EPTI like the benefits of fast thor
when do you get your 2nd gas, right after the factory? when do you get your 2nd command center?
( do you cut marines, or after how many thors?
thx
How to play Terran v Zerg as Terran atm ? Masters - Page 2
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Rano
Germany11 Posts
I like the benefits of fast thor when do you get your 2nd gas, right after the factory? when do you get your 2nd command center? ( do you cut marines, or after how many thors? thx | ||
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Rano
Germany11 Posts
this was really helpful, yeah I really like the idea and the potential of quick reactor starports and the aggression it can offer , and the way you described the midgame transition it sounded save thx | ||
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ShoeFactory
United States186 Posts
I think the key to playing TvZ is constant aggression. I open 2 rax with bunker pressure into FE and subsequently marine tank medivac. Constantly try to push out to his base with and set up tanks right outside his creep. use marines to kill creep and drop marines to his peripheral expansions. This constant aggression buys time for your 3/3 upgrades. Marine spreading near your tanks is vital. | ||
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Tortious_Tortoise
United States944 Posts
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Tenks
United States3104 Posts
On May 20 2011 05:10 mbr2321 wrote: A mostly mech composition is not countered by Roach/infestor. If you do damage with early BF Hellions, they have no units. If your hellions fail, good tank positioning and a slow push fucks up Roach infestor. If you're not caught with your pants down without detection or in bad positioning, you will roll through roach infestor. If the game progresses, when my 3rd starts to kick in, I add a fifth factory and two starports and crank vikings blindly. If Zerg has teched to BL, it works great. If not, Vikings dominate the map, shut down any magic box (four or five vikings plus 2ish thors do incredibly well against the same food in muta), serve as scouts and can kill stray overlords. I've ran into problems doing this because if I get slightly out of position with my Vikings and they get caught in Fungal range but not Siege range they all die. Then they just move their BL and roll down all my tanks. I have to babysit the Vikings so much that I feel so nervous going that composition against Infestor/BL. | ||
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Shaithis
United States383 Posts
Thors are not a reliable muta counter, nor are turrets. Vikings fight mutas in the air like they fight everything else on the ground. The best readily available options are (1) stimmed marines and (2) ghosts. BCs work very well with upgrades but you won't be getting air weps / armor in 1v1. | ||
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jyLee
United States350 Posts
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willy001
United States89 Posts
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rmAmnesiac
United Kingdom185 Posts
On May 20 2011 04:52 eXwOn wrote: It is not impossible no. My second best MU is TvZ, right after TvP: When do I put pressure? 5:00(hellion) - 7:00 (thor-medivac-marine) - 9:30 (thor tank medivac hellions) 13:30 (thor maine hellion tank banshee marauder medivac), and I do drops whenever he is aggressive. When do I expo? 7:30-13:30-whenever feels right You need to learn to effectively sim city across the entire map, here's a screenshot of one of my latest games in a TvZ ![[image loading]](http://oi54.tinypic.com/2h5uqa9.jpg) I'm not going to write out my build, because it's very long and tedious; but I open with a 1-1-1 fast thor expo into mech& harassment. Don't sting on the turrets. If he gets allot of mutas out even up to five turrets is worth it, if it saves you 10 workers. I'm a big promoter of an even unit composition. So mine generally is: Thor, marine, tank, ghost, medivac, banshee, hellion (and sometimes vikings). Marine tank is a good for your main army; but later game you're going to need to have thors in there. By pushing with your thors first with marines a bit behind infestors have a hard time getting fungals. And Thors really make positioning of your marines much more forgiving against mutalisks. Well 12 minutes for medivacs is extremely late. The two big timings for medivacs that I can think of is at 7:00 (fastest), and 9:30 (relatively fast after expo). Fast drops are extremely effective. For my barracks, absolutely zero reactors, with one tech lab for upgrades. Every additional barracks can be used for walling in and improving your sim city. All my factories/starports have reactors and techlabs, which is a given. Best of luck. scrap station lol. lets see it for tal darim typhoo peaks cross spots  | ||
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Shaithis
United States383 Posts
On May 20 2011 05:31 willy001 wrote: one way that i have seen used to great success at gold level and down is to open with a 6rax. the 6rax i am referring to is the one that TLO used against spanishiwa in their show match. i find that when executed correctly it forces zerg to make banelings. just because banelings are made doesn't mean that they will be effective however, just make sure that when he makes banelings that you stutter step, especially since he will likely try to surround you with zerglings. during this initial push you should be able to safely expand and put up defenses in your main. if you attempt this build you will not be getting gas until towards the end of your first push. a key factor to this push is to make sure that he doesn't not scout you effectively. in other words you positioning of your barracks must be damn near unscoutable unless he busts in. you see an overlord you kill it before it sees those 6 rax. if you can hide the 6 rax until the push then he will be caught of guard and will not be able to make banelings until after your push is well underway. if your first push doesnt win outright you should be able to transition fairly smoothly but without, gas unfortunately.also be sure to wall off as quickly as you can. make those marines as constantly as you can and keep that scv count going to expand while your opponent is trying to recover. that's the best tvz early game strategy i have seen used other than MarineKingPrime's 2 rax opening consisting of 3 marines 7scvs that he used in game 1 of the finals against IMNestea The 6 rax build cuts SCV production at 15, and is an all-in. You cannot execute it and maintain constant SCV production. Also, zerg is not in fact forced to make banelings; roaches + spines work just fine. Also, 2 rax (12 rax and 14 rax) allows more pressure on the FE. I don't really recommend 6 rax in TvZ for these reasons. | ||
