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On February 23 2011 01:00 Lingy wrote:
I feel like that change could have an effect on zvz.
In theory in zvz, with perfect micro hydra infestor can beat roaches without losing a single hydra, but at this moment it is allmost impossible to do. But with your change this could become so mcuh easier. I realise that there is very rarely a pure roach army, but if you can just trap the hydras behind whilst the roaches a decimated for no damage dealt, then the hydras in the back should be no problem. this isn't necessarily a problem, but it is a change to the matchup .
I have no idea what a good fix would be or if it even needs one.
Umm, it's really not impossible to do, first you fungal, then you a-move the hydras, they stay out of range of the roaches. The thing is if you can get hydra infestor in ZvZ without dying, you're already so far ahead. I do like the idea of buffing the hydra, but I think this would make hydras too much beter than infestors in ZvZ because you could stack them behind so many roaches.
Edit:
I would say my biggest problem with the hydra right now is the thin timing in both non-mirrors combined with mobility. Hydras are actually very powerful as you can see in some ZvP timings before colossus are out, but as soon as the army has colossus support you'd almost rather have a roach in your army which is kind of sad. I think even a buff to the way creep worked could make them incredibly powerful such as letting tumors spawn other tumors 5 seconds faster (even without changing spread speed). This would make it almost unchanged at low level, but strong players could show even more ridiculous creep spread.
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I don't see this happening. At Blizzcon, didn't Dustin Browder talk about how they are very skeptical to buff any unit that can attack both air and ground? He mentioned that as one of the reasons why they don't want to buff the stalker if I'm not mistaken. Add on the fact that the hydra is one of the highest dps units in the game and you have a recipe for a unit that most likely won't receive a buff.
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Um.
Of course voids and colossi should counter hydras. That's high cost tier 2.5/tier 3 units . -___-
I never understood when Zerg or Terran complain about losing to a Toss who techs up to hts/colossi/carriers/etc, while they stay on roach/hydra or marine/marauder.
.....
You really need to think before complaining about WHY tier 3 > hydra.
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On February 23 2011 01:04 HowardRoark wrote:
I like your idea, really much. But I do not think we even need to increase the research time.
May I theorycraft some aswell: I would love to remove the corruptor completely and let Broodlords evolve from Mutalisk. Instead of the corruptor I want a scourge like non-splash bonus-to-massive unit. Spectatorwise I think this would add a lot to ZvP. It could be expensive, and do good damage. This would create Plaguuuh-moments, will it hit the Colloss or will it get sniped.
I personally think that scourge would really turn zerg completely around. As it is, zerg really has no effective options vs Protoss air, and really don't match up well with T either, due to marines and massive viking range. I think that a baneling like air unit would be amazing.
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1. The Hydras have a range of 6 against the Void Ray's 6. This is an even match in theory, but the problem is that gigantic blob of Stalkers/Zealots and Roaches sitting in front of the hydras. Void rays stack, and hydras require a concave that is impossible because the roaches have already established it. How many times have you, as a Zerg player, targeted the Void Rays with your hydras to have them bunch up, and then the Protoss moves the Void rays back 1 range and the colossus instantly melt your hydras?
You can't expect to win a match up in a counter (soft or hard) based game by having less options available to you than the opponent. Yes Hydras and Roaches melt gateway units, that's obvious, but now you're bringing up the protoss player has Colossi and Void rays? That is two different tech paths for them to take, whats to stop you from getting corruptors? Is Colossi/Void Ray balanced? That's not my call to make, but you can't say it's unbalanced based on using just roaches and hydras.
2. The Hydras have a range of 6 against the Colossus' 9. The Colossus is the ultimate sniper. They can walk through the protoss ball with ease and thus can dictate range. They usually sit back and wail the roaches and hydras. This works because the massive 3 range difference allows the stalker ball the completely block the hydras from shooting the colossus. If it happens that the hydras can, the colossus can simply move back and choose to melt the roaches.
Right and again, corruptors are the counter to that. You're not going to ever win a even or slightly in your favor fight of hydras vs colossi, thats like expecting to win a immortal vs roach, it's a counter amigo. Roach burrow micro helps, I'm not saying it's the solution to colossi/voidray, but once you're at 2/2 roaches are very cost effective.
3. The hydralisks take the position of glass cannons in this matchup. The glass cannon (ie. fire mages in WoW,) are supposed to have tanks and peelers to take damage away from them for them to function correctly. This does not exist in the ZvP matchup in any other form other than the Ultralisks. Whats wrong with ultralisks? They come too late for the 200/200 Protoss deathball, and they clump hardcore. Without proper melee tanks, the roaches are not very efficient at keeping the hydralisks safe as they do in the ZvZ matchup.
Roaches again are your tanks.
