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I recently ran into a Terran who, over the course of the game, built up 11 barracks(6 with reactors). He would send them out in packs of 6-17 all throughout the game to different points on the map (drops, denying my third, etc).
The problem was that I could never keep his army down long enough to secure my expansion and actually live. I sent innumerable amounts of banelings to kill these marines but they just kept coming.
17 marines every 25 game seconds were pushing towards me and I felt helpless.
My upgrades were 1/2 vs his 2/3. I felt I needed the units to survive and couldn't spare the gas anywhere else.
Have any of the zergs at high level out there run into this style of play? How did you defeat it? Did you defeat it?
Also, if you see any problems with the game in question, please leave notes.
Replay included:
mass marine replay
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Terran here, I at times use FE into 10 Rax against both P and Z. The most trouble I have is against Zergs who turtle up on 2 base and rush for Infestors. The newer Ling/Infestor/Ultra build is a lot more effective vs mass Marines than the old Ling/Bling/Muta.
If Marines keep coming, try to get your 4 gases up and rush for Infestors and turtle with Queen/Crawler/Lings. Be very cautious with your first Infestors, and you will eventually reach a critical mass of Infestors that will stop Marine aggression cold.
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Your macro was terrible - you sitting with 1000 minerals in the 7-8 minute mark. Terran had more workers, more bases and more supply than you. In mid game you sitting on 1k/1k resources without any plans of getting any kind of T2.
So your problem is not marines but your macro.
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Learn to macro, then build banelings.
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infestors man
fungal owns marines
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So you lose one game against mass marines and you make a thread at TL asking for help, before even giving another try after making modifications to your strat based on your own conclusions from watching the replay?
Please only create this kind of threads when you have tried several times.
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On April 15 2011 01:24 LagT_T wrote:
So you lose one game against mass marines and you make a thread at TL asking for help, before even giving another try after making modifications to your strat based on your own conclusions from watching the replay?
Please only create this kind of threads when you have tried several times.
I don't see the strat very often (second time ever) and last time I tried roach ling bane and it got destroy as well.
On my macro:
Look at it this way: I feel pressured, I need to get my third up - save some minerals.
I'm not 'floating' gas, I'm conserving it for banes when I need them - save some gas and some minerals.
While you might think it's 'poor macro', it's not.
It's the same thing as saving to make a bunch of t3 units. It was a conscious decision, not an "I'm a retard and forgot to use my larvae" decision.
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When you ask for advice and people give it, you accept that advice. You don't spit in their face and say how good you are.
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No, it is your macro. He simply made more units than you. He had the economic advantage and used it against you.
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Your macro is why you lost. Also, why do you turtle with all those spines??? Ur gas was also super late and leading to ur lingspeed super late. Hwne u had like 1k minerals u started 2 or 3 gas? U need lingspeed.
I wouldnt worry about the marines cause u didnt lose to marines, u lost the macro game. If ur macro is good it doesnt matter what unit u make, u will win anyway.
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On April 15 2011 01:29 Numy wrote:
When you ask for advice and people give it, you accept that advice. You don't spit in their face and say how good you are.
What?
I didn't feel like I was spitting in anyone's face, but only going through my thought process in the game.
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On April 15 2011 01:30 p03p wrote:
Your macro is why you lost. Also, why do you turtle with all those spines??? Ur gas was also super late and leading to ur lingspeed super late. Hwne u had like 1k minerals u started 2 or 3 gas? U need lingspeed.
I wouldnt worry about the marines cause u didnt lose to marines, u lost the macro game. If ur macro is good it doesnt matter what unit u make, u will win anyway.
Spanishiwa opening.
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On April 15 2011 01:24 LagT_T wrote:
So you lose one game against mass marines and you make a thread at TL asking for help, before even giving another try after making modifications to your strat based on your own conclusions from watching the replay?
Please only create this kind of threads when you have tried several times.
well actually asking for HELP with why he lost or what he should improve in a given replay is one of the most common posts in TL.
And getting an oppinion from someone else is often realy helpful, since most players have a bad gamesense, dont know what the did wrong or are just considering the wrong mistakes as the problem, as in this case.
the player thought is strategie was problematic but his macro was.
without this post, he might have tried to improve his strategie for a long period of time without realy working on his macro.
and finally this kind of thead led to good answers. my personal would be forcing him into massing marines and killing him with a doompush off 2 bases, since a terran army works best in smal groups.
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+ Show Spoiler +On April 15 2011 01:28 rottenpotato wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 01:24 LagT_T wrote:
So you lose one game against mass marines and you make a thread at TL asking for help, before even giving another try after making modifications to your strat based on your own conclusions from watching the replay?
Please only create this kind of threads when you have tried several times. I don't see the strat very often (second time ever) and last time I tried roach ling bane and it got destroy as well. On my macro: Look at it this way: I feel pressured, I need to get my third up - save some minerals. I'm not 'floating' gas, I'm conserving it for banes when I need them - save some gas and some minerals. While you might think it's 'poor macro', it's not. It's the same thing as saving to make a bunch of t3 units. It was a conscious decision, not an "I'm a retard and forgot to use my larvae" decision.
Your saying ur macro is good? Im sorry then, several people said that it is ur macro and u bluntly say its not. Why you bother for advice? And then u say:
I feel pressured, This caused your macro to slip even more.
