|
On May 20 2011 06:27 shifty wrote:
If any high diamond or above is doing well in TvZ I would like to see some replays. I just cannot seem to ever feel good in this matchup no matter what I do.
TvZ is my best. I open 1-1-1 8 marine 3 hellion 1 medic -> 2 banshee -> marine tank FE. Works wonders for me, so far. If I don't 2 rax into fe ->4 rax stim/shield/+1/+1 I do a 1-1-1.
As many have said, it's all about pressure. If you let them take bases uncontested, or trade badly, you've lost. You HAVE to stay in their face, all while slowly tank pushing into them. Opening marine drop + hellion elevator works wonders vs a lot of Z builds, sans spanishwa.
The most widely accepted, and safe game plan, is harass harass harass siege expo -> double ebay, marine/medic/tank (thor if they heavy muta 1-2 of em) as you take a third and try to keep them on 2-3 bases. ALWAYS keep tabs on the hive timing, and infestor/muta count. Even if it's just mentally, it makes the world.
I'm alllllmost 1k masters on NA, and 850-900 on EU depending on how bad I do that day. I bombed recently in TvT >_<
Knowing timings of the Z builds, and then what they entail to follow is also key. Hatch first? Marine hellion pokes are supreme due to slow lings for a longer time. Pool first? Be more passive, but still safely aggressive.
How many lings did he make? Not many? Scout for roaches. Did he cut drones? Kept workers on gas? Late gas, or no gas?
Know the damage of sniping creep. If you let them creep the map, you are at a serious disadvantage. I always scan and stim box a few marines forward to snipe out as many as I can.
Having trouble with muta harass? Go attack him. It'll get the mutas off your back, and let you get defenses up with little to no harass. You don't have to commit, just let him see it and even snipe and scan creep and run.
I'll add a few reps. Note, I in no way, am saying I am good. Somehow I am half decent, with no logical build order or game plan lol.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-209978.jpg)
vs 800 master Z on EU
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-209979.jpg)
vs 1k master Z on NA
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-209980.jpg)
vs 1k master Z on NA
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-209981.jpg)
vs 1.1k master Z on NA
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-209983.jpg)
vs 670 master Z on EU
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-209984.jpg)
vs800 master Z on EU
|
Go watch 12 weeks with the pros mr bitter the episode with qxc on TvZ opened my eyes like crazy!!!! Like seriously I did not know that you can 2 rax at 11/12 which really throws off zerg timing compared to the 12/14 2 rax version. Zerg have to commit much more to it so the eco suffer pretty much trades out.
Also late game ghost opened my eyes to a whole new playing field. I use to play this super aggressive korean style that required a lot of micro and millions of engagements throwing army after army till zerg can't get his 4th up and I just win from cost effectiveness but it was shut down with spanishwa style because of the ability to have this huge mass of units at the timings at which I wish to attack. So now I can sit back knowing its ok if he gets broodlords/infestor because I got ghost bitches!
I really thought broodlord infestor was impossible to beat but I was just looking at the wrong direction trying to stay with the korean metagame. There are so many things foreigners do that are much smarter than koreans that don't need to utilize crazy unit control to stay ahead but rather good tactics and patience.
My TvZ is my strongest matchup but I really want to thank qxc for opening my eyes to this new style of play that lets me sit comfortably and push slower and not give a damn about zerg tier 3.
Also I find zergs who go ultralisks make me laugh because marines 3/3 so good makes me feel op everytime I get 3/3 marines and a good 10-12 tank count.
|
Right now I'd say that i feel pretty confident in TvZ with Z around my lvl (1k master) (if they're just one step above me, I've to all in if I want to win.)
I've 3 openings, all leading into marines/tanks.
A classic 11/12 rax with abuse of the map (Metalo see Sc vs Nestea game 1) or just plain bunker rush, nothing all inish.
A 2 fac opening, 10 supply; 12 rax ect... one gaz - one fac, second gaz second fac. Search blue flame + 4 hellions, if I caught the Z pants down I build more hellions (and straight up win the game) if he has a good simcity/roaches, I just prevent 3rd/creep spread and transition into tanks + expo
Then I had 2 more barracks, start stim on the 1st and cs on the second. I take a quick third, cause I'm safe due to a high tank count. On xel naga caverns, then I just have to push while turtling my way near my xel naga tower. On other maps I push while taking my 3rd, generally in order to protect my 3rd (so it really depends from our positions).
I add a really late starport, I prefer double ebay + mech upgrades. I scan the lair each 2 minutes from the 15 if infestors, 20 if mutas, minute mark, bl are my bane with a heavy tank count.
