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This was done against AnyPro.We today on the GSL and I really can't wait to give it a try. Seems VERY risky, in my opinion, but may be helpful in forge expand situations. Have any of you tried anything like this before? It was mind blowing when it happened!
simple build overview:
+ Show Spoiler +
From what I could decipher without seeing it for a second time, Nestea kept one drone in gas to research Lair more quickly than normal, then researched overlord speed, cut drones, built around 8 lings, saved up 300 minerals, and began spewing creep outside AnyproPrime.we's natural in range of his nexus, which was built with a forge first FE.
The spines were built on the proxy creep, uprooted, and placed in range of the second nexus, and also a gateway, before the protoss had enough units to stop it. A void ray was built as fast as possible to hard counter the spines, so Nestea followed up his opening with a hydra all in(?).
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If your going to start the thread about this strategy you need to include a detailed OP.
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Maybe add some spoiler tags and/or including his opponent in the title so people get an idea which game it is. I didn't watch GSL yet since stream didn't work at work 
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Come on guys, match-up is barely over. It's very simple the way he did that. If you saw you can do it. There's no need to create a thread about it right now.
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Lol, was pretty neat to watch and the amazement from Tastosis over it.
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Actually not risky against the nexus first build depending on map and positions-- the protoss will not have time to produce anything that shoots up to snipe the overlord in time. But the build does not include overlord speed-- nestea got the overlords over to the base the slow way. So it requires that you be able to position the slow overlord(s) in time, as the delay for speed would render it ineffective.
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I was already a victim of this on ladder 
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This build worked against anypro because he went forge FE. There were no units for protoss on the map (he exploited his timing very well) which is why those spine crawlers were able to go up uncontested. This would not work at all against a 3 gate expand, or even a two gate expand build because protoss would be able to deny the spinecrawler placement. I think if anypro had seen it in time and pulled probes and used what units he had he could have stopped it. A forward place cannon in front of the nexus would have done the trick too. Its cheese... high risk, high reward situation. There is no way to graceful transition out of that if it fails, because you wasted a lot in opportunity cost to get a quick lair.
That being said, it was really fucking cool and I can't wait to try it.
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Just to note is that this is a canon expand counter, not a viable build itself. But yeah if you see your opponent Forge expand, tech lair and build spines 
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On May 05 2011 20:54 mothergoose729 wrote:
This build worked against anypro because he went forge FE. There were no units for protoss on the map (he exploited his timing very well) which is why those spine crawlers were able to go up uncontested. This would not work at all against a 3 gate expand, or even a two gate expand build because protoss would be able to deny the spinecrawler placement. I think if anypro had seen it in time and pulled probes and used what units he had he could have stopped it. A forward place cannon in front of the nexus would have done the trick too. Its cheese... high risk, high reward situation. There is no way to graceful transition out of that if it fails, because you wasted a lot in opportunity cost to get a quick lair.
That being said, it was really fucking cool and I can't wait to try it.
Now you just made a fool of yourself. It's not chessy at all, because it's a COUNTER to the greedy Forge FE, which is more likely a cheese/greedy play. And it is not a game over if it fails slighty either, soo stop talk shit.
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This build worked becaue he went forge FE on a map where it's really not safe to do so. On the standard forge FE maps, you get a complete wall in front of your natural; this could pick off a gateway or forge, but you have to sacrifice too much for that to really be a good trade.
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Right after the matches finished I went on the ladder and was matched against a protoss.
Needless to say, it does not work on shakuras plateau.
However, in the next vP game on Typhon peaks. I went for my regular ling agression against 3gate expand and got my lair quite late. I hid an overlord out of sight in the main attack path and started creeping + spinecrawlering it.
I was able to lay siege on the nexus while keeping the units at bay with my zerglings. It was a pretty exciting thing to do.
So yeah, I'm gonna experiment with this a whole lot more .
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If I didn't catch the games live I would be pretty pissed about spoilers here.
WRT the tactic itself, it's hardly a build unless you KNOW your opponent is going for an extremely greedy fast expo build. I'm sure its effectiveness will decline once the element of surprise disappears as well.
It was exciting to see nonetheless.
