EPTDoes zerg win and lose games the wrong way? - Page 3
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ibreakurface
United States664 Posts
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1Eris1
United States5797 Posts
Honestly I just feel like the zerg race is poorly designed overall, but hopefully it will get remodeled in HoTS | ||
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Icx
Belgium853 Posts
I suggest you go play terran or protoss and go deal with a flock of mutalisks. Or nydus worms when you move out, zerglings that run into your main/nat when you move out. Or even baneling drops. And yes things like that can be stopped, but you can also stop drops/banshees/etc, it's just how you manage to deal with it. I don't get what you want (ibreakurface, not the Op) you want zerg to be the best macro-race, and at the same time have the best harass ability's in the game, and all of that on all larger maps? Yes, that is gonna turn out well... | ||
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GT
Korea (South)141 Posts
what can you do if someone is just abusing their race by patrolling the edge of their base with marines/stalkers and a walloff? you cant zergling scout or overlord scout and they can kill you with 4-5 different openers that all require very different responses and you cant know which one to pick which just essentially gives you a 20-25% of guessing right. sure if you drone scouted you have a reference point to work from, (worker count, available chronoboosts, etc) but that right there isnt even a matter of unit balance its just a flat out flaw in the structure of the game. EDIT: I'd agree with a buff to overlord base speed or lowering ovie speed to t1. It's not that I can't deduce what one base they're doing when I can actually see it, its that i can never really see it against "good" players. | ||
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mattinthehat106
United States18 Posts
I do agree that it seems unfair that a T or P can just blindly one base and if they happen to push out its GG, but just saying it is unfair does nothing. you need to give constructive criticism, such as "Ovies are too slow and their speed should be buffed to make scouting more effective" or something like that | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On January 25 2011 09:22 Torumfroll wrote: Maybe because there are a lot more terran players than there are zerg and toss players? And why would that be if zerg is beating terran more? Although in GSL3 there were 3 more zergs then terran players and toss was at like 15 or something low. While I personally think tvz is fine on good maps I feel like zvp is insanely harder and I do feel like toss might be a little too strong in pvz but I could be wrong ^^ | ||
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Toxigen
United States390 Posts
The difference is that Zerg can't be successful NOT playing a macro-game (there's no Zerg equivalent to T & P strong 1-base pushes). But I do agree that Zerg harassment is there -- it's just not used. Be honest: when was the last time you researched drop tech? | ||
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ckw
United States1018 Posts
On January 25 2011 09:43 confusedcrib wrote: This post is very biased, I don't even know where to start. No one gets Overseers, together with overlord speed they are the best scout in the game, not observers. Zerg has the best ability to scout the front early on, let me just run my marine up and down the front of your map, oh wait. Close spawns forces good timings and making units, it means that you actually can't overdrone without the potential to be punished, it is not an instant loss, it is just hard; like how winning cross on metalopolis v zerg as anything else is hard but not impossible. Tl;DR Less QQ more pew pew Hey bro, I have a cool story for you; Overseers and Speed upgrade for ovies is T2 and by the time you get them you're roffle-stomped by a 4gate or banshee or 2 rax or anything else. | ||
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GT
Korea (South)141 Posts
On January 25 2011 09:59 Toxigen wrote: Who said Zerg was the best macro-race? Protoss macro is pretty beastly and Terrans aren't slouches when played in a macro-style either. The difference is that Zerg can't be successful NOT playing a macro-game (there's no Zerg equivalent to T & P strong 1-base pushes). But I do agree that Zerg harassment is there -- it's just not used. Be honest: when was the last time you researched drop tech? depends on the player, i research drop tech in probably 3 or 4 of every 20 games or so. On January 25 2011 09:43 confusedcrib wrote: This post is very biased, I don't even know where to start. No one gets Overseers, together with overlord speed they are the best scout in the game, not observers. Zerg has the best ability to scout the front early on, let me just run my marine up and down the front of your map, oh wait. Close spawns forces good timings and making units, it means that you actually can't overdrone without the potential to be punished, it is not an