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I recently ran into a Terran who, over the course of the game, built up 11 barracks(6 with reactors). He would send them out in packs of 6-17 all throughout the game to different points on the map (drops, denying my third, etc).
The problem was that I could never keep his army down long enough to secure my expansion and actually live. I sent innumerable amounts of banelings to kill these marines but they just kept coming.
17 marines every 25 game seconds were pushing towards me and I felt helpless.
My upgrades were 1/2 vs his 2/3. I felt I needed the units to survive and couldn't spare the gas anywhere else.
Have any of the zergs at high level out there run into this style of play? How did you defeat it? Did you defeat it?
Also, if you see any problems with the game in question, please leave notes.
Replay included:
mass marine replay
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Terran here, I at times use FE into 10 Rax against both P and Z. The most trouble I have is against Zergs who turtle up on 2 base and rush for Infestors. The newer Ling/Infestor/Ultra build is a lot more effective vs mass Marines than the old Ling/Bling/Muta.
If Marines keep coming, try to get your 4 gases up and rush for Infestors and turtle with Queen/Crawler/Lings. Be very cautious with your first Infestors, and you will eventually reach a critical mass of Infestors that will stop Marine aggression cold.
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Your macro was terrible - you sitting with 1000 minerals in the 7-8 minute mark. Terran had more workers, more bases and more supply than you. In mid game you sitting on 1k/1k resources without any plans of getting any kind of T2.
So your problem is not marines but your macro.
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Learn to macro, then build banelings.
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infestors man
fungal owns marines
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So you lose one game against mass marines and you make a thread at TL asking for help, before even giving another try after making modifications to your strat based on your own conclusions from watching the replay?
Please only create this kind of threads when you have tried several times.
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On April 15 2011 01:24 LagT_T wrote:
So you lose one game against mass marines and you make a thread at TL asking for help, before even giving another try after making modifications to your strat based on your own conclusions from watching the replay?
Please only create this kind of threads when you have tried several times.
I don't see the strat very often (second time ever) and last time I tried roach ling bane and it got destroy as well.
On my macro:
Look at it this way: I feel pressured, I need to get my third up - save some minerals.
I'm not 'floating' gas, I'm conserving it for banes when I need them - save some gas and some minerals.
While you might think it's 'poor macro', it's not.
It's the same thing as saving to make a bunch of t3 units. It was a conscious decision, not an "I'm a retard and forgot to use my larvae" decision.
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When you ask for advice and people give it, you accept that advice. You don't spit in their face and say how good you are.
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No, it is your macro. He simply made more units than you. He had the economic advantage and used it against you.
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Your macro is why you lost. Also, why do you turtle with all those spines??? Ur gas was also super late and leading to ur lingspeed super late. Hwne u had like 1k minerals u started 2 or 3 gas? U need lingspeed.
I wouldnt worry about the marines cause u didnt lose to marines, u lost the macro game. If ur macro is good it doesnt matter what unit u make, u will win anyway.
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On April 15 2011 01:29 Numy wrote:
When you ask for advice and people give it, you accept that advice. You don't spit in their face and say how good you are.
What?
I didn't feel like I was spitting in anyone's face, but only going through my thought process in the game.
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On April 15 2011 01:30 p03p wrote:
Your macro is why you lost. Also, why do you turtle with all those spines??? Ur gas was also super late and leading to ur lingspeed super late. Hwne u had like 1k minerals u started 2 or 3 gas? U need lingspeed.
I wouldnt worry about the marines cause u didnt lose to marines, u lost the macro game. If ur macro is good it doesnt matter what unit u make, u will win anyway.
Spanishiwa opening.
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On April 15 2011 01:24 LagT_T wrote:
So you lose one game against mass marines and you make a thread at TL asking for help, before even giving another try after making modifications to your strat based on your own conclusions from watching the replay?
Please only create this kind of threads when you have tried several times.
well actually asking for HELP with why he lost or what he should improve in a given replay is one of the most common posts in TL.
And getting an oppinion from someone else is often realy helpful, since most players have a bad gamesense, dont know what the did wrong or are just considering the wrong mistakes as the problem, as in this case.
the player thought is strategie was problematic but his macro was.
without this post, he might have tried to improve his strategie for a long period of time without realy working on his macro.
and finally this kind of thead led to good answers. my personal would be forcing him into massing marines and killing him with a doompush off 2 bases, since a terran army works best in smal groups.
