On May 02 2011 23:39 Mactator wrote: LOL! This just shows how colored this discussion is. You show us four games. In all of them one of the teams makes a proxy gate and the other forgot to scout. Come'on. This is not a standard example of 2v2. This is just bad play from 1v1 players who doesn't take team games serious. These 1v1 progamers don't practice hard for team games or play them regularly. To have a good 2v2 tournament the teams should at least take 2v2 seriously and develop some strategies. When Actionjesuz wins a 1v1 with 6 pool those that mean 1v1 is stupid - not really!
On May 02 2011 23:17 cuppatea wrote: For the people wondering what "high level 2v2" looks like, here are a few examples from the Machinima Realm Invitational (which EG won, thanks to their stellar 2v2 record):
EG proxy gate/ling rushing JulyZerg and Junwi (offracing as Terran) and winning in 8 minutes:
EG proxy gate/ling rushing Morrow and Strelok and winning in 14 minutes:
EG proxy gate/ling rushing Drewbie and Catz and winning in 10 minutes:
EG proxy gate/ling rushing PungPung and Atreyu and winning in 11 minutes:
Basically, "high level 2v2" equals 4 1v1 players playing a game in which the team with very little preperation execute a 1 base rush and kill the guys with zero preperation.
I'd rather they just played a reverse race game if they HAVE to throw a "fun" game in there, at least most of the players will have more experience playing with their offrace than with their designated 2v2 partner.
That's my whole point, none of the players in this league give a shit about 2v2 so why waste a quarter of each pre-ace match on it?
We're going to see in this league exactly what we saw in the MRI, a bunch of 1v1 pros playing shitty games in a format they don't practice for or care about.
Hmm... They accepted the league format and there's a couple grand on the line. They're probably giving a shit.
I think most viewers would rather see Liquid in this tournament. The argument of the best possible games is why you left Liquid and the server rule out is just plain silly. The possible games feature the best possible players. A lot of those players are on TeamLiquid.
The viewer's, for the most part, don't give a shit about server conditions. The TSL has offered up some of the most entertaining games of SC2 that I have seen to date, and guess what? There were server imbalances. You know what made those games good? Good players.
I don't see how makings some small server adjustments is a big thing to ask of people. Re-localizing or playing on a different account or client is the simplest thing in the world. In the end it's just something that the tournament didn't want to deal with. It's my opinion that if you're putting together an elite tournament you deal with these minor inconveniences. It's part of the territory. You have to put in the effort to get the results.
On May 03 2011 03:12 fire_brand wrote: The viewer's, for the most part, don't give a shit about server conditions.
Right... that would be why there has been tons of bitching about lag in both the TSL and NASL just about every time a Korean has played. I'd rather have no one in Korea play in these tournaments than have lag brought up every time they play.
On May 02 2011 10:08 Pirat6662001 wrote: Confused why team Empire did not get invited. Easily would be in top 4 with presented line up. Nerchio, Kas, Beasty, Happy as main line up with BLy and hobot to call upon is a fearsome team
Empire was 7th / 8 in the GCPL . @_@
Are you saying that your argument for not inviting Empire was because of their previous results? If so you are making a mistake, Empire's lineup is better now and it's the team of many top EU players. If you compare them to ROOT, Sixjax, Millenium, and MYM I think you will find that Empire is above their standard, especially the later three.
Uh... first: I had nothing to do with invites, this isn't my tournament.
Second: Yes, I am judging based on previous results. How can you possibly judge based on something else?
Third: Beastyqt isn't very good, he played in GCPL and lost most weeks.
Fourth: Happy has no significant achievements, neither does Aristeo or Bly - so how can you say anything about them?
Last: Ok, Nerchio is not bad, but having one extra player on the team that is decent doesn't warrant them being in this league. They had a chance to show that they didn't suck in GCPL, and they donked it up.
How can you judge a players skill based off one league? That is absurd. Beastyqt has been one of the top terrans for a while in EU.
