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The past month or so I've been 1 base all in-ing TvZ with some pretty heady sucess, SC2 Gears says my TvZ is around 85% over that period. But it's getting really, really boring. But then again playing standard vs zerg is much, much harder than either of the two match ups. You have to be much better than the zerg to beat him.
15/16 OC Opening
1-1-1
Reactor on barracks after factory and second refinery started.
Swap reactor with factory and pump out 2 hellions, there are your map control. (build tech lab with barracks, get stim soon-ish, don't let it screw up your viknigs though)
On maps with open naturals, metal, XNC, Backwater, I build 2 more hellions and harass with the 4, careful not to lose any
On maps with closed naturals I get 4 vikings ASAP and snipe overlords, if the zerg isn't keeping up with his army I can land and snipe queens and/or drones.
After first 2 vikings are out I plop down 2 more naked barracks and build marines
around 14 minutes I push out with SCVs, marines, maruaders (if I scout roach) about 6 vikings, 2 medivacs, and a handful of hellions (more if I scout banelings)
Crushes a lot of zergs pretty hard, gotta be careful around infestor but it's microable.
Looking at replays to avoid my loveable cheesiness.
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On June 10 2011 04:13 Saechiis wrote:Well, instead of hearing Terran whine, here's a replay of me losing a TvZ despite getting an advantage early on. Once muta's pop I have no idea how to attack/ pressure Zerg effectively and it allows for him to drone and expand whilst getting upgrades and preparing for Hive tech. It also showcases me being unable to get a 4th base up leading to my death when my bases run dry. - I'm thinking of taking my 4th at the center right next time (assuming me being top position) since it seems better suited for taking a forward position with my army. -Also going to experiment with some earlier medivacs. Any comments on how I could have closed out that game? It seems I could've gone for the throat after having killed his third with my marines, but I wasn't aware he had no baneling nest at all. Rather than taking a gamble by going for his natural without tanks, I decided to pull back since I felt I had an insurmountable advantage :/ ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-213964.jpg)
You lost because of your composition. I was watching that entire game and up until the point where you started producing mass thors w/out the siege tanks I was seriously wondering how the hell you were going to lose. you were up on workers the entire game. Even after his attack on your third you had 3 orbitals and more workers than your opponent and kept a 30-50 food advantage for most of the game. In the end you stopped tank production for thors AND you started queing up factory units (which is horrible play but not the main reason why you lost). If you had kept to tank/marine production with possibly adding in marauders and/or ghosts at the late stage you should have walked over him. The problem was that thors eat the shit sandwich that is Lings and ultras provided the backbone that was needed to engage there.
To close out that game you should have kept producing the cheaper and more effective tanks instead of thors and kept him from getting his fourth/third easily. Part of this plan that you didn't do was the pf at ur gold (to hold his backstabs) and your staging point was too far back. staging at the eastern control tower to push in on the gold/right base and the encaved third would have been much better.
- I'm thinking of taking my 4th at the center right next time (assuming me being top position) since it seems better suited for taking a forward position with my army.
taking a fourth at the encaved base (the spot that the zerg took as his third) would have been fine. You can deny and use the tower near the center right base as a staging point and starve him out harder that way.
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On May 20 2011 04:09 Rano wrote:
I am just curious how to do it atm as a Terran?
I have tryd everything I could and I always come to the conclusion he has to be dead before his 3rd ...
I am following TLO struggle vs Z , Hashe struggle and Kawaiirice struggle, QXC struggle - thats it about the active streamers
So tellme, what do you do? What build do you play? What is your first attack exactly ? When do you push around , how many bases do you have and how many does he? What is your army composition ?
I really need advice BADLY , I am going mad, I dont want to really quit SC2 because of not finding a way to beat non-brainless Zergs T_T
And I need the experience from master league players who win Zergs with more than 60% please, thanks guys
BTW is there anyone here who considers TVZ his strongest matchup?
and before you start reading, all I can say is "HERE COME THE MUTAS"
From my perspective what currently happens is that it is impossible to lategame win vs a Zerg ? Can someone confirm , deny please? ( Brood Loard Corrupter etc etc etc)
If you go mass factory units they will hardcounter you with Roach Infestor
( Idra also meant it has also too many weaknesses and i think most of us terrans feel the same no? )
Nodody 3 raxxes a zerg
Helion into Banshee play ? Most Zergs adapted
2 Raxx Expand builds ? what time do you push out ?
1 Raxx Expand builds ? what time do you push out?
Blue Flame Builds? ? i guess most zerg adapted and can get roaches in time without falling behind ..