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+ Show Spoiler +On April 15 2011 01:28 rottenpotato wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 01:24 LagT_T wrote:
So you lose one game against mass marines and you make a thread at TL asking for help, before even giving another try after making modifications to your strat based on your own conclusions from watching the replay?
Please only create this kind of threads when you have tried several times. I don't see the strat very often (second time ever) and last time I tried roach ling bane and it got destroy as well. On my macro: Look at it this way: I feel pressured, I need to get my third up - save some minerals. I'm not 'floating' gas, I'm conserving it for banes when I need them - save some gas and some minerals. While you might think it's 'poor macro', it's not. It's the same thing as saving to make a bunch of t3 units. It was a conscious decision, not an "I'm a retard and forgot to use my larvae" decision.
Your saying ur macro is good? Im sorry then, several people said that it is ur macro and u bluntly say its not. Why you bother for advice? And then u say:
I feel pressured, This caused your macro to slip even more.
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As has been said, if you watch your replay you will see you are behind in terms of econ. That's going to lose you games no matter what strategy the other guy uses.
Mass rines is difficult because its pure minerals, and you need gas units to beat them. Banelings are decent but eventually it becomes difficult to macro them up if you don't know what you are doing.
It is a lot easier at lower levels to use roaches with some infestors against builds like this. Infestors are easy to keep alive (well I mean they stay alive), and roaches are easy to macro and are strong against small numbers of rines (its when the rines get to big groups that they are difficult). Roaches, together with blings or infestors (your pick) are extremely strong against this sort of mass marine strategy as he simply keeps trying to throw small armies of rines against you; with infestors, roach durability, and roach strength against these small numbers you can build up your own ball and secure more expansions. Not to mention with infestors/blings, you don't need attack upgrades for your roaches (they are 1 shotting most rines) and you can benefit from the armor.
Eventually you can just go brood lords with roach/ling support and just push him.
It takes a long time to beat this strategy, as counterattacks can be difficult to pull off since his rine production is so high. Like any ZvT, don't rush it; deny his expos, secure expansions and keep them safe, and slowly gradually you will get to brood lords or ultras and you can go in for the kill.
When you have tons of money like you did, everytime you expo spam spine crawlers. They give you time to send your army to defend.
TLDR: Roach infestor is easier than ling/bling because they stay alive so you don't need to macro as hard. Also they are more expensive so its easier to take advantage of economy. In general though, you need to do better at expansion timings and drone building. You basically fell behind in econ, and with the not so hot macro, you died.
Remember, even at diamond level its all about your ability to macro. This is why roaches are so strong for zerg at diamond/masters; they are effective units (but not particularly cost efficient) but so easy to macro up since you need less injects and they cost more money than lings. You should try to incorporate more roaches in your play; they are strong against small pushes like this, can actually kill planetary fortresses, strong against mech (particularly roach/muta vs. thor), and also they are really good to remax on. After a big fight of muta/ling/bling/roach against the terran ball, as long as you can engage well and can kill his army then just spam roaches for the easy remax and amove ftw.
Under pressure, its easy for your macro to slip. In ZvT, roaches are a intermediary remedial for this problem, as they are less larva intensive and more expensive. As long as you can do a good job in droning/expoing, roaches to support bling/muta/ling is a great way to make sure you can actually take advantage of your economic advantage (many zergs fail becuse even with their econ advantage they can't actually use it so well).
But first things first, get that econ up!
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On April 15 2011 01:31 rottenpotato wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 01:30 p03p wrote:
Your macro is why you lost. Also, why do you turtle with all those spines??? Ur gas was also super late and leading to ur lingspeed super late. Hwne u had like 1k minerals u started 2 or 3 gas? U need lingspeed.
I wouldnt worry about the marines cause u didnt lose to marines, u lost the macro game. If ur macro is good it doesnt matter what unit u make, u will win anyway. Spanishiwa opening.
U might take a look into it then.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=207017
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First of all I'm by no means an oracle, but it seems to me that in the early game you have built too many spinecrawlers to defend vs 4 marines, furtheremore you didn't place them well enough, as units could just walk by 2 crawlers on your expansion into your main. In my opinion in the early game you should have relied on a single spinecrawler while building up a little zergling force to match his marine count, but never completely stop drone production. In another words: when the first 4 marine came in you overreacted with static defence, while not making enough military units. On the other hand you overdid zerglings when the next engagement occured.
