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I'm sure a lot of protoss players have had losses from a cloak banshee or dt getting into your base and you have no detection because you went for a non-robo build. I started thinking of ways that could maybe fix the whole "rock paper scissors" thing that happens sometimes in sc2 (mostly in pvp)
Basically the idea is pretty simple. Add a hallucinated observer to the list of things a sentry can hallucinate. It will be just like any other hallucination except that it can detect cloaked units. This would open up a lot of builds for the protoss player. They can go stargate/fast ht's/blink stalker/ etc etc and not have to worry so much about losing because they didn't have detection.
There would be some problems with this though. For instance, I think a 6-7 gate all in off two base would be extremely hard to stop in pvz. The best response to 6gate all in is burrowed roaches, and if you were able to see the burrowed roaches with a hallucinated observer this could make the build extremely deadly (not sure if it would be "imbalanced, but it would for sure make it a lot stronger". Or perhaps they could just make it so hallucinated observers can only detect cloaked units, not burrowed units.
I think the hallucinated build time being reduced was a great idea. Its another form of scouting for the protoss, but I still feel like the protoss is the most restricted race due to the fact that they always have to go a robo or lose because of a build order loss (example, going for a stargate build vs cloak banshee, or going for blink stalkers vs dark templars)
I also think pure gatway army into fast storm might be too strong vs terran. But again this is just a theory of mine.
What do you guys think of this idea? Do you think this would allow the protoss player to be less restricted in their build orders, or do you think this would make the protoss race too strong?
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No. The whole point of hallucinated units is that they are units that are FAKE. A hallucinated observer would be basically a free observer that can build instantly; it accomplishes all the things that a real observer can do, except that its life is temporary. Hallucinated units should be used to make your oppoent think you went for a different build, or that you have a bigger army then you do. I dont think they should should give line of sight, or that collossus can stomp forcefields, for example.
Plus there is the whole "why would you hallucinate units that can only be detected by a detector anyway' thing. The units are cloaked; it makes no sense to hallucinate things your oppoent can't see.
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A hallucionation is a product of psychic energies meant purely to confuse the enemy. It doesn't have any of the electronic components the observer uses to detect cloaked enemies because its made of energy.
Perhaps a sentry would be able to hallucinate an uncloaked observer with no detection, but i dont think that would be very useful.
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On February 10 2011 04:10 tnkted wrote:
No. The whole point of hallucinated units is that they are units that are FAKE. A hallucinated observer would be basically a free observer that can build instantly; it accomplishes all the things that a real observer can do, except that its life is temporary. Hallucinated units should be used to make your oppoent think you went for a different build, or that you have a bigger army then you do. I dont think they should should give line of sight, or that collossus can stomp forcefields, for example.
Plus there is the whole "why would you hallucinate units that can only be detected by a detector anyway' thing. The units are cloaked; it makes no sense to hallucinate things your oppoent can't see.
True, but I think a hallucinated observer would only be good at defending against cloaked units attacking your base. It wouldn't be very good at scouting because observers are pretty slow and hallucination does not last very long, you wouldn't get very much information out of it and a hallucinated phoenix is a lot better. But perhaps a hallucinated observer that was not cloaked but could detect cloaked units would be better.
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It would definitely make different tech trees more viable and would turn hallucination into a staple into the protoss build.
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Just wanted to inform you that you posted in the wrong forums
Cool Ideas go Here
Glad i could help 
EDIT: Next time i recommend reading this The Law
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as a protoss, i would love this to happen, but it would completely break the game and make building obs out of a robo fac, completely useless and it also makes zero sense from a lore standpoint, because hallucinations are supposed to be pure energy and do nothing that the real unit can do execpt look and move like it.
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Hallucinated immortals still have hardened shields, so hallucinated obs should have true sight, but it would definately make protoss uber imbalanced in P v Z by locking burrowed Roaches play.
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lol nah, Protoss don't need more cloaked stuff.