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WarSame
Canada1950 Posts
On May 20 2011 05:34 rmAmnesiac wrote: scrap station lol. lets see it for tal darim typhoo peaks cross spots Exactly what I was thinking. If you tried to split map on TDA the Zerg would have so much money he could do Ultra drops on you. | ||
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WarSame
Canada1950 Posts
On May 20 2011 05:35 Shaithis wrote: The 6 rax build cuts SCV production at 15, and is an all-in. You cannot execute it and maintain constant SCV production. Also, zerg is not in fact forced to make banelings; roaches + spines work just fine. Also, 2 rax (12 rax and 14 rax) allows more pressure on the FE. I don't really recommend 6 rax in TvZ for these reasons. No no no no. You misunderstand. It's at a gold level. Obviously, you can do the same thing but execute it better and you will always win at the Master's level. | ||
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Rano
Germany11 Posts
Summarizing up I like the most so far - Remedy s Helion/Banshee - Expand - Blueflame idea - Boxer s fast Medivac Reactor idea - Amnesiac s 1/1/1 Thor Expand idea Those 3 builds are by far the most interesting except of 2 raxx pressure , havent lookd at QXCs yet | ||
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Prestig0s
Germany14 Posts
On May 20 2011 04:52 eXwOn wrote: It is not impossible no. My second best MU is TvZ, right after TvP: When do I put pressure? 5:00(hellion) - 7:00 (thor-medivac-marine) - 9:30 (thor tank medivac hellions) 13:30 (thor maine hellion tank banshee marauder medivac), and I do drops whenever he is aggressive. When do I expo? 7:30-13:30-whenever feels right You need to learn to effectively sim city across the entire map, here's a screenshot of one of my latest games in a TvZ I'm not going to write out my build, because it's very long and tedious; but I open with a 1-1-1 fast thor expo into mech& harassment. Don't sting on the turrets. If he gets allot of mutas out even up to five turrets is worth it, if it saves you 10 workers. I'm a big promoter of an even unit composition. So mine generally is: Thor, marine, tank, ghost, medivac, banshee, hellion (and sometimes vikings). Marine tank is a good for your main army; but later game you're going to need to have thors in there. By pushing with your thors first with marines a bit behind infestors have a hard time getting fungals. And Thors really make positioning of your marines much more forgiving against mutalisks. Well 12 minutes for medivacs is extremely late. The two big timings for medivacs that I can think of is at 7:00 (fastest), and 9:30 (relatively fast after expo). Fast drops are extremely effective. For my barracks, absolutely zero reactors, with one tech lab for upgrades. Every additional barracks can be used for walling in and improving your sim city. All my factories/starports have reactors and techlabs, which is a given. Best of luck. This strat is so fucking ridiciolous.... I'm zerg and find now way vs Terran atm :D Marines actually are countering all units zerg has and Medivacs are like invincable | ||
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imBLIND
United States2626 Posts
The beginning build order is an absolute piece of cake 10depot 12rax 12gas OC and Tech lab when the rax finishes Reaper when the tech lab finishes The timings work out perfectly so that you have 25 gas when the barracks is done and 50 when the lab is done. From here, I use 1 or 2 scvs to build bunkers to force him to pull drones or to sneak a bunker in a critical spot, like his choke or behind his mineral lines. I try and force as many lings, spines, and drones off minerals as I can with 2 scvs, a reaper, and a bunker. Keeping the reaper alive is essential. You'll find that microing the reaper often leaves you with a huge surplus of minerals and about 100~200 gas sometimes. Get your CC sometime before or during the harass. I find it efficient to leave an idle scv in a close spot and pressing F1 to build the cc. The better your multitasking, the better this build becomes. The primary objective of this aggression though, is to force a tech path or to scout what tech path he is going. I usually encounter mass lings or roaches, sometimes banelings but not very often. The best part of this build is what comes after it. The instant the reaper finishes, you will have 100 gas for stim or a factory. This is pretty amazing because now you have a bunch of options to choose from, depending on what you want to do or what you scout: Hellion harass w/ drops Hellion/marauder push 4rax marine pressure --> marine/tank/medivac aggression Thors Mech and turtle Any build you can think of can transition out of this 1rax reaper. If you analyze his army composition, how hard he's droning, the map, and his tech path, you can choose the most effective means of crippling him. I don't think I need to explain what to pick vs what the zerg does. The hardest part comes after the initial aggression. If you succeed, start pressuring him in more places, like having a drop and a decent attack going at the same time. If you fail, start turtling, but keep the map control if you can with hellions and drops. The goal, whether your pressure was effective or not, is to make the zerg attack you when he does not want to attack. Constant aggression is a good way to do this b/c you will never miss the timing window that way, but timing attacks are even more powerful if your scouting is extremely accurate. Some very efficient ways to do this in SC2: Keep expanding and force him to take them out early or die to upgraded mech Keep using small marine drops along with a medium sized army somewhere else to do an absurd amount of damage | ||
