thing is...
Neither of these are my maps. In fact, none of the Map of the Month maps are mine. However, I'm doing everything I can to promote these maps, because I feel like they are the absolute best that the TL community has made.
On June 30 2011 13:38 Silent331 wrote: Posted on the BNet Forums with a link to this thread and an explicit message saying that this is not my petition
The first map could work if one of the thirds were removed (at this point obviously the one closest to the nat for rotational balance) and the other ramp at the nat that was facing the now-removed expo was removed. Else, there's just too many expos too close.
The second map...well, all I can say is that I wish I could see it clearly. Also I really hate nats with 2 entrances.
I'd love to see some newer, player-made maps. Blizzard has done some great work to start us up, but now that the players have a good understanding of the game, it's the players that will be able to make balanced maps. Blizzard should start letting the community direct itself, rather than pulling it towards rushes and cheeses.
On June 30 2011 13:51 shadymmj wrote: The first map could work if one of the thirds were removed (at this point obviously the one closest to the nat for rotational balance) and the other ramp at the nat that was facing the now-removed expo was removed. Else, there's just too many expos too close.
The second map...well, all I can say is that I wish I could see it clearly. Also I really hate nats with 2 entrances.
I really recommend you watch the replays or VODs of the casts! You might be surprised by some of the games.
Also, we just hit 300 signatures, in a little over 2 hours. Shit yeah, TeamLiquid, we keep this up and we'll have 10,000 signatures in no time!
On June 30 2011 13:22 monitor wrote: What? How about XelNaga Caverns (one, if not the most popular sc2 map)? What about all of love for Shakuras Plateau? I don't hear anybody begging for them to be removed from the ladder.
actually... xel naga and shakuras aren't really amazing, although they're far, far better than some of the other maps blizz has made. xelnaga is very, very hard to win zvt when terran takes the gold, and shakuras is full of chokes so zvp is pretty hard. that said, there are probably some zerg favoured ones in there that my bias is hiding (shattered temple maybe?) and the advantage given by the maps is very small. but they aren't perfect by any means.
Oh, I didn't mean they're balanced. I am just saying they're probably the 2 most widely used maps in tournaments, and they're both considered fun/balanced enough for tournament use. I only brought it up to use as a counterargument for saying that everybody instinctively hates Blizzard maps and blindly loves community maps.
I think the gold on XNC favors Pforts, and the natural is far too open for all the races to be comfortable fast expanding, especially Protoss. The sides of the map are also poorly designed because they do not allow much army movement in the corners. It serves as a purpose to make the expansion pattern less linear (a good thing), but it limits engagement areas to the center too much.
Shakuras Plateau doesn't have enough options for army pathing, and ends up being just big battles in the center or between naturals. This results in almost impossible scenerios for Zerg to harass ZvP, because you can't do a runby or flank. Protoss can defend their 3rd and 4th so easily because they just defend 1 choke/area, and deny any counter attacks (something Zergs rely on these days).
On June 30 2011 13:22 monitor wrote: What? How about XelNaga Caverns (one, if not the most popular sc2 map)? What about all of love for Shakuras Plateau? I don't hear anybody begging for them to be removed from the ladder.
actually... xel naga and shakuras aren't really amazing, although they're far, far better than some of the other maps blizz has made. xelnaga is very, very hard to win zvt when terran takes the gold, and shakuras is full of chokes so zvp is pretty hard. that said, there are probably some zerg favoured ones in there that my bias is hiding (shattered temple maybe?) and the advantage given by the maps is very small. but they aren't perfect by any means.
Oh, I didn't mean they're balanced. I am just saying they're probably the 2 most widely used maps in tournaments, and they're both considered fun/balanced enough for tournament use. I only brought it up to use as a counterargument for saying that everybody instinctively hates Blizzard maps and blindly loves community maps.
I think the gold on XNC favors Pforts, and the natural is far too open for all the races to be comfortable fast expanding, especially Protoss. The sides of the map are also poorly designed because they do not allow much army movement in the corners. It serves as a purpose to make the expansion pattern less linear (a good thing), but it limits engagement areas to the center too much.
Shakuras Plateau doesn't have enough options for army pathing, and ends up being just big battles in the center or between naturals. This results in almost impossible scenerios for Zerg to harass ZvP, because you can't do a runby or flank. Protoss can defend their 3rd and 4th so easily because they just defend 1 choke/area, and deny any counter attacks (something Zergs rely on these days).
yep yep, and I agree, not all blizzard maps are hated on/bad, there are definitely some good ones in there. but for every good/decent map they make, they also make something ugly like jungle basin or delta quadrant :/ + Show Spoiler +
I fucking hated jungle basin so much. 2base allins were the only possible thing but the whole map was a chokepoint >_______<
and yeah, I dont really want to see xel naga or shakuras plateau changed or removed. as long as a map isn't blatantly, ridiculously imbalanced, it adds variety and interest to have certain races/strategies leaned towards on different maps.
Thank you to everyone who has signed so far! In just three hours, we've already hit more than 3% of our signature goal! I'm blown away by that. On behalf of the mapping community, thank you!
Blizzard know much more than you do about how to make a RTS game and maps. They have been doing it for years. This is ridiculous, let them do what they are best at. Test the maps before you cry about it
On June 30 2011 15:17 Halcyondaze wrote: Blizzard know much more than you do about how to make a RTS game and maps. They have been doing it for years. This is ridiculous, let them do what they are best at. Test the maps before you cry about it
On June 30 2011 15:17 Halcyondaze wrote: Blizzard know much more than you do about how to make a RTS game and maps. They have been doing it for years. This is ridiculous, let them do what they are best at. Test the maps before you cry about it
o.O
Considering BW maps were all community made, I have to take issue with this statement.