How good would it be to get a 2 base marine marauder medivac combination and push out ? when do you push in that case ?
How effective it is to have really fast medivacs and by that i mean so that you can dualdrop before 12 minutes?
so it will be Marine / Siegetank/ Medivac
vs either Roach Ling Infestor or vs Ling Bling Muta
if you trade 1:1 vs the Roach Ling Infestor build i see most highlvl terrans having even games and the trades seem fair
but what if you trade vs Zergling Bling Muta ?
the problem is that you have to have your marines survive all the time and be enough to defeat a muta force anytime - YOU CANNOT LOSE TOO MANY TANKS
and you have to win the first push for the zerg an punish his economy or you lose
he will outbase you?
so what do you do ?
What is ure Build, what are youre timings ? How many techlabs etc reactors for timing attacks?
Or : Do you all in ?
I see the problem in unequal trades somehow and mutas rewarding with mapcontroll and massexpand
Please teach me how to TVZ :&
As I see it now, unless you're playing against a Korean Zerg, it's not that bad. The reason people have trouble in TvZ is because Zerg will usually be on a better economy and once they go into unit spam mode, it's tough to macro up units fast enough to keep up.
What's the solution? Don't let them severely beat you out in economy. Centering your game around this goal makes the matchup far more winnable. And since Terran doesn't have the mobility to drop a bunch of expansions (aside from on Terminus RE), your only option is to reduce your opponent's economy. MMA does this by relentless doing double drops on his opponents. If his opponent's army arrives, he picks the Marines up, moves away and ques up move commands to have the Medivac drop on the same mineral line from another angle maybe 10-20 seconds later.
The only problem with using drops is the chance of your opponent killing them with Mutalisks (otherwise let the Zerg feel the pain all day). The instant your drop is scouted by an Overlord, it is likely to die unless you run home and get there before the Mutalisks arrive. There are 2 things you can do to respond to this. Getting out a single Viking to snipe Overlords around your base and in the drop path will clear the way for later drops and maybe get the Zerg to pull back some of his Overlords, giving you more room to maneuver unseen. The other thing is to treat drops similarly to how Zerglings and Mutalisk are treated - as a counterattack. If you just had a battle, are on the brink of a battle, or are in the middle of a battle, you know where your opponent's units are, most importantly you know the location of his Mutalisks (the same goes for when he's harassing you with them). Well if they aren't near your dropships, you are free to do damage to his economy. The only thing he can use to stop your drops are Hydralisks, Mutalisks, Queens, Corruptors, Infestors, or a well placed combination of Spore Crawlers and/or Spine Crawlers. Hydras are almost never used, the DPS of Queens isn't really enough if you just micro your dropship, and Corruptors aren't really worth it when you can get Mutas instead UNTIL he's ready for the Broodlord transition. He won't want to show you the Corruptors anyway if he doesn't have to unless you already know Broodlords are coming. If he goes Infestors, he wouldn't be going Mutas (and visa versa), and you prefer Infestors anyway. And finally, Spore Crawlers and Spine Crawlers cost a drone and 100 minerals each... If you force them, that is economic damage. If you force them in the numbers that he needs to really defend the drops easily, you've done a LOT of economic damage.
One thing you don't want is for them to get 20+ Mutas. Once that happens, the harass is almost the same as dropping 12 flying Marauders in your base. The issue with Mutas is that they're weak as a combat units. If they go early Mutas, punish them with an early Marine and Tank push. The only thing they will have to defend is a handful of Banelings and Zerglings, if that. The Marines easily handle Zerglings and Mutalisks unless they VASTLY outnumber you, which shouldn't happen as they would've spent most of their Larvae on Drones early on or else risk not having a good economy (in which case it's easy to win as long as you hold off whatever all in they are preparing). In that case, I would gladly trade all my Tanks for all of their Banelings if it means all my Marines survive (or a damn large chunk of it). The Marines easily handle the Zerglings (if you have enough Marines) and Mutalisks will be considered suicidal to go into the fight. You go to their undefended expansion, take it out, try to eek out whatever extra damage you can, then go home, maybe even dropping an expansion if you feel safe. By then you'll have extra Siege Tanks waiting at home for you to either do another push or defend your base. The idea is either to punish them for going early Mutas with a Marine/Tank push, or to punish them for getting late Mutas using unrestricted drops. Once Mutas come out though, your drop patterns need to be safer, using the obvious "if his army is THERE, it isn't HERE."