A 1 rax fe, 1 bunker, double gaz, double fac, double rax while walling, start blue flame hellion, harass a bit, take a quick 3rd (you can match Z income) while dropping or pushing, depending on the map. It's a build that ClouD use a lot, I've not been punish for using it, so it should be pretty safe. Not on tevery map, but map with wide open nat are perfect for hellions.
Also, I start toying with Raven/Marines composition, and I feel like there is some interesting potential, cause it's really hard for the Z to take a 3rd if you play aggressively, and ravens are awesome for denying mining.
|
Diamond T here
What I typically do now is a 2 rax pressure into expansion into 2 factory blue flame hellions and then from there I transition into a marine tank medivac composition. Harassment is extremely important, do NOT turtle in your base unless you play on expanding as much as the zerg is. You won't win if you allow the zerg to get insane economy and tech, you need to do pushes and force him to make units. Make sure you work on your sim city aka building placement for mutas, as you often build your turrets based upon your building lay out so the better your sim city the better your turret placement and less amount you need, when they get a huge flock I recommend leaving a thor in your base.
|
Right now I think that TvZ and TvP are my strongest matchup, and my TvZ strats are a lot less gimmicky, I'm not in masters league atm, but I'm super high diamond (over 1.1k at the time of writing this), and I'm only playing vs masters players. I stole a few variations of my opening from Trump, and basically it's the safest fast expand that you can do as terran vs zerg without giving up total map control and allowing them to spam drones.
Here's the basic idea of it:
1 rax 1 fact CC, tech lab on rax while hellion is building, swap them around, push with ~5 marines and 1 hellion, if they're trying any no-gas shennigans they'll usually take a lot of damage from it, most hellion expand build lack defense from roaches, this is where the tech lab comes into play, swap the fact over and get a siege tank out (no siege mode), drop second gas after tank starts, if you get a full scout off with the hellion and don't see roaches then skip the tank and start blue flame faster, drop reactor on the rax, and second/third factories, you should have secured your natural during the marine hellion push, keep the hellion alive as you need it to defend roach ling all-in and it helps scout/deny scouting forcing riskier play from the zerg or extra overlords to be sac'd. From there I usually go 3 hellion 1 tank production out of the factories while researching siege mode, hit with around 6-9 hellions with blue flame, if they have roaches for defense that means you've done well and delayed their lair (or drones if they add more gas to keep lair timing the same), drop an armory as you push out with the hellions, add a second one when you can afford it, usually when the first ones' half done. Get thors and e-bay + turrets if needed to defend from mutas, I tend to go more of the pure mech style in my TvZs, however if you prefer biomech skip the third fact and add more rax and get stim/combat sheilds asap, get starport and medivacs, harass with drop ships and hellions, take third, push with marine tanks just before his third finishes, or about 45 seconds afterwards, depending on how much damage you did early, and your tech timings, etc... (the idea here is that he just spent a lot of larvae and minerals droning up the expo, your attack should do good damage to his army/drone count if not killing his third outright, most times you can deny good amount of creep with the hellions, so depending on the map you'll do more or less damage, keep this in mind with your third timing.
The key to winning in TvZ is to expand aggressively enough that you don't have to practically kill the zerg before they get their third to stay even, while maintaining the threat of an attack at pretty much all times, forcing them to produce units/static-D. The hellion expand build works great for this, as does the 2 rax, I've found that at the masters level, the 2 rax is a bit more of a gamble, as if they go pool first it's pretty hard to do any damage, and then they can really keep you in the dark as far as scouting goes, and the threat of a baneling bust or roach attack is much greater due to the delayed tech, however on some maps the 2 rax expand into blue flame build is most definitely superior (e.g. close positions metal/shattered). On large maps it's really hard to pull off a good 2 rax without going proxy and all-in with scvs.
If you want to take your own style and builds and refine them so that they're more effective, here are a few goals to keep in mind:
Maintain as much map control as possible (or more like deny zerg as much map control as you can), prevent them from pinning you to your base with mutas, banelings, or zergling runbys, if at any point you feel like you can't move out of your base, you're in trouble and need to start building some static D (bunkers, turrets, etc..) Mutas just plain suck in a straight up fight, and most zergs spam drones after their mutas, so if you make enough turrets to just leave your base and have it be fine without any units back home, you can usually go kill, or at least force a shit ton of units if you move out right as the mutas hit your base. Infestors are annoying as hell late game, and mid game as well, ghosts are cheaper on the gas front so you can more easily go marine ghost thor tank hellion medivac with lots of upgrades, mech is good vs zerg without upgrades, and even when you're behind on upgrades, but when you're both maxed on upgrades, mech is even more effective than when you're both at no upgrades, same with marine + medivac vs lings.
|
if they go for infestors take a third and make (cloak?)banshees, if they go for mutas make sure you have good turret coverage in time and push out with tanks and marines + medivacs and then take a third.