Blizzard's map design is mediocre at best.
Sign it. Get the word out. Community mappers are doing some great work, and they deserve all the recognition in the world.
On June 30 2011 15:18 DNB wrote: If these maps were made by Blizzard, people would probably hate on them... I would rather sign a petition to add GSL /iccup maps on the ladder pool.
What makes GSL or iCCup maps better than these?
On June 30 2011 15:17 Halcyondaze wrote: Blizzard know much more than you do about how to make a RTS game and maps. They have been doing it for years. This is ridiculous, let them do what they are best at. Test the maps before you cry about it
A) The StarCraft and WarCraft (Blizzard's two major RTS titles) competitive scene's maps were NOT made by Blizzard. B) These maps have been tested, by Masters and Grand Masters players.
Please read a bit before assuming that this is your every-day QQ thread. This isn't. This is the culmination of the mapmaking community's efforts over the last six months.
I'm all for this idea, but seeing as how Blizzard only included one of the GSL maps and changed it to fit their standards (Tal'Darim third has rocks and 8 mineral patches, etc), I'm pretty sure one way or another they'll find a way to screw over user made maps.
I am happy you decided to go for both Sanctuarium and Hysteria, I was having a hard time figuring which I thought was the better map. They are both so very excellent and deserve to be played a lot more.
@People who like to argue: Did you actually look at the maps? Do you know what makes a good map? Can you look at a map and at a glance and decide whether it's actually a good map? The map makers here on team liquid have spent the past year analyzing maps for balance and features, critizising each other into perfection. Go have a look at the Map section. Open up random map threads and look at the amount of analysis and testing going through to make a good map.
These maps arent coinsidentaly good; they are the result of hours and hours of testing, analysis and critique of map makers and top players.
This is not hate against Blizzard maps; Some blizzard maps like XNC are actually quite good. The latest batch of maps arent though; they are terrible. Flawed in originality, balance and features. We as a community should do what we can to promote the good maps made by the community to take the place of the bad maps.
This is not in the personal interest of iGrok, he didnt make these, he is doing it for the players and the community so we can get some prober maps to play on.
I'll sign it because they look like half decent maps overall (definitely better than some current maps).
That said, these maps are not 100% balanced.
For example in the first map, if terran spawns in top left and zerg in top right or any adjacent positions in the circular positioning, its worse than close positions metalopolis for the zerg - tanks can safely siege the natural from the low ground.
The second map seems to favor protoss in the expanding section, and all paths go along one direction, so counterattacks are difficult and death pushes will be the only way to go for any race.
Not saying they're bad maps, just that they could be improved to some degree.
On June 30 2011 15:17 Halcyondaze wrote: Blizzard know much more than you do about how to make a RTS game and maps. They have been doing it for years. This is ridiculous, let them do what they are best at. Test the maps before you cry about it
Is that why we got Kulas Ravine, Steppes of War, Jungle Basin, Delta Quadrant, Desert Oasis, Scrap Station, Blistering Sands and other largely imbalanced maps from them?
They might make good maps but they're far from perfect. And well, I don't even need to mention the season 3 map pool.
I like Sanctuarium alot and played it a few times, Hysteria is kinda meh... Still better than DQ. Wish there was more maps to choose from so the players can choose aswell and not only the map makers them sleves.
I'm not sure about these maps they look OK but if you think those maps should be added to the map pool we should go the whole way and add a load of the maps produced by the iccup map team. They have so many good maps fetured in MLG, ESL tournaments and probably a few other things they have so many amazing maps.
On June 30 2011 15:41 rancidmeat wrote: I'll sign it because they look like half decent maps overall (definitely better than some current maps).
That said, these maps are not 100% balanced.
For example in the first map, if terran spawns in top left and zerg in top right or any adjacent positions in the circular positioning, its worse than close positions metalopolis for the zerg - tanks can safely siege the natural from the low ground.
The second map seems to favor protoss in the expanding section, and all paths go along one direction, so counterattacks are difficult and death pushes will be the only way to go for any race.
Not saying they're bad maps, just that they could be improved to some degree.
Regarding the first point: Fortunately, the Zerg could just as easily expand in the other direction. Thats one of the things that makes Sanctuarium so good - even though its rotational symmetry, positionally the imbalance is quite minimal.
To your second point: While all the paths do follow the same direction, there are 3 paths from one base to the other, making counterattacks very viable. I really encourage you to watch the VODs and play on it yourself!
On June 30 2011 15:53 crpeh wrote: I like Sanctuarium alot and played it a few times, Hysteria is kinda meh... Still better than DQ. Wish there was more maps to choose from so the players can choose aswell and not only the map makers them sleves.
Just fyi, when picking the maps, we pulled opinions from the pros who played on them as well as those who didn't, and took their opinions into account ^^
On June 30 2011 15:56 Zedex wrote: I'm not sure about these maps they look OK but if you think those maps should be added to the map pool we should go the whole way and add a load of the maps produced by the iccup map team. They have so many good maps fetured in MLG, ESL tournaments and probably a few other things they have so many amazing maps.
Im more for the idea of implementing the community's maps as a whole much more than just these specific maps, if something like this were to actually work it could get the ball rolling. Thats why i signed.
