Feared as massive damage dealers with awesome range and the ability to swarm, the hydralisks have always been the backbone of Brood War Zerg play. The new version of the Hydralisks in Starcraft 2 are the direct tech path for ZvP antiair, ZvZ antiair, and rarely used in ZvT. They serve a role that is much needed in the zerg's arsenal: ranged DPS.
The hydralisk, in my opinion however, is fundamentally flawed. The Zerg creep shenanigans with hydralisks is needed to stop fast hydra busts. On-the-fly mobility for hydralisks will be too overpowered against any type of air play or harass play, and thus the no-creep slowness must be kept in game. The problem arises in another aspect:
Range
Heres the Hydra's stats:
Minerals - 100 Gas - 50 Food - 2 Build Time - 33 seconds Speed - 2.25 Hit Points - 80 Damage - 12 Range - 5, 6 with grooved spines
What is wrong with its range?
There are two specific situations where Hydralisks are predominantly used. Midgame/Lategame ZvZ and Lategame ZvP.
ZvZ In the ZvZ matchup, Hydralisks are made to sit behind the roach while they wail damage. The idea works, and is one of the popular builds besides pure roach, and infester roach. They are also usually taken for granted as sudden techswitches into Mutalisks can be very devastating and often game-ending for zergies. They suffer from a low health and slow speed, but this is mitigated by the fact that it has roach buffers and a creep from the opponent's base.
Hydralisks are balanced in the ZvZ matchup.
ZvT Hydralisks gets melted by tanks and often bioballs, and thus barely ever used in favor of Ling/Bling/Muta/Infester.
ZvP This is going to strike a nerve.
The ZvP matchup has been deemed as imbalanced by many top pros. The general consensus is that any combination other than Hydra/Roach/Corrupters will straightup lose to Voidray/Colossus. As far as fixing corrupter goes, it is a non-issue with this thread (going to pretend it doesn't exist as an option). The play-by-play is Zerg suiciding corrupters into the Protoss deathball to take out as many Colossus as possible before they die to stalkers and void rays. When this happens, the Zerg tries to remax (or get to pop cap at current Overlord numbers) before the ball comes and hope Hydra/Roach kills Voidray/Gateway. It doesn't work most times.
I believe the problem here lies in the Hydralisks. Why?
1. The Hydras have a range of 6 against the Void Ray's 6. This is an even match in theory, but the problem is that gigantic blob of Stalkers/Zealots and Roaches sitting in front of the hydras. Void rays stack, and hydras require a concave that is impossible because the roaches have already established it. How many times have you, as a Zerg player, targeted the Void Rays with your hydras to have them bunch up, and then the Protoss moves the Void rays back 1 range and the colossus instantly melt your hydras?
2. The Hydras have a range of 6 against the Colossus' 9. The Colossus is the ultimate sniper. They can walk through the protoss ball with ease and thus can dictate range. They usually sit back and wail the roaches and hydras. This works because the massive 3 range difference allows the stalker ball the completely block the hydras from shooting the colossus. If it happens that the hydras can, the colossus can simply move back and choose to melt the roaches.
3. The hydralisks take the position of glass cannons in this matchup. The glass cannon (ie. fire mages in WoW,) are supposed to have tanks and peelers to take damage away from them for them to function correctly. This does not exist in the ZvP matchup in any other form other than the Ultralisks. Whats wrong with ultralisks? They come too late for the 200/200 Protoss deathball, and they clump hardcore. Without proper melee tanks, the roaches are not very efficient at keeping the hydralisks safe as they do in the ZvZ matchup.
Thus, I propose the following.
Grooved Spine increases the Hydralisk's range from 5 to 7, at the increase of build time from 100 seconds to 120 seconds.
What will this solve?
Realistically, it will not affect the ZvZ matchup too much, as roaches are already tanking the damage with great efficiency.