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D_K_night
Canada615 Posts
If I focus on expanding the zerg just takes +2 bases ahead of me, and soon I'm overun by some huge army that I cannot hope to defeat. I'm starting to see a lot of Brood lord play which comes much faster than I'm expecting. The problem is, if I go for a blue flame hellion drop and zerg is completely expecting it, I don't end up dropping it at all and forced to just go back home, putting me behind while zerg just mass drones up or takes yet another base. If I try to somehow transition to hellion/thor, I'm overrun by roaches before I can get any decent army size going. I am just simply outmacroed and can't compete. There's even been games where I roast tons of drones with my blue flame hellions, expo up, feel confident, and what do you know? Brood lords show up and I'm dead. I'm starting to feel that blue flame hellion doesn't do as much damage that I think it does. The situation seems to be - 1) I roast ~13 drones on a drop on his main 2) he knows a real push ain't coming any time soon, and just replaces the drones he's lost. In the end, seemingly no net gain for me. | ||
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Shaithis
United States383 Posts
[B] You'll find that microing the reaper often leaves you with a huge surplus of minerals and about 100~200 gas sometimes. Get your CC sometime before or during the harass. I find it efficient to leave an idle scv in a close spot and pressing F1 to build the cc. The better your multitasking, the better this build becomes. The primary objective of this aggression though, is to force a tech path or to scout what tech path he is going. I usually encounter mass lings or roaches, sometimes banelings but not very often. If your micro is leaving you with a huge mineral surplus, then you are not doing it right. Macro >>> micro; all that funky reaper antics will do you no good if the zerg has 20 more food than you in the end. One reaper will never force a tech path, as any master-level (and probably below) zerg is capable of dealing with a lone reaper with just queens and lings on creep. Rest of the post is solid, but I am still not sold on the early reaper in TvZ; I myself prefer 2 rax pressure on small maps, and hellion expand on big maps. | ||
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shifty
United States280 Posts
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10383 Posts
On a map like Xel'Naga, mech builds work really well (2 rax into expand and blue flame 5 hellions + 15-25 marines depending how many survived earlier, snipe third if he already has it and if not then add a combination of tanks/thors/rauders to help deal with roaches and mutas). Other than that, I always marine tank, adding a few Thors later in the game. It works really well. Move out with 4 tanks and ~30-50 marines each wave, unless your reinforce path is secured, in which you can just rally. A mostly mech composition is not countered by Roach/infestor. If you do damage with early BF Hellions, they have no units. If your hellions fail, good tank positioning and a slow push fucks up Roach infestor. If you're not caught with your pants down without detection or in bad positioning, you will roll through roach infestor. If the game progresses, when my 3rd starts to kick in, I add a fifth factory and two starports and crank vikings blindly. If Zerg has teched to BL, it works great. If not, Vikings dominate the map, shut down any magic box (four or five vikings plus 2ish thors do incredibly well against the same food in muta), serve as scouts and can kill stray overlords. This. Although I have only found this useful on Xel'Naga and to a lesser extent Metal. You know what other maps this works well on? And I'd also like to stress, a couple tanks shut down Infestors really really hard as long as you target fire them. | ||
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imBLIND
United States2626 Posts
On May 20 2011 06:21 Shaithis wrote: If your micro is leaving you with a huge mineral surplus, then you are not doing it right. Macro >>> micro; all that funky reaper antics will do you no good if the zerg has 20 more food than you in the end. One reaper will never force a tech path, as any master-level (and probably below) zerg is capable of dealing with a lone reaper with just queens and lings on creep. Rest of the post is solid, but I am still not sold on the early reaper in TvZ; I myself prefer 2 rax pressure on small maps, and hellion expand on big maps. The threat of the bunker rush and the mobility of the reaper is usually enough to compensate for the lack of power in the 2rax. It's very micro intensive, but you spend less resources on marines than you do on a single reaper and you get the same job mostly done compared to 4-6 marines. It also hits a little sooner than a 2rax because of how fast the reaper moves and due to the fact that you only need 1 reaper, as opposed to waiting for 4 marines to walk and move across the map. You usually get to harass him right as the 2nd hatch finishes or a little after if the map is bigger. Also, the reaper can be kept alive longer than 4 marines if you micro it properly, meaning you have a scout and a way to annoy his drone count for twice as long. The mineral surplus is also a good way to mass up raxes and factories; 400 mins is usually about 10 seconds of reaper harass, and 450 mins for 3 more raxes is also about 10 seconds of reaper harass. You're not going to be doing any heavy macroing on 1rax anyways =p. | ||
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