On June 30 2011 12:04 Ocedic wrote: If you took 20 never before seen maps, 10 from Blizzard and 10 that were community made, and you had to decide which were which, no one would be able to do it.
If Blizzard makes new maps, I accept the challenge. Unless they dramatically improve their concepts, aesthetics, and balance, it'll always be easy to tell.
However, the true point is to get good maps into tournaments, not just remove Blizzard maps. For example, the OP/Petition clearly states that there are good Blizzard maps like Metalopolis. This point is to remove bad ones and replace them with these community maps.
On June 30 2011 12:04 Ocedic wrote: Fact is, people reject Blizzard maps simply because they're Blizzard, and embrace community maps (even awful ones) simply because they aren't Blizzard maps. I wish I could give an anti-signature to this petition.
What? How about XelNaga Caverns (one, if not the most popular sc2 map)? What about all of love for Shakuras Plateau? I don't hear anybody begging for them to be removed from the ladder.
On June 30 2011 12:04 Ocedic wrote: It's one thing to create maps and hope the community embraces them, it's other to insult other peoples' (Blizzard's) work in order to promote your own.
When is Blizzards work insulted?
Insult - in·sult/inˈsəlt/ Speak to or treat with disrespect or scornful abuse.
iGrok only mentions in the petition that there are currently bad maps in the map pool. This is a fact of the map, not disrespect towards Blizzard. The promotion is justified; the proposed maps are much better than some of those in the current ladder.
Wasn't necessarily directed at the OP in general, simply the general attitude on these forums. If you don't think there is automatic hate for Blizzard maps (before they're even played on, no less,) then you don't read these map threads enough.
What the OP is doing is taking advantage of that irrational hatred of Blizzard maps to promote the amateur maps he wants. Positive that 95% of posters in this thread have not even played the proposed maps and are bandwagon-ing onto it.
And lol if you don't think Blizzard's work is insulted. Read the Season 3 map thread. In short: read before you talk, peace.
On June 30 2011 15:41 rancidmeat wrote: I'll sign it because they look like half decent maps overall (definitely better than some current maps).
That said, these maps are not 100% balanced.
For example in the first map, if terran spawns in top left and zerg in top right or any adjacent positions in the circular positioning, its worse than close positions metalopolis for the zerg - tanks can safely siege the natural from the low ground.
The second map seems to favor protoss in the expanding section, and all paths go along one direction, so counterattacks are difficult and death pushes will be the only way to go for any race.
Not saying they're bad maps, just that they could be improved to some degree.
Valid conserns, BUT as sanctuarium is a proberly tested map the issue with siege tanks on low ground was fixed; doodads and the mineral patches blocks large units from getting in range.
btw GSL = global starcraft 2 league and ESL = electronic sports league
on topic: well it would be nice to have new maps - I didn't play on these 2 maps so I can't talk about them. I would love though to have a petition for updates on the Blizzard ladder pool for nearly any other map currently used instaed of these 2 specific maps
From my uneducated point of view I dont like Sanctuarium. Hysteria looks fine though.
But (!) you got my vote because it sets a precedent. If we manage to get those maps in it will be more likely to get other maps in as well. I think it's better to see the vote as a "we want the ability to decide what maps are played" petition compared to a "we want those 2 specific maps" petition.
Signing the petition. But I would really hope that if its used in tournaments, it's used on a global basis.
It seems that's the problem with iCCup Testbug. A lot of Koreans don't even play it and most western players don't really practice for it until MLG. The only way I see the problem being overcome is if Blizzard puts it in their ladder pool and that's really unlikely.
But we need some new maps anyway (and not just from the Korean scene) so I'll sign it and hope for action rather than inaction.
On June 30 2011 16:46 Nyovne wrote: Reopening this pending further investigation.
I have written a large response, then you closed the thread. Then I deleted my response because I thought the thread was closed...now you reopen it. DAMN YOU JK, of course.
Anywho, my main point I wanted to make is, that I think it's crucial to get Blizz to realize that the discrepancy between maps played on ladder and maps played in tournaments is very BAD. I've always loved watching tournaments not only because of the excitement but because of seeing new strats that I can use in my own play. Now when the maps are so completely different, then I can't use any of the builds used in tournaments.
Therefore I really support petitions like this one, because the community must convince Blizz to listen to professional players and tournament hosts. Not having tournament maps on ladder is very bad for the development of sc2 in general.
Those 2 maps look brilliant, signed. But im sure this will go un-noticed to blizzard, considering their maps are garbage and haven't listened to the community. Hope this works. GL to us all!
On June 30 2011 17:49 TheSilverfox wrote: Add Dreamhack to the list of tournaments as well. They will be running more and more SC2 tournaments with Invitational and DH Winter coming up.
They need to see this as well.
And yes - I've signed it!
Excellent Idea! I'll send this to DH as well - unfortunately there is no good way to edit petitions, but rest assured that I will send it to them!
We couldn't get The Eighteenth? Haha, unfortunately the aesthetic of the map will forbid it from ever being seriously used, but that is still one awesome map.
Voted for sure. MotM is a great initiative and it's time that great maps from the community start getting used, instead of just Blizzard/GSL maps (although the GSL maps are indeed great). Seriously, even iCCup only has one map that's ever used.
Whats is actually the problem with Larger maps for low leagues ? Isn't it better to actually have a player win because he can (for that lvl) macro on 3-4-12 bases ? Then because he microed 1 base all in better or made 3 more marines with better BO and atacked ?
And at the same time, it's not like cheese and all ins don't exist on larger maps.
