On May 10 2012 08:01 r.Evo wrote: Read: The acupuncture was MORE effective than the conventional therapy. Which, by definition, can't be due to a placebo effect. Basically what the study says is "What we think of as real and fake accunpcture worked, we don't know why, but it did. Since however both worked better than the conventional therapy we'll introduce it as official treatment."
Epic science fail. This is your argument:
1. Acupuncture is based on the principle that the body is composed of meridians through which qi flows, and putting needles into meridians can relieve pain. 2. Sticking needles into random places relieves pain. 3. ???? 4. That means acunpuncture is correct!
That's a completely illogical conclusion. Just because sticking needles into random places relieves pain doesn't mean that acupuncture was right. It just means that acupuncture figured out that needles relieves pain, but made up wrong reasons to explain it. Even a broken clock is right twice a day. The studies make it clear that acupuncture is pseudoscience. Again, just because something works does not mean that your explanation is correct. Sticking needles into your skin works, but not for any of the reasons proposed by acupuncture.
On May 10 2012 08:01 r.Evo wrote: Were there ever solid studies as to why or even IF what NLP calls "phobia cures" work? No. When it comes to that psychology is still stuck with either graduated behavioural therapy or "flooding", the solutions offered by NLP aren't even considered for various reasons.
Wikipedia wrote: Reviews of empirical research on NLP indicate that NLP contains numerous factual errors,[12][14] and has failed to produce reliable results for the claims for effectiveness made by NLP’s originators and proponents.[5][15] According to Devilly,[16] NLP is no longer as prevalent as it was in the 1970s and 1980s. Criticisms go beyond the lack of empirical evidence for effectiveness; critics say that NLP exhibits pseudoscientific characteristics,[16] title,[3] concepts and terminology.[6][17] NLP is used as an example of pseudoscience for facilitating the teaching of scientific literacy at the professional and university level.[7][18][19] NLP also appears on peer reviewed expert-consensus based lists of discredited interventions.[5] In research designed to identify the "quack factor" in modern mental health practice, Norcross et al. (2006) [17] list NLP as possibly or probably discredited, and in papers reviewing discredited interventions for substance and alcohol abuse, Norcross et al. (2010)[20] list NLP in the top ten most discredited, and Glasner-Edwards and Rawson (2010) list NLP as "certainly discredited".
On May 10 2012 08:16 squattincassanova wrote: Ignore everything about NLP. Its one of the last things you want to learn.
Taking an improv comedy class or a dance class is going to do 1000x more for your game than NLP. The fact r.EVO is writing PAGES on NLP is more proof of his keyboard jockeyness. Its easy to be sitting in front of a computer spending 30 minutes to formulate what theoretically works and what doesn't. But throw him in front of a group of girls in a real set, and his NLP theorycraft knowledge goes out the window.
Why so hostile because I'm able to explain concepts and you aren't? I enjoy knowing what my shit is about. I also enjoy talking in front of 20-50 people and helping them improve their lives. That's where NLP shines the most for me. Doesn't change the fact that the concepts I'm talking about apply in pickup just the same. You have fucking 2500 posts on a bodybuilding forum, 1000 on a pickupforum and another 600 over here in this very thread. Why are you accusing me of sitting in front of a computer and talking about subjects where I can actually share knowledge and experience?
PS: I made the exact same "NLP has no point in pickup for beginners"-statement like a page ago. Glad you agree with me. >_>
On May 10 2012 08:01 r.Evo wrote: Read: The acupuncture was MORE effective than the conventional therapy. Which, by definition, can't be due to a placebo effect. Basically what the study says is "What we think of as real and fake accunpcture worked, we don't know why, but it did. Since however both worked better than the conventional therapy we'll introduce it as official treatment."
Epic science fail. This is your argument:
1. Acupuncture is based on the principle that the body is composed of meridians through which qi flows, and putting needles into meridians can relieve pain. 2. Sticking needles into random places relieves pain. 3. ???? 4. That means acunpuncture is correct!
That's a completely illogical conclusion. Just because sticking needles into random places relieves pain doesn't mean that acupuncture was right. It just means that acupuncture figured out that needles relieves pain, but made up wrong reasons to explain it. Even a broken clock is right twice a day. The studies make it clear that acupuncture is pseudoscience. Again, just because something works does not mean that your explanation is correct. Sticking needles into your skin works, but not for any of the reasons proposed by acupuncture.
