|
On May 02 2011 22:17 nihlon wrote:
I think it's good that someone gives 2v2 an honest shot in a fairly big tournament. It's easy to say 2v2 won't bring you any good games but I've seen many top level player say they rarely play 2v2 so how can we know how far they can push it if they actually take it seriously?
But they shouldn't be pushed to take it seriously. I'd say that vast majority of them (and every actual top player) want to spend his time getting better at the competitive game format (1v1) and progressing his career.
To start understanding the matchups and coming up with strategies and timings, 2v2 would have to be practiced quite seriously, and spending that much practice time on 2v2 would just be detrimental to pro players, especially now that with NASL and stuff there's AT LEAST 1 important match per week they have to play and prepare for.
|
Nice "if you're not american, fuck you" spirit coming from EG ^^, Nonetheless, will be rooting for ROOT and I think 2v2 sounds like a fucking awesome idea =D
|
Incontrol and his e-g goonies are like The Donald and the coherent TL team // TL site like the Obama Administration.
|
2v2 is a nice spice to the tournament, its nothing serious though as its all about tier 1 units, just something fun to watch I guess
|
On May 02 2011 22:26 thehorsebecomesking wrote:
Incontrol and his e-g goonies are like The Donald and the coherent TL team // TL site like the Obama Administration.
No. Just stop.
Both sides have a reasonable point here. It's EG's tournament and while Liquid can ask for accommodations, EG has no obligation to give them. No one's being irrational or idiotic so this isn't akin to Trump in any way, not that we should be inserting politics into a completely unrelated discussion anyways.
|
yeah some 2v2 action <3 it
great stuff from EG
|
On May 02 2011 22:18 infinity2k9 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2011 22:13 zul wrote:On May 02 2011 22:03 Talin wrote:On May 02 2011 21:22 djWHEAT wrote:
I guess I'm the exact opposite. This is a nice change, and while I do expect some crazy stuff (and mostly tier 1), how can two pros going at it in a 2v2 not be interesting?
...There are no dedicated 2v2 players, so each team either needs to have two pro players use up some of the practice time they have on 2v2 (and I can't imagine anyone being happy about that) - or just get 2 players in a game and have them improvise (which won't bring out the best in 2v2 games). you are just wrong. the 2v2 scene may not get that much of attention, but there are some pretty dedicated teams out there that would love to show their skill in this kind of competition. If the 1v1 pros dont like 2v2 why don`t add a 2v2 Team to the roster? I at least am happy to see some teamaction during the clanwars and if it turnes out to be bad and most viewers hate it after the season is over, there might be changes for the next one. He means dedicated pro's though, and on any of these teams involved of course. I don't think it matters particularly if it's dedicated 2s players or simply 1v1 players playing though because the games will end up looking the same i'm sure. Show nested quote +On May 02 2011 22:17 nihlon wrote:
I think it's good that someone gives 2v2 an honest shot in a fairly big tournament. It's easy to say 2v2 won't bring you any good games but I've seen many top level player say they rarely play 2v2 so how can we know how far they can push it if they actually take it seriously?
Have you played or seen high level 2v2 though? There's no direction to push it in. Unless you're already with a significant advantage then you don't even really get off 1 base.
Define high level 2v2? How many pros have you seen play 2v2 competitivly? Also if you use good maps (non-blizzard) you can get even better chances of good games. You can't say with an honest face that everything there is to figure out in 2v2 have been figured out.
On May 02 2011 22:20 Jotoco wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2011 15:37 Eury wrote:
It would take a hacker about an hour to create a hack that bypass the authentication.
And this is absolutely NOT a good reason to shaft every tournament in existence... Show nested quote +On May 02 2011 15:44 Ultramus wrote:
Okay I'm really confused here and 100% disappointed in TL's response. EG hosts a clan league with a huge prize pool and allows TL the opportunity to participate, and TL absolutely has the right to ask for accommodations, and EG equally did no wrong declining them. The proper response here would be for TL to participate anyways, because not doing so is passing up a HUGE opportunity. This is a perfect example of cutting off your nose to spite your face. To be upset at the organizers decision is nothing short of asinine. To be offered a position and then decline it due to not having server switching is purely arrogant, there are so many other deserving teams who'd love to have the opportunity to play regardless of circumstance.