I have never seen this maps before. But, wow, they are really good. They are as good as GSL crevasse, and better then a couple of other gsl maps, truly impressed. They have good size, not too big, not too small. They have an interesting expansion pattern, and a good center wich leaves room to maneuver and flank. I sincerely hope these 2 maps get added to the map pool.
The petition to bring LAN into sc2 was signed by 263,074 people. I doubt a petition to change maps will help. Blizzard is againts petitions, but asking for better maps would be a better thread.
I really like Sanctuarium. I think it could be the new Tal'Darim Altar on the ladder. It needs some polishing to make it more enjoyable for the eyes, but overall I like it.
I'll sign it as I think Blizzard should be more open to user made maps.
On June 30 2011 11:34 DeepBlu2 wrote: signed but the reason they won't do it, which I disagree with, is because they believe that larger maps can be not only imbalanced but are terrible for low league players. The defense is that you can veto the maps you don't like but there are not enough vetoes sadly. If anything, you can expect the larger maps (like tal'darim) to be changed or removed. I doubt their mindset will change sadly. They do have a reasonable defense though.
A simple solution would be to allow for more vetoes.
anyway these maps seem pretty nice, at least the first one, haven't made up my mind on the second yet.
On June 30 2011 15:17 Halcyondaze wrote: Blizzard know much more than you do about how to make a RTS game and maps. They have been doing it for years. This is ridiculous, let them do what they are best at. Test the maps before you cry about it
Do I sense blind devotion here with my Jedi senses? Blizzard is not a perfect and omniscient god, you know. Blizzard's got a lot of seriously talented people, no doubt about that. But there's a whole lot of talent out there besides Blizzard, you know, and they too have the ability to make some really good maps. Think GSL, Iccup, ect. These freelance map makers are an added resource to the community and without them we would be poorer as a community and as players.
On June 30 2011 19:55 Drey wrote: The petition to bring LAN into sc2 was signed by 263,074 people. I doubt a petition to change maps will help. Blizzard is againts petitions, but asking for better maps would be a better thread.
Adding LAN also goes against profits according to most video game developers at this point in time.
That petition would cost Blizzard money in their eyes, this petition only gives paying customers what they want.
On June 30 2011 15:17 Halcyondaze wrote: Blizzard know much more than you do about how to make a RTS game and maps. They have been doing it for years. This is ridiculous, let them do what they are best at. Test the maps before you cry about it
Do I sense blind devotion here with my Jedi senses? Blizzard is not a perfect and omniscient god, you know. Blizzard's got a lot of seriously talented people, no doubt about that. But there's a whole lot of talent out there besides Blizzard, you know, and they too have the ability to make some really good maps. Think GSL, Iccup, ect.
Also, MSL and OSL have been using Korean made maps for 10+ years, and ICCup just used those maps because the Blizzard-made maps in BW were just as bad as a lot of the ladder maps in SC2.
I never heard of this maps, never saw anyone playing on this maps. This is the wrong way to publish new maps!
What gives you the right to demand organizations to use your maps in their map pool? They organize events, support players, and do everything to help sc2 growing. You say that all leagues and tournaments using bad maps in their map pool? What does make your maps better then for example the GSL maps like Terminus or Bel Shir Beach?
How is it about: Just ask them if they would try your maps in their map pool? Yes maybe you wouldn't get an answer from blizzard, but I think every other organization would take some time and analyze the map.
Also you can try to get your maps in smaller tournaments like z33k daily, ICCup, Go4sc2 etc.
I don't like the way you try to publish your maps to get more attention. Therefore i am not going to sign this.
On June 30 2011 20:52 iNViCiOUZ wrote: I never heard of this maps, never saw anyone playing on this maps. This is the wrong way to publish new maps!
What gives you the right to demand organizations to use your maps in their map pool? They organize events, support players, and do everything to help sc2 growing. You say that all leagues and tournaments using bad maps in their map pool? What does make your maps better then for example the GSL maps like Terminus or Bel Shir Beach?
How is it about: Just ask them if they would try your maps in their map pool? Yes maybe you wouldn't get an answer from blizzard, but I think every other organization would take some time and analyze the map.
Also you can try to get your maps in smaller tournaments like z33k daily, ICCup, Go4sc2 etc.
I don't like the way you try to publish your maps to get more attention. Therefore i am not going to sign this.
You may want to read the OP once more cause you got just about everything wrong with that post.
On June 30 2011 11:16 iGrok wrote: I'm not convinced these are good maps. Convince me. Well, you can watch replays or VODs with MrBitter and Chill (skip to 1:39:40). Or, you can test the maps yourself! Search for "MotM" on battlenet to find these two maps and the other three finalists!
The time stamp you gave is kinda inaccurate....it's 1:14:20 for Sanctuarium and 1:32:20 for Hysteria. I'm gonna watch it now and I'll sign if the map looks good.:p
EDIT: Not going to sign. Don't particularly like the maps.
I'm not a fan of all of these maps, but I'm watching the MrBitter MotM vods, and some of them seem pretty nice. For the record, do not put on Marshlands, that map only has 1 decent spawn position, the others are horrible. However, the 1v1 dedicated maps seem really awesome.
It's fine for the ladder to be honest, simply because of how absolutely horrible the ladder map pool is.
Leagues like NASL/GSL could consider them also, but I really wouldn't want any single/multi-day tournaments adopting them before they are infact widespread on either the ladder or other tournaments. Otherwise you just end up with another Testbug.
International, multiday tourneys like MLG, dreamhack and IEM should stay the hell away from using maps that aren't widely used internationally, simply because it leads to a more even playing field.