On May 10 2012 08:01 r.Evo wrote: Were there ever solid studies as to why or even IF what NLP calls "phobia cures" work? No. When it comes to that psychology is still stuck with either graduated behavioural therapy or "flooding", the solutions offered by NLP aren't even considered for various reasons.
Wikipedia wrote: Reviews of empirical research on NLP indicate that NLP contains numerous factual errors,[12][14] and has failed to produce reliable results for the claims for effectiveness made by NLP’s originators and proponents.[5][15] According to Devilly,[16] NLP is no longer as prevalent as it was in the 1970s and 1980s. Criticisms go beyond the lack of empirical evidence for effectiveness; critics say that NLP exhibits pseudoscientific characteristics,[16] title,[3] concepts and terminology.[6][17] NLP is used as an example of pseudoscience for facilitating the teaching of scientific literacy at the professional and university level.[7][18][19] NLP also appears on peer reviewed expert-consensus based lists of discredited interventions.[5] In research designed to identify the "quack factor" in modern mental health practice, Norcross et al. (2006) [17] list NLP as possibly or probably discredited, and in papers reviewing discredited interventions for substance and alcohol abuse, Norcross et al. (2010)[20] list NLP in the top ten most discredited, and Glasner-Edwards and Rawson (2010) list NLP as "certainly discredited".
Well. Quite honestly, if the result of an epic science fail conclusion from one of the biggest studies done on acupuncture results in more people being helped for less cost.. I think epic science fail conclusions are a good thing.
As for NLP, I am completely aware of it's weaknesses as a model and as a system. What you're saying is "some parts of it are faulty" which means "the entire system is bullshit and has no truths to it" (in fact, NONE of the aspects which are criticized in that article where among those I listed earlier. Quite frankly, I agree with most of that wiki article. Stuff like the "eye movement cues" or "sensory predicates in language use" are things that are taught in NLP nowadays with comments like "that's what we used to do for xy BUT it has proven to be ineffective here there and there - we don't recommend using it as a basis anymore").
What I'm doing is cherry picking the stuff that works (actually the entire list was copycatted from Alexa Mohls book which incidently is came out in 2006 and doesn't agree with most of the 80s stuff) and using that for my personal and others benefit.
The world isn't black and white. What you're doing is equivalent to saying "Doctors once said all people with xy will die within 5 years. Since they managed to make that statement untrue all of medicine is bullshit, they don't even know what they're saying!"
ESPECIALLY fields like medicine or psychology work like "We don't really know exactly what we're doing here, but we're going to try this now, we assume it will have some kind of positive effect" in a lot of cases. Why? Because you can't manipulate a complex system via linear inputs and can expect to get linear results.
Show proof that you coach people, aka show your website, the number of clients you have, and how much you get paid off coaching. The matter of fact is PU is a hard industry for a coach to even make anything and you haven't established anymore than a keyboard jockey. Why would anyone pick you over RSD or DJ Fuji or Sinn?
I understand the concepts perfectly. We all read the material. You really think its that hard to go on bit torrent and download gigs of PU material and sit at home and mental masturbate? Bro, I been a keyboard jockey for 4 years before I finally went out (hey, I'll admit it). I read if not more than you. I just chose not to spend hours regurgitating stuff written by other people. Your stuff is nothing more than theory because you never stepped outside into the real world and applied any of this. Sure on paper, some newbie is going to read you stuff and it sounds pretty cool, but really we both know, you can't cold approach worth didly squat. Which is why you have no in field videos or audios.
Part of the reason why I never went hard was because the last 4 years after I got into pickup, I was on and off with a girlfriend. When you have a gf and its easy to get laid from the same girl, you have no motivation to cold approach. Thats why I know that you don't cold approach. Its simple. You have a gf. Where is the motivation to approach? Thats why I know you are BS when it come PU because you don't have any field experience.
Dont get me wrong. I dont care if there are newbs on this thread and I an certainly not that best PU guy there out. Ill admit to that. But what annoys me is reading page after page of keyboard jockey material.
On May 10 2012 09:06 r.Evo wrote: Well. Quite honestly, if the result of an epic science fail conclusion from one of the biggest studies done on acupuncture results in more people being helped for less cost.. I think epic science fail conclusions are a good thing.