instant loss, it is just hard; like how winning cross on metalopolis v zerg as anything else is hard but not impossible. Tl;DR Less QQ more pew pew This post is absolutely retarded. Plenty of players get overseers including myself to contaminate robos etc., just saying they don't doesn't make it so. I get overlord speed in just about every macro ZvT and ZvP right after lair finishes so T/P players need to stop saying "X thing is underused". You act like T and P are using everything at their disposable to improve and Z players just sit in some cave moaning not actively trying to fix issues. Scout the ramp? Really? This is your solution to scouting issues? What if they, I don't know... build shit in the middle of their base far away from the ramp? And please, it doesn't have to be close positions to die from overdroning, it can happen pretty easily in any positions because Zerg as a race is extremely dependent on scouting for the mid/early game. | ||
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Icx
Belgium853 Posts
I advise you: Go look at some random diamond/master terran streams and go look how many actually die to the "economic" 2 base baneling bust. Or protoss'es trying to FE and dying to roach/ling allins. Or how many are really suffering from muta's. People should just realize that they should stop making excuses for their losses in balance. YES we aware that zerg has problems, YES the maps are completely retarded atm, but goddamn, play the game, deal with it, get better, wait for things to change around. But all this is just getting very, very tiresome, everytime there is an interview with Idra it's always about how zerg has problems, if you open a thread it's always the same thing over and over and over again. The Op is just things that are common knowledge at this point, he just made a very long post about it. Last thing I am gonna say: Go play the other 2 races for a good amount of games (untill you are around your old level, wich shouldn't be hard since everyone thinks T is so easy anyway). and then come back and compare them. And the allins/hidden tech/autolosses, it's not a zerg problem, it's a thing that the whole game suffers from. | ||
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Swede
New Zealand853 Posts
On January 25 2011 09:01 Bagi wrote: People like Idra can really pinpoint where the zerg race is having trouble. This felt like 5 pages of nonsensical rambling filled with assumptions and anecdotal evidence, picking at weaknesses that may or may not exist within the race. All topped off with pretentious writing and a sense of entitlement that the OP is actually better than the people he loses to. I get it, some zergs are frustrated... But come on. I agree with Bagi. Even though I agree with some of the Zerg-is-underpowered sentiments, this is too much complaining. If the OP really thinks that Zerg is THAT bad then he should change race, because no amount of balancing will satisfy a person like that. | ||
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avidday04
United States63 Posts
On January 25 2011 09:50 Pandain wrote: + Show Spoiler + Wow guys. This guy obviously puts alot of effort into this post, at least an hour if not more, giving a long, fleshed out explanation of a PARTICULAR problem he thought was a problem in the zerg race. He decided to devote a large portion of his time to writing a post on TL writing about why he feels there is an intrinsic problem within the zerg race as a whole, such as units not being good in all situations and the current ladder pool not fitting well with the zerg race. How about instead of just spouting "QQ MORE NUB" you guys actually respect this guy, that these are valid opinions that people can have, and he's not being disrespectful to you in the slightest? In response to the OP: 1.Part of what you are saying I feel is wrong. For example, you say "I can't scout" but alot of times you can. Overlord positioning is an art in itself, and you always have to be constantly scouting in order to adjust your army. Keep in mind that zerg is reactive/adaptive, not proactive. I do however agree that I feel there is less room for error for zerg than there is for terran. For example, lets say your initial push fails. You can still survive, remacro up, because of terran fortification of seige tanks/bunker. If zerg loses a battle, then (partly due to the maps) there just isn't enough time/innate defense to defend yourself. For example seige tanks are good even up to tier 3, but spine crawlers fail even against stim. Then you have expensive, fragile units that are a must to keep alive(mutas), that you always to be careful of. You even lose 5, that can cost you the game(as you need them to take out tanks/other stuff.) As to the maps, enough has been said on that. I think almost everyone is in agreement the maps need to be redone. Pandian, even if you were the only person to reply to my thread I would still feel it was worth writing. Thank you for addressing the worthless criticisms so I don't have to. ♥ It is not my goal for people to necessarily agree with me