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On June 10 2011 02:23 Legion710 wrote:
I started playing terran, as I main toss, and I can easily beat zergs around 1200 master. Usually I just go for gasless FE into tanks and well upgraded marines. The key is to split your army well and a good turret positioning. When your marines are like 2-2 and you have thors and like 10 tanks, it's very hard for zerg to compete if you have been actively dropping and denying expansions. I'll upload replays later when I'm home.
EDIT: I forgot to say, as a Toss I find terran to be very fragile, and because of that you have to read your opponent very well with constant scouting. You never want to "test the waters" out of your base and be caught by an army you had no idea existed. If you want to do this the best way would be to slow push out with tanks, but I don't recommend it. A good idea is also to abuse early drop play since mutas come out after medivacs. Keep track of the spire progress and do good damage with drops. Speshal tectics.
This guy has it completely correct. There is no magic trick or totally gosu strategy to make you beat zergs at your skill level. The way you beat them is the same way you beat anyone of any race. Try to consistently throw them off their game with an early pressure, then force harassment to work throughout the game. Your army is very fragile, unless you have good positioning; make sure you have that good positioning. You dictate the pace of the game. Just be safe and macro up a strong marine/tank (with some scattered medivac and thor) and get good ups. Constantly try to deny expansions and make drops work. You can drop people even when Muta and Infestor are out.
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On June 10 2011 03:10 Iron_ wrote:
I think all of us T's have a hard time. I am also around 1000 master and yes its a hard matchup. One point I will make is that there is no way around taking big risks. If you watch MMA's play, many of those drops were very risky, and many of them got shot down. He looked very far behind many times and finally one of those drops killed 20 drones and a hatch, and he got back in it.
Basically, if you cant multitask very well and are not willing to take risks that can lose you the game, I dont think you can win. There is no "safe" TvZ, at least not one that can win the game.
This is kind of a misconception. It's not like he was blindly throwing those drops out there. The reason they were successful was because he forced them to work by feinting pushes with his main army to draw the zerg forces away and constantly denying scouting. It's a lot to do and it sure isn't easy, but its definitely possible and its definitely not as risky as people think.
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Well, instead of hearing Terran whine, here's a replay of me losing a TvZ despite getting an advantage early on. Once muta's pop I have no idea how to attack/ pressure Zerg effectively and it allows for him to drone and expand whilst getting upgrades and preparing for Hive tech. It also showcases me being unable to get a 4th base up leading to my death when my bases run dry.
- I'm thinking of taking my 4th at the center right next time (assuming me being top position) since it seems better suited for taking a forward position with my army.
-Also going to experiment with some earlier medivacs.
Any comments on how I could have closed out that game? It seems I could've gone for the throat after having killed his third with my marines, but I wasn't aware he had no baneling nest at all. Rather than taking a gamble by going for his natural without tanks, I decided to pull back since I felt I had an insurmountable advantage :/
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-213964.jpg)
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1rax Gasless FE (inbase)
-> 2 Gas
-> Harass with initial 5 marines
-> 2 Fact (1 reactor, 1 tech lab)
-> Hellions, Pre-Igniter
-> Move CC out as 4 hellions push out
-> Drop 2 eng bays/3-5 naked rax/1 tech lab factory (you want to get 3/3 inf upgrades ASAP)
-> Don't forget Stim/Combat Shield
-> Place turrets in anticipation of mutas
-> When mutas move out to your base, send your hellions in
-> Get Thors/Tanks, but stay marine heavy with some medivac/hellion (hellions for exploiting weaknesses)
-> If they go Infestor/Broodlord/Ultra, you need to be ready to pump ghosts and vikings.
-> Keep tabs on their expo timings/army position by scattering marines around the map.
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Here's what every single Zerg does right now in Masters+ (Im 1300+ atm)
They either sit there and drone 24/7 except RIGHT when a push is coming, they crush the push, and they're so ahead now that they pretty much won already. If you DON'T attack they keep droning, either way they end up at 60+ drones while you're barely at 30 scvs. Then they get Mutas out and harass you to death even though you already lost since you're sitting at 2 base with half the economy.
OR option 2 they decide to semi all-in with ling/bling off 2 base. If you don't have siege tanks with siege mode, and positioned well behind buildings, you automatically lose. If you do, you can usually get a few more units out and go attack them back, or try to secure a 3rd. Either way it's pretty even after that because even though they lose so much from the failed bling attack they still have their superior economy.
