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I'm pretty sure all Terrans toughest match-up right now is TvZ, even if it's their "personal best match-up." With the infestor change, there are some sick infestor/ling upgrade styles where a Zerg, especially on far positions...can literally only mass infestors and zerglings (this is not a joke) and win...usually getting fast broodlords as well.
I managed to catch an IPL qualifier game recently of lalush vs bratok...and yeah...it was pretty sickening to see bratok lose i believe game 3 to yet another typical mass infestor strategy (lalush ended up with 20+ infestors i believe).
Pretty sure every good Terran right now is using ghosts in their lategame play vs Zerg and Protoss too...but you always have to have a good base army composition of tank/marine/med/thor with upgrades. Or you can go mech but pure mech isn't that good anymore tvz imo.
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TvZ is by far the hardest Terran v X match-up right now. I know Master Protosses saying that Terran is so strong and easy, switching for 2 days and then coming back to protoss because TvZ is impossible to catch for them.
I play a Marine oriented opening, were i try to constantly apply pressure on the Zerg, while expanding slowly and then transitioning into Marine-Siege-Thor, Ghosts and sometimes Vikings. As someone already said, ALL TURRETS ARE WORTH IT if he goes strongly mutas. And then its about denying the Zerg expansions...
Well I cant say more, because i lose against Zerg partly more than i win. But I think it's possible, difficult, but possible.
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one fun trick....blue flame hellions kill larvae really fast. so when you're going for drones and they run away, take a second and snipe those larvae. really messed up the zerg.
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I've been having a lot of trouble lately with my TvZ as well. I took a couple month break and thought maybe my Marine Tank push timings were off even though my control has improved a lot since then but I've come to realize that Zerg's are just so used to it that now it's only effective about 30% of the time. Thanks for all of the tips and ideas I'm going to start trying to really put the pressure on rather than wait for my timing and see how that goes if it fails I'm going to try incorporating ghosts more into my build.
I think the big problem is as was said earlier you either go super aggressive or turtle. If you lose too much without being cost effective while being aggressive you lose, if you turtle too much you end up having to deal with tier 3 tech switches with infestors and you just get whittled down until you don't have enough resources left to hold off the final attack.
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On May 21 2011 01:19 avilo wrote:
I'm pretty sure all Terrans toughest match-up right now is TvZ, even if it's their "personal best match-up." With the infestor change, there are some sick infestor/ling upgrade styles where a Zerg, especially on far positions...can literally only mass infestors and zerglings (this is not a joke) and win...usually getting fast broodlords as well.
I managed to catch an IPL qualifier game recently of lalush vs bratok...and yeah...it was pretty sickening to see bratok lose i believe game 3 to yet another typical mass infestor strategy (lalush ended up with 20+ infestors i believe).
Pretty sure every good Terran right now is using ghosts in their lategame play vs Zerg and Protoss too...but you always have to have a good base army composition of tank/marine/med/thor with upgrades. Or you can go mech but pure mech isn't that good anymore tvz imo.
Destiny abuses this and so do his minions. (infestor + ling)
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GM terran here. I have no idea how to win T v Z unless the map gives me short spawns (close metal or close temple) or is a one where I can turtle easily (shakuras).
The nerf to PDD in the latest patch is just a huge slap in the face.
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On May 20 2011 05:15 Tenks wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2011 05:10 mbr2321 wrote:
A mostly mech composition is not countered by Roach/infestor. If you do damage with early BF Hellions, they have no units. If your hellions fail, good tank positioning and a slow push fucks up Roach infestor. If you're not caught with your pants down without detection or in bad positioning, you will roll through roach infestor. If the game progresses, when my 3rd starts to kick in, I add a fifth factory and two starports and crank vikings blindly. If Zerg has teched to BL, it works great. If not, Vikings dominate the map, shut down any magic box (four or five vikings plus 2ish thors do incredibly well against the same food in muta), serve as scouts and can kill stray overlords. I've ran into problems doing this because if I get slightly out of position with my Vikings and they get caught in Fungal range but not Siege range they all die. Then they just move their BL and roll down all my tanks. I have to babysit the Vikings so much that I feel so nervous going that composition against Infestor/BL.
In a 200 v 200 split map position, you have to babysit your units period. That's how late-mid / late game works right now.
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there are a few styles
-marine tank medivac style. fast expand followed by fast tank if they are aggressive, otherwise fast stim and fast medivac. usually no harassment besides initial marine poke from a 2 rax, until stim and medivac is done.
-no thors are allowed in this composition
-best done on large open maps, or maps in which you can elevator drop.
-constant drops
-constant drop makes it uneasy for zerg to play without mutas
-you know how to react to mutas, basically, upgrades marines
-double ebay as soon as you can afford it (after siege tech, maybe before starport if you are ahead)
-get 3/3 asap while constantly doing marine tank medivac pushes. do not over commit and suicide your troops, but be ready to go all in if zerg decides to expand a lil too early
-if you go in, either go in all the way or get out. do not let zerg mass units. there are no such things as contains with this build. its constant harass.
