|
I am just curious how to do it atm as a Terran?
I have tryd everything I could and I always come to the conclusion he has to be dead before his 3rd ...
I am following TLO struggle vs Z , Hashe struggle and Kawaiirice struggle, QXC struggle - thats it about the active streamers
So tellme, what do you do? What build do you play? What is your first attack exactly ? When do you push around , how many bases do you have and how many does he? What is your army composition ?
I really need advice BADLY , I am going mad, I dont want to really quit SC2 because of not finding a way to beat non-brainless Zergs T_T
And I need the experience from master league players who win Zergs with more than 60% please, thanks guys
BTW is there anyone here who considers TVZ his strongest matchup?
and before you start reading, all I can say is "HERE COME THE MUTAS"
From my perspective what currently happens is that it is impossible to lategame win vs a Zerg ? Can someone confirm , deny please? ( Brood Loard Corrupter etc etc etc)
If you go mass factory units they will hardcounter you with Roach Infestor
( Idra also meant it has also too many weaknesses and i think most of us terrans feel the same no? )
Nodody 3 raxxes a zerg
Helion into Banshee play ? Most Zergs adapted
2 Raxx Expand builds ? what time do you push out ?
1 Raxx Expand builds ? what time do you push out?
Blue Flame Builds? ? i guess most zerg adapted and can get roaches in time without falling behind ..
How good would it be to get a 2 base marine marauder medivac combination and push out ? when do you push in that case ?
How effective it is to have really fast medivacs and by that i mean so that you can dualdrop before 12 minutes?
so it will be Marine / Siegetank/ Medivac
vs either Roach Ling Infestor or vs Ling Bling Muta
if you trade 1:1 vs the Roach Ling Infestor build i see most highlvl terrans having even games and the trades seem fair
but what if you trade vs Zergling Bling Muta ?
the problem is that you have to have your marines survive all the time and be enough to defeat a muta force anytime - YOU CANNOT LOSE TOO MANY TANKS
and you have to win the first push for the zerg an punish his economy or you lose
he will outbase you?
so what do you do ?
What is ure Build, what are youre timings ? How many techlabs etc reactors for timing attacks?
Or : Do you all in ?
I see the problem in unequal trades somehow and mutas rewarding with mapcontroll and massexpand
Please teach me how to TVZ :&
|
I think right now most terrans are in the same boat you are in man. Zergs have learned to adapt to our timing pushes. They know the timings so well they are able to hold and come out so far ahead. Just have to wait for the metagame to change again to be honest. My biggest problem in TvZ is not the broodlord/ultra tech switch. I can hang in there, but its after the big battle where they morph in 150 lings at once. You have to come out so much more ahead in your big engadgements
|
I'm in the same boat, and I saw lzgamer struggling too. The biggest problem for me are infestors. Are you guys having trouble with infestor + ling into hive (--> broodlord / ultra)? I'm still trying to find a sollution.
I tried to learn from the pro's, so I downloaded alot of TvZ reps @ sc2rep.com. I almost never found a terran winning, unless with cheese.
|
Kawaiirice is having trouble? TvZ is and has been his best matchup for ever now oO. He has a really smart style but its quite difficult to pull off.
I think you have to just heavily comitt to something, not go half way. Best composition right now is Marine / Tank. Get a good economy early through whatever you wanna do, whether its hellion expand, 1 rax expand, 2 rax expand, w/e. Then either go for a comitted 2 base marine tank push or get an early 3rd and turtle it with tanks / turrets, droppng marines to keep active and playing for the lategame.
Always keep up on upgrades, theyre really important.
Lategame go thors, tanks, and marines with ghost support to emp infestors and snipe brood lords.
Also check out griffith's marine micro map because u absolutely need good marine micro vs Zerg.