Also, and this is nothing but gut feeling and seeing about 1,5 games on both maps total, I have issues with how both maps offer expansions that are way too safe, leading to inevitable 'I'm gonna sit in my base and max out' games.
actually, if you really want hysteria or even sanctuarium in the blizzard pool, you'll need to make it more visually like the other maps, and call it something like them, not just "Hysteria."
edit: iNViCiOUZ, how nice of you to vent your opinion. too bad you dont have a clue... go read the mapforum on here first. iGrok is a legend, and does alot, ALOT for mappers and mapping in general. Also he has a pretty epic mustache.
This is game balance, not politics. This just sounds like a case of new maps for the sake of new maps, with everyone bandwagoning by saying they look good. I remember when people were happy to see Bel'Shir Beach, but now everyone would love to see the back of it. I also remember when everyone said Tal'Darim Altar looked amazing, but have you ever tried playing PvP on it? It's hopelessly screwed. HuK and MC had a 19 minute long one base game on there because it's just that bad for PvP.
I wouldn't mind Blizzard putting out some 2 player maps though.
While I appreciate the effort and respect your cause, Blizzard are stubborn on this. If they weren't they would have added more than just one of the GSL maps by now. It is very sad.
Signed, although I have a feeling you'd have more signatures if: a) you had put an image of the new look of Hysteria or b) you had only put Sanctuarium in the petition. Anyway, best of luck with this!
Please don't support; i've looked at hysteria. For the love of god please stop adding dumb stuff on the maps that get in the way of your vision and make the screen raise and fall because of them.
Horrible maps.
Seriously, i know the game allows you to add a thousand dumb features to the map, that doesn't mean you should. For competitive gameplay you need the opposite.
Please don't support; i've looked at hysteria. For the love of god please stop adding dumb stuff on the maps that get in the way of your vision and make the screen raise and fall because of them.
Horrible maps.
Seriously, i know the game allows you to add a thousand dumb features to the map, that doesn't mean you should. For competitive gameplay you need the opposite.
have you actually played on them or just looked at the overview?
Please don't support; i've looked at hysteria. For the love of god please stop adding dumb stuff on the maps that get in the way of your vision and make the screen raise and fall because of them.
Horrible maps.
Seriously, i know the game allows you to add a thousand dumb features to the map, that doesn't mean you should. For competitive gameplay you need the opposite.
You scream "BAD MAPS" cause of some trivial visual "problems" on one of the maps? And it says in the OP that Hysteria will get a visual overhaul anyway... this post just makes me cry...
I think those two maps are pretty solid so I'll sign your petition. Blizzard will never put these maps on ladder tho, they are to proud and love their own maps regardless of what the community says. And according to them putting maps like Sanctuarium on ladder is bad because noobs can't scout.. except putting Tal'darim on ladder is fine... it's just the biggest map one could imagine, no problem.
Anyway, great job! <3
edit: I forgot to mention that people focus too much on blizz ladder cos that won't happen anyway (like 0,01% chance). But especially for ESL and smaller EU weekly cups there is a good chance (ESL just takes a risk and decides to try new maps and then the smaller cups follow).
GSL has their own map makers and they will probably exclusively use their maps (also cause their map makers are Korean which makes it easier) and NASL or IGN will not take risks and use GSL/Blizzard maps. MLG is very open to fan suggestions if we get a certain amount of people signing this tho.
Please don't support; i've looked at hysteria. For the love of god please stop adding dumb stuff on the maps that get in the way of your vision and make the screen raise and fall because of them.
Horrible maps.
Seriously, i know the game allows you to add a thousand dumb features to the map, that doesn't mean you should. For competitive gameplay you need the opposite.
Can you add some justification to this? So far you have "All these maps are terrible because I looked at one of the maps and things get in the way of your vision and make your screen raise and fall."
I don't think these maps are the best possible map pool, but I certainly think a lot of them are great. I would never call them bad maps or horrible maps.
It's time that some TL maps get chosen to play in tourny or even the ladder, if you are a map maker you got to sign this and even everyone should sign it.
If Blizzard would accept using these maps on the ladder I wouldn't be able to explain how awesome it would be. I play Sanctuarium all the time against my friends. I am absolutely in love with it :D
Been following MotM since the beginning (with that terrible, terrible submission of mine), and I never thought it would get enough publicity to take off. I really hope I am wrong.
Well im all for the ladder including it but I think tournaments should use whatever maps they please. Which will most of the time be the best maps anyway.
On July 01 2011 05:47 Yaotzin wrote: How can people like maps like Hysteria that are begging for a 3base 200/200 turtle fest :/
I disagree. It actually looks quite difficult to defend from 3 bases because of the opponent's ability to pressure both the third and natural simultaneously while dividing the defender's forces. This looks to me like a map where both players, atleast in cross positions, have a huge incentive to take more than 3 bases, mostly because the 4th and 5th expansions don't draw you gradually closer to your opponent, as is the case in most Blizzard maps.
Please don´t theorycraft about Hysteria from a glance at the overview image.
The map was chosen from a pool of 100+ and won because it proved itself in 2 awesome tournaments featuring pros like dde, Ddoro, Cruncher, Spanishiwa to name a few. Go watch the VODs and replays.
Please don't support; i've looked at hysteria. For the love of god please stop adding dumb stuff on the maps that get in the way of your vision and make the screen raise and fall because of them.
Horrible maps.