split your marines and tanks up, and push towards expansions. after the each of you have a third base just look to be very cost efficient and you will eventually widdle him down economically.
if zerg destroys one of ur pushes u will lose, u always have to come out ahead when you push vs zerg. if you come out even he will make 20 drones and then you will be behind.
|
only 2 viable ways really (that aren't cheesy)
1) Hyper aggression
2) Turtle
Hyper Aggression means 2 rax on medium sized maps, and 1 rax fe into helion, 16 stimmed marine drop, tank push, banshees, etc on large maps. You want to make the zerg scared shitless, and I mean this. You don't want him to even consider the possibility of sending his mutalisks to harrass your base because he may outright lose. You don't want him to have the time to mass broodlords. Drop 2-3 locations at once, while pushing the middle and killing creep tumors, before sieging his natural. Run some blue flame helions to his mineral line. Just make his life hell.
For turtling, you want it half map vs half map. Terran on 4 bases can turtle against Zerg on infinity bases. Bunkers, turrets, and Planetary fortresses are your friend. The key to turtling is to always have your army in a good location and to never be caught unseiged. Have vikings in time for his broods. With vikings, Zerg cannot engage a siegetank and bunker position without being extremely cost inefficient. Your deathball > his deathball. After the big battle, he will mass units, probably lings or if he has enough minerals ultras or anything that will counter your army. Set up a contain, siege your tanks, build some bunkers. And even if he remaxes instantly your smaller army will be able to do work.
|
The problem with pure mech is the need of 3 bases, and is almost hard countered by infestors -- not to mention mobility issues. NP onto thors, or on to tanks as they rush in with sling bling roach is just too damn strong if they do it well, on your side of the map, so they have time to remax as you try and slow push to them.
I also do 5 marine 1 hellion poke, and rarely does it do 'great' damage, if any at all. If they put lings out of position, sure I can snipe quite a few -- or an OL over the hatch etc. The key to the poke isn't damage, but forcing spines and lings, as opposed to drones. Sure, if you can do damage, do it.
I personally wouldn't recommend any 1 rax FE other than the 1 rax reaper FE into CS/Stim rush off 4 rax. It catches a lot of zergs off guard, and with half assed control does really well against sling openings if they have slow blings.
|
I'm pretty sure to kill one Broodlord from one ghost you need 12 snipes? I Somehow don't think thats the most efficient way to deal with them. Not even going to consider ultras (EMP is obviously great for infestors though).
Atm, I think the best way to win is to harass early, get to 2 bases quickly, then do everything in your power to stop the Z getting their 3rd up. Its when they get a 3 base economy things start to go downhill, fast.
I've rarely seen any top T's go for pure mech vs Z since the new patch, infestors just hard-counter it perfectly whilst not even considering NP (which is amazing). The best way to go is for marine/tank/medivac with 1-2 thor support for mutas.
|
I have had sccess with mech play + ghosts to deal with mutas(snipe is just so awesome) infestors, broodlords and ultras and ravens to support thors in dealing with mutas.
Basically due to the recent patches i think blizzard wants us to use casters alot. I found ghosts to be useful in every match up and I think they are critical in the late game vs the swarm who goes to hive tech.
Also hellions are crucial in TvZ as they not only do decent against lings but they are great for map control, they are a good mineral dump for teching players and they are pretty good meat shields.
I used to play bio and I know like most terran players and pros play bio but I just think everything zerg makes counters bio too well. Infestors blings and roaches pretty much one shot marines.
Lastly I always have had trouble with zergs late game harassing my base with mutas and not being able to defend while moving out. I think blizzard gave terran the perfect tool to combat this in sensor towers.
|
I go for bfh with marauders before his mutas come out. once they do i get thors. 
|
From my perspective what currently happens is that it is impossible to lategame win vs a Zerg ? Can someone confirm , deny please?
You're right, it's completely 100% impossible to win against a Zerg in the lategame.
|
Dealing with infestors is surprisingly easy to me. Although ghosts are the counter to infestors, but imo, it's much easier to use marauders to kill infestors. I
1) Infestors are armored 90hp, and marauders deal 20 damage to armored. So 2 marauders can kill 1 infestor in 2 shot. 2 stimmed marauders can kill 1 infestor in 1 second.
2) Moreover, infestors are fast on creep. It's really hard to use ghost or marines to chase them down, but with concussive shell, marauders can guarantee a kill easily. Just scan and right click 2 marauders to infestors and you can kill them.
3) Marauders are beefy, so even if they have zerglings around the infestors, it doesn't matter. I once kill 3 infestors with 2 stimmed marauders before they got killed by zerglings around them. Moreover, with marauders can withstand the splash damage from the tanks when the tank hits the zerglings.
