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Active: 1732 users

Analagous builds/units Z:T

Forum Index > Closed
Post a Reply
MobiusOne
Profile Joined September 2010
United States106 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-27 12:51:45
January 27 2011 12:42 GMT
#1
BugRancher here, Ive played Zerg for a while at a decently high level, beating high diamonds, 140ish apm with defensive management based play style.

Lately, I've decided I wanted to try out terran. I've lacked most knowledge of refined Terran build orders besides the simple cheesy crap, like 2 port banshee ect.

After a while I noticed there were enough similarities in the structure of each races to develop analogous build orders.

Day9 recently covered a game where MouZMorrow put a 14 gas 14 pool speed-ling expand build order to good use verse a toss player. It is apparent to me that you can do the EXACT same ANALOGOUS build order as Terran. What do i mean by ANALAGOUS? Well, thinking on the lines of an analogy. Typically, each analog is different according to the main racial advantage of each race.

Terran racial advantage seems to be defense.

Zerg Racial Advantage seems to be mobility.


Ex. Cows: Farmland as Deer:Forest

an Sc2 example would be:

Terranerg as Marineserglings

Here's a small list of the ones that I have thought of.

Between Zerg and Terran, Protoss analogs obviously exist too. I'll also try to phrase things in thinking about the ZvP TvP matchup.

For example:

Zergling:Marine
Speedling: Stim Marine or Helions
Roach: Marauder
Speed Roach: Marauder with Conc shells
HydraLisk: Ghost
ZVP TVP matchup defensive unit, (dont push against terrans with ghost or zergs with Hydraslisk with pure gateway units.
Hydra Range: Mobius Reactor
Hydra dps vs toss: EMP
Mutalisk:Banshee Map Control units
Ultra:Thor
Ultra armor: 250 mm cannon
Broodlord: Battle cruiser
Corrupter: Viking
Overlord: supply depot
creep:supply depot (Mobility vs Defense)
Creep spew: Medivac heal (Mobility vs Defense)
Mule: Queen Macro mechanic. (Mule can give you enough minerals to build 2 barracks and the 2nd mule will give you the money to produce out of both.)
Adrenal Glands: Marine HP (Combat Shields)
Infernal Preignighter: Banelings? aoe dmg to light?
Infestor:Raven
Infested Terran:auto turret
Fungal Growth: Seeker missile (Defense vs Mobility)
Corruption: Viking land mode (Defense vs Mobility)
Burrow: Seige mode (Defense vs Mobility)
Overseer: Scan (Defense vs Mobility)
Lair: Factory/Ghost academy
Hydra Den: Ghost academy
Hatchery: CC duh!
Extractor: Refinery duh!

--------------------------------------------------

the last two are for my transition into how this could relate to a build order.
Day9 recently illustrated a good BO for z v z that was similar to a terran 1-1-1 build order.

Lets look at a solid build order for Zerg and find the anagous build for terran.

Pretend were still playing a ZvP or ZvT matchup: You can't really think of this in a ZVT format or else you lose your control. Protoss being the control in this little thought experiment.

Ex:
2 port banshee into expansion: 1 base muta into expansion


Zerg:
9 overlord
14 gas
14 pool
15 overlord
16 queen
18 2 lings to deny scouting
take drones off gas after spawning pool
is up for 100 gas to ling speed
19 expand
22 overlord
2nd queen
drones back on gas
lair
+1 carapace
2 spines for defence (4 gates can be nasty :/)

It's pointless to list the build order/opening from now on due to the fact, if your playing at a high level you will be scouting and reacting to what your opponent is doing.

this can transition of course into lair with 2nd hundred gas
into hydras to give you the defensive advantage and keep you safe to take your 3rd vs toss. If you see collosi get corrupters.

Terran:
10 supply depot
13 refinery
14 barracks
15 supply depot
16 oc
19 command center
20ish supply depot
2nd oc
scvs back on gas
Ghost academy
+1 infantry weapons
2 bunkers for defence ( how common is this when FE vs a protoss to defend a 4 gate :/

of course you can use this stim marine and ghost composition to defend again any gateway oriented force so you can get a quick 3rd up. If you see collosi tech, get vikings


I think this kind of reasoning could be applied to create many new and effective build orders. After all In Code S GSL, Liquid Jinro successfully used mech against OgsMC, which in a way is the equivalent of using Muta/Ling/Bling vs Toss.