Seriously, i know the game allows you to add a thousand dumb features to the map, that doesn't mean you should. For competitive gameplay you need the opposite.
Can you add some justification to this? So far you have "All these maps are terrible because I looked at one of the maps and things get in the way of your vision and make your screen raise and fall."
I don't think these maps are the best possible map pool, but I certainly think a lot of them are great. I would never call them bad maps or horrible maps.
Big caveat: I've only watched a couple of replays and a few of the casted games.
That said, hysteria has a single choke covering 3 bases. Granted, the choke has multiple entrances, but the running distance between them is huge. I'd say that pretty much ruins the map when it comes to ZvP, but I play neither, so I'll reserve judgement there.
On to sanctuarium, which I actually played a couple of games on. I find it to be a poor map for TvZ. You can pretty much straight up throw any aggressive opener you were considering out of the window. The choke is too small for effective hellion play, and spines are crazy powerful against any early marine play, again due to the crazy small choke. The map pretty much forces a 1 rax FE into a 2 base tank timing, which seems to be crazy strong as long as you aren't on cross position. Loads of chokes, loads of high grounds and you're pretty much at the edge of the Z's base in 2-3 hops. Past a 2-base, mutas get very strong due to the fact that you have 3 mineral lines pretty much hugging eachother, while there's relatively long ground paths inbetween
That said: I accept that certain playstyles are stronger on certain maps, but I think that maps that pretty much force a build out of a player go too far. These maps are definately better than some of the current maps in the map pool, especially slag pits and DQ are abominations, but both these maps could be better if they would encourage more variable strategies then the same thing over and over again.
It would be interesting to see a tournament try them, like the NASL for example (typhon peaks, really?), but so far I'm not convinced these maps would offer more than the GSL mappool. I'd welcome these 2 replacing DQ and slag tho, I mean, worst case is that they'll be my new vetoes ;p.
On July 01 2011 05:47 Yaotzin wrote: How can people like maps like Hysteria that are begging for a 3base 200/200 turtle fest :/
I disagree. It actually looks quite difficult to defend from 3 bases because of the opponent's ability to pressure both the third and natural simultaneously while dividing the defender's forces. This looks to me like a map where both players, atleast in cross positions, have a huge incentive to take more than 3 bases, mostly because the 4th and 5th expansions don't draw you gradually closer to your opponent, as is the case in most Blizzard maps.
From a Protoss perspective (since I play that)
PvZ. FE to natural. Wall choke to natural, then take 3rd. Defend either a ramp (forcefields booya) or a simcity with cannons. Easy as pie. No reason to do anything at all until I've saturated 3 bases.
PvT. Defend area a little north of natural. I have 3 decent chokes to forcefield here. Not ideal, but pretty good. Third is then trivial to take.
I see no reason for Terran or Zerg to do anything but a turtle into 3base style, either. Bases are nice and close for Zerg, and a siege tank wall protects all 3 for Terran.
While the layout on both is fine i still hate the lightning used on Sanctuarium. It just feels wrong ingame and completly throws me of everytime. Signed anyway because still - Blizz mappool is just a pain.
On July 01 2011 05:47 Yaotzin wrote: How can people like maps like Hysteria that are begging for a 3base 200/200 turtle fest :/
I disagree. It actually looks quite difficult to defend from 3 bases because of the opponent's ability to pressure both the third and natural simultaneously while dividing the defender's forces. This looks to me like a map where both players, atleast in cross positions, have a huge incentive to take more than 3 bases, mostly because the 4th and 5th expansions don't draw you gradually closer to your opponent, as is the case in most Blizzard maps.
From a Protoss perspective (since I play that)
PvZ. FE to natural. Wall choke to natural, then take 3rd. Defend either a ramp (forcefields booya) or a simcity with cannons. Easy as pie. No reason to do anything at all until I've saturated 3 bases.
PvT. Defend area a little north of natural. I have 3 decent chokes to forcefield here. Not ideal, but pretty good. Third is then trivial to take.
I see no reason for Terran or Zerg to do anything but a turtle into 3base style, either. Bases are nice and close for Zerg, and a siege tank wall protects all 3 for Terran.
Sure 3 bases may be easy to defend against zerg, but 4-5 bases can be easy to take as zerg. Look at the way the fourth sets itself up, a different choke but close by. It forces you to posture differently but is easily accessed. Just like turtling on any other map, if your opponent shows no intention of expanding or pressuring then expand yourself.
On July 01 2011 05:47 Yaotzin wrote: How can people like maps like Hysteria that are begging for a 3base 200/200 turtle fest :/
I disagree. It actually looks quite difficult to defend from 3 bases because of the opponent's ability to pressure both the third and natural simultaneously while dividing the defender's forces. This looks to me like a map where both players, atleast in cross positions, have a huge incentive to take more than 3 bases, mostly because the 4th and 5th expansions don't draw you gradually closer to your opponent, as is the case in most Blizzard maps.
From a Protoss perspective (since I play that)
PvZ. FE to natural. Wall choke to natural, then take 3rd. Defend either a ramp (forcefields booya) or a simcity with cannons. Easy as pie. No reason to do anything at all until I've saturated 3 bases.
PvT. Defend area a little north of natural. I have 3 decent chokes to forcefield here. Not ideal, but pretty good. Third is then trivial to take.
I see no reason for Terran or Zerg to do anything but a turtle into 3base style, either. Bases are nice and close for Zerg, and a siege tank wall protects all 3 for Terran.
You can't just wall off your natural because theres a backdoor into it, which means you need to either sacrifice a lot of economy to wall off both places or have a decent-sized army to defend it.