The idea that something is wrong with hydras is correct, but you can't possibly expect balance changes based off the ideas you brought to the table. It's been talked about before in other threads what they need (offspeed movement upgrade/+20 hp upgrade/+increase the range upgrade by one) but you've got to remember that hydras shred gateway units if properly used and they're not the end all unit to be used and just pumped out without any support.
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On February 23 2011 01:09 SmoKim wrote:
could you imagine a speed upgrade for Hive tech? mmmmmh <3
I have sex dreams about that !
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On February 23 2011 01:13 mytent wrote:
Um.
Of course voids and colossi should counter hydras. That's high cost tier 2.5/tier 3 units . -___-
I never understood when Zerg or Terran complain about losing to a Toss who techs up to hts/colossi/carriers/etc, while they stay on roach/hydra or marine/marauder.
.....
You really need to think before complaining about WHY tier 3 > hydra.
Try killing colossus voidray with brood lord / ultralisks.... With no antiair.
@CidO, I'm basing this on IdrA and Artosis' comment. They may be wrong, but I'll take their word for now. Corrupters do NOT counter either units in the death ball.
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I see a potential problem in ZvZ. Muta/ling/bling is in an extremely precarious balance with roach/hydra/infestor. Basically, the only reason the former is still viable in response to the latter is because banelings are so effective against hydras. Increasing the range of hydras would allow banelings to be much more easily sniped off from behind the roaches.
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On February 23 2011 01:13 mytent wrote:
Um.
Of course voids and colossi should counter hydras. That's high cost tier 2.5/tier 3 units . -___-
I never understood when Zerg or Terran complain about losing to a Toss who techs up to hts/colossi/carriers/etc, while they stay on roach/hydra or marine/marauder.
.....
You really need to think before complaining about WHY tier 3 > hydra.
You need to learn something about Starcraft.
This is not Warcraft, where the "tier" stage of the unit defines the strenght of the army.
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On February 23 2011 01:09 SmoKim wrote:
could you imagine a speed upgrade for Hive tech? mmmmmh <3
That is what I was thinking. A Hive tech speed upgrade would help out immensely in the late game.
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On February 23 2011 01:13 mytent wrote:
Um.
Of course voids and colossi should counter hydras. That's high cost tier 2.5/tier 3 units . -___-
I never understood when Zerg or Terran complain about losing to a Toss who techs up to hts/colossi/carriers/etc, while they stay on roach/hydra or marine/marauder.
.....
You really need to think before complaining about WHY tier 3 > hydra.
Lol what are Zerg's tier 2.5/3 air options? Brood lords? K Brood Lord vs Void Ray let's go.
And Ultralisks do laughably poor against Protoss, they die to 4 zealots T_T
On February 23 2011 01:09 SmoKim wrote:
could you imagine a speed upgrade for Hive tech? mmmmmh <3
Yea but then what would Blizzard release in HoTS without new units? 
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Well, I am not too sure about that. It would change quite a lot. Hydras would then outrange stalkers and also marauders (and marines by 2), that could be quite important. Also that would make them immensly effective against air units.
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On February 23 2011 01:15 Elefanto wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2011 01:13 mytent wrote:
Um.
Of course voids and colossi should counter hydras. That's high cost tier 2.5/tier 3 units . -___-
I never understood when Zerg or Terran complain about losing to a Toss who techs up to hts/colossi/carriers/etc, while they stay on roach/hydra or marine/marauder.
.....
You really need to think before complaining about WHY tier 3 > hydra. You need to learn something about Starcraft. This is not Warcraft, where the "tier" stage of the unit defines the strenght of the army.
Lol. You're joking right?
So... Lings beat mothership. M I rite? (note the big chunk of sarcasm)
Oh and ps. You guys can get corrupters - incredible anti air - before hitting tier 3.
But really. Not many Zerg go for higher tier tech play. Even infestors aren't seen much intournamejt games, let alone ultrLisks and broodlords.
Something to aim for in future army compositions?
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I already doubt this guy's authenticity when he talks about hydralisks in brood war. He says they are never used in ZvT and are used as anti-air in ZvZ, however, this is opposite from the truth. They ARE seen in ZvT especially with plague against bionic/vessel AND especially against mechanical. They are NOT used in ZvZ except the occasional 0.1% hive tech game where they become better with defilers.
Yea I saw how u edited ur post ..
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On February 23 2011 01:21 brentsen wrote:
Well, I am not too sure about that. It would change quite a lot. Hydras would then outrange stalkers and also marauders (and marines by 2), that could be quite important. Also that would make them immensly effective against air units.
Yes that is why I am also skeptical of this proposed change. This would make Hydra/Ling particularly effective. That is the reason why I tried to offset that with an extra 20 seconds research time. This combined with the fact that they are already slow without creep in the early game, will take forever to reach the enemy's base. They are however the direct counters to stalkers, marauders and marines already anyways, and we do not see any hydra rushes. This is because hydra do not come out until tech 2/3 can be reached by terran and protoss.