From there on out you we're a little bit behind economically but still you've managed to accumulate buttload of minerals. I'm actually shocked that your first extractors finished around 9 minute mark and you did not take a 3rd base until around 12:30, which for this kind of economy management seems to me as an obvious mistake, made most likely because you were so defensive and 'scared' after his early pressure.
You never bothered to hang your ovelords in good locations (such as in the space behind his natural expansions to check for when it lands) and to keep watchtowers occupied. It's very important to see what's coming your way, so you can react accordingly with an advance.
I think that you've lost that game because you took your 3rd base way too late and you were not aggressive enough. Also your economy management and overall macro was not good enough (just take a look at your 'average resources' stat and you will understand).
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On April 15 2011 01:28 rottenpotato wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 01:24 LagT_T wrote:
So you lose one game against mass marines and you make a thread at TL asking for help, before even giving another try after making modifications to your strat based on your own conclusions from watching the replay?
Please only create this kind of threads when you have tried several times. On my macro: Look at it this way: I feel pressured, I need to get my third up - save some minerals. I'm not 'floating' gas, I'm conserving it for banes when I need them - save some gas and some minerals. While you might think it's 'poor macro', it's not. It's the same thing as saving to make a bunch of t3 units. It was a conscious decision, not an "I'm a retard and forgot to use my larvae" decision.
Man if you have 1000 minerals banking on 8 minute mark then you are definitelly doing something wrong. Not to mention that you had 3 spines and bunch of lings - so why would you bank so much resources? And if you had no gas don't say you banked them for banelings =)
If you are on situation under preassure where you have no larva and a lot of minerals then throw a 3rd hatch or at least in base hatch.
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if he's not marineking bling ling
if he is marineking infesters
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It's not low level play, whoever had mentioned that.
I've tried roaches against it the last time I was paired against this strategy and it did nothing. The roaches died instantly.
I'm going to try for faster 2/2 and fewer blings into infestors as someone mentioned in this thread, the next time I see it happening.
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Bling + Infestor = Mass Marine loses.
Watched the replay. I'm not saying your macro was bad, but at points he had a bigger army than you and you had lots of minerals in the bank.
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
Split up your banelings at each base with some lings to absorb the damage. If Terran splits up his army, he won't be able to do split micro vs blings in more than 1 location.
Upgrades are crucial so get double evo ASAP. Skip muta and get infestor instead. Ling/bling is the proper counter to mass marines. Use the lings to surround and prevent Terran from splitting his rines properly.
No matter what, its going to come down to basic mechanics for both sides. Micro, macro, multitasking are all crucial.
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You need infestors. Bad.
You also needed to have a stronger econ, your macro was pretty bad. Drop another hatch or two even just to keep up with minerals and lings.
Pure marine should get absolutely buttfucking crushed by ling/bling/infestor. You were just far behind and got railed on by a silly strat that only works when far ahead.
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On April 15 2011 01:50 rottenpotato wrote:
It's not low level play, whoever had mentioned that.
I've tried roaches against it the last time I was paired against this strategy and it did nothing. The roaches died instantly.
I'm going to try for faster 2/2 and fewer blings into infestors as someone mentioned in this thread, the next time I see it happening.
Hmm well obviously I don't know about your play in general, but that game was pretty bad, by you at least.
Your spines could not protect your ramp. If his micro were less bad, he would have killed so many drones before losing marine. As it was, he was still ahead in econ after the pressure anyways. So many of your blings did useless things. For example, many of them force targetted a planetary to 15%... but it didnt die. So many chased after marines through a small crack, and got no bull at all.
And I still dont get why you call having over 1k minerals and no gas at like 50 supply a conscious good decision and not a terrible one, especially considering you never went below that, never had enough units to threaten/pressure the terran, and never could take your third.
Besides, if you are going hive tech, there is no need to save up THAT much minerals so early especially if you will never spend it within the next 10 minutes, which you didn't, gas is the key anyways.
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On April 15 2011 02:08 EtherealDeath wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 01:50 rottenpotato wrote:
It's not low level play, whoever had mentioned that.
I've tried roaches against it the last time I was paired against this strategy and it did nothing. The roaches died instantly.
