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On May 02 2011 23:45 drewbie.root wrote:
This solution that TL is requesting would not actually be the most fair. The EU teams would have a massive advantage from this. The delay from KR to NA is10x worse than EU to NA, so the only people that would be at a disadvantage would be the NA teams, who would now have to play in lag for half their matches vs EG. I'm sure every EU team would happily go for your solution, it doesn't affect them at all while screwing over the NA teams.
Sadly though this tournament is hosted by an NA team and they want to give their team the best chance to win, why else would they have 2v2 and ace match?
I agree with TL that there should be a fair solution to the lag issues, but this is really not a viable solution at least for a NA clan league and this really isn't the right place to bring it up. TL still has ret / TLO / Tyler that aren't in Korea at the moment, so they would be able to play in this tournament without any Korean players.
Playing on Korea just for a few matches in the tournament would be such a HUGE disadvantage, none of your opponents will ever have experienced the lag, while you guys do it regularly and it is a completely unreasonable solution.
It would definitely be fair to play on EU for half the games, and that wouldn't bother me one bit.
For me the lag is not an issue between EU/NA so I don't think that its a big advantage to play only on NA, although naniwa says that he has noticeable lag on NA so I guess it is different for each player.
Presuming TL would lend their accounts pre-tournament your point/s are invalid. If they wanted to try and make this tournament equal for all the servers they could probably come to an agreement. Then again, I have no doubts NA teams will get stomped by EU teams anyway so atleast the final will be lag free^^
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I understand EG's position and I understand Liquid's position. Don't see why this is such a big deal though, people are making drama out of small stuff. It's up to both EG and Liquid to run their respective organizations the way they want to.
OT: Great league, looks really cool <3
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I find it to be an obvious failure from EG's side not to come to and agreement with TL in order to have them play in this cup, TL has a huge fan base both for the team in general but also for it individual players. Having TL would give the cup more legitimacy and publicity, matchups like TL vs EG or TL vs Dignitas would attract plenty of viewers compared to MYM vs EG or Millenium which is likely to have less viewers and to be overall one-sided skillwise.
I also find it rather hard to believe that the other teams would be upset with the module presented by TL and spoken for by Jinro, Tyler and more. I am sure if you asked around in MYM, Millenium and the others they would be just fine with that way as well.
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I think the thread has been going on for so long that people might have lost perspective.
On May 02 2011 12:45 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
We wanted KR/NA games to be played 50% KR 50% NA, EU/NA games 50% EU 50% NA and KR/EU games 100% NA.
On May 02 2011 16:29 IdrA wrote:
playing cross server destroys game quality and makes for meaningless results. liquid tries to downplay the effects of latency to make their tournament seem more legitimate, but how many people really think all the players from korea deserved to lose as early as they did to the people they did in tsl?
expecting a foreign team league to allow that to accommodate the one team that has a significant number of players in korea is fuckin silly.
until blizzard fixes battlenet players have to choose to focus on foreign or korean events and deal with the consequences.
This is the crux of the matter.
TL wants a fairer playing field and is willing to take a stand on it. EG thinks this will place an unacceptable burden on the league. It's not that EG disagrees with TL on whether it'd be more fair to server switch. It's that EG doesn't think the league benefits from introducing that much cross-server play (which in Idra's words, "destroys game quality and makes for meaningless results") for the sake of one team, especially since it's from NA to KR and not the more tolerable EU to NA.
I think most people realize that server switching is more fair. The only point of challenge to this is Drewbie's argument, which is that EU players gain an advantage under Jinro's scheme because NA is better for them than it is for KR players. Even so, it seems it'd be a lot fairer to go with Jinro's scheme than the current one, which is that NA players have an universal advantage regardless of whether they're playing against EU or KR players.
But EG's point isn't really about fairness.
I think people need to realize that.
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On May 02 2011 10:12 Xeris wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2011 10:08 Pirat6662001 wrote:
Confused why team Empire did not get invited. Easily would be in top 4 with presented line up.
Nerchio, Kas, Beasty, Happy as main line up with BLy and hobot to call upon is a fearsome team Empire was 7th / 8 in the GCPL . @_@
Are you saying that your argument for not inviting Empire was because of their previous results? If so you are making a mistake, Empire's lineup is better now and it's the team of many top EU players. If you compare them to ROOT, Sixjax, Millenium, and MYM I think you will find that Empire is above their standard, especially the later three.