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On February 10 2011 04:22 PieShopPwner wrote:
as a protoss, i would love this to happen, but it would completely break the game and make building obs out of a robo fac, completely useless and it also makes zero sense from a lore standpoint, because hallucinations are supposed to be pure energy and do nothing that the real unit can do execpt look and move like it.
Well this wouldn't make observers useless at all. They are still very good even with this. Observers live forever and can constantly see what the opponent is doing. Hallucinated observers for scouting purposes would barely be able to make it to the base before they run out of time. But yea the lore thing is a good point, didn't really think of that. But this was only an idea that I had in my head.
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This would be really OP, why build observers ever again?
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Hallucination was made for the following reasons
1. Scouting while you are contained / not going robo-tech--- Hallucinated Phoenix's do the job very well, they are fast, are somewhat durable, and can trick your opponent you are going for Stargate tech
2. Giving you meatshields - Who doesnt want their opponent to think you have an extra 8 zeolots / 4 archons?
Hallucinated Observers would break the game entirely. Think about it this way, A sentry costs 100 gas, An observer costs the same, so why in the world would you ever build an observer that does absolutely NOTHING but scout when you can build a sentry that can attack, cast guardian shield, force field, and make the same observer?
In the case of an hallucinated CLOAKED CANNOT DETECT observer, i would personally think that is pointless and would be somewhat breaking the game as well. Observers are meant so that you can scout your opponent's base without them knowing. The fact that the observer itself is cloaked and the opponent has absolutely no way of denying the scout without the use of detection is just plain broken, Remember Overseers/Scans/Fungal Growth/EMP/Turrets are expensive! And besides, Hallucinated Phoenix's are much better for this role
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On February 10 2011 04:25 FearTHeFrO wrote:
Observers live forever and can constantly see what the opponent is doing.
They only live until the opponent gets detection. Then they die. Instantly.
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Free observers might break the game I think...
If you keep dying to cloaked banshees or DTs, then working on your scouting is a good idea. If you're scouting up your opponents ramp and don't see anything, then you can be suspicious and drop the robo versus terran or the forge versus protoss if it fits into your build. There's no point in being so rigid about your build that you can't bother doing something differently if you scout something that kills what you did.
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i understand, this has been mentioned long ago. basically, uncloaked observer(as with hallucinated dark templar) with detection. this will surely open up more options for protoss.
however, with the price of the observer dropped to 25/75, investing 200/100 on robo is not bad compared to 100/100 of hallucination.
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how about its cloaked but it cant detect. So you can still scout with it and make them use scans, but to have it detect as well would be OP
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Hrm what if you could hallucinate it, and all it could do is detect units, but it can't move. This wouldn't make observers as useless, mostly all this observer would be for is another form of detection.
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Kind of tangential but I wonder if hallucination should include buildings. Would be kind of neat to throw off a scout that you were going twilight council or something.
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On February 10 2011 05:44 Brandus wrote:
Kind of tangential but I wonder if hallucination should include buildings. Would be kind of neat to throw off a scout that you were going twilight council or something.
u can build and cancel for the same effect.
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And the hallucinated probes should be able to build and mine too. And hallucinated sentries can use hallucination to make more hallucinations.
Getting free detection with only going gateway tech would break the balance making cloak tech useless vs P.
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Why has this thread not been deleted yet? Free observers and instant detection would break the game irreparably. The whole point of the cloaked banshee harass is that you can't do anything about it without detection--it forces you to scout the starport with tech lab, and then react. You're proposing a literally instantaneous counter by warping in a sentry, making an observer, BAM! The Terran's eight minutes of desperate economic sacrifice and teching are all for naught. If you're seriously having a problem with banshee or DT harass, then build a cannon behind your mineral line and forget about it. Don't try to break the game.
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As a zerg I suffer from the same problem. It really bothers me when I have banshees in my face while I am waiting for a marine stim push or something.
Similar to what OP suggested making the queens detectors might just be the right solution. Queens should be able to feel the presence of units over the creep on theory. And since they are usually at base it won't be used an offensive detector.
Or can't we just disable cloak in the whole game?