Have you checked the EU ladder lately? Happy is constantly near the top with one of the best records. Not only that he was a very good WC3 player. While we haven't seen him win anything big yet, I am almost positive that he will blow up in the tournament scene very soon.
I don't know why you are attacking their team and calling their players bad. It is quite unprofessional.
EDIT: Happy is currently rank 1 in the world with a record of 284-43. Hmmm...
Wow a lot of arguments going on. I feel liquid is forcing their believes on someone's using fairness as excuse. As a player maybe i should go to mlg and tell them make them change the tournament rules. Cause I absolutely hate mlg rules and feel they reward way too much to top performers of past mlg give new players no shot of winning.
On May 03 2011 02:36 Longshank wrote: I don't get it, EG opts for not accommodating to TLs request for fair conditions - but they don't think think twice about using their site for advertising the league. Seems a bit odd to me.
I said this before, but I'll clarify.
TL is in a very unique position right now in the community. We have a pro-team and we're also the main spot for discussion / community interaction in the SC2 scene. I don't think there's ever been a good analogy to the relationship TL has with the community and it's team. It's entirely unique as far as I know.
We try to be as objective as possible when dealing with teams, but obviously we're not going to say we treat everyone the same as we treat Liquid. For instance, we're not going to have an EG or Dignitas Weekly on our front page every week.
However, we will try to do everything in our power to benefit and do what's right for the community. Whether Liquid is in this league or not does not change the fact that it's a $10,000 prize pool league casted and produced by quality staff. The SC2 community is better with it and obviously we will treat it that way.
EG absolutely should not feel that they are "using" TL when they post about a league like this, as it deserves the attention it gets. TL is not the public relations branch for Liquid, we're also a news site for all of StarCraft 2.
Oh alright, I must have missed it, thanks for clearing that up. A second time.
On May 02 2011 10:08 Pirat6662001 wrote: Confused why team Empire did not get invited. Easily would be in top 4 with presented line up. Nerchio, Kas, Beasty, Happy as main line up with BLy and hobot to call upon is a fearsome team
Empire was 7th / 8 in the GCPL . @_@
Are you saying that your argument for not inviting Empire was because of their previous results? If so you are making a mistake, Empire's lineup is better now and it's the team of many top EU players. If you compare them to ROOT, Sixjax, Millenium, and MYM I think you will find that Empire is above their standard, especially the later three.
Uh... first: I had nothing to do with invites, this isn't my tournament.
Second: Yes, I am judging based on previous results. How can you possibly judge based on something else?
Third: Beastyqt isn't very good, he played in GCPL and lost most weeks.
Fourth: Happy has no significant achievements, neither does Aristeo or Bly - so how can you say anything about them?
Last: Ok, Nerchio is not bad, but having one extra player on the team that is decent doesn't warrant them being in this league. They had a chance to show that they didn't suck in GCPL, and they donked it up.
As some people already said, Beastyqt is playing a lot of tournaments and is placing at the top places. It's the same with Happy, he started playing tournaments just a few weeks ago and he already won few GoForSc2 cups(inculding Sunday where a lot of pros play) and other stuff so your arguments are not quite valid. btw. Bly is not in our lineup anymore. And on the last note Kas is so good he deserves to be a 1 man team in this clan league :D
On May 02 2011 10:08 Pirat6662001 wrote: Confused why team Empire did not get invited. Easily would be in top 4 with presented line up. Nerchio, Kas, Beasty, Happy as main line up with BLy and hobot to call upon is a fearsome team
Empire was 7th / 8 in the GCPL . @_@
Are you saying that your argument for not inviting Empire was because of their previous results? If so you are making a mistake, Empire's lineup is better now and it's the team of many top EU players. If you compare them to ROOT, Sixjax, Millenium, and MYM I think you will find that Empire is above their standard, especially the later three.
Uh... first: I had nothing to do with invites, this isn't my tournament.
Second: Yes, I am judging based on previous results. How can you possibly judge based on something else?