-with good marine micro, you can mass rax, with upgraded rines off 2 or even 3 base with only 1 factory pumping tanks. marines are much better vs mutas than thors in my opinion. if ever goes super muta heavy, just be happy and dont lose your cool. build turrets when u need to, and when u push out leave 10 marines and a medivac at home to deal with 25+ mutas.
-set up right BETWEEN his bases, to make reinforcing hard and to make them think about multitasking 2 armies. Go for the juggular (pool/spire/lair) right before hive tech if you can. this 1 battle will be decided by not getting surrounded and good marine splits.
-if you feel you cannot end it because you fell behind economically, prepare yourself by expanding and adding many tech labs on rax and reactors on ports. you are in for a long game  if he goes broods (3/3 rauders shit on ultras).
-in tier 3 i would suggest doing constant mauruader drops on tech structures while having extra PF in choke points and a good defensive position.
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On May 21 2011 06:39 link0 wrote:
GM terran here. I have no idea how to win T v Z unless the map gives me short spawns (close metal or close temple) or is a one where I can turtle easily (shakuras).
The nerf to PDD in the latest patch is just a huge slap in the face.
They nerfed PDD?
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On May 21 2011 06:39 link0 wrote:
GM terran here. I have no idea how to win T v Z unless the map gives me short spawns (close metal or close temple) or is a one where I can turtle easily (shakuras).
The nerf to PDD in the latest patch is just a huge slap in the face.
1) Totally agree. I only can win on small maps or close spawns.
2) What was the PDD nerf?
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-reaper into mech
-equally effective, equally micro intensive
-1 rax reaper opening followed by lift off on the rax, marines, a CC, and then a fact on the empty tech lab
-the goal of this build is map control (most good zerg will prepare for an all in if you have exceptional map control and deny scouting)
-poke with reaper to check early baneling/free ling kills. queen will pop so i doubt you will get drones, no matter, keeep the reaper by the tower so they have no idea when u expand.
-get the blue flame upgrade asap on the fact with the tech lab. push with 2 helions a reaper and 4 marines. if zerg goes fast lair he will lose lol right then and there. if you sense a lot of zerglings are made retreat your marines, but reapers and helions are good at running so keep pressuring with those.
-if he goes roaches after seeing helions. continue making helions and sprinkle in a few tanks. expand EARLY. if he goes for the expo, you will get a nice 10 helion run by and he loses all his drones. so basically, morph the CC into a PF, but if roaches get there, cancel and lift off. you lose nothing. you should have 2 bunkers at your natural after you expand as well.
-if he goes roaches BEFORE seeing helions, you might be in trouble. get 3 bunkers and prepare for a roach ling all in. get siege mode asap, and make chokepoints with buildings. once your initial force falls from the roaches they will flood your base with speedlings. not very fun. always keep a few helions in the back as reserve forces.
-if he goes extra speedligns + queens + spines to stop helion harass. he will go muta soon. get an ebay and double armory. thor helion is extremely effective vs muta ling with double armory.
-you need to scout when he will get roaches, in which case you need to respond with tanks.
-constantly scan his main (sometimes nat, check helions) for lair. infestor roach is usually not a popular choice, and simply mass tanks if you see an early infestation pit.
-also just upgrade infantry attack, as insurance incase your 160 food push fails.
basically,
if roach - tank
if muta - thor/helion
if infestor - tank
dont go past 3 base, you have to end it before hive tech or else you will be in a world of hurt.
ghosts are effective later because if they go muta roach they will need infestors to deal with the tanks and thors.
mech vs zerg tier 3.
-if you scan greater spire, get vikings and thors. you will need both. 3/3 thors do okay vs broodlords actually.
-rauders if ultras. (this is where you will thank yourself for paying a few hundred gas investment)
-ghosts after you get either vikings or rauders. because then you will be less vulnerable to a tech switch. also, infestor/ultra and infestor/broodlord/corruptor are a pain the ass to deal with.
-dont forget to take a 4th if you see zerg getting hive tech and you cant push to win for whatever reason.
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On May 21 2011 07:06 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2011 06:39 link0 wrote:
GM terran here. I have no idea how to win T v Z unless the map gives me short spawns (close metal or close temple) or is a one where I can turtle easily (shakuras).
The nerf to PDD in the latest patch is just a huge slap in the face. They nerfed PDD?
DONT STOp broodlods anymore
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I've been struggling with this MU a lot recently too. Depending on the map a lot of times I do the Griffith 4OC opener haha.
I feel that as a Terran I can hold off early game Z, but not late game so as long as I have a greater economic advantage than the Zerg. If I am constantly putting pressure on the Z and come out without losing everything terribly, I know I win because it is preventing him from droning up and instead making an army to deal with mine.