My usage of "epic science fail" was referring to your conclusion, not the results of the study.
The fact that the study revealed the benefits of sticking needles in your skin while debunking the pseudoscience behind acupuncture, on the other hand, is a good thing.
On May 10 2012 09:06 r.Evo wrote: The world isn't black and white. What you're doing is equivalent to saying "Doctors once said all people with xy will die within 5 years. Since they managed to make that statement untrue all of medicine is bullshit, they don't even know what they're saying!"
That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that most of NLP is bullshit, not just an isolated concept. A better analogy would be:
Pseudoscientst claims that malaria is caused by evil spirits, and that evil spirits are allergic to cinchona. Pseudoscientist treats malaria victim with cinchona and they get better. Pseudoscientist declares that their science is real. Medical doctor claims that malaria is caused by protozoa, and determines that cinchona contains quinine, a compound that interferes with the reproduction of those protozoa. Medical doctor tests out pseudoscientst's theories, and finds that the "evil spirits" explanation doesn't hold up in most cases.
Which explanation is bullshit? One of them is simpler for an uneducated person to understand, sure, but that doesn't mean it's the correct explanation. And just because the pseudoscientist sometimes gets things right, doesn't mean there's any point to studying how to combat evil spirits. Obviously, NLP is the pseudoscience here.
Come on Squat, show us some pics of you and some white girls, yeah? Isn't gaming and pick-up artistry about helping the sexually oppressed and frustrated Asianz represent, show us what you got player!
On May 10 2012 11:38 Sakata Gintoki wrote: Come on Squat, show us some pics of you and some white girls, yeah? Isn't gaming and pick-up artistry about helping the sexually oppressed and frustrated Asianz represent, show us what you got player!
On May 10 2012 11:38 Sakata Gintoki wrote: Come on Squat, show us some pics of you and some white girls, yeah? Isn't gaming and pick-up artistry about helping the sexually oppressed and frustrated Asianz represent, show us what you got player!
knock yourself out
Sweet! Did you get to bang any of those ones? The brunette with the yellow T-shirt is hot.
On May 10 2012 09:16 squattincassanova wrote: Show proof that you coach people, aka show your website, the number of clients you have, and how much you get paid off coaching. The matter of fact is PU is a hard industry for a coach to even make anything and you haven't established anymore than a keyboard jockey. Why would anyone pick you over RSD or DJ Fuji or Sinn?
I understand the concepts perfectly. We all read the material. You really think its that hard to go on bit torrent and download gigs of PU material and sit at home and mental masturbate? Bro, I been a keyboard jockey for 4 years before I finally went out (hey, I'll admit it). I read if not more than you. I just chose not to spend hours regurgitating stuff written by other people. Your stuff is nothing more than theory because you never stepped outside into the real world and applied any of this. Sure on paper, some newbie is going to read you stuff and it sounds pretty cool, but really we both know, you can't cold approach worth didly squat. Which is why you have no in field videos or audios.
Part of the reason why I never went hard was because the last 4 years after I got into pickup, I was on and off with a girlfriend. When you have a gf and its easy to get laid from the same girl, you have no motivation to cold approach. Thats why I know that you don't cold approach. Its simple. You have a gf. Where is the motivation to approach? Thats why I know you are BS when it come PU because you don't have any field experience.
Dont get me wrong. I dont care if there are newbs on this thread and I an certainly not that best PU guy there out. Ill admit to that. But what annoys me is reading page after page of keyboard jockey material.
#1. I am no PUA coach. It happens do be something I do when people ask me about it specifically and I'll show them the ropes, but I usually refer people to "real" PUA coaches. In fact, I don't even want to be related to the pickup industry because I doubt it would help my business. When it comes to that stuff I would never talk "PUA" lingo in front of a client. #2. As I told you about a billion times the period where I went around and fucked whoever I could was about 2-4 years ago. Before that I had about 2 years where I just did stuff on and off on the side but that's it. #3. Since the about 1.5 years I'm in a relationship. My motivation to approach? I enjoy having sex with other girls and I enjoy having threesomes with my gf together.
What annoys me is reading page after page of someone who abuses this community to polish his ego without providing real content. That's why I usually point out the bullshit in your stories. Sorry that it's so much. Sadly I don't have the time for all of it.