Third: Beastyqt isn't very good, he played in GCPL and lost most weeks.
Fourth: Happy has no significant achievements, neither does Aristeo or Bly - so how can you say anything about them?
Last: Ok, Nerchio is not bad, but having one extra player on the team that is decent doesn't warrant them being in this league. They had a chance to show that they didn't suck in GCPL, and they donked it up.
Uhm this comes off as a quite uneducated post, which would be fine if it didn't come from the one handling the NASL invites -.-
On May 02 2011 10:08 Pirat6662001 wrote: Confused why team Empire did not get invited. Easily would be in top 4 with presented line up. Nerchio, Kas, Beasty, Happy as main line up with BLy and hobot to call upon is a fearsome team
Empire was 7th / 8 in the GCPL . @_@
Are you saying that your argument for not inviting Empire was because of their previous results? If so you are making a mistake, Empire's lineup is better now and it's the team of many top EU players. If you compare them to ROOT, Sixjax, Millenium, and MYM I think you will find that Empire is above their standard, especially the later three.
Uh... first: I had nothing to do with invites, this isn't my tournament.
Second: Yes, I am judging based on previous results. How can you possibly judge based on something else?
Third: Beastyqt isn't very good, he played in GCPL and lost most weeks.
Fourth: Happy has no significant achievements, neither does Aristeo or Bly - so how can you say anything about them?
Last: Ok, Nerchio is not bad, but having one extra player on the team that is decent doesn't warrant them being in this league. They had a chance to show that they didn't suck in GCPL, and they donked it up.
Good job at attacking Empire for no reason, I dont know by which standards im bad but thats your personal opinion I guess. Nerchio is top 3 zerg in Europe while Happy is dominating ladder for 6 months or so, just never played cups and he won 80% of all cups last month. Together with Kas Empire is pretty much dominating online cups after Happy and Nerchio joined us.
Its nice from you to mention GCPL that Empire sucked at it, did you mention all games were BO1 and Happy and Nerchio werent in our line-up? Did you mention that at SGL at group stage we came second place with Kas and me all-killing half of teams there and having best record as individuals at SGL? We droped in playoffs because Kas wasnt able to play and Happy + Nerchio werent even in our team at that time.
Empire would be top 3 at this league as I dont see which team would "own" us and games are BO3 now so please stop being clueless and talking about stuff you clearly dont know
On May 02 2011 10:08 Pirat6662001 wrote: Confused why team Empire did not get invited. Easily would be in top 4 with presented line up. Nerchio, Kas, Beasty, Happy as main line up with BLy and hobot to call upon is a fearsome team
Empire was 7th / 8 in the GCPL . @_@
Are you saying that your argument for not inviting Empire was because of their previous results? If so you are making a mistake, Empire's lineup is better now and it's the team of many top EU players. If you compare them to ROOT, Sixjax, Millenium, and MYM I think you will find that Empire is above their standard, especially the later three.
Uh... first: I had nothing to do with invites, this isn't my tournament.
Second: Yes, I am judging based on previous results. How can you possibly judge based on something else?
Third: Beastyqt isn't very good, he played in GCPL and lost most weeks.
Fourth: Happy has no significant achievements, neither does Aristeo or Bly - so how can you say anything about them?
Last: Ok, Nerchio is not bad, but having one extra player on the team that is decent doesn't warrant them being in this league. They had a chance to show that they didn't suck in GCPL, and they donked it up.
Good job at attacking Empire for no reason, I dont know by which standards im bad but thats your personal opinion I guess. Nerchio is top 3 zerg in Europe while Happy is dominating ladder for 6 months or so, just never played cups and he won 80% of all cups last month. Together with Kas Empire is pretty much dominating online cups after Happy and Nerchio joined us.
Its nice from you to mention GCPL that Empire sucked at it, did you mention all games were BO1 and Happy and Nerchio werent in our line-up? Did you mention that at SGL at group stage we came second place with Kas and me all-killing half of teams there and having best record as individuals at SGL? We droped in playoffs because Kas wasnt able to play and Happy + Nerchio werent even in our team at that time.