I usually go 2 marauders to snipe infestors. Sometimes 2 marauders + 1 medivac so that after charging in and snipe, I can still save marauders. It's so easy to kill infestors that I'm afraid blizzard going to change infestors from armored to light, lolzzz.
|
I simply can't win vs zerg either. I've tried pretty much every style possible. Im 1k+ master on both EU and NA with literally a 10% win rate vs zerg and 70%+ in the other matchups.
I tried pure mech, but i simply get roflstomped by infestors mind controlling then 100 lings/ banelings rolling in. Even if i do have better upgrades it does not matter.
11/12 or 11/11 rax can catch some zergs off gaurd but puts you behind if the zerg player holds it off easily or goes speed first.
I was thinking of maybe thor ghost hellion? emp infestors, cant fungal or NP, although i am yet to try this out.
The one thing in which i have had a small amount of success with is harassing with hellions and marine drops all over the map while turtling like crazy at a "centre" point, such as the gold on xel'naga. But when they appear at your base with 15 broodlords... yeah...
If any highly ranked Terrans could post some replays vs zerg it would be great. (high master or gm) At this point i wouldn't even mind if someone has a fairly successful all in that works that i could copy ;D
|
I have the same problems against Zerg. Im Diamond atm and win about 80% of my TvT and the same with TvP but i loose nearly every TvZ match.
I think that Zergs have no real weaknesses cause of their extreme fast units. I cant drop due to the this immense Overlord spread and Mutalisks. The only way to win against Z for me is constantly attacking and hoping, that he makes mistakes or one giant allin. But the winrate is pretty low with these builds and i prefer longer games.
I hope Blizzard give us some new units in future Addons to deal with Zergs. We need some units, which perform well against Ling,Bling Muta or a genie like Boxer who shows us new ways to deal with Zergs.
My opening is often 2 rax FE into 3 rax 2 factories and push with BFH and Marauders. If he techs to mutas, i put in some marines into the push and hope he dies. Another build is 2 Port Banshee on one base. With these builds i have the most success.
|
2 rax pressure into expand into marine tank push works out quite well...
Also if you don't feel like playing a macro game, just 2 port banshee rush into expand followed by armory and thor for the mutas if 2port banshee fails to kill them off. Key is to deny scouting of course. I usually do a 5 marine+hellion poke to distract them followed by spreading the remaining marines around my base to deny overlord scouting for the 2port banshee
|
Wow a lot of awesome advice here from fellow terran players <3 ( and even replays!)
I want to incorporate 2 rax bunker pressure but I fear my micro/multitasking is not too good that I will end up behind at the end. For now I have been sticking with Thor/Hellion composition, pushing around 12 min mark with 6 thors, a bunch of blue flame hellions with +1 Armor. The problem is I almost die to early roach aggression if I don't spot it early on.
Carn has a sick mech push with Thor/Hellion/Ghost around 15 min mark with 2/1 upgrades. Check out VODs from his jtv channel if you are interested. I believe he is high masters in KR and GM in SEA server.
|
On May 20 2011 04:38 GoKu` wrote:I was the same way about 12 hours ago. I posted the thread. Inside is the VOD you MUST WATCH! http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=224594The vod gives you QXC's new aggresive turtling style and how to use Ghosts to completely shut down hive tech and infestors. Ghost counter Broodlord Infestor Ultralisk pretty hard. it is .... super good. Jumped a hundred points in masters today because i went allkill on zergs today
QFT. Also bookmarking it for when i get home (So i can watch the VOD)
|
On May 20 2011 08:54 QQmonster wrote:
if they go for infestors take a third and make (cloak?)banshees, if they go for mutas make sure you have good turret coverage in time and push out with tanks and marines + medivacs and then take a third.
split your marines and tanks up, and push towards expansions. after the each of you have a third base just look to be very cost efficient and you will eventually widdle him down economically.
if zerg destroys one of ur pushes u will lose, u always have to come out ahead when you push vs zerg. if you come out even he will make 20 drones and then you will be behind.
As a zerg myself, I cannot agree more.
Mutas are actually a way to buy time to tech up to hive to get out the broodlords and ultralisks to support the mass lings and banelings.
They aren't that good of a fighting units, as long as you have some well placed missile turrets up and some marines around, mutas cannot do too much and what a zerg can do is either getting many more mutas to take down turrets in order to harass or just use the mutas to pick off any scouting units that you sent.
Lings and banelings aren't that good when attacking a well defended base, some bunkers and well placed siege tanks will scare off most of my attacks because I would rather attack with my tier 3 units for a safer option (unless my supply is seriously high and need to get rid some for the tier 3 units)
|
If anyone wants to add me on Bnet at Techno.720, I will discuss TvZ with you and you can watch me play my Zerg friend.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