I'm going to try for faster 2/2 and fewer blings into infestors as someone mentioned in this thread, the next time I see it happening. Hmm well obviously I don't know about your play in general, but that game was pretty bad, by you at least. Your spines could not protect your ramp. If his micro were less bad, he would have killed so many drones before losing marine. As it was, he was still ahead in econ after the pressure anyways. So many of your blings did useless things. For example, many of them force targetted a planetary to 15%... but it didnt die. So many chased after marines through a small crack, and got no bull at all. And I still dont get why you call having over 1k minerals and no gas at like 50 supply a conscious good decision and not a terrible one, especially considering you never went below that, never had enough units to threaten/pressure the terran, and never could take your third. Besides, if you are going hive tech, there is no need to save up THAT much minerals so early especially if you will never spend it within the next 10 minutes, which you didn't, gas is the key anyways.
I looked at the replay again and what happened was that I dropped a third hatch and apparently didn't hotkey it right away and therefore wasn't using it for a good portion of the game.
While I was trying to save minerals, it shouldn't have been that high.
Was it then just a unit count number in the early game that progressed to worse and worse conditions?
Should I definitely have gone for faster upgrades over more blings?
I'm still debating the infestors in this matchup because marines spread out so quickly and it's a whole pack of them every x seconds. Would the gas be worth it over let's say..ultras(assuming I'm able to get the third up safely and tech with the faster upgrades).
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On April 15 2011 02:16 rottenpotato wrote:
I'm still debating the infestors in this matchup because marines spread out so quickly and it's a whole pack of them every x seconds. Would the gas be worth it over let's say..ultras(assuming I'm able to get the third up safely and tech with the faster upgrades).
Yes... the gas would be worth it because it's hard / near impossible to split marines against infestors unless you do it ahead of time... and they hold the units in place so your army rolls over the 10hp marines.
If he's going mass marines you might not even have ultras in time... and a couple of ultras will not do anything if he scouts it and starts building marauders from the 10 rax.
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On April 15 2011 02:22 Genome852 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 02:16 rottenpotato wrote:
I'm still debating the infestors in this matchup because marines spread out so quickly and it's a whole pack of them every x seconds. Would the gas be worth it over let's say..ultras(assuming I'm able to get the third up safely and tech with the faster upgrades). Yes... the gas would be worth it because it's hard / near impossible to split marines against infestors unless you do it ahead of time... and they hold the units in place so your army rolls over the 10hp marines. If he's going mass marines you might not even have ultras in time... and a couple of ultras will not do anything if he scouts it and starts building marauders from the 10 rax. Ultras also don't do very much damage against marines, and with stim can be kited. While they don't get owned by marines quite as much as they get owned by marauders, pure marine can dominate ultras pretty handily.
In ling/bling vs. marine fights, upgrades are everything. Having an upgrade advantage means that lings can just kill marines without bling help (assuming you engage in a decent situation), while being down in upgrades means your lings will get completely smoked. I'm pretty sure double evo chamber for fast double upgrades is a necessary part of the spanishiwa build, against any unit comp.
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Infestor play is really the way to go against this. If he doesn't have a lot of siege tanks, then run forward and fungal, retreat, and repeat. The way you write this it makes it seem like he didn't have medivacs or tanks. Either way, fungal is still the answer. Just play it safe before taking more expansions. If you're 2 base vs 2 base until infestors, that can actually be okay.
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You don't necessarily need mass infestors either.
Getting a few infestors fast will probably help, but after that you want to value ling upgrades over infestors.
Another point that people aren't mentioning is Roaches.
Roaches are pretty mediocre, but against strictly Marines, and in small groups, they can do rather well.
I have taken to opening more heavily on Roaches strictly in the early portions of ZvT. I will almost always hit about 10 roaches then never make another roach unless I see a specific need for them.
These 10 roaches will hold up to 20 marines at bay easily while you reinforce with ling/bling or work your way in to some solid Lair tech. Either way, if he is constantly poking at you with small numbers of marines, roaches are actually quite good.
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Thanks for all the advice everyone.
Like I said earlier I hadn't run into this all that often and on the spot was at a loss of what to actually do to counter it.
This thread opened up a few ideas.
Thanks
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On April 15 2011 02:31 JDub wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 02:22 Genome852 wrote:On April 15 2011 02:16 rottenpotato wrote:
I'm still debating the infestors in this matchup because marines spread out so quickly and it's a whole pack of them every x seconds. Would the gas be worth it over let's say..ultras(assuming I'm able to get the third up safely and tech with the faster upgrades). Yes... the gas would be worth it because it's hard / near impossible to split marines against infestors unless you do it ahead of time... and they hold the units in place so your army rolls over the 10hp marines. If he's going mass marines you might not even have ultras in time... and a couple of ultras will not do anything if he scouts it and starts building marauders from the 10 rax. Ultras also don't do very much damage against marines, and with stim can be kited. While they don't get owned by marines quite as much as they get owned by marauders, pure marine can dominate ultras pretty handily.