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Northern Ireland2557 Posts
On May 03 2011 01:35 s4life wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2011 16:29 IdrA wrote:
playing cross server destroys game quality and makes for meaningless results. liquid tries to downplay the effects of latency to make their tournament seem more legitimate, but how many people really think all the players from korea deserved to lose as early as they did to the people they did in tsl?
expecting a foreign team league to allow that to accommodate the one team that has a significant number of players in korea is fuckin silly.
until blizzard fixes battlenet players have to choose to focus on foreign or korean events and deal with the consequences. Koreans seems to destroy pretty much everyone in all FXOpens to this date.. so yeah, so yeah those korean players deserved to lose... you are just butt hurt with TSL, because you lost in the most embarrasing way against Cruncher after bm'ing and bulling him to no end in the game lobby
Where the hell did this come from? You realise that has nothing to do with what you quoted? Cruncher and IdrA are both from NA and hence played on NA... ad hominem attacks are awesome 
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There should be 3 types of threads for the starcraft 2 section on TL.
Thread type 1: Live Report! Obvious reasons.
Thread type 2: Informative! Obvious again!
Thread type3: Troll thread! Because 33 pages of qq and complaining with sprinkles of people who care about the tournament is just wrong! It's disrespectful for this to continue in EG's thread ABOUT the tournament. Should have been taken else where me thinks.
Something for TL players in the spoiler..not bad either.
+ Show Spoiler +OMG guys come back to USA we gots more moneyz than GSL :D pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee 
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So much starcraft to see :333. Great stuff, and great prizepool!
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On May 03 2011 02:19 Engore wrote:
There should be 3 types of threads for the starcraft 2 section on TL.
[...]
Thread type3: Troll thread! Because 33 pages of qq and complaining with sprinkles of people who care about the tournament is just wrong! It's disrespectful for this to continue in EG's thread ABOUT the tournament. Should have been taken else where me thinks.
[...]
It might be wrong, discussing like this. But it certainly is not trolling.
For further reference: http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=130403
There you go.
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I don't get it, EG opts for not accommodating to TLs request for fair conditions - but they don't think think twice about using their site for advertising the league. Seems a bit odd to me.
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On May 03 2011 02:33 Spekulatius wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 02:19 Engore wrote:
There should be 3 types of threads for the starcraft 2 section on TL.
[...]
Thread type3: Troll thread! Because 33 pages of qq and complaining with sprinkles of people who care about the tournament is just wrong! It's disrespectful for this to continue in EG's thread ABOUT the tournament. Should have been taken else where me thinks.
[...]
It might be wrong, discussing like this. But it certainly is not trolling. For further reference: http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=130403There you go.
Metagame. But ya i think it is because everyones trolling EG's tournament about NOT accommodating Liquid. Should have been another post in the forum about how tournaments are ran/cross server and no everyone discussing it in there tournament thread.
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On May 03 2011 02:13 NotSupporting wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2011 10:12 Xeris wrote:On May 02 2011 10:08 Pirat6662001 wrote:
Confused why team Empire did not get invited. Easily would be in top 4 with presented line up.
Nerchio, Kas, Beasty, Happy as main line up with BLy and hobot to call upon is a fearsome team Empire was 7th / 8 in the GCPL . @_@ Are you saying that your argument for not inviting Empire was because of their previous results? If so you are making a mistake, Empire's lineup is better now and it's the team of many top EU players. If you compare them to ROOT, Sixjax, Millenium, and MYM I think you will find that Empire is above their standard, especially the later three.
Uh... first: I had nothing to do with invites, this isn't my tournament.
Second: Yes, I am judging based on previous results. How can you possibly judge based on something else?
Third: Beastyqt isn't very good, he played in GCPL and lost most weeks.
Fourth: Happy has no significant achievements, neither does Aristeo or Bly - so how can you say anything about them?
Last: Ok, Nerchio is not bad, but having one extra player on the team that is decent doesn't warrant them being in this league. They had a chance to show that they didn't suck in GCPL, and they donked it up.
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On May 03 2011 02:36 Longshank wrote:
I don't get it, EG opts for not accommodating to TLs request for fair conditions - but they don't think think twice about using their site for advertising the league. Seems a bit odd to me.
Jinro pointed it out earlier that TL the site and the actual sc2 team are different entity's.
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On May 03 2011 02:37 Engore wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 02:33 Spekulatius wrote:On May 03 2011 02:19 Engore wrote:
There should be 3 types of threads for the starcraft 2 section on TL.
[...]
Thread type3: Troll thread! Because 33 pages of qq and complaining with sprinkles of people who care about the tournament is just wrong! It's disrespectful for this to continue in EG's thread ABOUT the tournament. Should have been taken else where me thinks.
[...]
It might be wrong, discussing like this. But it certainly is not trolling. For further reference: http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=130403There you go. Metagame. But ya i think it is because everyones trolling EG's tournament about NOT accommodating Liquid. Should have been another post in the forum about how tournaments are ran/cross server and no everyone discussing it in there tournament thread.