Late game Broodlords are very scary but it can easily be weakened just by not letting them get a ridiculous economy to support it and giving yourself time to get some Vikings out before they start actually morphing the Broodlords in.
Also, opening with a LOT of Blue Flame Hellions forces them to rely on Roaches instead of Zerglings as their main ground force. While this doesn't necessarily seem to mean a lot, Speed Roaches are a LOT slower than Speedlings, and the scariest thing about Zerg is their ability to run a crapload of units into an undefended base and run out before you can kill them. While Roaches ARE faster than your infantry units, they're easier to catch than Speedlings and they can't go from their base to yours and back nearly as quickly. Also, it's tough to kill large groups of Hellions with Mutalisks because they're so freakishly fast. But with the Roaches, you have to add in a sufficient amount of Marauders into your composition so you don't just straight up die to Roaches.
The way I see to play against Mutas is to get them to build other things by being active around the map and punishing them for the Muta's relatively weak combat stats (for it's cost) until they get critical mass (then you need to hope for a relatively even army trade and that you kept their economy low enough such that you don't die to the incoming remax attack). But yeah, if you screw up the first push, you're vastly behind because the push should come around the time they try to take their third base. If you don't do reasonable damage, you're very behind economically and that's the position you don't want to be in as you can play from a somewhat economically behind position (due to the cost effectiveness of your units), but if you spend like a few thousand minerals and several hundred gas on an army and it does next to nothing, you need to pray for a huge comeback through amazing macro, defense, and micro; or pray that he also makes a huge mistake, which does happen but I think trying to expand reasonably and defend while relying on your macro to save you is the only real option. If he gets greedy with his tech though, you might be able to punish him then.
Bottom line, do yourself a favor and start being as annoying as possible with drops. MMA beat DongRaeGu using drops and only engaging at favorable times. DongRaeGu must've killed at least a dozen full dropships with many of them doing less than minimal damage, but it's still a good thing to practice. Brat_OK beat a Zerg when he was way behind by literally dropping the entire map until the Zerg had no economy to support his tech and he got his own economy back on track. The only way to play TvZ nowadays is to drop, drop often, and drop smartly.
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On June 10 2011 04:13 Saechiis wrote:Well, instead of hearing Terran whine, here's a replay of me losing a TvZ despite getting an advantage early on. Once muta's pop I have no idea how to attack/ pressure Zerg effectively and it allows for him to drone and expand whilst getting upgrades and preparing for Hive tech. It also showcases me being unable to get a 4th base up leading to my death when my bases run dry. - I'm thinking of taking my 4th at the center right next time (assuming me being top position) since it seems better suited for taking a forward position with my army. -Also going to experiment with some earlier medivacs. Any comments on how I could have closed out that game? It seems I could've gone for the throat after having killed his third with my marines, but I wasn't aware he had no baneling nest at all. Rather than taking a gamble by going for his natural without tanks, I decided to pull back since I felt I had an insurmountable advantage :/
The biggest thing I noticed in this game is a total lack of multitasking ability as well as a lack of response time. Early on, you were macroing MUCH better than your opponent. You had a GIANT timing early on to win. Even after losing your army in the first battle, you were way ahead. After macroing up a bit, you STILL had a timing to go and kill him. However, your units were scattered all over the place, and you never grouped them up. You basically kept fighting with only a third of your army versus his entire army. If you pulled ALL your units and pushed him, you would've won easily. Your issue is simply that you don't attack, you don't keep track of your units, and your unit composition. To be honest, you never really need Thors. If they magic box the Mutas, the real damage dealers will go back to being the Marines (which will demolish magic box Mutas).
If you insist on using small groups of forces throughout most of the game, HOTKEY ALL OF THEM. It's better than having like 50 food worth of idle army that could either be reinforcing the main army or doing some sort of counterattack.