Fully upgraded ultras can tank a lot of damage from pure marines... but like I said I don't think that's what the OP should be aiming for anyways. Infestors are better in this situation in almost every case I think.
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You need to spread your creep more. Very important. Banelings on creep helps that much more.. Sling bling is fine, infestors are optional. You just need to learn how to micro. You should have a good mix of speedlings and banelings. I noticed you had alot of banelings and not enough speedlings. If he was a decent terran he would micro his marines. Use your speedlings to surround while your banelings roll in.Your macro could've been better. Map control is important. Try to grab xel naga towers to get a good sense of when to expand.
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On April 15 2011 02:36 Genome852 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 02:31 JDub wrote:On April 15 2011 02:22 Genome852 wrote:On April 15 2011 02:16 rottenpotato wrote:
I'm still debating the infestors in this matchup because marines spread out so quickly and it's a whole pack of them every x seconds. Would the gas be worth it over let's say..ultras(assuming I'm able to get the third up safely and tech with the faster upgrades). Yes... the gas would be worth it because it's hard / near impossible to split marines against infestors unless you do it ahead of time... and they hold the units in place so your army rolls over the 10hp marines. If he's going mass marines you might not even have ultras in time... and a couple of ultras will not do anything if he scouts it and starts building marauders from the 10 rax. Ultras also don't do very much damage against marines, and with stim can be kited. While they don't get owned by marines quite as much as they get owned by marauders, pure marine can dominate ultras pretty handily. Fully upgraded ultras can tank a lot of damage from pure marines... but like I said I don't think that's what the OP should be aiming for anyways. Infestors are better in this situation in almost every case I think.
That's really what I aim for in every game nowadays.
I've been playing a Spanishiwa-style opening into pure lings/blings/ultras - no infestors.
It's absolutely dominating Protoss and has hit or miss (usually hit) results against Terran. Normally I'm 2/2 right away but, like I said earlier, I felt very pressured at every point and knew I was falling behind with the third getting raped over and over. I wasn't sure of the right combo to make this work against mass marines.
I may try the roach thing if the faster upgrades into a couple infestors doesn't work out (if I see this strat used two more times against me, that is).
Thanks again
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Macro issues aside, I want to focus on decision making.
I had a similar zvt to this. Same map, he opened with the same BO. 2 rax into drop harass. I was behind pretty much the whole game. What saved me though was constant aggression and infestors. With good micro infestors are so cost efficient that they are really your best bet to make a come back. I actually skipped banelings for a short while to get those early infestors with upgrades out. With my first 2-3 infestors i would be aggressive and move out with 30-40 lings. Sacrifice the lings and pull back the infestors, each time moving out with a greater number of infestors and eventually working banelings in. This prevents him from hitting a critical amount of marines and makes you the aggressor, giving you the psychological advantage, map control and so forth.
Also general things such as better overlord placement to anticipate drops and getting your early crawlers closer to your ramp would have put you ahead in the mid game. Spanishwa also recommends an early 2-4 lings to deal with harassment. And with 4 queens creep spread is vital to early game defense. 2-4 lings and a queen blocking your ramp will prevent any shenanigans in your main.
I question your decision making when you chose to attack the planetary fortress. Its almost never worth it to assault it with banelings, just a baneling or two short and you've wasted so many precious minerals and gas. I would always recommend hitting his natural after wiping his army like that. Its unlikely he can rebuild his army to a sufficient number of marines if your being very aggressive.
Edit- I was using spanishwas build too.
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Northern Ireland117 Posts
I've faught this style quite alot to be fair its very popular with terrans who dont want to learn to play properly and they think stutter steping with stim makes them look amazing. But they have terrible muti tasking to be fair.
It sounds to me like your problem was mutitasking as well. If you have 1000 minerals unspent in the first 10 min something is seriously wrong.
What you will find if you look at replays of terrans like this you should look at the Units Lost tab they arent being even close to being cost effective. I personally thinkg you have to go ling bling muta. Muta are soooooooooooooooooo important to fight this.