I understand this is not anything new or novel, but just a post to get those creative juices going for our little Sc2 E-Sports community. After all sc2 is young and there is still a lot of room to innovate backed up by the changes in the metagame that occured after every GSL.

GSL 1: Management Style Zerg play perfected by Idra and Fruitdealer, NesTea cam a bit later
GSL 2: MarineKingPrime changed theway we thought about marines
GSL 3: OgsMC made alot of innovations in the way we see PVT
































"Macro while you macro all day every day"
DarKFoRcE
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Germany1215 Posts
January 27 2011 12:51 GMT
#2
It just doesnt work like this. Your whole post makes very little sense to me. You better just forget about what you wrote there :p

I mean, how the fuck can you compare hydras to ghosts :D
Follow me on Twitter: https://twitter.com/#!/PinDarKFoRcE
Gomas
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Poland312 Posts
January 27 2011 12:55 GMT
#3
If you could actually say what makes them so alike, and whats the point of u saying they are alike, maybe it would make more sense. But still, i don't get it.
MobiusOne
Profile Joined September 2010
United States106 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-27 12:58:24
January 27 2011 12:57 GMT
#4
In ZvP, Hydra/ling will keep you safe against most gateway based attacks due to the high Hydra DPS and lings to tank. In a different but similar way, A Ghost can use emp to great effect defensively against a gateway composition. A hydralisk is obviously not a ghost, but they serve a similar purpose. Mutalisk and Banshees are similar also, because they serve a similar function. They harass mineral lines and give you map control. If the enemy moves out of his base, you threaten to wreck his production and economy, so you can expand. Does that help?
"Macro while you macro all day every day"
ScrubS
Profile Joined September 2010
Netherlands436 Posts
January 27 2011 12:57 GMT
#5
You are only comparing them in their tech tree, but their position in the tech three generally isn't important at all
zatic
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
Zurich15365 Posts
January 27 2011 12:58 GMT
#6
On January 27 2011 21:51 DarKFoRcE wrote:
It just doesnt work like this. Your whole post makes very little sense to me. You better just forget about what you wrote there :p

I mean, how the fuck can you compare hydras to ghosts :D

Got to agree I have no idea what you are trying to say. You take a ZvP build and create a *somewhat* "analogous" TvP build from that which will die to any of the common one base aggression build Protoss do.

My impression is you think too much about this game. Sit down and play some instead.
ModeratorI know Teamliquid is known as a massive building
MiraMax
Profile Joined July 2009
Germany532 Posts
January 27 2011 13:01 GMT
#7
You conveniently compare the early game of two expand builds, see some similarities in expansion timing and conclude from that that you can translate one build into the other!? What would be the point of this?
MobiusOne
Profile Joined September 2010
United States106 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-27 13:06:04
January 27 2011 13:02 GMT
#8
a 14 gas 14 pool can die to a lot of common one base aggression builds from toss.. I don't understand your point. All I am trying to point out that you can create a lot of Terran build orders and Zerg build orders from each other used for the same effect.
"Macro while you macro all day every day"
MobiusOne
Profile Joined September 2010
United States106 Posts
January 27 2011 13:05 GMT
#9
You conveniently compare the early game of two expand builds, see some similarities in expansion timing and conclude from that that you can translate one build into the other!? What would be the point of this?


A speedling expand is great for maintaining map control and fending off early aggression. If your a T trying to solve these same problems you might look to a Z build order that has the same effect. How can a probe place a proxy pylon for a warpgate push if stimmed marines are out and about?

I wish people would actually read the post before posting : (
"Macro while you macro all day every day"
zatic
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
Zurich15365 Posts
January 27 2011 13:08 GMT
#10
On January 27 2011 22:02 MobiusOne wrote:
a 14 gas 14 pool can die to a a lot of common one base aggression builds from toss.. I don't understand your point. All I am trying to point out that you can create a lot of terran build orders and zerg build orders from each other used for the same effect.

Yeah and you could also create a lot of Terran build orders by comparing them to the 1943 Sicilian invasion. It still doesn't make any more sense.

If it helps you to be creative fine; And if you do arrive at a good and tested TvP build that way feel free to share it.
ModeratorI know Teamliquid is known as a massive building
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