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The idea of hallucinate providing detection would basically ruin the already tenuous matchup of ZvP. The one thing is that if you know the protoss didn't go Robo you can do burrow play. If hallucinate also stopped burrow play, there would be no protoss build which was vulnerable to cloaking.
It's balanced that 4gate and stargate strategies don't have mobile detection in the early and mid game.
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LOL, why would anyone build an observer if you could hallucinate them.
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I thought this was going to be about hallucinating an observer, showing it to your opponent so he think it's real and will be less inspired to do some kind of cloak play.
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I like the idea, but I say that it isn't cloaked but can still detect. What is wrong with instant detection? Scans are instant. Overseers only take 17 seconds to build. I like the idea...
EDIT: It isn't free detection! You have to first build the sentry and second research hallucinate (and third have energy to cast the hallucination). And after that it isn't permanent anyways, so you can just run your banshees around until the obs vanishes and come back.
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These are the dumbest ideas ever.
If queens could detect then banshees are no longer used, neither are dts. Or for that matter observers. Free and easy detection is dumb. You should have to sacrifice something to get detection.
observers that can be hallucinated and not move does the same thing.
This post is all about someone who does not want to sacrifice anything for detection. Which means there is no reason to scout for someone with easy detection. Then the only sneaky things that you have to worry about: hellions, baneling busts, and the 4 gate.
So think about how the unit would effect every match up before you decide to make a huge change to the detection in the game.
If you are having trouble with cloaked units in game then have a friend use cloaked units against you over and over and learn what it look likes from the scouting and the timing then you will be able to identify whats going on and counter it.
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I agree that it is pretty bad that protoss is forced to go robo to get mobile detection, but i think it would break the game because it makes gateway only builds much more viable. One of the best counters to a 4-gate as terran is rushing for cloacked banshees, but if the toss can just react by hallucinating an observer the terran is screwed.
What about changing the observer so it is build from the cybercore instead, and requires either a robo, stargate or TC? That way protoss is forced to tech to get detection, but does not have to go robo?
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Hey! I play Protoss, but I'm only good at 4 gating... I think we should give my 4 gate a way to defend against a cloaked banshee. I see other plays just go kill the cloaked banshee rusher, but my macro and timing is bad... so I need a way to detect the cloaked banshee INSTANTLY! Any suggestions can be left here! THANKS!
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It should be noted that hallucinate costs 100 mana (sentries start with only 50). So it's not like people are just warping in sentries and instantly casting a hallucination. A 4-gating toss is not making sentries anyways, he is making zealots and mostly stalkers. A 3-gate expand toss is the one making sentries.
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On February 10 2011 06:44 Moody wrote:Hey! I play Protoss, but I'm only good at 4 gating... I think we should give my 4 gate a way to defend against a cloaked banshee. I see other plays just go kill the cloaked banshee rusher, but my macro and timing is bad... so I need a way to detect the cloaked banshee INSTANTLY! Any suggestions can be left here! THANKS!
Yes...SCOUT AND STOP 4 GATING
There are builds that have counters. you are asking to make the 4 gate even stronger than it already is. Lets get detection with it so there is no hard counter.
You need to expand your play past the 4 gate and play past the 10 minute mark when your build gets countered. Or your other option is to tighten up your 4 gate so there is no way a banshee could get out in time
Also it takes a long time to build to banshee so you will have time to scout. And figure it out.
If you see a factory with a tech lab really early and a starport building then a banshee is probably coming and you can build a robo in time and get an obs without trouble. If you see a bunker at the entrance to the base, you can guess that some tech is coming or a FE. So get a fake phoenix and check it out or get a quick robo to check
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If you were able to hallucinate an observer (or a dark templar for that matter), you're getting an enormous advantage over your opponent; you nullify the need for getting a robo for observers, and you can get an invisible scout into your opponent.
It would be upgrading hallucinated phoenixes by turning them invisible and giving them detection.
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While you're at it, make it so that hallucinated sentries can themselves create hallucinations in a never ending cascade of imaginary units until the servers crash and die.