Watch Game 1 of DdoRo vs PhoeNix in the replay pack provided (Round 3 Game 1).
On July 01 2011 05:47 Yaotzin wrote: How can people like maps like Hysteria that are begging for a 3base 200/200 turtle fest :/
I disagree. It actually looks quite difficult to defend from 3 bases because of the opponent's ability to pressure both the third and natural simultaneously while dividing the defender's forces. This looks to me like a map where both players, atleast in cross positions, have a huge incentive to take more than 3 bases, mostly because the 4th and 5th expansions don't draw you gradually closer to your opponent, as is the case in most Blizzard maps.
From a Protoss perspective (since I play that)
PvZ. FE to natural. Wall choke to natural, then take 3rd. Defend either a ramp (forcefields booya) or a simcity with cannons. Easy as pie. No reason to do anything at all until I've saturated 3 bases.
PvT. Defend area a little north of natural. I have 3 decent chokes to forcefield here. Not ideal, but pretty good. Third is then trivial to take.
I see no reason for Terran or Zerg to do anything but a turtle into 3base style, either. Bases are nice and close for Zerg, and a siege tank wall protects all 3 for Terran.
You can't just wall off your natural because theres a backdoor into it, which means you need to either sacrifice a lot of economy to wall off both places or have a decent-sized army to defend it.
Watch Game 1 of DdoRo vs PhoeNix in the replay pack provided (Round 3 Game 1).
I'm Protoss yo, I don't need a big army to defend a ramp :p A few sentries + a cannon at my wall and I'm golden on that map.
Dunno why I watched that game. Ling runbys are pretty good against people who fail wall I guess?
On July 01 2011 05:47 Yaotzin wrote: How can people like maps like Hysteria that are begging for a 3base 200/200 turtle fest :/
I disagree. It actually looks quite difficult to defend from 3 bases because of the opponent's ability to pressure both the third and natural simultaneously while dividing the defender's forces. This looks to me like a map where both players, atleast in cross positions, have a huge incentive to take more than 3 bases, mostly because the 4th and 5th expansions don't draw you gradually closer to your opponent, as is the case in most Blizzard maps.
From a Protoss perspective (since I play that)
PvZ. FE to natural. Wall choke to natural, then take 3rd. Defend either a ramp (forcefields booya) or a simcity with cannons. Easy as pie. No reason to do anything at all until I've saturated 3 bases.
PvT. Defend area a little north of natural. I have 3 decent chokes to forcefield here. Not ideal, but pretty good. Third is then trivial to take.
I see no reason for Terran or Zerg to do anything but a turtle into 3base style, either. Bases are nice and close for Zerg, and a siege tank wall protects all 3 for Terran.
You can't just wall off your natural because theres a backdoor into it, which means you need to either sacrifice a lot of economy to wall off both places or have a decent-sized army to defend it.
Watch Game 1 of DdoRo vs PhoeNix in the replay pack provided (Round 3 Game 1).
I'm Protoss yo, I don't need a big army to defend a ramp :p A few sentries + a cannon at my wall and I'm golden on that map.
Dunno why I watched that game. Ling runbys are pretty good against people who fail wall I guess?
Yeah I heard a few sentries + a cannon are pretty strong vs 2 base Roach
On July 01 2011 08:10 dezi wrote: While the layout on both is fine i still hate the lightning used on Sanctuarium. It just feels wrong ingame and completly throws me of everytime. Signed anyway because still - Blizz mappool is just a pain.
Glad someone else thinks the same. Lighting on that map really has to be fixed, so ugly!
Great that the community seems to take to the petition, but I hope iGrok and the other organisers are in contact with the TL administration to bring this to Blizzard's attention and present the case (with the number of signed petitions being one happy argument).
The big thing to do is to get these maps out there and played. The MotM (excellent tournament btw) is a good start, but without being visible continuously and being adopted by an established league/tournament, no petition will ever do anything.
We do have Go4SC2 admins on the site, we do have the CraftCup guys here, and of course the TLOpen. Get those maps out there.
On July 01 2011 19:04 Bobster wrote: Great that the community seems to take to the petition, but I hope iGrok and the other organisers are in contact with the TL administration to bring this to Blizzard's attention and present the case (with the number of signed petitions being one happy argument).
The big thing to do is to get these maps out there and played. The MotM (excellent tournament btw) is a good start, but without being visible continuously and being adopted by an established league/tournament, no petition will ever do anything.
We do have Go4SC2 admins on the site, we do have the CraftCup guys here, and of course the TLOpen. Get those maps out there.
This....x 100
Seriously...you need to get these maps exposed in competitions...a petition only helps if the maps have been given exposure...
On July 01 2011 19:04 Bobster wrote: Great that the community seems to take to the petition, but I hope iGrok and the other organisers are in contact with the TL administration to bring this to Blizzard's attention and present the case (with the number of signed petitions being one happy argument).
The big thing to do is to get these maps out there and played. The MotM (excellent tournament btw) is a good start, but without being visible continuously and being adopted by an established league/tournament, no petition will ever do anything.
We do have Go4SC2 admins on the site, we do have the CraftCup guys here, and of course the TLOpen. Get those maps out there.
Do you really think TL is open for something like this? I think they are rather conservative and won't take any risks or any responsibility for maps and thus they will exclusively do whatever Korea (GSL) does and use their maps...