Timing pushes don't really work, 2 rax barely works anymore because everyone is so used to it.
Pretty much the only Zergs I beat now are ones that decide to not play as macro heavy as everyone else, IE they get less drones, less bases, and attack a lot more. These Zergs you basically just slowly starve out by getting a 3rd up with a PF and then killing a lot of their units when they make a bad attack and counterattack to win.
P.S.: Mutas make me rage really hard. Zergs are so bold now they just move their Muta flock over the Thors and kill them with minimal losses. Thors should counter mutas like Colossus counter Marines and other low hp units.. /rage
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Okay, i'll try to give you my point of view, i recently figured out the way to play TvZ. I'm diamond so i don't know if it will help you but here we go.
edit: Yeah i've seen pro doing it but it's different to know how to do it from figuring how to doing it. ( i shouldn't have watched so much pro cast because you think it's easy to make Siege tank and marine, if had worked on it on my own i would be much more advanced by now)
You have to be in their face, even if it doesn't do any damage, 75% of the time my reactored hellions do little to no damages but it force the zerg in a defensive mindset, before if i didn't do any damage i would think that i already lost the game. Then you have to make a strong push between 9 and 12 minutes it's an extremely important time because the zerg is either expanding again or teching hard to muta or infestor and you don't want to let them do it freely. the most important clic i had is the composition of the push. Now i bring 4/5 SCV and it change EVERYTHING because you can do so much with them: bunkers, turrets, repairing, soaking damages, getting vision, ... unless like your first agression, this time you have to cause damage and establish a strong position. So you have tanks barely hitting zerg from afar, meanwhile you have to keep your macro at a good level. 2 options opens to you Tech, like thor and weapon upgrade or expand in the way of your push, as many pro terran said you should take the gold more often as a third because it's in the way of the push. Back to you offensive position, you can lose it it's not a problem but it has to cost the zerg a shitload of stuff. most of the time the game end around 15-18 minutes but if the game go late game, go blindly for viking or ghost if you think you're awesome enough to micro them  , when you push do it extremely slowly, one by one.
i hope this wall of text will help you.
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General rules in tvz if you arent doing one of the following things at all points in the game:
1. expanding
2. pressuring
3. attacking
4. dropping/marine harrass
5. upgrading
You are going to lose
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Ever since GSL's around february, I've been saying "I can't believe how powerful mutas actually are" - the nature of their attack, with its bouncing damage becomes exponentially more powerful in a large group, and the larvae mechanic is highly synergistic in creating that "muta ball" - It's gotten to the point that I think the muta ball is the main thing causing problems for Terrans. Turrets are eaten up unless you seriously over commit to them, marines have to be present in MASS numbers with medivac support to be effective, and when magic boxing, even thors are no longer a counter.
Countering the mutas nullifies a large amount of the zerg's ability to harass, re-enables drop play until the muta ball can get back together, protects your valuable mech units - it's really just instrumental to the ability of terran to safely play out the midgame. I think there's a lot of exploration to do in regards to ghosts in this role; snipe is a skill that has a lot of possibility if you've got the micro for it (3 hit kills a muta) and the standard attack alone is twice the DPS of a marine. I don't have SCII on this computer, or I'd load up a unit tester and see how well both snipe, and regular attacks do in defending muta harass.
The ghost is still useful in a switch to infestor tech with emp; if it goes late game, cloaked ghosts are definitely viable harass units as they do just a BIT less than banshees to a drone line, and are definitely more versatile.
Zerg have gotten good at handling terran aggression, I think it's time for terran to start exploring more avenues for defending against the zerg.
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I was in this same situation earlier and just started doing the TLO 6rax all in and have since not lost a game. even if they fend it off you are always up in harvesters. With good marine micro you can beat pretty much everything from the zerg except mass spine crawlers, which you can then expand and transition because if you maintain SCV production you will come out ahead in harvesters
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Let's start off by saying no it is not impossible to beat zerg late game.