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mmm you couldn't possibly have warp gate and hallucination out for a 4gate, at least not how the build is supposed to be done... Since you rush warp gate tech and attack as soon as it's done.
Therefore I don't see the purpose of discussing warp gate.
I feel like this might actually be pretty balanced. Even though it would not fit with the physics of how hallucination is supposed to work. Hallucination would need a cost increase to 150 or 200/200. And it doesn't seem like the obs should be cloaked.
Terran don't really face any penalties for scanning late game. Theoretically it's a mule sac, and so for toss... you have to build a sentry 50/100 vs a theoretical 250/0. And that sentry has to stay near your bases with 75 energy, observers move dog slow.
Unfortunately it would probably break ZvP making roach burrow kind of worthless. Maybe could at least move hallucinate to the twilight council .
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Sounds like a terrible idea, and one that is not very well thought out. There is no need for faster detection, you just want protoss to be easier...
They can go stargate/fast ht's/blink stalker/ etc etc and not have to worry so much about losing because they didn't have detection.
What the hell?? There is a reason why detection is somewhat delayed, it's to avoid stuff exactly like that. You just don't want to be punished for being greedy.
There is a reason why I don't fast expand vs. terran as zerg on small maps...
Protoss can already get detection tier 1, zerg needs to wait till lair. Maybe I should make a post about how overlords should have detection so I can drone a lot and delay lair longer "and not have to worry so much about losing because they didn't have detection."
Just deal with it.
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Although I don't agree that its "free detection" considering the upgrade costs 100/100 (a lot more than an observer actually) and the sentry cost 50/100, and when you add it all up its really not that much less than building a robo and getting an observer, its mostly just another option of detection.
Also like I said earlier, if the observer was just used as another form of detection, as in when you hallucinate it it can't move and is able to be seen, I don't think that would make it to where observers are completely pointless.
It's only an idea by the way, not really expecting this to actually be implemented in the game, just felt like theory-crafting on the strategy forums today. So don't yell at me too bad ^^
On February 10 2011 06:57 Dance. wrote:Sounds like a terrible idea, and one that is not very well thought out. There is no need for faster detection, you just want protoss to be easier... Show nested quote +They can go stargate/fast ht's/blink stalker/ etc etc and not have to worry so much about losing because they didn't have detection. What the hell?? There is a reason why detection is somewhat delayed, it's to avoid stuff exactly like that. You just don't want to be punished for being greedy. There is a reason why I don't fast expand vs. terran as zerg on small maps... Protoss can already get detection tier 1, zerg needs to wait till lair. Maybe I should make a post about how overlords should have detection so I can drone a lot and delay lair longer "and not have to worry so much about losing because they didn't have detection." Just deal with it.
er... ok sorry -.-
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ok, this is actually not a bad idea and people are going crazy over it calling it imba.
1. it costs 100/100 and 85sec for research
2. it costs 100 energy, sentries start with 50
3. it is not permanent. got a cloak banshee? come in, see observer, run. come back when observer is gone. another 100 energy needed for an observer, you got plenty of time to do damage with banshee before that or a new sentry can hallucinate a observer again. same basic idea as scan, but observer can move and last longer.
4. it is not cloaked, same as hallucinate dark templar in bw.
i'm not for or against it, rather interested in how this might do if tested. it does open up more options for protoss, not an advantage.
robo is still a better, reliable counter to cloaks but this will allow some limited defensive measures.
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I would never build another robo facility again ever, its like having scans at an incredibly reduced cost.
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Why do people make these threads? I thought there was a rule about make balance suggestion threads.
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On February 10 2011 07:03 jinorazi wrote:
ok, this is actually not a bad idea and people are going crazy over it calling it imba.
1. it costs 100/100 and 85sec for research
2. it costs 100 energy, sentries start with 50
3. it is not permanent. got a cloak banshee? come in, see observer, run. come back when observer is gone. another 100 energy needed for an observer, you got plenty of time to do damage with banshee before that or a new sentry can hallucinate a observer again. same basic idea as scan, but observer can move and last longer.