The the terran has to take alot of bases to keep up the tempo but you HAVE to kill his scv's and deny things with your mutas. If he is playing very agressive i like to take a macro hatch before my 3rd because you will be to reliant on the production of a hatch you will not be able to defent that well. Just keep up your mutitasking and macro while you micro your batlles.
For every larva inject keep up supply units drones as well as scout.
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
On April 15 2011 02:50 redbrain wrote:
I've faught this style quite alot to be fair its very popular with terrans who dont want to learn to play properly and they think stutter steping with stim makes them look amazing. But they have terrible muti tasking to be fair.
It sounds to me like your problem was mutitasking as well. If you have 1000 minerals unspent in the first 10 min something is seriously wrong.
What you will find if you look at replays of terrans like this you should look at the Units Lost tab they arent being even close to being cost effective. I personally thinkg you have to go ling bling muta. Muta are soooooooooooooooooo important to fight this.
The the terran has to take alot of bases to keep up the tempo but you HAVE to kill his scv's and deny things with your mutas. If he is playing very agressive i like to take a macro hatch before my 3rd because you will be to reliant on the production of a hatch you will not be able to defent that well. Just keep up your mutitasking and macro while you micro your batlles.
For every larva inject keep up supply units drones as well as scout.
Lol? You need to have perfect macro as Terran to win with this style. Don't make assumptions when you play against scrubs.
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Banelings are extreamly cost effective here.
Early game, if I see mass bio, I use the s'lings to create a wall so that the bio ball can't run away from the Banelings coming in to destroy them.
(BANELINGS)---> [BIOBALL] XXXXX <---speedlings told to move here then an attack command is issued.
To ensure sucess, ENGAGE ON CREEP. You need the speed advantage to make sure you have enough s'lings over to morph into more banelings and push out more s'lings. Begin working on techin to infestors. Use SS'lings to gain vision and map control.
Using the ideas from Spanishiwa's build, 4 queens (two injecting, two spreading creep) can get creep spread STUPID fast. Creep spread and good overlord placement are key to success as much as your Ling/Baneling/Infestor Micro.
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On April 15 2011 01:50 rottenpotato wrote:
It's not low level play, whoever had mentioned that.
I've tried roaches against it the last time I was paired against this strategy and it did nothing. The roaches died instantly.
I'm going to try for faster 2/2 and fewer blings into infestors as someone mentioned in this thread, the next time I see it happening.
If your roaches are dying instantly to 17 marines someting is terribly wrong and you must have only like, a handleful of roaches. A dozen roaches with carapace upgrades can take an enormous beating from marines for infestors/lings to do their job. Also its not just pure roach; its roach baneling/roach infestor. Eventually the roach ball builds up until you can steamroll these mini rine pushes. If he stops to build up an army of marines, it only makes your infestors better when he pushes and it gives you time and space to expand.
I used to try fighting pure rine with just ling/blings but its a pain and very tedious when they keep killing your creep and you have to keep injecting and have to keep making blings and then respread creep.
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On April 15 2011 03:42 infinity21 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 02:50 redbrain wrote:
I've faught this style quite alot to be fair its very popular with terrans who dont want to learn to play properly and they think stutter steping with stim makes them look amazing. But they have terrible muti tasking to be fair.
It sounds to me like your problem was mutitasking as well. If you have 1000 minerals unspent in the first 10 min something is seriously wrong.
What you will find if you look at replays of terrans like this you should look at the Units Lost tab they arent being even close to being cost effective. I personally thinkg you have to go ling bling muta. Muta are soooooooooooooooooo important to fight this.
The the terran has to take alot of bases to keep up the tempo but you HAVE to kill his scv's and deny things with your mutas. If he is playing very agressive i like to take a macro hatch before my 3rd because you will be to reliant on the production of a hatch you will not be able to defent that well. Just keep up your mutitasking and macro while you micro your batlles.
For every larva inject keep up supply units drones as well as scout. Lol? You need to have perfect macro as Terran to win with this style. Don't make assumptions when you play against scrubs.
Scrubs? I was top400 last season broski 
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On April 15 2011 02:50 redbrain wrote:
I've faught this style quite alot to be fair its very popular with terrans who dont want to learn to play properly and they think stutter steping with stim makes them look amazing. But they have terrible muti tasking to be fair.
It sounds to me like your problem was mutitasking as well. If you have 1000 minerals unspent in the first 10 min something is seriously wrong.