I'm not sure how long you have been playing or following so bear with me here. Recall the patch that made supply depot before barracks required. Terrans were screaming imba because zergs got a free hatch first and dominated the mid game from there on. Terrans still had reactor hellion and reaper expands available but still felt helpless before the zerg might. Fast forward a couple weeks and 2 rax was popularized. Another month and every terran knew how to micro marines vs banelings. Now think of the current TvZ matchup. Are reactor hellion and reaper expand obsolete because of hatch first? No because they still fare decently against the hatch first build. It was the terrans that were not understanding midgame and not a fault in build orders. Now the question is why exactly were the terrans losing in these midgame situations? Experience. Zergs favored safe macro style and that was the growing trend. Zergs thrived in these midgame macro situations because they had been aiming for it every single game prior.
Alright so now let's replace PATCH with zergs learning to defend midgame timings. See where I am going with this? The last few months almost every zerg has been aiming to defend the midgame timing attack and close out in late game. Zergs have several times more experience in these late game situations and thus are currently ahead in the matchup at certain levels.
The next question is then why are these pro players having little success in TvZ? I should point out that korean Terrans are doing pretty darn well. The difference between your list of terrans and many koreans is mechanics. A ton of korean terrans (mvp, bomber, mkp, mma, etc.) were bw pros and thus have a certain skill set already established. This is not to say bw pros are above everyone else, but they do have a ton of late game macro experience. Now using TLO as an example because I saw his games against Losira. He was using a midgame timing (3tank + marine + hellion) that was popular 3 or 4 months ago. It is kind of outdated at the highest levels and Losira showed him what was up. Even if he abandoned his timing rush, Losira had an immense amount more experience in these macro games and would almost certainly dominate until TLO can bring up his all around game more.
Considering a more all-in style is the worst way to go about winning. All-ining for the quick win now will put you in a worse spot in another months time. Now this has been the trend ever since the game was released. Timing rush players succeed because defensive play take longer to develop. As time goes on the number of players that can defend these timings increase and the rushers start to lose more. Your best choice then is to start learning macro style. Now macro style requires experience as stated in the first 2 paragraphs. I can't give you a quick fix for winning right now because there isn't any. This is where mimicking pros really comes into play because they have set macro styles down. Even then you need to grind out mechanics.
As for your last statement, I can't teach you how to tvz. You aren't even asking the right questions. However, Bomber can teach you, mma and mkp can as well. You have no idea how valuable those MLG replays of MMA are. VOD databases have all the info you need. MMA is smashing zergs well above the ones you are playing. Now it's your job to learn the methods and execution.
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On May 20 2011 04:52 eXwOn wrote:Show nested quote +From my perspective what currently happens is that it is impossible to lategame win vs a Zerg ? Can someone confirm , deny please? It is not impossible no. My second best MU is TvZ, right after TvP: When do I put pressure? 5:00(hellion) - 7:00 (thor-medivac-marine) - 9:30 (thor tank medivac hellions) 13:30 (thor maine hellion tank banshee marauder medivac), and I do drops whenever he is aggressive. When do I expo? 7:30-13:30-whenever feels right You need to learn to effectively sim city across the entire map, here's a screenshot of one of my latest games in a TvZ ![[image loading]](http://oi54.tinypic.com/2h5uqa9.jpg) I'm not going to write out my build, because it's very long and tedious; but I open with a 1-1-1 fast thor expo into mech& harassment. Don't sting on the turrets. If he gets allot of mutas out even up to five turrets is worth it, if it saves you 10 workers. I'm a big promoter of an even unit composition. So mine generally is: Thor, marine, tank, ghost, medivac, banshee, hellion (and sometimes vikings). Marine tank is a good for your main army; but later game you're going to need to have thors in there. By pushing with your thors first with marines a bit behind infestors have a hard time getting fungals. And Thors really make positioning of your marines much more forgiving against mutalisks. Show nested quote +How effective it is to have really fast medivacs and by that i mean so that you can dualdrop before 12 minutes? Well 12 minutes for medivacs is extremely late. The two big timings for medivacs that I can think of is at 7:00 (fastest), and 9:30 (relatively fast after expo). Fast drops are extremely effective. For my barracks, absolutely zero reactors, with one tech lab for upgrades. Every additional barracks can be used for walling in and improving your sim city. All my factories/starports have reactors and techlabs, which is a given. Best of luck.
yea lol 2 thors make a world of difference...i typically stop thors once they have infestor tech...i'm very aggro with them... they just won't die lol and scare Z from making mutas...(even if muta does i'll own lol with this) yep don't skimp on the turrets
btw 1 rax bunker pressure into fast thor completely owns make sure you don't lose any marines though
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It really doesnt seem that any terran unit composition can counter ling/infestor/corruptor/broodlord.