4. it is not cloaked, same as hallucinate dark templar in bw.
i'm not for or against it, rather interested in how this might do if tested. it does open up more options for protoss, not an advantage.
robo is still a better, reliable counter to cloaks but this will allow some limited defensive measures.
I dont think this is completely true. what it does is make it super easy for a toss to turtle up with emergency detection that is not stationary like a scan.
You can just make a ton of sentries and be completely safe from everything with FF and emergency detection, and then you can scout and counter whatever you see cause you are 100% safe.
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On February 10 2011 06:51 TheXenocide1 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2011 06:44 Moody wrote:Hey! I play Protoss, but I'm only good at 4 gating... I think we should give my 4 gate a way to defend against a cloaked banshee. I see other plays just go kill the cloaked banshee rusher, but my macro and timing is bad... so I need a way to detect the cloaked banshee INSTANTLY! Any suggestions can be left here! THANKS! Yes...SCOUT AND STOP 4 GATING There are builds that have counters. you are asking to make the 4 gate even stronger than it already is. Lets get detection with it so there is no hard counter. You need to expand your play past the 4 gate and play past the 10 minute mark when your build gets countered. Or your other option is to tighten up your 4 gate so there is no way a banshee could get out in time Also it takes a long time to build to banshee so you will have time to scout. And figure it out. If you see a factory with a tech lab really early and a starport building then a banshee is probably coming and you can build a robo in time and get an obs without trouble. If you see a bunker at the entrance to the base, you can guess that some tech is coming or a FE. So get a fake phoenix and check it out or get a quick robo to check
Lol sarcasm is lost on you isn't it.
lol OP, you just lost to cloak banshees didn't you? If this goes through, you'll see no-one ever make an observer ever again.
Not to mention from a lore point of view, if hallucinated observers can serve their primary function, then why can't hallucinated Collosus serve their primary function?
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Yes, I gotta be honest OP, this is a terrible idea. As many have stated, no obs would ever be built again, just the hallucination research.
This would be akin to get an upgrade that automatically made all overlords into overseers for Zerg, or an upgrade that gave Terran unlimited scans. Just not a good idea.
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On February 10 2011 07:11 TheXenocide1 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2011 07:03 jinorazi wrote:
ok, this is actually not a bad idea and people are going crazy over it calling it imba.
1. it costs 100/100 and 85sec for research
2. it costs 100 energy, sentries start with 50
3. it is not permanent. got a cloak banshee? come in, see observer, run. come back when observer is gone. another 100 energy needed for an observer, you got plenty of time to do damage with banshee before that or a new sentry can hallucinate a observer again. same basic idea as scan, but observer can move and last longer.
4. it is not cloaked, same as hallucinate dark templar in bw.
i'm not for or against it, rather interested in how this might do if tested. it does open up more options for protoss, not an advantage.
robo is still a better, reliable counter to cloaks but this will allow some limited defensive measures. I dont think this is completely true. what it does is make it super easy for a toss to turtle up with emergency detection that is not stationary like a scan. You can just make a ton of sentries and be completely safe from everything with FF and emergency detection, and then you can scout and counter whatever you see cause you are 100% safe.
i can't say if that would be the case, but like i said, i'd like to see this tested to see if it really works or not. i have no problem with making robo for detection because in the end it comes to be about same cost for the initial observer.
robo+observer = 225/275
research+sentry = 150/200
its only 75/75 more for observer
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On February 10 2011 06:44 Moody wrote:Hey! I play Protoss, but I'm only good at 4 gating... I think we should give my 4 gate a way to defend against a cloaked banshee. I see other plays just go kill the cloaked banshee rusher, but my macro and timing is bad... so I need a way to detect the cloaked banshee INSTANTLY! Any suggestions can be left here! THANKS!
thanks made my day
ok now to the post
there are a lot of things that people suggest because:
-it wouldnt break the game
-it would help them
-its neat
-the other races have it too
my favorite examples of this are:
-reaver
-lurker
-zerg having a cliffwalking unit
-queen energy upgread
all these things sound nice but they arrent nessesary
starcraft 2 is a game with not a lot of units but very different units and that makes the game
no race have a unit that is compleatly useless if you build an other one (for example why would you get lukers if bainlings can do the same, why reavers when there are colosses)
starcraft is good because it is compact leave it like this
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Terrible idea, would make creep tumor sniping incredibly easy PvZ, on top of shutting down roach burrow play vs pure gateway armies. Hallucinate is already quite powerful when engaging in scouting and misinformation and doesn't need a buff.