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As has been said, if you watch your replay you will see you are behind in terms of econ. That's going to lose you games no matter what strategy the other guy uses.
Mass rines is difficult because its pure minerals, and you need gas units to beat them. Banelings are decent but eventually it becomes difficult to macro them up if you don't know what you are doing.
It is a lot easier at lower levels to use roaches with some infestors against builds like this. Infestors are easy to keep alive (well I mean they stay alive), and roaches are easy to macro and are strong against small numbers of rines (its when the rines get to big groups that they are difficult). Roaches, together with blings or infestors (your pick) are extremely strong against this sort of mass marine strategy as he simply keeps trying to throw small armies of rines against you; with infestors, roach durability, and roach strength against these small numbers you can build up your own ball and secure more expansions. Not to mention with infestors/blings, you don't need attack upgrades for your roaches (they are 1 shotting most rines) and you can benefit from the armor.
Eventually you can just go brood lords with roach/ling support and just push him.
It takes a long time to beat this strategy, as counterattacks can be difficult to pull off since his rine production is so high. Like any ZvT, don't rush it; deny his expos, secure expansions and keep them safe, and slowly gradually you will get to brood lords or ultras and you can go in for the kill.
When you have tons of money like you did, everytime you expo spam spine crawlers. They give you time to send your army to defend.
TLDR: Roach infestor is easier than ling/bling because they stay alive so you don't need to macro as hard. Also they are more expensive so its easier to take advantage of economy. In general though, you need to do better at expansion timings and drone building. You basically fell behind in econ, and with the not so hot macro, you died.
Remember, even at diamond level its all about your ability to macro. This is why roaches are so strong for zerg at diamond/masters; they are effective units (but not particularly cost efficient) but so easy to macro up since you need less injects and they cost more money than lings. You should try to incorporate more roaches in your play; they are strong against small pushes like this, can actually kill planetary fortresses, strong against mech (particularly roach/muta vs. thor), and also they are really good to remax on. After a big fight of muta/ling/bling/roach against the terran ball, as long as you can engage well and can kill his army then just spam roaches for the easy remax and amove ftw.
Under pressure, its easy for your macro to slip. In ZvT, roaches are a intermediary remedial for this problem, as they are less larva intensive and more expensive. As long as you can do a good job in droning/expoing, roaches to support bling/muta/ling is a great way to make sure you can actually take advantage of your economic advantage (many zergs fail becuse even with their econ advantage they can't actually use it so well).
But first things first, get that econ up!
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On April 15 2011 01:31 rottenpotato wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 01:30 p03p wrote:
Your macro is why you lost. Also, why do you turtle with all those spines??? Ur gas was also super late and leading to ur lingspeed super late. Hwne u had like 1k minerals u started 2 or 3 gas? U need lingspeed.
I wouldnt worry about the marines cause u didnt lose to marines, u lost the macro game. If ur macro is good it doesnt matter what unit u make, u will win anyway. Spanishiwa opening.
U might take a look into it then.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=207017
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First of all I'm by no means an oracle, but it seems to me that in the early game you have built too many spinecrawlers to defend vs 4 marines, furtheremore you didn't place them well enough, as units could just walk by 2 crawlers on your expansion into your main. In my opinion in the early game you should have relied on a single spinecrawler while building up a little zergling force to match his marine count, but never completely stop drone production. In another words: when the first 4 marine came in you overreacted with static defence, while not making enough military units. On the other hand you overdid zerglings when the next engagement occured.
From there on out you we're a little bit behind economically but still you've managed to accumulate buttload of minerals. I'm actually shocked that your first extractors finished around 9 minute mark and you did not take a 3rd base until around 12:30, which for this kind of economy management seems to me as an obvious mistake, made most likely because you were so defensive and 'scared' after his early pressure.
You never bothered to hang your ovelords in good locations (such as in the space behind his natural expansions to check for when it lands) and to keep watchtowers occupied. It's very important to see what's coming your way, so you can react accordingly with an advance.
I think that you've lost that game because you took your 3rd base way too late and you were not aggressive enough. Also your economy management and overall macro was not good enough (just take a look at your 'average resources' stat and you will understand).
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On April 15 2011 01:28 rottenpotato wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 01:24 LagT_T wrote:
So you lose one game against mass marines and you make a thread at TL asking for help, before even giving another try after making modifications to your strat based on your own conclusions from watching the replay?
Please only create this kind of threads when you have tried several times. On my macro: Look at it this way: I feel pressured, I need to get my third up - save some minerals. I'm not 'floating' gas, I'm conserving it for banes when I need them - save some gas and some minerals. While you might think it's 'poor macro', it's not. It's the same thing as saving to make a bunch of t3 units. It was a conscious decision, not an "I'm a retard and forgot to use my larvae" decision.
Man if you have 1000 minerals banking on 8 minute mark then you are definitelly doing something wrong. Not to mention that you had 3 spines and bunch of lings - so why would you bank so much resources? And if you had no gas don't say you banked them for banelings =)
If you are on situation under preassure where you have no larva and a lot of minerals then throw a 3rd hatch or at least in base hatch.
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if he's not marineking bling ling
if he is marineking infesters
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It's not low level play, whoever had mentioned that.
I've tried roaches against it the last time I was paired against this strategy and it did nothing. The roaches died instantly.
I'm going to try for faster 2/2 and fewer blings into infestors as someone mentioned in this thread, the next time I see it happening.
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EPT