However I think I know how they could very easily "fix it" in the next patch. If they just increase the ghost snipe range they could actually reach the broodlords and maybe kill some infestors before the whole terran army is fungaled. This would only affect the TvZ matchup since snipe suck in TvP and TvT.
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I truely do hate doing this, but it fits so well with all the anti zerg rage.
Show nested quote +On June 07 2011 18:49 SKaREO wrote:
Sounds interesting. I don't usually use banshees after the hellions in fear that they might go for a flock of mutas. While marines and hellions do a great job against mutas, they have a tough time when zerg masses roaches and infestors in response. I am still very interested to see the strat in action. Thanks Jeffrey! My man. Good news! If you control the elevator drop well, the zerg CANNOT even get fast mutas out without losing his entire econ by the time the 2 cloakshees hit. 75% of the time, the spire is already down when I elevator, and finished when I banshee hit. That still gives you enough notice to know. Hell, the elevator drop alone is so invasive and cruel you see just about everything. Pending your control, you can almost always get 1-2 OLs, lots of lings, 5-15 drones, and a queen. I've gotten whole main bases off mid-high master zergs with 10 marines and 4 hellions (was late on drop) However, as a preface -- THIS IS A TIMING PUSH! It is meant to hit at a specific time, due to the zerg mechanics, it is unusually strong if they open and stay lings, as opposed to switching to roaches before/after the expo. Waiting will only make the return almost nothing. That being said, I'm going to copy and paste a BO I posted a while ago in a similar thread, with some replays (old) and I'll unedit in the new ones. + Show Spoiler +On May 29 2011 17:09 Kornholi0 wrote:
Not always, personally when I see banshees I (already have 2 evos up for upgrades and lair on the way most of the time) will throw down either a spore between bases (metalopolis etc etc) or one at either base which helps with drops later cause you can throw down 2 spines and pretty much be drop proof.
Banshees are only good in TvZ if the zerg is completely caught off gaurd. Even then good zergs can maintain calm and deal with it (if they haven't started a lair yet they are fucked or any evo chambers basically)
So you can either play based on hope with cloak banshees, or you can use un cloacked banshees to give map control. Stop posting here. Seriously. I'm playing 1150-1300 master zergs, and it's VERY rare for them to be prepared. If they are? They wasted too much money and can't handle the elevator and the banshees keep creep down and 3rd delayed. Good players make Roaches to nullify your harass unless they leave themselves open for a short time and you find that opportunity and exploit it. Once the Roaches come out, Blue Flame Hellions are a waste of money. If you keep going for them, Speed Roaches will kill you because you're wasting your money on units that can't defend Roaches even remotely efficiently. You get Marauder, he gets Muta, you lose. You get Thor, you can't really afford much else, and he simply kills you with numbers. Hellions are REALLY good as long as you know the timings where you can effectively use them (so you don't overcommit your spending on them instead of more important units).