As for timings, a 2 base push will usually be either as Zerg is droning his 3rd or as he first starts to build up the muta cloud. Forcing mutas in low numbers to have to engage your army is really strong.
|
this is so true , not only do u have to have the first fight CLEARLY won which is hard itself, but you also need to be ready for the massling after ...
|
The Subtle Art ,
I am thankful for you telling me that it is possible, but you do not acctually tell me what build, what timings and how to do it , or maybe some helpful replay or anything
|
On May 20 2011 04:19 Rano wrote:
The Subtle Art ,
I am thankful for you telling me that it is possible, but you do not acctually tell me what build, what timings and how to do it , or maybe some helpful replay or anything
Well a matchup is pretty complex, I really can't generalize it in one post. There's plenty of openings you can do and its map dependent. On some maps 1 rax is totally viable, and on some 2 rax pressure --> expand is amazing (like on xel naga). Idra's also been saying hellion expands are very strong. I edited my post to give you the most basic 2 base timing, but i really don't feel its useful to try and completely generalize a matchup to that extent.
As for replays, there are plenty of pro players that upload their replay packs on teamliquid. I know one of the rep packs from a liquid weekly has a jinro replay pack for example.
|
On May 20 2011 04:09 Rano wrote:
Blue Flame Builds? ? i guess most zerg adapted and can get roaches in time without falling behind ..
:&
As a master zerg, I can tell you, the most ANNOYING thing I ever faced against Terran are wierd-timing banshee builds. Truth to the matter is, if you make everything transparent while doing a gimmicky build (when I saw gimmicky build I mean something that has an honest counter that any competent zerg will know) you will get shut down. If you DENY scouting from a zerg, you have the freedom to do anything. This means mech, dropship play, helions, stim timing. These things are unrealistically deadly if they have no idea its coming.
In my experience, I die mostly to helion harass and mech play. If you do a correct timing that isn't meant to kill but rather hurt the zerg while expanding, its very powerful.
TLDR
Deny Scouting, dont be predictable, dont use gimmick builds.
|
TheSubtle Art,
can I ask you if you play Terran? I know how all my builds look exactly until at least 10 minutes
The point is , you give no helpful information at all :/ we all know that
|
Slurpy ,
both reasons why you lose is that you do not include roaches in your build order timings? While reading this I am sure there is better set up build timings with roaches than I think you have somehow
The simplest and most effective answer to anything with 2 factories or factory play before lets say 10 minutes is roaches .. just pure roaches nothing else
if its more than 3 factorys just go roach infestor and wayne anything else
Whatever I read about you, you could all counter it with roach transitions?
I have seen builds though with 4 roaches ready for the expected blueflame timing pressure and no fall back ?
Or is it really the most effective ?
|
I was the same way about 12 hours ago.
I posted the thread. Inside is the VOD you MUST WATCH!
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=224594
The vod gives you QXC's new aggresive turtling style and how to use Ghosts to completely shut down hive tech and infestors. Ghost counter Broodlord Infestor Ultralisk pretty hard.
it is .... super good. Jumped a hundred points in masters today because i went allkill on zergs today
|
Masters Zerg here;
I'm starting to see more Ghost play as they remain a solid choice no matter what tech path I go.
EMP -> Infestors
(When sending ghosts in cloaked to EMP a group of infestors only send 1 at a time as if you miss any infestors your ghosts can just be fungaled down)
Snipe -> Broodlords / Ultras
(Not the best counter but it works can can very quickly remove a lot of zerg DPS from the field due to how rapidly you can spam snipe)
Cloak / Nuke Harass
(Suprisingly effective as it makes me have to sink a lot of resources into Overseers and if you include a ghost in a drop and drop a nuke while stimming marines as I can't run my army in there without A) letting 6-14 stimmed marines shred large portions of it while I dive the ghost or B) risk having a large chunk of my army nuked)
Edit: The poster above me links you to much better resources re: ghosts so ignore me and just follow his links.
|
My question for you is, why is everything a timing? Can something not be used for simple map control? Can something not be used for keeping the zerg honest (i.e. make sure he isn't over droning and getting early third)? If you make helions and he makes roaches, thats FINE. those roaches delayed his lair, his spire, and his mutas. With helion's you can completely deny zerglings and prevent him from third basing. One thing you need to understand is that you DO NOT have to do damage with all of your units or timings. Simply forcing roaches is extremely frusturating.
Ant to answer your second question, no, roaches are not part of my everyday build for terran. If you watch any high level zerg streaming, I.E. Idra, he uses his first 100 gas for speed, second 100 for lair. He simply doesn't USUALLY get roach. Id say he 95% skips roach tech against terran. And when he does this, he has to turtle in his base with 2 spines and a bunch of speedlings. If helions come out and don't do damage, why is that such a bad thing?