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I read the FIRST SENTENCE OF THIS AND ALL I CAN SAY IS PUT GOD DAMN SPOILER TAGS OR A PROPER TITLE THE FIRST THING I READ IS HE DID THIS VS SANGHO WHICH I'M WATCHING RIGHT NOW. God damn thanks for ruining at least one game for me.
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On May 05 2011 21:22 Figgy wrote:
I read the FIRST SENTENCE OF THIS AND ALL I CAN SAY IS PUT GOD DAMN SPOILER TAGS OR A PROPER TITLE THE FIRST THING I READ IS HE DID THIS VS SANGHO WHICH I'M WATCHING RIGHT NOW. God damn thanks for ruining at least one game for me.
stop reading TL then. spoiler QQ is so annoying .. your fault.
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On May 05 2011 20:57 Veasel wrote:Just to note is that this is a canon expand counter, not a viable build itself. But yeah if you see your opponent Forge expand, tech lair and build spines
Exactly.
This isn't something you have in your mind at the beginning of the game, you can't go "alright, i'm gonna proxy spine this guy" this is simply a reaction to what Anypro was doing, extremely situational.
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If you want to watch this the VOD is up (http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors3/vod/65228). I think the OP isn't that good right now - but here you have the build order from Nestea.
Remember that Nestea reacts to Anypros build so it's not a straight build.
9 Overlord
14 Extractor
13 Pool
@ Extractor finished - 3 drones on gas.
15 Overlord
16 Queen
16 4 Zerglings
@ 100 Gas - Research Metabolic Boost
@ 100 gas - 2 drones on minerals, 1 still on gas.
Exactly here - around 3.27-3.30 Nestea scouts the Nexus first and here comes the reactionary following build after that:
19 Hatch
3 Drones after that
Pull back 2 drones on gas again (to get Lair tech)
@ 22 Supply - Lair tech (Around 4:34)
@ 22 Supply - Droning like crazy. No drones on gas - saturating both bases.
@ 5:20 - He starts sending 3 drones to the opponents base
@ 5:53 - Lair tech finished
@ 6:00 - 3 spine crawlers created from Overlord creep right outside opponents base.
The key here is the fast reactionary Lair tech after scouting AnyPros expansion. This is to get creep from the Overlord so that he can build Spine Crawlers.
I can write down the rest of the build if you want that as well?
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this strategy was certainly innovative and well played. but on the current set of ladder maps the forge FE is rare. on the maps that it is used (Tal'darim, shakuras, and less often shattered) the choke is sufficiently far enough from the expo itself that pulling this off as easily would be difficult. you certainly wouldnt get the nexus kill using spines alone. if anything it could be used to setup a contain against your opponent. other than that it was a very situational play.
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Silver, do you m ind if I copy and paste the build giving you credit in the OP?
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On May 05 2011 21:57 FlattLine wrote:
Silver, do you m ind if I copy and paste the build giving you credit in the OP?
Sure, do it
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the only maps it could work on are maps where there's no ramp leading to the natural. sounds interesting, if they put a cannon in the front, it's susceptible to roach busts.
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On May 05 2011 21:54 Sporadic44 wrote:
this strategy was certainly innovative and well played. but on the current set of ladder maps the forge FE is rare. on the maps that it is used (Tal'darim, shakuras, and less often shattered) the choke is sufficiently far enough from the expo itself that pulling this off as easily would be difficult. you certainly wouldnt get the nexus kill using spines alone. if anything it could be used to setup a contain against your opponent. other than that it was a very situational play.
I think it has potential even on maps where the Nexus is quite a bit behind the wall-off. You're going to be able to kill the Forge (cannons behind it will be outranged) and then he either has to make pre-emptive cannons while waiting for a new Forge to build, or take a big risk by not making them. If you go all in with this and bring lots of lings and even a Queen to transfuse the spines I think you can make it too risky for Protoss to feel good about going FFE. Lots of testing to do though, of course.
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Maybe a sporecrawler should be good to deny the first or second voidray ?
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Well if you consider that 80% of protoss players are going forge FE on Tal Darim then I think it's worth practising this build.
I was thinking what if you make lair instead of ling speed with first 100 gas, that way lair gonna come so much more earlier.
Edit: ahh I guess you won't kill the nexus on tal darim anyways...