What you will find if you look at replays of terrans like this you should look at the Units Lost tab they arent being even close to being cost effective. I personally thinkg you have to go ling bling muta. Muta are soooooooooooooooooo important to fight this.
The the terran has to take alot of bases to keep up the tempo but you HAVE to kill his scv's and deny things with your mutas. If he is playing very agressive i like to take a macro hatch before my 3rd because you will be to reliant on the production of a hatch you will not be able to defent that well. Just keep up your mutitasking and macro while you micro your batlles.
For every larva inject keep up supply units drones as well as scout.
You are really suggesting mutas against pure-marine-with-fast-upgrades play?
Also, please elaborate on the bolded part. What makes Terran players who micro their units play "not properly"? So people complain about A-moving, and also complain when people micro. Interesting.
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x2. Mutas are a pretty bad response to mass marine/upgrades
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On April 15 2011 01:28 rottenpotato wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 01:24 LagT_T wrote:
So you lose one game against mass marines and you make a thread at TL asking for help, before even giving another try after making modifications to your strat based on your own conclusions from watching the replay?
Please only create this kind of threads when you have tried several times. I don't see the strat very often (second time ever) and last time I tried roach ling bane and it got destroy as well. On my macro: Look at it this way: I feel pressured, I need to get my third up - save some minerals. I'm not 'floating' gas, I'm conserving it for banes when I need them - save some gas and some minerals. While you might think it's 'poor macro', it's not.
It's the same thing as saving to make a bunch of t3 units. It was a conscious decision, not an "I'm a retard and forgot to use my larvae" decision.
We're not calling you a retard, but your lack of macro is the reason you lost.
Whether you made the conscious decision *not* to macro or whether it's because you felt pressured and uncomfortable and actually forgot to is irrelevant.
You lost because you were floating a lot of resources, which would have helped you stop that pressure. You never have to save that much money that early on in the game.
Speedlings, banelings, infestors.
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
On April 15 2011 04:09 rottenpotato wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 03:42 infinity21 wrote:On April 15 2011 02:50 redbrain wrote:
I've faught this style quite alot to be fair its very popular with terrans who dont want to learn to play properly and they think stutter steping with stim makes them look amazing. But they have terrible muti tasking to be fair.
It sounds to me like your problem was mutitasking as well. If you have 1000 minerals unspent in the first 10 min something is seriously wrong.
What you will find if you look at replays of terrans like this you should look at the Units Lost tab they arent being even close to being cost effective. I personally thinkg you have to go ling bling muta. Muta are soooooooooooooooooo important to fight this.
The the terran has to take alot of bases to keep up the tempo but you HAVE to kill his scv's and deny things with your mutas. If he is playing very agressive i like to take a macro hatch before my 3rd because you will be to reliant on the production of a hatch you will not be able to defent that well. Just keep up your mutitasking and macro while you micro your batlles.
For every larva inject keep up supply units drones as well as scout. Lol? You need to have perfect macro as Terran to win with this style. Don't make assumptions when you play against scrubs. Scrubs? I was top400 last season broski
What's your id? You're obviously playing scrubs if they can't even keep resources lost equal with zerg. Think before you generalize a specific race and insult them.
Edit: forget to change your account? Why are you responding to a statement thats directed at redbrain?
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On April 15 2011 04:18 infinity21 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 04:09 rottenpotato wrote:On April 15 2011 03:42 infinity21 wrote:On April 15 2011 02:50 redbrain wrote:
I've faught this style quite alot to be fair its very popular with terrans who dont want to learn to play properly and they think stutter steping with stim makes them look amazing. But they have terrible muti tasking to be fair.
It sounds to me like your problem was mutitasking as well. If you have 1000 minerals unspent in the first 10 min something is seriously wrong.
What you will find if you look at replays of terrans like this you should look at the Units Lost tab they arent being even close to being cost effective. I personally thinkg you have to go ling bling muta. Muta are soooooooooooooooooo important to fight this.
The the terran has to take alot of bases to keep up the tempo but you HAVE to kill his scv's and deny things with your mutas. If he is playing very agressive i like to take a macro hatch before my 3rd because you will be to reliant on the production of a hatch you will not be able to defent that well. Just keep up your mutitasking and macro while you micro your batlles.
For every larva inject keep up supply units drones as well as scout. Lol? You need to have perfect macro as Terran to win with this style. Don't make assumptions when you play against scrubs. Scrubs? I was top400 last season broski What's your id? You're obviously playing scrubs if they can't even keep resources lost equal with zerg. Think before you generalize a specific race and insult them. Edit: forget to change your account? Why are you responding to a statement thats directed at redbrain?