@blue001
Sorry I did not mean to link SC:BW with the comments about each matchup. The comments are about SC2. I didnt really want to go indepth with brood war other than as flashy italic text. will edit to make it more sensible.
@mytent
The corrupters are NOT good against the voidray/colossus combination. Check out Idra and artosis' post.
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On February 23 2011 01:17 RoarMan wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2011 01:13 mytent wrote:
Um.
Of course voids and colossi should counter hydras. That's high cost tier 2.5/tier 3 units . -___-
I never understood when Zerg or Terran complain about losing to a Toss who techs up to hts/colossi/carriers/etc, while they stay on roach/hydra or marine/marauder.
.....
You really need to think before complaining about WHY tier 3 > hydra. Lol what are Zerg's tier 2.5/3 air options? Brood lords? K Brood Lord vs Void Ray let's go. And Ultralisks do laughably poor against Protoss, they die to 4 zealots T_T
Yeah. Go broodlords against voidrays. I hope I see you on na ladder. Easiest win I'll ever get.
Now, if you want to stop being a retard...
Colossi is tier 3. What's it's strength? Splashing ground. Ultralisk is the Zerg equivalent. And broodlords are like the Zerg carrier. Obviously both are inferior to the Protoss version I'm some ways, eg colossi do distance splash, broodlord speed is horrible... But perhaps you should actually try aiming for these compositions or something different, before saying that the hydralisk is broken.
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on the ZvZ: it used to be 3 range vs 6, and infestor hydra wasn't that dominant either. It just takes too much gas to really get going in any other situation than one with very small chokes. Currently it's 4 vs 6, and the difference is almost neglectible, but 4 vs 7 shouldn't be that much different than the old 3 vs 6.
The main benefit hydras would have vs gateway units would be that forcefields become less effective due to the range, but then again, if the zerg is up to hydras, the toss could have either robo tech (not that usefull) or zealot charge which should help a lot.
in ZvT, the hydras will still melt to tanks. Hydras will be more helpfull against terran mass air though, and might actually prove a counter to BC's once more
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On February 23 2011 01:14 whatthefat wrote:
I see a potential problem in ZvZ. Muta/ling/bling is in an extremely precarious balance with roach/hydra/infestor. Basically, the only reason the former is still viable in response to the latter is because banelings are so effective against hydras. Increasing the range of hydras would allow banelings to be much more easily sniped off from behind the roaches.
I have never seen anyone go Muta/Ling/Bling in ZvZ...
On February 23 2011 01:28 mytent wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2011 01:17 RoarMan wrote:On February 23 2011 01:13 mytent wrote:
Um.
Of course voids and colossi should counter hydras. That's high cost tier 2.5/tier 3 units . -___-
I never understood when Zerg or Terran complain about losing to a Toss who techs up to hts/colossi/carriers/etc, while they stay on roach/hydra or marine/marauder.
.....
You really need to think before complaining about WHY tier 3 > hydra. Lol what are Zerg's tier 2.5/3 air options? Brood lords? K Brood Lord vs Void Ray let's go. And Ultralisks do laughably poor against Protoss, they die to 4 zealots T_T Yeah. Go broodlords against voidrays. I hope I see you on na ladder. Easiest win I'll ever get. Now, if you want to stop being a retard... Colossi is tier 3. What's it's strength? Splashing ground. Ultralisk is the Zerg equivalent. And broodlords are like the Zerg carrier. Obviously both are inferior to the Protoss version I'm some ways, eg colossi do distance splash, broodlord speed is horrible... But perhaps you should actually try aiming for these compositions or something different, before saying that the hydralisk is broken.
Zerg Tier 3 is a lot harder to reach than Protoss or Terran Tier 3 IMO.
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There's something wrong with the hydralisk, but I think it's more to do with how fat and expensive they are rather than their range.
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I would not consider this a fundamental flaw. This is a more of a balance problem than a fundamental flaw. If you want a fundamental flaw, look at Spawn Larvae. Now there's a fundamental flaw.
Terran gets MULEs that they can use whenever they want and always reap the benefits, even if they forget to use one when the time comes.
Protoss gets chronoboost, which helps a ton when researching items, but even if they forget to use a chronoboost here or there, they can always use all their energy whenever they want.
Meanwhile, Zerg gets spawn larvae, which if they forget to use, fucks them over completely. Oh, you forgot to spawn larvae while microing your units in a huge 200 food battle? GG then...
I went off-topic a bit . I would love to see Hydras range go to 7. I never use them over roach because roaches are just so much more cost efficient, but adding another range would surely make me want to use them more often.
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EPT