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On February 10 2011 07:18 me_viet wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2011 06:51 TheXenocide1 wrote:On February 10 2011 06:44 Moody wrote:Hey! I play Protoss, but I'm only good at 4 gating... I think we should give my 4 gate a way to defend against a cloaked banshee. I see other plays just go kill the cloaked banshee rusher, but my macro and timing is bad... so I need a way to detect the cloaked banshee INSTANTLY! Any suggestions can be left here! THANKS! Yes...SCOUT AND STOP 4 GATING There are builds that have counters. you are asking to make the 4 gate even stronger than it already is. Lets get detection with it so there is no hard counter. You need to expand your play past the 4 gate and play past the 10 minute mark when your build gets countered. Or your other option is to tighten up your 4 gate so there is no way a banshee could get out in time Also it takes a long time to build to banshee so you will have time to scout. And figure it out. If you see a factory with a tech lab really early and a starport building then a banshee is probably coming and you can build a robo in time and get an obs without trouble. If you see a bunker at the entrance to the base, you can guess that some tech is coming or a FE. So get a fake phoenix and check it out or get a quick robo to check Lol sarcasm is lost on you isn't it. lol OP, you just lost to cloak banshees didn't you? If this goes through, you'll see no-one ever make an observer ever again. Not to mention from a lore point of view, if hallucinated observers can serve their primary function, then why can't hallucinated Collosus serve their primary function?
Not really I actually always 2gate/robo expand vs terran. I was only making a suggestion to maybe make the game more fun to explore. Sorry for posting a terrible idea ill stop now, and you can close this thread since its mostly just people yelling at me saying its a terrible idea -.-
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Or just don't be bad and scout. And properly react.
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as bill gates often says.... "this is the stupidest idea i've ever heard... *facepalms* "
4gate is already pretty broken, to add 'spawn observer' to a staple gateway unit is just...
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hallucinate probes and make it look like your 'all-ining' :D
then if they pull workers, you just ff the ramp and type *muahahahha i'll got you my pretty and yer little dog too*
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Some of the arguments in here are based on lore or fantasy... this game has all sorts of shit that doesnt make sense. To stay on topic, hallucinated immortals have hardened shield (they take 20 damage because it is reduced to 10 then doubled). If you hate this idea then hate it because its imba, not because it makes no sense with the lore.
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This would make 4 gate ridiculously strong against Zerg and against Terran. You discussed Zerg already. For Terran, any sort of 1/1/1 opening would be utterly destroyed unless multiple bunkers were constructed and repaired. Drop play would be eliminated simply by leaving a fake observer over the base, allowing P to contain and expand. Cloaked banshees, the traditional 1/1/1 response to 4 gates, would be ineffective. You would be basically giving Toss an actual unit producing structure. There would be little point of doing anything except high economy 4 gating and expanding behind it.
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hallucinated observer made my day...
but the thing most people here forget is:
hallucinated Collossi can destroy forcefields !
can't believe nobody considered that in this thread...
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seriously wouldnt work at all, it would remove cloaking units as a factor in the game. no sneak attack EVER again.
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Hallucinated cloaked observers would NOT be that useful for scouting. I'm quite sure that hallucinated phoenixes will be used for scouting should this change happen. This is not a bad idea, it just needs some tweaking for balance.
Protoss is basically forced down one tech tree in order to get moveable detection whereas Terran has access to scans, Zerg has Overseers as soon as they get Lair. Perhaps if the hallucinated observer only lasted for a short period time similar to a scan this would be more viable.
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Let's leave the theorycraft out of the Strategy Forum.
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EPT