This will solve or at least hinder the Protoss deathball. Colossus will have to risk walking into roach range in order to hit hydralisks, and hydralisks will have an easier time adjusting to void ray micro. The hydralisks will still be glass cannons the colossus can snipe, but they are simply easier to work with. Since the Hydralisks are not particularly used for harass due to their speed off-creep, and one can expect them not to be used for drops like marines would be. However, due to the possible forsight of some stupid hydralisk rush/allin, increasing the research time by 20 seconds should be a decent compromise (you wont have hydralisks engage 20 seconds after you research grooved spine now anyways).
The other problem it will resolve is the air superiority of Phoenix and Void ray play. Since mutas and corrupters are crap counters to both units, the queens and spore crawlers are assigned to the nigh-impossible job of keeping protoss air away while the Zerg techs for hydralisks. This should help alleviate some problems Zerg has against protoss air.
On the other hand, maybe hydralisks will be incorporated into more ZvT builds. Currently they usually dont exist in a game of ZvT, because cannons eat hydralisks for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. They are too slow and they have a hard time doing anything with the standard Terran composition. If their range is increased, an incorporation of them into the standard ling/bling/muta may be beneficial. I really don't know yet and anything would be complete speculation.
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What does TL think of this idea? I would love for any suggestions, criticisms or other comments. But please don't troll the thread with unintelligent whine of balance, and keep the chat about imbalance to a gentlemanly level.
The slow speed off creep is one of its defining features, and as such is something I would not touch. This change on the other hand plays well within the "identity" of the hydra, gives them a bit more use/utility in other ways than just raw damage. Their damage seems fine as it is.
I like it, I think it would make the hydra a more interesting unit for sure. Even a range of 6,5 would be a nice buff. I for one love seeing hydras melt that protoss ball.
The logic does seem sound, I am just thinking about how strong they would now be against gateway units though. Hydras already rape gateway units, and adding one extra range might not change too much, but consider how it changed roaches
as maps get bigger, the slow hydralisks will become even worse in comparison to other zerg units. even with increased range, being unable to use them for attacking would make them waste of food.
I feel like that change could have an effect on zvz. In theory in zvz, with perfect micro hydra infestor can beat roaches without losing a single hydra, but at this moment it is allmost impossible to do. But with your change this could become so mcuh easier. I realise that there is very rarely a pure roach army, but if you can just trap the hydras behind whilst the roaches a decimated for no damage dealt, then the hydras in the back should be no problem. this isn't necessarily a problem, but it is a change to the matchup . I have no idea what a good fix would be or if it even needs one.
This really is one of the more thought out suggestions but at the same time I don't feel like the Hydralisk is suffering any huge problems.
The only real problem in my opinion would be it's speed which makes it hard to use but this can be solved practically with tumors and ovie's would speed.
On the other hand Groove Spine is an upgrade ( IMO) that does very little for it's cost. I mean 1 range is good, but I don't feel like it changes all too much.
On February 23 2011 00:57 shawty wrote: The logic does seem sound, I am just thinking about how strong they would now be against gateway units though. Hydras already rape gateway units, and adding one extra range might not change too much, but consider how it changed roaches
Hydras take at least 8 minutes of gametime to reach a respectable size that can attack a gateway mix. A 4 gate comes about a minute earlier. I think its fair to say hydras should counter gateway units, thats their job and they do it quite well, extra range in an extra 20 seconds should not be an issue. If the protoss stays on gateway units at 8 minutes, they really deserve to lose because its most likely a failed 4gate.
I feel like that change could have an effect on zvz. In theory in zvz, with perfect micro hydra infestor can beat roaches without losing a single hydra, but at this moment it is allmost impossible to do. But with your change this could become so mcuh easier. I realise that there is very rarely a pure roach army, but if you can just trap the hydras behind whilst the roaches a decimated for no damage dealt, then the hydras in the back should be no problem. this isn't necessarily a problem, but it is a change to the matchup . I have no idea what a good fix would be or if it even needs one.
A tier 2.5 unit composition should technically beat the 1.5 roach. Youre also going to need a crapload of energy on your infesters, which is pretty much impossible.
I like your idea, really much. But I do not think we even need to increase the research time.