One thing I always do is spend a scan on his main and natural to look for a Baneling Nest (and Lair/Spire timing). That's why good Zergs insist on hiding their Spire somewhere outside that area using Overlord creep or Creep Tumors. Or you can scan the front of his base where all of his units are likely to be. If you see no Banelings (and they WILL morph them prematurely to be safe because nothing is worse than being pushed by Tanks and Marines without Banelings already done). If you're afraid of Banelings, get earlier Siege Tanks. You dropped your first Factory at like the 9 minute mark. I do 4 Barracks into Factory into Starport. No real need for double Factory early on as Medivacs are more important to abuse the timing where he won't have Mutas as well as just freakin' amazing units.
Also, you took the 4th at the right place, but the 3rd needed to be a Planetary Fortress (as well as the 4th). As Terran, you want your bases as close as possible because Zerg has more mobility over you. The reason the gold base is so good on that map is because it's both close to your natural AND it's a forward expansion you can use as a safe point.
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When i played Protoss, it was the easyiest thing to just go 3 gate robo -> expand and attack at the same time with 1-2 immortals , most zergs were dead imediately. if you could find something similar to this for terran, you could beat zerg.
The only way i found since i play terran now is early banshee harrass, cause banshees fend off his banelings or roaches or the rest he has in the early game ;D
greetings from Germany 
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On May 20 2011 09:11 WinteRR wrote:
I'm pretty sure to kill one Broodlord from one ghost you need 12 snipes? I Somehow don't think thats the most efficient way to deal with them. Not even going to consider ultras (EMP is obviously great for infestors though).
Atm, I think the best way to win is to harass early, get to 2 bases quickly, then do everything in your power to stop the Z getting their 3rd up. Its when they get a 3 base economy things start to go downhill, fast.
I've rarely seen any top T's go for pure mech vs Z since the new patch, infestors just hard-counter it perfectly whilst not even considering NP (which is amazing). The best way to go is for marine/tank/medivac with 1-2 thor support for mutas.
It takes 5 shots to kill a brolord (225/45) and it is 25 energy plus you can que it up to be practically instant. w/ instant que you can 2 shot infesters. it takes 12 snipes to take out an ultra.
Also, the only reason why that 3 base eco ruins you is because of the timing on your third base. If you push out at 10 minutes to deny their third and force them to stop drone production while getting your third up around 12 minute mark then you should be fine against 3 base Z. Staying on 2 bases for too long is what is killing terran players.
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On June 10 2011 15:08 ixi.genocide wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 04:13 Saechiis wrote:Well, instead of hearing Terran whine, here's a replay of me losing a TvZ despite getting an advantage early on. Once muta's pop I have no idea how to attack/ pressure Zerg effectively and it allows for him to drone and expand whilst getting upgrades and preparing for Hive tech. It also showcases me being unable to get a 4th base up leading to my death when my bases run dry. - I'm thinking of taking my 4th at the center right next time (assuming me being top position) since it seems better suited for taking a forward position with my army. -Also going to experiment with some earlier medivacs. Any comments on how I could have closed out that game? It seems I could've gone for the throat after having killed his third with my marines, but I wasn't aware he had no baneling nest at all. Rather than taking a gamble by going for his natural without tanks, I decided to pull back since I felt I had an insurmountable advantage :/ You lost because of your composition. I was watching that entire game and up until the point where you started producing mass thors w/out the siege tanks I was seriously wondering how the hell you were going to lose. you were up on workers the entire game. Even after his attack on your third you had 3 orbitals and more workers than your opponent and kept a 30-50 food advantage for most of the game. In the end you stopped tank production for thors AND you started queing up factory units (which is horrible play but not the main reason why you lost). If you had kept to tank/marine production with possibly adding in marauders and/or ghosts at the late stage you should have walked over him. The problem was that thors eat the shit sandwich that is Lings and ultras provided the backbone that was needed to engage there. To close out that game you should have kept producing the cheaper and more effective tanks instead of thors and kept him from getting his fourth/third easily. Part of this plan that you didn't do was the pf at ur gold (to hold his backstabs) and your staging point was too far back. staging at the eastern control tower to push in on the gold/right base and the encaved third would have been much better. Show nested quote +
- I'm thinking of taking my 4th at the center right next time (assuming me being top position) since it seems better suited for taking a forward position with my army.
taking a fourth at the encaved base (the spot that the zerg took as his third) would have been fine. You can deny and use the tower near the center right base as a staging point and starve him out harder that way.