Your last cool story went like this: Squattin: LOL LOOK AT ME THATS HOW I DATE HB11!! Thread: lol no way she's not hot at all, HB6 at best. Squat: LOOK PICTURE SHE'S HOT. PS: Even if she's not hot having her in bed is more awesome than thinking of girls like you jockeys hahahahaah!!!11 Evo: That ass in the video never belongs to the girl in the picture. Squat: LOL OKAY THAT PIC WAS FROM LAST SUMMER WHERE SHE LOOKED HOT. NOW SHE'S FAT OKAY? KEYBOARDJOCKEY FOR POINTING THAT OUT BTW LOLOLOL!
.......................and you question someone elses credibility? -.-
On May 10 2012 09:06 r.Evo wrote: Well. Quite honestly, if the result of an epic science fail conclusion from one of the biggest studies done on acupuncture results in more people being helped for less cost.. I think epic science fail conclusions are a good thing.
My usage of "epic science fail" was referring to your conclusion, not the results of the study.
The fact that the study revealed the benefits of sticking needles in your skin while debunking the pseudoscience behind acupuncture, on the other hand, is a good thing.
On May 10 2012 09:06 r.Evo wrote: The world isn't black and white. What you're doing is equivalent to saying "Doctors once said all people with xy will die within 5 years. Since they managed to make that statement untrue all of medicine is bullshit, they don't even know what they're saying!"
That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that most of NLP is bullshit, not just an isolated concept. A better analogy would be:
Pseudoscientst claims that malaria is caused by evil spirits, and that evil spirits are allergic to cinchona. Pseudoscientist treats malaria victim with cinchona and they get better. Pseudoscientist declares that their science is real. Medical doctor claims that malaria is caused by protozoa, and determines that cinchona contains quinine, a compound that interferes with the reproduction of those protozoa. Medical doctor tests out pseudoscientst's theories, and finds that the "evil spirits" explanation doesn't hold up in most cases.
Which explanation is bullshit? One of them is simpler for an uneducated person to understand, sure, but that doesn't mean it's the correct explanation. And just because the pseudoscientist sometimes gets things right, doesn't mean there's any point to studying how to combat evil spirits. Obviously, NLP is the pseudoscience here.
I get your point and I agree with it, my problem is just that you seem ignorant about what fits your evil spirit metaphor and what is the stuff where "science" can simply not come up with better solutions. I'm not even talking about the "weird" stuff in NLP so far like things where your coach/teacher will actually tell you what he's about to tell you will be complete bullshit but help you understand your situation better make things clearer for you.
That for example is similar to how Atomic Theory gets explained in school. At one point you will learn that it's similar to our universe with electrons orbitting a big star made out of protons/neutrons. Is it bullshit? Yes. Is it enough to teach the concepts you want to teach for that specific level? Yes. Simplified or wrong models aren't neccessarily bad, it depends on what you want to achieve.
But, yeah. In all honesty, shoot me examples of how "anchoring" or "reframing" (maybe even a basic reframing technique such as the six-step) has better models for theory and practice in "real psychology" and I'm all ear. I would actually LIKE to hear things which are just as easy/easier to use and explain while getting the same/more effect in the same/shorter amount of time while also being just as close/closer to reality.
Like, western science is BUILT upon the fact that you use a model and then use it until you find a better one. There's no point bashing certain models/concepts without providing better solutions.
PS: Just to point out the irony, you do know that you're arguing in a PUA thread about what is pseudoscience and what not? The entire pickup scene is built upon pseudoscience with no real data. Does that instantly mean that all of its teachings are bullshit if you want to become better with women? No.
On May 10 2012 07:11 Spiffeh wrote: This thread just gets weirder and weirder. It's no wonder why people think PUA's are creepy.
If you check every once in a while, you'll find a gem or two. Like the article in The Rawness (the blog) about the Reader Letters.
Edit: P.S. yeah this thread is really weird, but come on what did you expect from a thread about PUA?
I loved that article with the Rawness and i pretty much have read everything in his archive. So i like to come here for the entertainment factor and the odd gem.
On May 10 2012 16:21 FractalsOnFire wrote: I loved that article with the Rawness and i pretty much have read everything in his archive. So i like to come here for the entertainment factor and the odd gem.