Oh, sounded like it was directed to me.
I'm the only "Yogurtpop" and "Rottenpotato" in the world. rotten mmr 3800 S1.
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Imho close the topic, nothing but flaming going on.
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On April 15 2011 01:31 rottenpotato wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 01:30 p03p wrote:
Your macro is why you lost. Also, why do you turtle with all those spines??? Ur gas was also super late and leading to ur lingspeed super late. Hwne u had like 1k minerals u started 2 or 3 gas? U need lingspeed.
I wouldnt worry about the marines cause u didnt lose to marines, u lost the macro game. If ur macro is good it doesnt matter what unit u make, u will win anyway. Spanishiwa opening.
The Spanishiwa opening is very much built on hardcore macro, which you lacked. The early game should have revolved around you alternating drones and lings, and you didn't spend your money efficiently, like the others have said. If you can't make enough banelings, but your money is piling, then just make more lings and your gas will go up while your lings are building.
You should have taken map control by making even more lings, and spreading creep viciously. That way, you can safely tech to infestors, which will EASILY destroy marines.
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Did i watch replay?
Yes
If you are top 400 as you said were, I am very disappointed at the skill of top 400. You have the worst reaction time. Your banelings and speedlings just sit there like DUHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH drooling even after marines entered your territory for like... 10 seconds??? and yea your macro slipped. How?? ohhh iunno 2 bases when terrans 3 bases?? and you think banelings are the only counter? you had so many minerals and you can't spared 150 min for roach warren? seriously? and you said you were saving for lings? come on man you weren't even injecting properly and you can't even make 1000 min worth of lings out of 2 hatcheries. I have never heard of someone who lost map control to terrans. Seomeone tried this to me so i just poped out 200/200 lings and banelings and roll them over. you could have easily done that and won even with 0/0
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Rotten, You were hanging 1k minerals almost 90% of the game. macro is bad. very very bad.. you made a BILLION spinecrawlers which could have been more useful as drones... you over reacted and your timings were off becuase of it. there are a large number of units/strategys you can use to rape simple mass rine. like using your banelings properly.. with a flank from lings... or getting roaches with a few bainlings tossed in. Roaches do well against marines. Also its more or less important for you to work on setting up flanks so you can crush his army and counter his nat/main.
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On April 15 2011 01:28 rottenpotato wrote:
I'm not 'floating' gas, I'm conserving it for banes when I need them - save some gas and some minerals.
While you might think it's 'poor macro', it's not.
It's the same thing as saving to make a bunch of t3 units. It was a conscious decision, not an "I'm a retard and forgot to use my larvae" decision.
but that makes no sense. you're unwilling to spend your resources because you might need it for things you already have access to? i do not understand your logic. that's completely unlike stockpiling resources for t3 units, as those are things you are waiting to have access to.
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So you lose one game against mass marines and you make a thread at TL asking for help, before even giving another try after making modifications to your strat based on your own conclusions from watching the replay?
Please only create this kind of threads when you have tried several times.
Um, may be he lost more? And why's that matter? He asked for help. There is no TL rule saying you need to "try several times to fix your problem yourself" before posting for help.
but that makes no sense. you're unwilling to spend your resources because you might need it for things you already have access to? i do not understand your logic. that's completely unlike stockpiling resources for t3 units, as those are things you are waiting to have access to.
I think he means he was waiting to see if he could get away with more drones or if he needed to turn them into army units instead. I don't think you should have as many minerals as you did, but I'm not a top 400 so I wouldn't know.
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All I have to say that hasn't been said and repeated four times already is this:
Do not wait until this happens again. Go to the TL channel or any other channel in game and ask for someone to let you practice against this. Practice and practice and practice it until you get it down and you understand whats strong and weak for you personally instead of the cookie cutter advice you'll find in most posts.
Practice this matchup.
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On April 15 2011 12:49 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
I think he means he was waiting to see if he could get away with more drones or if he needed to turn them into army units instead. I don't think you should have as many minerals as you did, but I'm not a top 400 so I wouldn't know.
that still does not make any sense. he obviously wasn't opposed to spawning a ton of lings and if he wanted to be larva efficient, he'd morph those to banes.
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Ok I'm going to close this now so that I don't have to ban everyone posting in this thread.
OP, please read the stickied threads.
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EPT