Hey, thanks for your reply.
Regarding my composition, I do pure marine tank normally and fared very well with it until I met Zergs who were really good at keeping their muta's harassing and on the move. I just lost two games before this one to Zergs that flew their muta's through my turret line and just killed all my production while I was half way across the map leapfrogging my tanks and killing creep. I haven't really figured out what to do in such a situation.
Hence I chose to make Thors this game when I saw he was going heavy on the muta's. Haven't made my mind up about them yet, I feel like they're OK at keeping muta's from killing too much stuff but they really aren't a solid counter like phoenixes are. Might just make 2 next time to discourage Zerg from making more mutalisks, but they were definitely eating into my army's ability to engage in a straight up fight with his ultra, ling, baneling.
About the PF, I don't like to build a PF there since I feel I can defend an OC by walling that path off with Raxes and putting some Tanks and Turrets behind it. Didn't get to do it this game since he was all over my third from the get go and in retrospect it forced my army to be placed very defensively and unthreatening in regards to his additional bases. I don't like PF's in general as I'm trying to play a heavy macro style. I feel Terran play will eventually steer towards PF's at the 4th unless the third's completely out of the way.
Anyways, thanks for your pov. I'll experiment with getting less thors or rerouting their investment all together and putting it towards more tanks and medivacs. I think my main problem currently is positioning, which is really key when you have the immobile army. I guess I'll just have to endure the annoyingness of muta's and limit their damage by running a task force of rines around 
On June 10 2011 18:09 RyLai wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 04:13 Saechiis wrote:Well, instead of hearing Terran whine, here's a replay of me losing a TvZ despite getting an advantage early on. Once muta's pop I have no idea how to attack/ pressure Zerg effectively and it allows for him to drone and expand whilst getting upgrades and preparing for Hive tech. It also showcases me being unable to get a 4th base up leading to my death when my bases run dry. - I'm thinking of taking my 4th at the center right next time (assuming me being top position) since it seems better suited for taking a forward position with my army. -Also going to experiment with some earlier medivacs. Any comments on how I could have closed out that game? It seems I could've gone for the throat after having killed his third with my marines, but I wasn't aware he had no baneling nest at all. Rather than taking a gamble by going for his natural without tanks, I decided to pull back since I felt I had an insurmountable advantage :/ The biggest thing I noticed in this game is a total lack of multitasking ability as well as a lack of response time. Early on, you were macroing MUCH better than your opponent. You had a GIANT timing early on to win. Even after losing your army in the first battle, you were way ahead. After macroing up a bit, you STILL had a timing to go and kill him. However, your units were scattered all over the place, and you never grouped them up. You basically kept fighting with only a third of your army versus his entire army. If you pulled ALL your units and pushed him, you would've won easily. Your issue is simply that you don't attack, you don't keep track of your units, and your unit composition. To be honest, you never really need Thors. If they magic box the Mutas, the real damage dealers will go back to being the Marines (which will demolish magic box Mutas). If you insist on using small groups of forces throughout most of the game, HOTKEY ALL OF THEM. It's better than having like 50 food worth of idle army that could either be reinforcing the main army or doing some sort of counterattack. One thing I always do is spend a scan on his main and natural to look for a Baneling Nest (and Lair/Spire timing). That's why good Zergs insist on hiding their Spire somewhere outside that area using Overlord creep or Creep Tumors. Or you can scan the front of his base where all of his units are likely to be. If you see no Banelings (and they WILL morph them prematurely to be safe because nothing is worse than being pushed by Tanks and Marines without Banelings already done). If you're afraid of Banelings, get earlier Siege Tanks. You dropped your first Factory at like the 9 minute mark. I do 4 Barracks into Factory into Starport. No real need for double Factory early on as Medivacs are more important to abuse the timing where he won't have Mutas as well as just freakin' amazing units. Also, you took the 4th at the right place, but the 3rd needed to be a Planetary Fortress (as well as the 4th). As Terran, you want your bases as close as possible because Zerg has more mobility over you. The reason the gold base is so good on that map is because it's both close to your natural AND it's a forward expansion you can use as a safe point.