Empire would be top 3 at this league as I dont see which team would "own" us and games are BO3 now so please stop being clueless and talking about stuff you clearly dont know
Also, Bly isnt in Empire for couple of weeks now.
Format: 3 1 vs.1s (best-of-1) / 1 2 vs. 2 (best-of-1) / 1 1 vs. 1 (best-of-3) ACE if the scores are tied
That doesn't look like games are bo3 other than the ace match which is the same as GCPL.
On May 02 2011 10:08 Pirat6662001 wrote: Confused why team Empire did not get invited. Easily would be in top 4 with presented line up. Nerchio, Kas, Beasty, Happy as main line up with BLy and hobot to call upon is a fearsome team
Empire was 7th / 8 in the GCPL . @_@
Are you saying that your argument for not inviting Empire was because of their previous results? If so you are making a mistake, Empire's lineup is better now and it's the team of many top EU players. If you compare them to ROOT, Sixjax, Millenium, and MYM I think you will find that Empire is above their standard, especially the later three.
Uh... first: I had nothing to do with invites, this isn't my tournament.
Second: Yes, I am judging based on previous results. How can you possibly judge based on something else?
Third: Beastyqt isn't very good, he played in GCPL and lost most weeks.
Fourth: Happy has no significant achievements, neither does Aristeo or Bly - so how can you say anything about them?
Last: Ok, Nerchio is not bad, but having one extra player on the team that is decent doesn't warrant them being in this league. They had a chance to show that they didn't suck in GCPL, and they donked it up.
Uhm this comes off as a quite uneducated post, which would be fine if it didn't come from the one handling the NASL invites -.-
Well, i'm glad i'm not the only one to notice. It's been bothering me for a while.
As Beastyqt outlined, Empire is a really fucking strong team. However, there are a lot of really strong teams out there. Sometimes a good team is going to get left out. I personally believe empire is a stronger team than some of the ones included, but that doesn't necessarily mean that one of the teams included in the event doesn't deserve a spot. It sucks for empire, but these things are going to happen every now and again when there are more teams than spots in an event. If the event organizers were more familiar with the european scene and less familiar with the NA scene, I think there's a good chance that a deserving NA team might have gotten overlooked instead. That's just the way it goes.
On May 02 2011 10:08 Pirat6662001 wrote: Confused why team Empire did not get invited. Easily would be in top 4 with presented line up. Nerchio, Kas, Beasty, Happy as main line up with BLy and hobot to call upon is a fearsome team
Empire was 7th / 8 in the GCPL . @_@
Are you saying that your argument for not inviting Empire was because of their previous results? If so you are making a mistake, Empire's lineup is better now and it's the team of many top EU players. If you compare them to ROOT, Sixjax, Millenium, and MYM I think you will find that Empire is above their standard, especially the later three.
Uh... first: I had nothing to do with invites, this isn't my tournament.
Second: Yes, I am judging based on previous results. How can you possibly judge based on something else?
Third: Beastyqt isn't very good, he played in GCPL and lost most weeks.
Fourth: Happy has no significant achievements, neither does Aristeo or Bly - so how can you say anything about them?
Last: Ok, Nerchio is not bad, but having one extra player on the team that is decent doesn't warrant them being in this league. They had a chance to show that they didn't suck in GCPL, and they donked it up.
Good job at attacking Empire for no reason, I dont know by which standards im bad but thats your personal opinion I guess. Nerchio is top 3 zerg in Europe while Happy is dominating ladder for 6 months or so, just never played cups and he won 80% of all cups last month. Together with Kas Empire is pretty much dominating online cups after Happy and Nerchio joined us.