lol good players make roaches. True, what's funny is.. I ass rape roach transitions after they see hellions and already take their nat. They don't have the tech to stop cloakshee fast enough, and mobility is gone as I still have map control. They have to come up with an overseer, spire, and evo chambers for spores as I just have to dodge slow ass fucking roaches. Editting with build order and replays. Lame. Gamerreplays ain't working right now. Got one up. I got at least 7 total just from this last ladder session to upload. FUCK still not working. I will re-edit with the rest of the replays when it starts to work. It's very effective opening. Using the BO I used vs a 1260 master Z, a bit off but never blocked and constant production. I snuck an early tank in, to stop any roach aggression as we were close position 10 supply 12 rax -> constant marine production 13 gas 15 OC -> constant SCV no cuts 16 supply 19 fac -> tech lab immediately 21 gas (do not let zerg steal gas. You'll see me take it and stop making it all the time to keep them from it) 23 supply 26 starport 26 supply 30 start blue flame 30 hellion -> constant hellion production 35 medic starts 37 depot 43 tech lab on starport (depends on macro here) 48 CC in base 48 banshee starts 49 cloak starts Poke out with first 7 marines and 1 hellion, rally to them. DO NOT LOSE THEM Due to the timing of it, you have 8-9 marines, 3-4 hellions and the medic once it pops. Perfect numbers. Drop 8 marines on cliff, do not rush them in. Kill any spotting OL and keep near the edge. When slings come in (if they do) low ground blue flames rape them. They back off -- lift 3-4 hellions up. I box 2 hellions off and go straight for mineral line pending no immediate sling reaction. Those 2 can easily kill 5-10 drones, easy. Once they come in, pull back and fight. If you see yourself losing the battle, lift the 2-3 hellions and drop them at the nat and focus fire down any queens with your marines ( fuck up inject cycles + make banshees much dirtier) ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-211685.jpg) vs 1170 master EU zerg vs eu zerg http://www.sc2rep.com/replays/download?id=8988vs na zerg http://www.sc2rep.com/replays/download?id=8985vs na zerg http://www.sc2rep.com/replays/download?id=8984vs na zerg http://www.sc2rep.com/replays/download?id=8983vs 1260 na zerg http://www.sc2rep.com/replays/download?id=8982vs na zerg http://www.sc2rep.com/replays/download?id=8981Can't get game replays too work. All zergs over 1.1k masters on NA/EU cept henralisk my prac partner. He's new to sc2. 58-30 masters 900 pt Newer replays ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-213607.jpg) vs 1450 at the time, 1250 master Znow ( o_O) ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-213608.jpg) bad map for it, but vs 1360 master zerg (did it anyways) ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-213609.jpg) against a good practicepartner/friend, master 1400 Z ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-213610.jpg) vs1150 on EU master zerg ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-213611.jpg) vs1150 EU master zerg ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-213612.jpg) vs 1209 EU master zerg (apparently all I drew was shattered that session lol) ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-213613.jpg) vs 1350 EU master Z Okay, that's all I got for now. I hope it helps, and the replays help if you watch em. If you have any questions just ask I'll explain anything
It's a simple 1-1-1 that just hits so well, and clean. Can go 4-1-1 after, or 3-2-1 and do a massive marine tank push.
And to people not knowing what to do when mutas pop... attack! Keep him from harassing, keep him at his base.
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this is the 'wildest' build i use
i usually go 1 rax fast expand on almost every map
- standard 1-1-1
- get a viking out and try to snipe ovys around ur base
- hellions first out of factory get pre igniter ASAP.
- tech lab on barrack and ghost academy----research cloak ASAP
- now u have to choose to expo to your third or getting more tanks or even thors to defend against whatever roaches or mutas
-after getting a good read of his build u know decide to build 2-3 more factories if hes going for roaches or a reactored rax if hes going for mutas (your choice)
get ur third if u feel safe
- never stop harrasing with blue flames hellions and try to snipe tumors with scans all the time
-by that time u should have at least 2-3 ghost with cloak up and a lot on energy on em.
- go for expos and nuke em all day with cloak on. it is vital to have at least 2 other ghosts to protect the one nuking from coming overseers so they can snipe em
- if the hellions harrased him a lot he shouldnt be able to keep up
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On June 10 2011 02:53 v1n1z1o wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 02:40 lorkac wrote:
It's easy. Combine Nada's macro, Marinekingprime's micro, MVP's starsense, and MMA's multitasking and you can easily beat any Zerg you face. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Flash Incoming???? 
(Flash - wrist problems) + zerg misclick = "all" you've got to do to win
In seriousness though, the matchup is only hard because it is so balanced. Both Zerg *and* Terran are having a ridiculously hard time with the matchup. That's kind of awesome to me. Some games Zerg seem unstoppable. Other games, Zerg loses to 4 Hellions.
Some games are SC v Losira/Nestea on terminus.
Other games are Nestea v SC/Top on Crossfire.
Zerg seem OP when Zergling, Muta, Bane, Roach, Infestor, Ultra, Broodlord gets used well.
Terran seem unstoppable when Marine Micro, Siege Tank traps, Medivac Drops, Hellion Harass and Thor timing pushes happen.
It's a wonderfully beautiful match to watch, awful to play. Reminds me of pre-rocks desert Oasis
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You want to know how to play TvZ?