Yea I agree. The discussion got slightly out of hand. One statement from Teamliquid members in a blog or some disclosed area where they could discuss it with EG would certainly have been a smarter idea. Now the few statements that matter (from EG, TL and other teams) are spread over 33 pages, ensuing misconstructed opinions, false ideas and thus an overheated discussion in the community.
Actually, Azarkon summed up the problem very nicely (see on top of page 34):
+ Show Spoiler +On May 03 2011 02:11 Azarkon wrote:I think the thread has been going on for so long that people might have lost perspective. Show nested quote +On May 02 2011 12:45 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
We wanted KR/NA games to be played 50% KR 50% NA, EU/NA games 50% EU 50% NA and KR/EU games 100% NA. Show nested quote +On May 02 2011 16:29 IdrA wrote:
playing cross server destroys game quality and makes for meaningless results. liquid tries to downplay the effects of latency to make their tournament seem more legitimate, but how many people really think all the players from korea deserved to lose as early as they did to the people they did in tsl?
expecting a foreign team league to allow that to accommodate the one team that has a significant number of players in korea is fuckin silly.
until blizzard fixes battlenet players have to choose to focus on foreign or korean events and deal with the consequences. This is the crux of the matter. TL wants a fairer playing field and is willing to take a stand on it. EG thinks this will place an unacceptable burden on the league. It's not that EG disagrees with TL on whether it'd be more fair to server switch. It's that EG doesn't think the league benefits from introducing that much cross-server play (which in Idra's words, "destroys game quality and makes for meaningless results") for the sake of one team, especially since it's from NA to KR and not the more tolerable EU to NA. I think most people realize that server switching is more fair. The only point of challenge to this is Drewbie's argument, which is that EU players gain an advantage under Jinro's scheme because NA is better for them than it is for KR players. Even so, it seems it'd be a lot fairer to go with Jinro's scheme than the current one, which is that NA players have an universal advantage regardless of whether they're playing against EU or KR players. But EG's point isn't really about fairness. I think people need to realize that.
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Braavos36370 Posts
On May 03 2011 02:36 Longshank wrote:
I don't get it, EG opts for not accommodating to TLs request for fair conditions - but they don't think think twice about using their site for advertising the league. Seems a bit odd to me.
I said this before, but I'll clarify.
TL is in a very unique position right now in the community. We have a pro-team and we're also the main spot for discussion / community interaction in the SC2 scene. I don't think there's ever been a good analogy to the relationship TL has with the community and it's team. It's entirely unique as far as I know.
We try to be as objective as possible when dealing with teams, but obviously we're not going to say we treat everyone the same as we treat Liquid. For instance, we're not going to have an EG or Dignitas Weekly on our front page every week.
However, we will try to do everything in our power to benefit and do what's right for the community. Whether Liquid is in this league or not does not change the fact that it's a $10,000 prize pool league casted and produced by quality staff. The SC2 community is better with it and obviously we will treat it that way.
EG absolutely should not feel that they are "using" TL when they post about a league like this, as it deserves the attention it gets. TL is not the public relations branch for Liquid, we're also a news site for all of StarCraft 2.
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On May 03 2011 02:37 Engore wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 02:33 Spekulatius wrote:On May 03 2011 02:19 Engore wrote:
There should be 3 types of threads for the starcraft 2 section on TL.
[...]
Thread type3: Troll thread! Because 33 pages of qq and complaining with sprinkles of people who care about the tournament is just wrong! It's disrespectful for this to continue in EG's thread ABOUT the tournament. Should have been taken else where me thinks.
[...]
It might be wrong, discussing like this. But it certainly is not trolling. For further reference: http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=130403There you go. Metagame. But ya i think it is because everyones trolling EG's tournament about NOT accommodating Liquid. Should have been another post in the forum about how tournaments are ran/cross server and no everyone discussing it in there tournament thread.
Well, it is more "convenient" to discuss it here, as this is simply an announcement thread, not LR or like a home page. But in the truest sense of forum integrity, maybe the discussion belongs elsewhere, yet I doubt it would have received as much attention (whether or not that's a good thing...).
On the whole, I think EG can do whatever it wants, but if people feel it's not the fairest method, other tournaments/leagues will gain more prominence in the future or EG will adapt as necessary. I think the survival and organizational skills of relatively successful pro-gamers are far in advance of the normal slob gamer, who doesn't play soccer, (e.g. me). In other words, even if this isn't a huge success, life will go on and things should improve. Improvement will undoubtedly be desirable even if it does make all our wildest dreams come true (Idra casting HuK was my wildest dream  ).