but if they disagree, in whole or in part, then please give more than one sentence saying why. To those who said I have a 'better than tho' attitude you are mistaken. I posted my rank and experience to give at least some credence to what I'm saying and because I'm not a regular poster for all anyone knows I could be in bronze with 100 games played. I'd also like to take the time to remind people what the main argument I'm trying to make is: Zerg is not only losing the wrong way but also winning the wrong way. Thanks to everyone who has posted so far and found this helpful. Also I appreciate everyone who recognizes the effort I put into this, weather you agree or not♥♥♥. It just blows my mind when people say it's too long! I always saw team liquid as a place to make long well thought out threads! Besides, I have a tl;dr at the bottom ^_^ | ||
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Spekulatius
Germany2413 Posts
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Schnullerbacke13
Germany1199 Posts
I think Z needs some "safe" openings, which are not that risky and allow to fend off early harras even when unscouted (e.g. preemptive 3rd/4th queen for anti air, some preemptive army). Still waiting for the game to evolve, currently most succesful pro Z players favor that risky hyperdroning, but possibly there we'll see different styles of Z play as the games evolves. For me Z does not feel UP, i just get the feeling when i watch pro games .. One additional reason for Z qq might be the fact, that playing Z forces a quite reactionary playstyle. A loss seems to feel harder if you fail to adapt/react and get killed. Loosing as the agressive part of a game just is not that depressing  | ||
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freeto
United States122 Posts
for example i totally agree that zerg is punished way more for a failed cheese than terran, however i disagree with the idea that theyre more punished than zerg. if a 4 gate fails its just as punishing as if a roach fails. in general 4 gate is more effective, but theyre both still fairly all in. the problem with terran is the combination of cheap, extremely effective units, those units costing little to no gas, mules, wall offs, and repair all allow terran to "all in" without actually all inning. 2 rax is of course the first example that comes to mind. if a terran 2 raxes, bringing say 5 scvs, and is completely shut down by the zerg the game is no where near close to over. in fact terran may be ahead because of the amount of lings zerg had to produce instead of drones to simply not die. not to mention terran can have expanded behind this 2 rax and just throw up a couple of free bunkers if zerg considers a counter. not to mention all of this is minerals, terran can 2 rax, expand, and bunker up to protect his expo without even making a geyser. all zerg and toss cheeses besides 6 pool and 2 gate proxy/cannon rush require gas and these are 100% all in. there is no way anyone should recover from a failed 2 gate proxy or 6 pool | ||
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Cyanocyst
2222 Posts
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Soulish
Canada1403 Posts
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PukinDog
United States131 Posts
You spent a lot of time on this, but I think the push-back is coming, because your arguments are poorly constructed. You establish a bunch of premises, but then you move on before proving them. If you cant prove a premise, then the premise stays false until you do. You say things like, "When Zerg smashes, say, a moderate Terran push often times a siege tank and a bunker is all he needs to get right back into the game.” Well, fine. PROVE IT. Did the Terran not bring all the tanks for the first engagement? What was Zerg doing while Terran was putting up the bunker? Why was Zerg unable to take out the SCV? Give data, be specific. Without evidence, it’s just conjecture. You do this throughout your post. You have a valid opinion, but for it to become a Resolved Conclusion, you have to back it up with more than personal experience, opinion, and apparent frustration. I am not saying you are wrong; you just haven’t proved that you are right. If you are a young dude, consider taking up debate. | ||
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Techno
1900 Posts
I think alot of this has to do with IMMVP's win against IMNestea on Shakuras. Yea, I thought he was fucked too; No I don't think there are balance implications. | ||
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gongryong
Korea (South)1430 Posts
 Read through it. Slightly more subdued version of the glorious TvP rant thread some time back. Agree with OP in most parts, and i think:1. Nydus tech should be buffed 2. Ultras should be reduced in size or have some sort of ability for better pathfinding and spacing 3. Make Overlord initial speed faster since they not autodetectors anymore 4. If OP feels so bad about balance in sc2, there is still that EPIC AWESOME game called SC:BW! | ||
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