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=214034
Especially on maps like Tal, Shakuras, back water etc etc. Siege up in a place he can't get (without it being hard for him anyways). Leave a couple siege tanks with marines (closer to when you are maxed), then instead of holding a line just go constant harass at every point, it isn't that hard to a-move marines and stim them before they get to someones base. Just rinse and repeat over and over again, as long as you have that constant pressure at his main or natural he cannot fully committ to securing his third, if he does that you punish his natural. Because of mass marine style most zergs wouldn't go mutalisk, if they do they lose too much to your mineral heavy marines.
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Hope i'm not too late, but THIS BUILD has helped me immensely in my TvZ. I'm not going to include some replays, but MMA did this 1rax FE nearly every game. It is a very safe, macro oriented build with many options for harass and a strong 2 base push. I really recommend doing something like this, and i'm not just "jumping on the bandwagon" so to speak since MMA has been using it. This build has been around for quite some time. IMO it is simply an incredibly straightforward way to play that allows for plenty of adaptation to various playstyles.
GLHF
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+ Show Spoiler +On May 20 2011 04:09 Rano wrote:
I am just curious how to do it atm as a Terran?
I have tryd everything I could and I always come to the conclusion he has to be dead before his 3rd ...
I am following TLO struggle vs Z , Hashe struggle and Kawaiirice struggle, QXC struggle - thats it about the active streamers
So tellme, what do you do? What build do you play? What is your first attack exactly ? When do you push around , how many bases do you have and how many does he? What is your army composition ?
I really need advice BADLY , I am going mad, I dont want to really quit SC2 because of not finding a way to beat non-brainless Zergs T_T
And I need the experience from master league players who win Zergs with more than 60% please, thanks guys
BTW is there anyone here who considers TVZ his strongest matchup?
and before you start reading, all I can say is "HERE COME THE MUTAS"
From my perspective what currently happens is that it is impossible to lategame win vs a Zerg ? Can someone confirm , deny please? ( Brood Loard Corrupter etc etc etc)
If you go mass factory units they will hardcounter you with Roach Infestor
( Idra also meant it has also too many weaknesses and i think most of us terrans feel the same no? )
Nodody 3 raxxes a zerg
Helion into Banshee play ? Most Zergs adapted
2 Raxx Expand builds ? what time do you push out ?
1 Raxx Expand builds ? what time do you push out?
Blue Flame Builds? ? i guess most zerg adapted and can get roaches in time without falling behind ..
How good would it be to get a 2 base marine marauder medivac combination and push out ? when do you push in that case ?
How effective it is to have really fast medivacs and by that i mean so that you can dualdrop before 12 minutes?
so it will be Marine / Siegetank/ Medivac
vs either Roach Ling Infestor or vs Ling Bling Muta
if you trade 1:1 vs the Roach Ling Infestor build i see most highlvl terrans having even games and the trades seem fair
but what if you trade vs Zergling Bling Muta ?
the problem is that you have to have your marines survive all the time and be enough to defeat a muta force anytime - YOU CANNOT LOSE TOO MANY TANKS
and you have to win the first push for the zerg an punish his economy or you lose
he will outbase you?
so what do you do ?
What is ure Build, what are youre timings ? How many techlabs etc reactors for timing attacks?
Or : Do you all in ?
I see the problem in unequal trades somehow and mutas rewarding with mapcontroll and massexpand
Please teach me how to TVZ :&
 I just wrote a huge reply to you and lost it all >.<
The gist of what I was going to say is. You don't actually need to kill workers to keep the zergs eco under control. If you focus on getting a third started around the 12 minute mark. When I play T I do a 1 or 2 rax cc and use my first 5 marines to shark around and force the zerg to make defensive units in the early game (at this point the terran will still be ahead in eco); You don't even have to kill drones, just slow his drone production (generally they will either make 10 or so lings or a 1-2 spine crawlers). Then set up your expo with 2 bunkers and push at the 10 minute mark with 3 tanks and 19(- ?/5 that you lost with sharking).
Some important semi-solid timings. zerg reaches 2 base sat (for z that's 16 + 3(gas) or 44) at about 8 minutes if you don't mess with them at all. This is the point when droning is going to kill you, you need to prevent the zerg from droning after 2 base light saturation and the way to do that is to show your hand/push out around 9:30 or 10 minutes. If the Zerg has been greedy and was getting his third while getting more than the 44 drones then you could potentially do a lot of damage to them at that time, if you prevent them from droning to 60 (which they will by the time you have 35 workers+ mules, you will be crushed). then you will be able to stay in the game eco wise (w/ getting a third ofc).