Thank you too for your reply.
Regarding my multitasking, I know it isn't progamer level, but then again, my opponent wasn't either. Maybe if you could point out a point were I really suffered from being too slow I might agree with you, but as far as I can tell my opponent wasn't faster than me and his mutalisk multitask never succeeded in doing much damage at all besides repair costs.
As far as spreading my units goes, I agree it's a problem, it mostly stems from mutalisk harass forcing me to be everywhere. Earlier losses against pure mutalisk runbys have made me wary lol. I think I'm going to dedicate a pack of marines to pure muta defence since my plan revolves on upgrading them well.
Hotkeys for spread groups isn't really going to happen unless I put all production on 1 hotkey, might think about adjusting but my mechanics aren't at a point where I can change whatever I desire. I feel I still have a ton to improve even with my current setup, so I'm just going to try and work on my army positioning and run marines around for mutalisks.
As far as Lair timing and tech path, I floated a Rax over his base at the 7 minute mark and saw he had just started his lair. it also triggered my pure marine attack on his third since I saw no baneling nest and his rocks still being up. My turrets were up in time as well and I didn't need early tanks since he didn't have a roach warren or baneling nest. So I don't really see how my play was flawed on that point, maybe there's a another reason?
Medivacs I'm going to play around with for a bit and see what happens 
Don't know about my fourth, it feels really vulnerable and out of the way, especially since you want to place your army at the tower towards your opponents 3rd and gold. Going to try to get that midlle expo on that side since my army will be there anyways, plus it's high ground and turrets there will also make my main harder to get to by air.
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On June 10 2011 23:11 Saechiis wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 15:08 ixi.genocide wrote:On June 10 2011 04:13 Saechiis wrote:Well, instead of hearing Terran whine, here's a replay of me losing a TvZ despite getting an advantage early on. Once muta's pop I have no idea how to attack/ pressure Zerg effectively and it allows for him to drone and expand whilst getting upgrades and preparing for Hive tech. It also showcases me being unable to get a 4th base up leading to my death when my bases run dry. - I'm thinking of taking my 4th at the center right next time (assuming me being top position) since it seems better suited for taking a forward position with my army. -Also going to experiment with some earlier medivacs. Any comments on how I could have closed out that game? It seems I could've gone for the throat after having killed his third with my marines, but I wasn't aware he had no baneling nest at all. Rather than taking a gamble by going for his natural without tanks, I decided to pull back since I felt I had an insurmountable advantage :/ You lost because of your composition. I was watching that entire game and up until the point where you started producing mass thors w/out the siege tanks I was seriously wondering how the hell you were going to lose. you were up on workers the entire game. Even after his attack on your third you had 3 orbitals and more workers than your opponent and kept a 30-50 food advantage for most of the game. In the end you stopped tank production for thors AND you started queing up factory units (which is horrible play but not the main reason why you lost). If you had kept to tank/marine production with possibly adding in marauders and/or ghosts at the late stage you should have walked over him. The problem was that thors eat the shit sandwich that is Lings and ultras provided the backbone that was needed to engage there. To close out that game you should have kept producing the cheaper and more effective tanks instead of thors and kept him from getting his fourth/third easily. Part of this plan that you didn't do was the pf at ur gold (to hold his backstabs) and your staging point was too far back. staging at the eastern control tower to push in on the gold/right base and the encaved third would have been much better.
- I'm thinking of taking my 4th at the center right next time (assuming me being top position) since it seems better suited for taking a forward position with my army.