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How is this very risky exactly? You drone whilst getting fast lair, it just shuffles the order in which you get things, the end result is the same.
Obviously it is a reaction, if it fails, and really the only way it seems to fail is if the Protoss goes for a SUPER fast Stargate (risky) whilst doing forge first, or if he has positioned cannons at the front of his builds (can be sniped by roaches).
You are right with the reaction, and as Artosis was saying, this can be improvised. Spine crawler bust with a ling all-in.
Or maybe even if it is a map like Shakuras, couldn't you just kill all the buildings at the front and leave? 300 minerals and 3 drones is a pretty good trade for a Forge, Gateway and a Cybernetics Core ++ few more cannons if the Protoss becomes shaken. You might even be able to reuse the spines if you use overlords and lings to escort them back home.
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If you can't snipe the nexus, you turn it into killing cannons and whatnot. Either making it worthless or leading to the zerg doing an all-in after busting the wall. If toss can hold he can get a void ray or two, aswell as a gateway army, outteching and destroying your contain. If you simply keep them there to contain, it don't really matter. As toss aint gonna grab his 3rd at that point anyway. It's a risky build on maps that allows a wall infront of the Nexus, otherwise it's smart i'd say.
Gonna be interesting to play vs!
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its risky because the protoss has to play insanely greedy to not be prepared for this play. and anypros reaction to it was less than ideal. he saw the spines morphing. and to get such a quick lair you have to get gas extremely early. i dont see it working on the current map pool against a competent player. especially since nes teas done it, the cats out of the bag and any toss who goes ffe will account for this play. but try it out dommk, and post the replay. until then i'll maintain that it's a risky play, your opponent must be playing greedy, and if your opponent has seen it before it has reduced effect. best case scenario you kill a forge and a few pylons.
prove me wrong with a replay of you executing this. against a diamond level+
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On May 05 2011 22:38 Sporadic44 wrote:
its risky because the protoss has to play insanely greedy to not be prepared for this play. and anypros reaction to it was less than ideal. he saw the spines morphing. and to get such a quick lair you have to get gas extremely early. i dont see it working on the current map pool against a competent player. especially since nes teas done it, the cats out of the bag and any toss who goes ffe will account for this play. but try it out dommk, and post the replay. until then i'll maintain that it's a risky play, your opponent must be playing greedy, and if your opponent has seen it before it has reduced effect. best case scenario you kill a forge and a few pylons.
prove me wrong with a replay of you executing this. against a diamond level+
What are you talking about, he didn't get his gas extreemly early.
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On May 05 2011 22:38 Sporadic44 wrote:
its risky because the protoss has to play insanely greedy to not be prepared for this play. and anypros reaction to it was less than ideal. he saw the spines morphing. and to get such a quick lair you have to get gas extremely early.
FFE is extremely greedy, and Nestea got gas at a normal time (14 supply)!
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sorry i didnt note that forgive me. but i still maintain it would be difficult to reproduce that play. just my opinion. and once again, id love to see a replay of someone diamond or higher executing this on a ladder map.
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The spinecrawler push reminded me of Idra's giraffe migration. :p
On May 05 2011 21:48 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 21:22 Figgy wrote:
I read the FIRST SENTENCE OF THIS AND ALL I CAN SAY IS PUT GOD DAMN SPOILER TAGS OR A PROPER TITLE THE FIRST THING I READ IS HE DID THIS VS SANGHO WHICH I'M WATCHING RIGHT NOW. God damn thanks for ruining at least one game for me. stop reading TL then. spoiler QQ is so annoying .. your fault.
Basically.
So annoyed by people complaining abut getting spoiled after trying their best to get spoiled shy of clicking on the spoilertags themselves. Don't browse TL forums or Reddit or WP.org until after you've seen the matches, simple.
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United States17042 Posts
need spoiler tags, also, I see that there is a build order, but it's not in the OP; in addition, it would be really nice if you had some replays where this did/didn't work out against nexus first. I've seen this on huks' stream, which indicates that it's at least somewhat popular on the korean server.
So, op content/tag is okay, but it would be nice if you included a spoiler tag in the title, added some information to the op, and possibly tried it out to see how it worked.
go ahead and remake it with at least the build order/spoilers in the OP, and if you're feeling really good about it, include replays.
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EPT