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i dont like that teams are just invited. therer should be an opportunity to qualify. i hope its just cause it takes so much time to get this done and not the fear to see all invited teams dropping like invited players at tsl. and i think invites are at all not fair to say my opinion. tsl invited their whole team cause its their tourney. all get kicked out, so you basicly wasted spots for players that cauld do much better? Well it doesn matter, its your tournement and your rules and all who wants to play in it had to accept it.
Anyway, its eg´s house tourney with their rules. i think that they host it is great. it gives EG and their sponsors a great promotion, and ofc sc2 too. they make the tourney they make the rules. simple as it is. you also dont ask the lakers to change their air conditions and lights that your players feel better and have "same" conditions. ok stupid explample ^^
@nanina - your comment on blackdragon myb teamleague, you maybe missed something. well it wouldnt be the first time you miss something. congrats to you that the americans dont know how you acted in wc3. but i think time will show them how mannerd you are. myb you changed but i dont think this is the case, but if you did. wow i never thought this would happen.
@ jinro, what now? you said you never played NA, than you did, you made a post to explain lag. but you said you never played on NA. I dont get it at all. what is the real deal?
And i dont like that NA tries to set their server up as the SERVER you have to play. I understand that US mentality works with his really big ego. but watching just pure results in all games that are played competetive. EU just rapes the US players at myb 99% of time or more in any game? So its kind of silly but is more a mentality thing than enything else. I understand the point that US gives maybe best latency potential. Cause its so fucking huge with a so bad infrostructure and in the other hand we have europe with his really great infrostructure that can provide some times even better but same pings to NA.bnet then a NA player has to his own bnet. (i saw it in dota where i had a better ping to us server then the guy who lives in us).
Myb people dont want to listen to this. But i think teams have to choose where they want to represent themselves, and this thx to blizzard in first way. Myb Liquid did a better job when China releases his full power. Some rumors going on that china will be the same thing to wc3, that was korea to sc:bw. Or myb not but the point that i fully understand and also represent is that a tournement makes their own rules! You have to accept them if you want to play and thats the simpel point.
But thx to all people using this thread to argue. It makes all more visible for the fans that are making this all possible for you and this is something i really like and i hope more teams and tournement stuff will go this way. cause if the fans stop following it, well the show will just stop and nobody wants this at all. (sry for bad english)
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Empire is definitely a very strong team now but you can only invite a team based on previous results. Nerchio himself said that they got strong only after the previous GCPL which means that they have to prove something first before they got invited to prestigious clan leagues.
It's sad though that all of these good tournaments are invite only. If TSL says anything, it's that the highest level of play only can be achieved via qualifications or a mixture of invite+qualifications. Even ignoring all the korean lag issues. The foreigner invitees performed way worse than the qualifiers.
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On May 03 2011 02:37 Xeris wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 02:13 NotSupporting wrote:On May 02 2011 10:12 Xeris wrote:On May 02 2011 10:08 Pirat6662001 wrote:
Confused why team Empire did not get invited. Easily would be in top 4 with presented line up.
Nerchio, Kas, Beasty, Happy as main line up with BLy and hobot to call upon is a fearsome team Empire was 7th / 8 in the GCPL . @_@ Are you saying that your argument for not inviting Empire was because of their previous results? If so you are making a mistake, Empire's lineup is better now and it's the team of many top EU players. If you compare them to ROOT, Sixjax, Millenium, and MYM I think you will find that Empire is above their standard, especially the later three. Uh... first: I had nothing to do with invites, this isn't my tournament. Second: Yes, I am judging based on previous results. How can you possibly judge based on something else? Third: Beastyqt isn't very good, he played in GCPL and lost most weeks. Fourth: Happy has no significant achievements, neither does Aristeo or Bly - so how can you say anything about them? Last: Ok, Nerchio is not bad, but having one extra player on the team that is decent doesn't warrant them being in this league. They had a chance to show that they didn't suck in GCPL, and they donked it up.
Cmon man theres no need to rip a team like that.
-Beastyqt IS a good player, definately good enough to compete at this level lots of good players lost quite often in GCPL its understandable because its a bo1 and it was loaded with good players, someone has to lose.
-Happy has no significant achievements? He was an excellent war3 player who is starting to hit his stride in sc2 he consistently on top of EU GM Ladder and according to TLPD is doing quite well in online cups so far
I can understand if they weren't invited theres only room for 8 teams so it seems like someone will always be left out and there may or may not have been time to hold a qualifier for this. But coming out and saying empire sucked and players on their team are bad is pretty lame and pretty far from the truth, they are a much stronger team than when they played GCPL.
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No Empire..... :S and 2v2 (l0l) ROOT to domiate \o/
I really don't see why there's so much commotion for people simply asking for fair playing conditions in a international tournament.
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EPT