One huge problems that I see soooo many terran players make is that they stay on 2 bases for too long. I know that you can get 200 w/ ups fairly effectively on 2 base. but trying to compete with a 4 base z on 2 base is silly, you should lose every time. Getting a third at a reasonable time (12-14 minutes, leaning on 12) is crucial. If your build doesn't allow for constant worker production and unit production plus the ability to be changed based off of what your opponent is doing then it is a bad build.
Plan your game around that third base and the 10 minute mark harass or else you are going to be stomped more than you would like. As a side note... looking for terran players that have a 60% w/l ratio is silly... You might find 1 dude that kicks total ass vs 1 race but sucks at the other 2 but generally he will be placed on the ladder versus opponents that are 50/50; I think what you meant to ask for was someone that has a 60% or better w/l ratio vs your level of masters play (hint: they get payed for the questions you are asking).
Anyways. I hoped this helped... It was a lot better 10 minutes ago but w/e that's life.
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On June 10 2011 05:06 0c3LoT wrote:
1rax Gasless FE (inbase)
-> 2 Gas
-> Harass with initial 5 marines
-> 2 Fact (1 reactor, 1 tech lab)
-> Hellions, Pre-Igniter
-> Move CC out as 4 hellions push out
-> Drop 2 eng bays/3-5 naked rax/1 tech lab factory (you want to get 3/3 inf upgrades ASAP)
-> Don't forget Stim/Combat Shield
-> Place turrets in anticipation of mutas
-> When mutas move out to your base, send your hellions in
-> Get Thors/Tanks, but stay marine heavy with some medivac/hellion (hellions for exploiting weaknesses)
-> If they go Infestor/Broodlord/Ultra, you need to be ready to pump ghosts and vikings.
-> Keep tabs on their expo timings/army position by scattering marines around the map.
This build is extremely close to what I do. Instead of
-> 2 Fact (1 reactor, 1 tech lab)
-> Hellions, Pre-Igniter
-> Move CC out as 4 hellions push out
I do
-> 2nd rax (1 reactor, 1 tech getting stim)
-> 2 Fact w/ tech
-> Siege mode
-> build 1 tank while second fact/it's tech lab is being produced and then 2 more tanks
-> push out at 10 minutes with 3 tanks and 15-20 marines (difference is in how many you lose with your 5 marine harass)
-> I get my rax slowly as my scv count rises, I find w/ good micro I can't afford more rax/marines than 3 marines + 2 tanks + ups
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On June 10 2011 07:03 Scila wrote:
Here's what every single Zerg does right now in Masters+ (Im 1300+ atm)
They either sit there and drone 24/7 except RIGHT when a push is coming, they crush the push, and they're so ahead now that they pretty much won already. If you DON'T attack they keep droning, either way they end up at 60+ drones while you're barely at 30 scvs. Then they get Mutas out and harass you to death even though you already lost since you're sitting at 2 base with half the economy.
OR option 2 they decide to semi all-in with ling/bling off 2 base. If you don't have siege tanks with siege mode, and positioned well behind buildings, you automatically lose. If you do, you can usually get a few more units out and go attack them back, or try to secure a 3rd. Either way it's pretty even after that because even though they lose so much from the failed bling attack they still have their superior economy.
Timing pushes don't really work, 2 rax barely works anymore because everyone is so used to it.
Pretty much the only Zergs I beat now are ones that decide to not play as macro heavy as everyone else, IE they get less drones, less bases, and attack a lot more. These Zergs you basically just slowly starve out by getting a 3rd up with a PF and then killing a lot of their units when they make a bad attack and counterattack to win.
P.S.: Mutas make me rage really hard. Zergs are so bold now they just move their Muta flock over the Thors and kill them with minimal losses. Thors should counter mutas like Colossus counter Marines and other low hp units.. /rage
Either you are getting your second CC too late or you aren't producing your scvs constantly. Either way, this is all you man. When you do your first actual push (10 minutes or so) you should have 2 rax (ie 2 mules) and 35+ scvs. If your opponent got 60 drones at that time and still killed your entire push then you are doing something wrong there (possibly forgetting the E button on siege tanks). That includes being too slow on your push. A 3 minute march across the map will do more to you than the banelings you run into at the end of your horrific march.
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EPT