On July 01 2011 05:47 Yaotzin wrote: How can people like maps like Hysteria that are begging for a 3base 200/200 turtle fest :/
Maybe the players want a map that makes them do something different in their build. On Hysteria, Terran mech builds work better than on most other maps, and it is very easy to be aggressive on the map as well. Destroying the rocks decrease rush time and the natural has an unblocked backdoor. I'm not sure if I can really think of any other map that would change gameplay as much as Hysteria.
On July 03 2011 04:52 DashedHopes wrote: I kind of hate these maps.. I think they are completely zerg favored.. I will sign it just because i hate the maps right now even more
Would be helpful if you elaborate on why they're Zerg favored. I think they're just more macro-heavy than current Blizzard maps. A bit like TalDarim Altar.
I feel that the votes have stagnated a bit .. but does it matter really if we hit 10k or not.. what matters is that we can present the maps to Blizzard and major tournaments and tell them the community backs them up.
I dont understand why there are so few votes when teamliquid.net has too many active users. Right now there are more users logged in than signed in that petition...strange.
Hysteria is too big and too complicated to appear on battle.net. Can you see people playing 2-3 times a week playing on that? Not voting for unrealistic things.
Signed, though I doubt it'll work. I don't really understand why they don't just put in 3-4 "rush" maps for bad players and 3-4 makro maps for good players, makes everyone happy. Plus it's not like there aren't ton of good community maps out there they could use.
Please sign this petition. These are Team Liquid's mapmakers here - Antares777 and funcmode worked damn hard on these maps because of their love for SC2 - please show them even more support!
On July 03 2011 22:08 freakhill wrote: Hysteria is too big and too complicated to appear on battle.net. Can you see people playing 2-3 times a week playing on that? Not voting for unrealistic things.
This is not only about ladder... in fact, ladder is very unrealistic anyway and I guess they know that.
This is definitely what we need in the community, blizzard being less focused on their own maps and giving maps like these a try. Both look well thought out also
I support the attempt, but I do want to point out that Blizzard has a policy in place that essentially states that they do not pay any attention at all to petitions.
On July 06 2011 05:26 Whitewing wrote: I support the attempt, but I do want to point out that Blizzard has a policy in place that essentially states that they do not pay any attention at all to petitions.
This isn't just to Blizzard - but even if that is their policy, they can't really ignore a petition with thousands of signatures!
That site doesn´t accept 3 numbers as a zip code... don´t know what to call it but thats kind of unfair for Iceland since our zip codes are all 3 numbers mine being 108 so i had to write 4 numbers -_- You racist rofl D:
On June 30 2011 11:29 AndAgain wrote: Browder has said that they don't want ladder maps to be too macroish to scare away low level players. I wouldn't have my hopes up.
No, they said they want to have a well rounded ladder map pool. Given enough vetos you can play whatever maps you want. You get 3 vetoes and there are 3 maps of each size. Veto all the small ones and you're set for macro-oriented games.
It should be noted that Tal'darim is among 3 of the most vetoed maps on the ladder. Crota/Blizshouter noted this might be more because Terran players feel uncomfortable on this map. I guess it feels too big to execute the usual timing rushes. ^^
signed, the ladder maps we have now (dq, backwater gulch, slag pits, scrap station) are just terrible compared to gsl maps (belshir beach, dual sight, terminus, and crevasse)
On July 06 2011 05:26 Whitewing wrote: I support the attempt, but I do want to point out that Blizzard has a policy in place that essentially states that they do not pay any attention at all to petitions.
This isn't just to Blizzard - but even if that is their policy, they can't really ignore a petition with thousands of signatures!
They did with World of Warcraft, and as much as I wish for your success here (I signed the petition also), I unfortunately doubt they will take this seriously or give it weight.
Their answer to petitions is that "Petitions represent skewed data from the vocal minority, we trust our own data more." (paraphrasing)
I finished the new version of Hysteria! Also, if you have not signed the petition yet, please do! There's been a lot of aesthetic changes, so I'm just going to list the gameplay ones:
-Fifth expansion is now a gold. This should influence people to actually get a fifth expansion up and may even influence unusual expansion patterns, which should increase spectator value. -Fifth expansion can now no longer be sieged from the adjacent main. -The mineral line of the main has been moved slightly to make the space less awkward and allow for more building room. -The cliff outside of the natural in the middle is pathable and buildable. The other cliff is still unpathable and is marked by the glowing lines and other doodads.
Thank goodness we're petitioning for good maps. That would be awful if we just petitioned for maps and blizzard got confused and made bad maps instead thinking that's what we wanted.
On July 25 2011 08:37 ChineseWife wrote: how can you petition for this? its not like its within any of our rights
Its not within our rights to ask for a better experience playing a game we bought?
On July 25 2011 08:38 Tewks44 wrote: Thank goodness we're petitioning for good maps. That would be awful if we just petitioned for maps and blizzard got confused and made bad maps instead thinking that's what we wanted.
You joke, I know, but to be blunt such a scenario would not surprise me in the least.
On July 25 2011 08:37 ChineseWife wrote: how can you petition for this? its not like its within any of our rights
It's not within our rights to use force to change the maps (i.e. through hacking, kidnapping Dustin Browder's family, etc.) against Blizzards will but that is not what the petition is for. How is it not within any of our rights to ask Blizzard to provide us a good service?
EPT
![[image loading]](http://img801.imageshack.us/img801/8977/blizzsanctuary.png)
Adding rocks and gold...![[image loading]](http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/1156/blizzhysteria.png)
![[image loading]](http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-rolleyes008.gif)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/X7VQU.jpg)
