the only maps it could work on are maps where there's no ramp leading to the natural. sounds interesting, if they put a cannon in the front, it's susceptible to roach busts.

hugman

Sweden4644 Posts

May 05 2011 13:08 GMT

#22

On May 05 2011 21:54 Sporadic44 wrote:
this strategy was certainly innovative and well played. but on the current set of ladder maps the forge FE is rare. on the maps that it is used (Tal'darim, shakuras, and less often shattered) the choke is sufficiently far enough from the expo itself that pulling this off as easily would be difficult. you certainly wouldnt get the nexus kill using spines alone. if anything it could be used to setup a contain against your opponent. other than that it was a very situational play.

I think it has potential even on maps where the Nexus is quite a bit behind the wall-off. You're going to be able to kill the Forge (cannons behind it will be outranged) and then he either has to make pre-emptive cannons while waiting for a new Forge to build, or take a big risk by not making them. If you go all in with this and bring lots of lings and even a Queen to transfuse the spines I think you can make it too risky for Protoss to feel good about going FFE. Lots of testing to do though, of course.

Leavzou

France156 Posts

May 05 2011 13:10 GMT

#23

Maybe a sporecrawler should be good to deny the first or second voidray ?

ALPINA

3791 Posts

May 05 2011 13:24 GMT

#24

Well if you consider that 80% of protoss players are going forge FE on Tal Darim then I think it's worth practising this build.

I was thinking what if you make lair instead of ling speed with first 100 gas, that way lair gonna come so much more earlier.

Edit: ahh I guess you won't kill the nexus on tal darim anyways...

Dommk

Australia4865 Posts

May 05 2011 13:32 GMT

#25

How is this very risky exactly? You drone whilst getting fast lair, it just shuffles the order in which you get things, the end result is the same.

Obviously it is a reaction, if it fails, and really the only way it seems to fail is if the Protoss goes for a SUPER fast Stargate (risky) whilst doing forge first, or if he has positioned cannons at the front of his builds (can be sniped by roaches).

You are right with the reaction, and as Artosis was saying, this can be improvised. Spine crawler bust with a ling all-in.

Or maybe even if it is a map like Shakuras, couldn't you just kill all the buildings at the front and leave? 300 minerals and 3 drones is a pretty good trade for a Forge, Gateway and a Cybernetics Core ++ few more cannons if the Protoss becomes shaken. You might even be able to reuse the spines if you use overlords and lings to escort them back home.

Mellon

Sweden917 Posts

May 05 2011 13:34 GMT

#26

If you can't snipe the nexus, you turn it into killing cannons and whatnot. Either making it worthless or leading to the zerg doing an all-in after busting the wall. If toss can hold he can get a void ray or two, aswell as a gateway army, outteching and destroying your contain. If you simply keep them there to contain, it don't really matter. As toss aint gonna grab his 3rd at that point anyway. It's a risky build on maps that allows a wall infront of the Nexus, otherwise it's smart i'd say.

Gonna be interesting to play vs!

Sporadic44

United States533 Posts

May 05 2011 13:38 GMT

#27

its risky because the protoss has to play insanely greedy to not be prepared for this play. and anypros reaction to it was less than ideal. he saw the spines morphing. and to get such a quick lair you have to get gas extremely early. i dont see it working on the current map pool against a competent player. especially since nes teas done it, the cats out of the bag and any toss who goes ffe will account for this play. but try it out dommk, and post the replay. until then i'll maintain that it's a risky play, your opponent must be playing greedy, and if your opponent has seen it before it has reduced effect. best case scenario you kill a forge and a few pylons.

prove me wrong with a replay of you executing this. against a diamond level+

nihlon

Sweden5581 Posts

May 05 2011 13:41 GMT

#28

On May 05 2011 22:38 Sporadic44 wrote:
its risky because the protoss has to play insanely greedy to not be prepared for this play. and anypros reaction to it was less than ideal. he saw the spines morphing. and to get such a quick lair you have to get gas extremely early. i dont see it working on the current map pool against a competent player. especially since nes teas done it, the cats out of the bag and any toss who goes ffe will account for this play. but try it out dommk, and post the replay. until then i'll maintain that it's a risky play, your opponent must be playing greedy, and if your opponent has seen it before it has reduced effect. best case scenario you kill a forge and a few pylons.

prove me wrong with a replay of you executing this. against a diamond level+

What are you talking about, he didn't get his gas extreemly early.

hugman

Sweden4644 Posts

May 05 2011 13:44 GMT

#29

FFE is extremely greedy, and Nestea got gas at a normal time (14 supply)!

Sporadic44

United States533 Posts

May 05 2011 13:46 GMT

#30

sorry i didnt note that forgive me. but i still maintain it would be difficult to reproduce that play. just my opinion. and once again, id love to see a replay of someone diamond or higher executing this on a ladder map.

Bobster

Germany3075 Posts

May 05 2011 13:53 GMT

#31

The spinecrawler push reminded me of Idra's giraffe migration. :p

On May 05 2011 21:48 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:

Show nested quote +

stop reading TL then. spoiler QQ is so annoying .. your fault.

Basically.

So annoyed by people complaining abut getting spoiled after trying their best to get spoiled shy of clicking on the spoilertags themselves. Don't browse TL forums or Reddit or WP.org until after you've seen the matches, simple.

GHOSTCLAW

United States17042 Posts

May 05 2011 14:21 GMT

#32

need spoiler tags, also, I see that there is a build order, but it's not in the OP; in addition, it would be really nice if you had some replays where this did/didn't work out against nexus first. I've seen this on huks' stream, which indicates that it's at least somewhat popular on the korean server.

So, op content/tag is okay, but it would be nice if you included a spoiler tag in the title, added some information to the op, and possibly tried it out to see how it worked.

go ahead and remake it with at least the build order/spoilers in the OP, and if you're feeling really good about it, include replays.