Its nice from you to mention GCPL that Empire sucked at it, did you mention all games were BO1 and Happy and Nerchio werent in our line-up? Did you mention that at SGL at group stage we came second place with Kas and me all-killing half of teams there and having best record as individuals at SGL? We droped in playoffs because Kas wasnt able to play and Happy + Nerchio werent even in our team at that time.
Empire would be top 3 at this league as I dont see which team would "own" us and games are BO3 now so please stop being clueless and talking about stuff you clearly dont know
On May 03 2011 03:47 Xeris wrote: Why should Empire be invited over other teams when they had a chance in another big league and didn't make it? @__@
Such a silly argument.
Such a silly argument since Empire is completely different from what it once was? If EG didn't have Idra and let's say InControl, they would play in a clan league and do poorly. Then those 2 guys would join EG(Idra and Incontrol) and you wouldn't invite the team because they did bad before? Cmon -.-
Good job at attacking Empire for no reason, I dont know by which standards im bad but thats your personal opinion I guess. Nerchio is top 3 zerg in Europe while Happy is dominating ladder for 6 months or so, just never played cups and he won 80% of all cups last month. Together with Kas Empire is pretty much dominating online cups after Happy and Nerchio joined us.
yea empire is putting up sick results--definitely living up to their clan name. i really wish the EU/NA scenes had more opportunity for interaction. i get to catch EU tourneys sometimes on the weekends, and they are fantastic ... any tournament without empire in the top 4 or even the finals is probably not well represented.
Xeris wrote: Why should Empire be invited over other teams when they had a chance in another big league and didn't make it? @__@
Such a silly argument.
Empire is quite different than it was back then. Additionally, the old players remaining in the lineup got way stronger and much more known (Kas internationally, Nerchio, Happy more in Europe). And i think invites should be made because of actual results and not what happened a while ago in a big other teamleague. Its the same thing people complain about Grandmasters league. The people who are good 2 month ago are not necessarily the best players right now. So you shouldnt base skill on an event that took place a while ago. And if you watch right now Empire is definitely one, if no the best team in Europe. On paar with the big American Teams easily.
The only problem was that given public exposure, both sides were forced to take a somewhat defensive stand. Aside from the mob's desire for drama, I do think it is a serious conceptual issue regarding the mid- to long-term developtment of the industry, best suited to be discussed in SotG or WoC.
SC2 is at a stage where basically only a handful of well developed parties are running the show. That means, competitive Starcraft 2 is more or less guerilla land. Still without an overarching body of regulation and rules, every current hosting organization holds its share of sculpting the landscape and influencing the future of the scene. While it is true that one can set up whatever ruleset they want for their own tournament, it should be of common interest for every "big player" in the current market, how and what kind of "status quo" is being set up. And discussing that is a good thing.
Some problems are more obvious and easier to agree on, like the need for player booths. For other aspects it is seemingly undesirable to streamline: tournament formats. Different events have different approaches, do well with it, but still do and should get criticism for it (MLG brackets of doom, extended series, NASL divisional play, etc...).
Seen in such light, dealing with the lag issue is more of a philosophical question. Undisputable is the fact it exists. It is a physical constant, not counting the impossible scenario of a direct fibre optic connection between every player.
Assuming a number of players n, per-player latencies X(i), X(j) (with 0<i,j<=n) and total amount of latencies Y = SUM(X(i)), there are two existing modes of conduct:
1) Minimize the total amount of latency Y 2) Minimize the average difference in latency SUM((|X(i)-(X(j)|))/n²
TL;DR So what does that mean in practice? It means that currently having no real physical solution to the problem, the two approaches do either emphasize regional or international play.
The reasons to choose one over another range from player preperation to general smoothness of the event to fundamental understanding of "fairness" and much more.
However, it is to be understood that both are at best a poor approximation compared to on-site-LAN, regardless.
But again, to discuss it is of utter importance, since SC2 in its state of infancy should think about building a consistent framework for the future, and where we would want SC2 to go. That said, opinions differ on the matter and at least for me, both sides have made their stand clear and are understandable in that regard.
EPT