I'm very disappointed in TL's decision to abstain participation. I'm also saddened that Tyler won't get to participate because of this when he's a member of TL that doesn't have the privilege of playing in the GSL. They basically screwed him over to make a point, when there is no guarantee of them being invited next time, were I the tournament organizers I'd think twice certainly if they plan on being so fickle. This! And if I was a tournament organizer I think I would not even Invite Liquid, anymore. Because Not inviting generates a LOT LESS bad press, than inviting and having this kind of argument. Show nested quote +On May 02 2011 16:01 Xeris wrote:
What this really means is that: Blizzard needs to implement LAN latency in SC2. That would solve 100% of these problems :p Thank you! For agreeing with me. Show nested quote +On May 02 2011 16:29 IdrA wrote:
playing cross server destroys game quality and makes for meaningless results. liquid tries to downplay the effects of latency to make their tournament seem more legitimate, but how many people really think all the players from korea deserved to lose as early as they did to the people they did in tsl?
expecting a foreign team league to allow that to accommodate the one team that has a significant number of players in korea is fuckin silly.
until blizzard fixes battlenet players have to choose to focus on foreign or korean events and deal with the consequences. emphasis mine.
I doubt that. We would have had a shit load of pages of people saying how big of a douche bags EG is for not inviting TL if that would have been the case.
|
There was 2v2 in the machinima clan league.. no one remember?
 Machinima Realm Invitational
it was super boring
I hope better commentators can make it more interesting.. but I doubt it. :/
|
Looking forward to this, the previous EG Masters was awesome and the production quality was amazing, as far as I'm concerned the top3 production list is IPL, EG Masters and GSL.
@the whole drama-thing the only thing I'll say is that I'm looking forward to the next State of the Game, tyler vs incontrol discussion, clash of the titans v2? (only better production) :D
|
On May 02 2011 22:28 hmunkey wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2011 22:26 thehorsebecomesking wrote:
Incontrol and his e-g goonies are like The Donald and the coherent TL team // TL site like the Obama Administration. No. Just stop. Both sides have a reasonable point here. It's EG's tournament and while Liquid can ask for accommodations, EG has no obligation to give them. No one's being irrational or idiotic so this isn't akin to Trump in any way, not that we should be inserting politics into a completely unrelated discussion anyways.
You realize...this entire thread is a political squander about fair playing standards? Just cuz it's not on tv doesn't mean it's not political silly american.
|
I think this thread in general is a good argument in favor of having threads where only pros can post - everyone else can just read.
What started out as a reasonable (maybe slightly ambiguous, slightly flamey, but nothing spectacular) discussion between EG and Liquid members turned into a massive flamewar thanks to constant jabbing by the community, twisting words (on both sides) and trollishly refusing to listen to either side of the argument.
If you collected up $10 each time someone had piped in solely with one of those "I have lost respect for", "isn't this hypocrisy?", and "if my understanding is correct" statements in this thread (and added in $100 for every time someone who has clearly never seen high level 2v2 said "2v2 is going to ruin this") you'd probably have another $10k and could start another league.
I don't know what TL did with the idea of some pro-only threads, but they are a good idea! Look at SoTG - where you've got a pro-level reasoned yet passionate discussion taking place, something that 20,000 people will tune in for this week  - and then look next door at the poisonous bitching and yelling in it's chat channel whenever anything interesting is mentioned. There is something to be said for keeping them separate!
|
I'm going by what high ranked players i've spoken to have said, and what i've read on here. Also simply common sense... 2v2 had the same issue in BW as well (which is why it was removed from proleague, not worth watching hundreds of identical PZ v PZ), and the tier 1 units and concepts are basically the same in SC2.
The non Blizzard maps won't make much of a difference, the rush distances are obviously not big enough still to make anything different viable, it would need some pretty creative map design to try and solve it. There's not much to figure out, that's the problem; i'm just repeating myself at this point.
Just imagine you're in a 2v2. Defensively, you have to build tier 1 units because of simply the threat of a rush and to be able to help your ally in a 2v1, you don't have any other choice. The only other option is aggression with either a cheese (which is the only part where creativity can come into things) or just mass tier 1 units. If you stop massing units to attempt something else, the other team will roll one of you over inevitably. There's no space to do anything else or you get punished. I can't say it anymore clearer than this.
While i find team low tech micro battles to be quite fun usually, it still gets boring, and i think spectators may well be disappointed.
|
Question: Don`t many US pros mention that they play on KR for the purpose of training anyways? If yes, then this might undermine the argument that NA players are at an disadvantage because they are not used to the setting.
Also it`s important to point out that Europeans also stated that the current system favours Na players as even a little delay can be crucial (e.g. in a blink-stalker battle). So I don`t see why there is no effort to make a fairer system.