May I theorycraft some aswell: I would love to remove the corruptor completely and let Broodlords evolve from Mutalisk. Instead of the corruptor I want a scourge like non-splashbonus-to-massive unit. Spectatorwise I think this would add a lot to ZvP. It could be expensive, and do good damage. This would create Plaguuuh-moments, will it hit the Colloss or will it get sniped.
Increasing the roaches range by +1 changed loads and the same thing would probably happen with the hydras. More range = easier to get a bigger concave and also the possibility for a bigger one which would equal a lot more dps.
On February 23 2011 00:55 Bagi wrote: The slow speed off creep is one of its defining features, and as such is something I would not touch. This change on the other hand plays well within the "identity" of the hydra, gives them a bit more use/utility in other ways than just raw damage. Their damage seems fine as it is.
I like it, I think it would make the hydra a more interesting unit for sure. Even a range of 6,5 would be a nice buff. I for one love seeing hydras melt that protoss ball.
lolwut, i prefer to think of the slow speed off creep is something blizzard screwed up.
Almost every unit that was ported over from bw has kept their original role. For T and P.
Meanwhile Z gets units that are names the same, but are different.
ie, Ultras now being anti-armour splash as well as tank.
Zerglings with dps nerf to make Banelings instant damage more pronounce.
Hydras are now more like defender units than anything.
Give hydra back the speed upgrade from bw and all will be swell. (doesn't even have to increase on-creep speed). It's even slower than the infestor which is a fat slug that oozes shit while moving.
Just look in that trailer. Hydras are like these crazy things that are charging in. In-game, the slug would be faster than them =\
On February 23 2011 01:00 RoarMan wrote: This really is one of the more thought out suggestions but at the same time I don't feel like the Hydralisk is suffering any huge problems.
The only real problem in my opinion would be it's speed which makes it hard to use but this can be solved practically with tumors and ovie's would speed.
On the other hand Groove Spine is an upgrade ( IMO) that does very little for it's cost. I mean 1 range is good, but I don't feel like it changes all too much.
Let's not forget how +1 range Roaches absolutely changed almost everything about Zerg...
I've always felt grooved spines to be a lacklustre, expensive upgrade. This is supported by most Zerg pros not taking it immediately it's available unlike other Lair upgrades like Roach and Baneling speed. It's probably important to have once there's a sizeable roach ball in front of your hydras but a buff to it would certainly help deal with the vP matchup without really changing the others. (It might have an effect on ZvZ but it's hard to say)
On February 23 2011 01:00 RoarMan wrote: This really is one of the more thought out suggestions but at the same time I don't feel like the Hydralisk is suffering any huge problems.
The only real problem in my opinion would be it's speed which makes it hard to use but this can be solved practically with tumors and ovie's would speed.
On the other hand Groove Spine is an upgrade ( IMO) that does very little for it's cost. I mean 1 range is good, but I don't feel like it changes all too much.
Let's not forget how +1 range Roaches absolutely changed almost everything about Zerg...
+1 range roaches changed a LOT about zerg. Mostly because they are now more viable earlygame. The roach had a fundamental problem with range that needed solving, and the hydralisk, as I believe, now has one arisen too. The roach change turned out to be a change for the better, isn't that a promising sight?
On February 23 2011 01:00 RoarMan wrote: This really is one of the more thought out suggestions but at the same time I don't feel like the Hydralisk is suffering any huge problems.
The only real problem in my opinion would be it's speed which makes it hard to use but this can be solved practically with tumors and ovie's would speed.
On the other hand Groove Spine is an upgrade ( IMO) that does very little for it's cost. I mean 1 range is good, but I don't feel like it changes all too much.
Let's not forget how +1 range Roaches absolutely changed almost everything about Zerg...
Oh of course but that didn't require an upgrade or any research that cost 150/150
I'm not saying Grooved Spine is useless, I just haven't seen or played too many games where getting Grooved Spine just in time saved anyone from Blink Stalker Push or helped end the game.
EPT![[image loading]](http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090407222143/starcraft/images/a/a3/Hydralisk_SC2_DevRend1.jpg)