taking a fourth at the encaved base (the spot that the zerg took as his third) would have been fine. You can deny and use the tower near the center right base as a staging point and starve him out harder that way. Hey, thanks for your reply. Regarding my composition, I do pure marine tank normally and fared very well with it until I met Zergs who were really good at keeping their muta's harassing and on the move. I just lost two games before this one to Zergs that flew their muta's through my turret line and just killed all my production while I was half way across the map leapfrogging my tanks and killing creep. I haven't really figured out what to do in such a situation. Hence I chose to make Thors this game when I saw he was going heavy on the muta's. Haven't made my mind up about them yet, I feel like they're OK at keeping muta's from killing too much stuff but they really aren't a solid counter like phoenixes are. Might just make 2 next time to discourage Zerg from making more mutalisks, but they were definitely eating into my army's ability to engage in a straight up fight with his ultra, ling, baneling. About the PF, I don't like to build a PF there since I feel I can defend an OC by walling that path off with Raxes and putting some Tanks and Turrets behind it. Didn't get to do it this game since he was all over my third from the get go and in retrospect it forced my army to be placed very defensively and unthreatening in regards to his additional bases. I don't like PF's in general as I'm trying to play a heavy macro style. I feel Terran play will eventually steer towards PF's at the 4th unless the third's completely out of the way. Anyways, thanks for your pov. I'll experiment with getting less thors or rerouting their investment all together and putting it towards more tanks and medivacs. I think my main problem currently is positioning, which is really key when you have the immobile army. I guess I'll just have to endure the annoyingness of muta's and limit their damage by running a task force of rines around
Np, glad I could help. Something to consider when wanting to prevent muta harass like that is to rally your marines to your base and weak points and use them plus turrets to defend your infrastructure. Doing this will also help w/ having your reinforcements being picked off because you can just wait for 2-3 cycles before moving out. Mutas are extremely expensive and zergs won't want to fight 3 turrets and a rallying point of marines. As far as the pf goes, I think you are right but xnc really benefits from having a pf. If you can get up the rax wall then you should be ok (as long as you have thors protecting it from the mutas) but the safer play is to have your fourth be a OC.
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On June 10 2011 13:54 xaviUT wrote:Hope i'm not too late, but THIS BUILD has helped me immensely in my TvZ. I'm not going to include some replays, but MMA did this 1rax FE nearly every game. It is a very safe, macro oriented build with many options for harass and a strong 2 base push. I really recommend doing something like this, and i'm not just "jumping on the bandwagon" so to speak since MMA has been using it. This build has been around for quite some time. IMO it is simply an incredibly straightforward way to play that allows for plenty of adaptation to various playstyles. GLHF
Depending on what the zerg is going, if the zerg gas pooled then yes it has to make some lings to defend.
But if the zerg hatches first (like a good zerg should), a spine will be up before 2 rax marines can even get there, you can pull drones to prevent the bunker and surround the marine.
MMA is different than some random terran player, he does the build but he doesn't need to force 10 lings, or he knows exactly how to harass so that he does force 10 lings etc etc.
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i always see terran beat zerg in tourneys just adapt and u win
User was temp banned for this post.
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Personally the best strategy I use is 2 port banshee into expansion then get armory for the mutas, transition into marine/tank if banshee harass didn't end the game. Key is to not get the 2port scouted ofc.
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Zergs are just getting so much better. Alot of Zergs are realizing how to muta pressure more effectively. I hate when they get the 20+ muta and keep going for the back stab -_-.
Ghosts are good but they still get tons of FG off.
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On June 11 2011 00:19 Bro_Stone wrote:
Personally the best strategy I use is 2 port banshee into expansion then get armory for the mutas, transition into marine/tank if banshee harass didn't end the game. Key is to not get the 2port scouted ofc.
I've been messing around with 2 ports in TvP/Z. Personally i think its actually a good build which forces toss/Zerg to turtle and build specific units. THese are stalkers/Hydras/Mutas. All these investments delay scary units like infestor/Banlings/Tier 3 toss. Which then you can easily crush with almost anything.
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Much of my game vs. zerg is meta. I like to trick my opponent into thinking hes safe to drone/expand and hit with a solid timing. I think the hardest part about playing zerg at plat/diamond levels is the necessary decision making at crucial timings throughout games, without over or under reacting.
Attacking a zerg at crucial times is very hard to deal with (ie. stim/upgrade timings).
Also, I found that my TvZ improved drastically when I started being patient with my play. I always had felt so far behind when playing a "turtle" style when securing my natural expansion. Although this is true, you are giving the zerg the map, pulling out a great timing attack with siege tanks can crush through a zerg who takes the push too lightly. On maps like Shakuras, It always felt counter intuitive to start sieging my tanks half way across the map, because there isnt anything for them to hit yet. But the pressure onto zerg creep will cause him to react pretty hard to your push.
Remember, its always very hard for a zerg to engage a solid terran ball. Force him to throw units into your powerful army.
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How did this thread last so long? No tag, no replay, bad English.
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EPT