Idra comments on how much he hates roaches because it delays his mutas so much, probably 50% of the time even if you show factory tech, zergs dont go roach because its sooo much of a resource drain. Zerglings are just so much better for map control, and economy.
|
On May 20 2011 04:37 Rano wrote:
Slurpy ,
both reasons why you lose is that you do not include roaches in your build order timings? While reading this I am sure there is better set up build timings with roaches than I think you have somehow
The simplest and most effective answer to anything with 2 factories or factory play before lets say 10 minutes is roaches .. just pure roaches nothing else
if its more than 3 factorys just go roach infestor and wayne anything else
Whatever I read about you, you could all counter it with roach transitions?
I have seen builds though with 4 roaches ready for the expected blueflame timing pressure and no fall back ?
Or is it really the most effective ?
You go roach before 10 minutes and you prolly won't end up taking a 3rd anytime soon. You'll lose map control because they won't have speed and even when they have speed you have to keep them on creep. You could push out but the Terran would punish you and sac 10 hellions for all your drones. Mean while you have to think/find out what hes going to transition into... either mech, Bio and Tank, or Banshees are the most popular. I have to agree and say hellion openings are annoying.
|
I have been having a lot of trouble with this too. Against any decent zerg you will not be able to punish them for droning too much. Additionally, you need a lot of marines tanks and medivacs before moving out, but Infestors shut down any timing, so I've given up on any Marine/Tank 2 base timings. My new strategy is actually very effective - I get 2 Fac and 1 Starport off of 2 bases, while grabbing upgrades. I get siege first(to deny bling bust timings), followed immediately by BFH(one Fac is reactor, 1 tech). I keep my BFH alive and simply try to keep him from moving out with a lot of lings(and I try to snipe lings/drones if I can). I am careful to keep them close to mineral patches, etc. where they can't be surrounded. While they are going around the map I throw down my 3rd CC, and 2 Starports, followed by techlabs. I start pumping 2 Port banshee. I use these banshees to snipe spine crawlers at his third, followed by running BFH in after he moves his army away, but before spine crawlers finish(by attacking the other side of the map with a drop as he's cleaning up the banshees). From there I constantly harass him at every base he has, and I drop/banshee his tech while he's defending a far away expo. This eventually builds up to me being able to do a Marine/Tank push at his nat(with a few Thors), usually keeping him off my back while moving across the map by harassing an expo.
Unfortunately, this style relies a bit on the Zerg getting flustered, so it stops working at very high levels. However, it is strong for a number of reasons. Firstly, the BFH keep him from harassing you with his mutas(if he opens mutas), allowing you to invest your first minerals in a CC rather than turrets. Secondly, the banshees allow you to exploit any pure Infestor opening. You will force him to cut Infestors and switch to mutas/invest in overseers, allowing you to do a bio/tank timing push soon after Lair(hopefully while the third is going up). Obviously, drops are always powerful and allow you to distract him and power through his defenses if he doesn't react in time.
|
I think a lot of terrans miss the boat with ghosts. Dont EMP the infestors but rather snipe them, they are EXPENSIVE units and take forever to remake. Probably a little of topic but it should help. also use ravens, they're are super powerful, help you rid of creep, use PDD, and since zerg units clump up the seeker missles are great.
|
Since I want to find the best possible answer,
one of my Terran Buddy Remedy wrote me on Skype what he thinks the best to work
His name is Remedy aka RMDX and is a 1200 Masters Terran
His is playing Helion Banshee Pressure into Expanding
after
gets blueflame followed up by Marine Tank
He sayd that by having pressured in "3" ways , he is able to controll the muta amount
There is a VOD up on this luckily where he plays against Dimaga where the build is shown and even explained
http://www.youtube.com/user/ForceSC2strategy#p/c/1/LPkS0Vw0CU8
|
From my perspective what currently happens is that it is impossible to lategame win vs a Zerg ? Can someone confirm , deny please? It is not impossible no.