Maybe you'd be interested in this http://postmasculine.com/, it's a blog by an ex PUA who has evolved and come up with more realistic ideas on dating for men. There are some good older blog posts on there.
Sunprince, I totally get where you're coming from with the pseudoscience thing. You read this stuff and a lot of it impresses as totally unfounded. If you are an academic scientist or even just have an interest in exact sciences it's difficult to respect some of these newer "sicences". There was no real groundwork, no guy in a lab coat, just some guy and his typewriter. I often feel the same way about macro economics even, it's wholly descriptive. At best it's gathering data and retrospective analysing. In the medical professional world psychology of a whole is sometimes not taken too seriously.
However, you have to respect something that in practice shows a positive effect. And acupuncture can have exactly that. Paracetamol/acetaminophen works, there's no conclusive understanding as to how and why it works, but it'll always be my first choice of pain medication. When you practice an academic science in the real world such as medicine you soon learn that stuff sometimes just doesn't work out like it's supposed to. whatever the reason, stuff that was supposed to be definate becomes very likely and very likely becomes "probable". Therefore, personally I like to refrain from wielding the academic sledgehemmer and putting down ideas and theories that the scientifist in me can't respect. As long as they don't claim to walk on water and encroach on my profession, they're offering a service as far as I'm concerned. Of course when it comes to laws on what health insurance should cover etc it all becomes a nightmare to deal and I don't envy the people who have to ultimately make these decisions.
If Evo can make a living out of using NLP to coach people it's probably helping someone otherwise people wouldn't keep coming back and ultimately paying him. I tend to tuck tail and run at social gatherings when there's a psychologist around, just the way they talk...and no offence, Evo, but you do seem to have the ramble gene too (not literally). It's good you know your stuff though.
On May 10 2012 16:21 FractalsOnFire wrote: I loved that article with the Rawness and i pretty much have read everything in his archive. So i like to come here for the entertainment factor and the odd gem.
Maybe you'd be interested in this http://postmasculine.com/, it's a blog by an ex PUA who has evolved and come up with more realistic ideas on dating for men. There are some good older blog posts on there.
On May 10 2012 14:12 squattincassanova wrote: Made out with half. SNLed the blonde next to my cop outfit.
The one with the wedding band (left ring finger)? ... true playah!
Yeah, I'm going to Hell.....
Funny thing was, I didn't even realize it till 30 minutes later after we were making out. I was shocked when I found out but she was giving way too much IOIs. I just kept going I guess. She kept complaining how her husband is never there and is over seas. If it wasn't for me, it would have been some other guy. I have no faith in women anymore. So many cheat.
On May 10 2012 09:06 r.Evo wrote: PS: Just to point out the irony, you do know that you're arguing in a PUA thread about what is pseudoscience and what not? The entire pickup scene is built upon pseudoscience with no real data. Does that instantly mean that all of its teachings are bullshit if you want to become better with women? No.
There's a world of difference between experimenting with practical applications of legit science, and experimenting with practical applications with pseudoscience that was debunked decades ago.
To go back to the acupuncture example, serious athletes try to apply an understanding of exercise biology to improve their performance. Quack athletes try to apply an understanding of acupuncture, qi, or other bizarre pseudoscience to imrpove their performance. The former is a scientific approach and the other is not.
Check out The Skeptic's Dictionary sometime. It has articles on NLP, acupuncture, and other bullshit, and reading it might help you develop some critical analysis skills when it comes to science.
On May 10 2012 14:12 squattincassanova wrote: Made out with half. SNLed the blonde next to my cop outfit.
The one with the wedding band (left ring finger)? ... true playah!
Yeah, I'm going to Hell.....
Funny thing was, I didn't even realize it till 30 minutes later after we were making out. I was shocked when I found out but she was giving way too much IOIs. I just kept going I guess. She kept complaining how her husband is never there and is over seas. If it wasn't for me, it would have been some other guy. I have no faith in women anymore. So many cheat.
Except the key part is her husband is never there. If he was around and he kept her happy, she probably wouldn't have slept with you
On May 11 2012 11:01 FractalsOnFire wrote: Except the key part is her husband is never there. If he was around and he kept her happy, she probably wouldn't have slept with you
On May 11 2012 11:01 FractalsOnFire wrote: Except the key part is her husband is never there. If he was around and he kept her happy, she probably wouldn't have slept with you
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