(I'm a high diamond Terran. Not the best in the game, but decent)
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i think most terrans are struggling because infestors are just so darn good atm, they are so cost efficient and with improper control you lose your entire supply count in 3 fungals.
i have come to the conclusion while playing that you basically need ghosts to go with the marine/tank style, you must emp the infestors and try and stim a couple marauders around occasionally and just pick the infestors off as often as possible
what worries me right now isnt the infestors though... once zergs start burrowing banelings every single game (why the hell arent they already there is literally absolutely not a single reason why every zerg should not be doing this, burrow is not expensive really and you can use it for every single ground unit you produce) i think we are going to be spread too thin with our army since the investment in ravens/ghosts is going to cost so much gas
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A great TvZ style that I have seen used by SeleCT and NaDa is to not make a starport in favor of more factories. Usually done by way of 2 rax expand, double gas, 2 factory blue flame hellion. Then tech to tanks, get an engi bay & armor and start getting attack upgrades only for bio & mech. Expand, then add a 3rd factory and start spamming addonless barracks(of course have one with a tech lab for stim & combat shield).
If the game goes late, you need to make some blind starports when you see hivetech. Make some vikings, if he goes broods keep making them, if he goes ultras you will probably roll him with +3 marines and +3 mech. You can throw in some banshees for good measure @ that point.
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On May 21 2011 07:17 4Servy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2011 07:06 avilo wrote:On May 21 2011 06:39 link0 wrote:
GM terran here. I have no idea how to win T v Z unless the map gives me short spawns (close metal or close temple) or is a one where I can turtle easily (shakuras).
The nerf to PDD in the latest patch is just a huge slap in the face. They nerfed PDD? DONT STOp broodlods anymore
why would they nerf that...seriously? That was the only reason to ever make ravens -_-
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I have not used Ling Muta in ZvT in the longest time, last time I checked mutalisk were pretty easy to deal with as terran.
The thing I find that works the best (against me and zergs I watch play) is a 1 rax 1 gas, into bunker rush with 3-4 marines. Then you get a fast 4 hellions, and then you transition into mass tank marine, then you make rax and factories as you make more CC's, I've seen lots of rax and lots of factories on 2 base.
Also the best thing to do to zerg after your bunker rush, is to make like 20 marines and randomly attack, take the attack go up to the zerg kill an overlord or two force a bunch of lings (look at the eggs) then go back to your base. If he runs you down your 20 marines can handle lots and lots of lings.
The bunker rush should be right after your rax is finished rally your scv and build the bunker out of range of his hatchery, then when its finished build it closer to his hatch. (Best thing to do is to see when the hatch is at 90% done, then halt production of your bunker quickly start the other one and then go back to finish your first bunker. That way his creep won't get in the way.
Rally lings and start getting hellions... How you do this is up to you.
Make a 9:30~ 3+ tank marine push.
Make a 12:00 mass tank thor marine push with a raven
Make a 15:00 final push with everything you got (no scvs I mean like just mass everything and win hopefully if you can't win with that push then you can't win not unless the game goes on for another 15 minutes).
If you can't win with this (strategy) your macro is the problem. Work on that and then complain about Z's being hard to beat.
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Wow, this is quite an informative thread.
I don't think I can add to what's already been said, but it does seem like Terran has to learn some new tricks.
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On May 20 2011 04:17 Dente wrote:
I'm in the same boat, and I saw lzgamer struggling too. The biggest problem for me are infestors. Are you guys having trouble with infestor + ling into hive (--> broodlord / ultra)? I'm still trying to find a sollution.
I tried to learn from the pro's, so I downloaded alot of TvZ reps @ sc2rep.com. I almost never found a terran winning, unless with cheese.
I dont really see this being a struggle. If Terrans would actually go Ghosts sometimes they would rape. Ghosts own infestors, they own brood lords and MM isnt even funny vs ultras.
Only reason why Terran is struggling against zerg is cause they forget about ghosts mid/late game and they forget to harras and apply pressure
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I see 2 problems most often when i watch Terrans stream.
1)They play gimmicky, they get BFH to try and win the game, not to control space, same with banshees, and with any other unit combo, its almost always turtle --> push. Zerg feels comfortable about that kind of play. But Zergs hate not having map control, not scouting, and not being able to deal with certain units. Keep your units alive and control the game.
2) They don't spend their gas mid/late game. I have seen scores of games where Terrans are banking ~1000 gas and complain about open space, Inf, etc. Spend your gas, Ravens are great vs roaches and Mutalisks because of PDD and Seeker Missile. Ghosts destroy infestors and snipe is reasonable vs Broods and Ultras. Especially since you aren't spending that gas anyway.
I feel like Terrans feel the need to harass and kill drones to stay even. If you force units early, you are killing drones and influencing their tech path a great deal.
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EPT