My second best MU is TvZ, right after TvP:
When do I put pressure? 5:00(hellion) - 7:00 (thor-medivac-marine) - 9:30 (thor tank medivac hellions) 13:30 (thor maine hellion tank banshee marauder medivac), and I do drops whenever he is aggressive.
When do I expo? 7:30-13:30-whenever feels right
You need to learn to effectively sim city across the entire map, here's a screenshot of one of my latest games in a TvZ
![[image loading]](http://oi54.tinypic.com/2h5uqa9.jpg)
I'm not going to write out my build, because it's very long and tedious; but I open with a 1-1-1 fast thor expo into mech& harassment.
Don't sting on the turrets. If he gets allot of mutas out even up to five turrets is worth it, if it saves you 10 workers.
What is your army composition ? I'm a big promoter of an even unit composition. So mine generally is: Thor, marine, tank, ghost, medivac, banshee, hellion (and sometimes vikings). Marine tank is a good for your main army; but later game you're going to need to have thors in there. By pushing with your thors first with marines a bit behind infestors have a hard time getting fungals. And Thors really make positioning of your marines much more forgiving against mutalisks.
How effective it is to have really fast medivacs and by that i mean so that you can dualdrop before 12 minutes? Well 12 minutes for medivacs is extremely late. The two big timings for medivacs that I can think of is at 7:00 (fastest), and 9:30 (relatively fast after expo). Fast drops are extremely effective.
How many techlabs etc reactors for timing attacks? For my barracks, absolutely zero reactors, with one tech lab for upgrades. Every additional barracks can be used for walling in and improving your sim city. All my factories/starports have reactors and techlabs, which is a given.
Best of luck.
|
The answer to all of your questions is "it depends". The best time to attack depends on the game, the map, distances between bases, the Zerg build, your build, etc etc etc..
|
I've adopted SlayerS style TvZ. The basic idea is keeping it tank light, marine heavy and focus on getting 3/3 marines and dropping marines absolutely everywhere. The basic idea as follows:
Gasless 1Rax FE
2 Rax
2 Refinery
Tech Lab -> Stim (Combat Shield when this finishes around next year)
2x Reactor
Factory -> Reactor
Engi Bay -> +1 attack
Starport (take the Factory's reactor, make a tech lab on factory)
2 Refineries @ natural
From here I kind of play it by ear. Usually I like to fake pressure at the front while dropping the main and natural all while making a CC behind all this to grab my third. I'd then add 2 more barracks (both reactor) and 1 more factory with both making tanks. Once +1atk on the bay finishes I immediately start +1armor and when that is about 40% I make an armory and another bay. Then double upgrade +2 then +3. Basically just keep the Zerg army busy so he cannot easily take bases.
I also have a mech based TvZ build but I feel it is gimmicky and revolves around timings. I hate builds like that but it is *very* successful on the ladder and against my partners. It is, however, more easily counterable with a simple build order than I feel the SlayerS style is.
+ Show Spoiler +
Here is the exact BO for the mech build I use:
Gasless 1Rax FE
2 Refineries
*Produce exactly 5 marines*
Depot ~22 (tell this SCV to move to where you want your factories. Also tell your SCV making the CC to move to where you want the factory as well -- the timings work out nice for these guys)
Factory (Tech lab)
Factory
2x Hellion + Blue Flame (you'll make 6 Hellion total)
2 refineries at natural
Armory when you have about 200 excessive minerals
Tech Lab the other Factory
Reactor on Barracks
*Go and harass with your Hellion*
2x Thor
Factory @ Barracks and take over it's reactor
*Push with 4x Thor + Hellion + 8 SCV*
Honestly that push generally kills the Zerg most times. From there you need to figure out which path to branch down. If he is going muta/ling you'll want to add another Reactor Factory and another Tech Factory and make 3x Thor 4x Hellion per cycle. If he is going Infestor you have to completely abandon the strategy. Lift off your Reactor Factory and make a Tech Lab, research siege mode, build 3x Barracks and research stim/shields and get infantry upgrades. I haven't found a good way of dealing with Infestor/Ling -> Infestor/Broodlord with Factory. It seems like you need marine/tank. If he is going Roach you want half Thor / half Tank and a bunch of Hellion to buffer damage.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