To those mentioning that TL tries to abuse his power to get an advantageous spot the argument may be easily reversed in that EG uses a system that is beneficial for its team as it is mainly US (with Demuslim as the only exception).
|
Awsome news. And it goes on OneMoreGame Tv whith djWheat, sweet
|
@ Paradice: I almost totally agree. I'd love to contribute to serious discussion but it would probably be complicated to throw trolls out one by one. We need to use this more:
![[image loading]](http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_m1XBf2sUZaA/SqqmgPB6hkI/AAAAAAAAExk/YKrRiNqXgOs/s400/obama+adults+are+talking.jpg)
User was warned for this post
|
If you play from EU on the NA you will have delay and the amount can be different because EU has like 20+ countrys. People from east europe will have way more delay then west europeans. Liquid had the right to ask for fairer conditions NA/KR 50/50 as they were invited and EG has all the right to deny it. If like 50% of the teams are gonna be europeans teams wy not 50/50 played on EU/NA or coinflip!? As for my real my opinion its poorly done by EG for a team league as the half of the teams are from EU.
Anyways i am no fan of any team other then DUCKLOAD! and only hope the players i like in this league will win their games.
Go Go Select and Naniwa!
PS. for the next team league you people should invite Duckload. Whita ra is a one man army!
|
On May 02 2011 12:37 StUfF wrote:
Notice Tyler didn't say "best" solution but "best known".
Who decides which solution is better? Whenever you say "best known", that's your opinion, but others may disagree.
Basketball rules are different for FIBA and NBA (and then again different for NCAA). Which rules are the best? (please do not answer this question)
On May 02 2011 12:37 StUfF wrote:
Can you provide a better known solution? The implementation of this solution in the TSL shows that it can work, and nobody else has come up with anything better.
I guess that is exactly what EG tries to do. Namely a different set of rules. These rules are better for some, worse for some others.
On May 02 2011 12:37 StUfF wrote:
The root of Tyler's frustration I think is because this is his livelihood, it may be entertainment for the watchers but this game is how he makes a living. If you played competitive sports and the competition didn't try their best to provide a "fair" environment I would be pissed off as well.
1980 Olympic games? 1984 Olympic games? some people were unlucky to be in their prime from
1977-1983 yet having no chance of winning (participating) in Olympic games.
On May 02 2011 12:37 StUfF wrote:
EG chose convenience over fairness.
That is your opinion.
On May 02 2011 12:37 StUfF wrote:
Tyler is frustrated and Team`Liquid have abstained because of this.
That is your assumption.
And here is a question to Tyler for SOTG: After the organizers declined the request of alternating servers, would he have been accepted the invitation if it was solely his decision to make?
All of us play by rules that we disagree with (almost every single day). It is called life. And that is my opinion.
|
Northern Ireland2557 Posts
On May 02 2011 22:15 djWHEAT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2011 21:30 cuppatea wrote:
It's interesting like seeing players offrace is interesting but it shouldn't be used to dilute a competitive league. How will it dilute a competitive league when obviously these players will "Play to Win" in the 2v2 portion? I guess I found a new topic for WoC, I don't see why people wouldn't want to at least see some 2v2 in action before completely dismissing it. If it sucks, I'm all for jumping on the OMG LAME bandwagon, but fuck man, a little variety has me very excited.
dude, we HAVE seen 2v2 before, there have been at least 2 leagues, one European and one North American that have had 2v2 in them (think theres a European one that still does actually... i dont follow it so i dont know the details), and they involved exactly what myself and infinity2k9 have described.
For the people that haven't seen high level 2v2 yet it'll be fun for sure for a while, but the novelty will wear off FAST and no one will enjoy it anymore by the time we're halfway through the league.
edit: There was 2v2 in the machinima clan league.. no one remember?
(Wiki2)Machinima Realm Invitational
it was super boring
I hope better commentators can make it more interesting.. but I doubt it. :/
Yeah that was the one I was thinking of. Hopefully the 2v2 is scrapped because even BW had the same issue with 2v2, and early game aggression was much weaker in BW compared to SC2 so I don't see how it could ever evolve. May as well have a 4v4 to decide the clan war if you want variety
|
I don't get the hate towards the decision to mix in one 2v2 game. I think its a fun change to mix things up a little also for the spectators I think it will be really entertaining matches. I could understand it maybe from a player pov, but from a spectator pov I'm looking forward to it.
|
On May 02 2011 22:44 ati wrote:
Who decides which solution is better? Whenever you say "best known", that's your opinion, but others may disagree.
This summarizes your post succinctly and you're right to ask that question. Due to the lack of a central governing body, this should therefore be left to the team leaders, as Nazgul suggested.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
